"Shawn" wrote in message
om...
This is really a no-brainer to me, but then I'm coming from the
professional musician's viewpoint not the professional (or
un-professional as the case may be) club owner perspective.
Will this kind of approach/limitation/demand limit the clubs we can
play in?
Is this that common?

We play a lot of bars and events that are already open at load in time
and either allow no sound check or only a very minimal sound check. As a
result, we've gotten very good at guessing, since we know our gear and our
band, so we have a pretty good idea of where things should start. Then we
use the first few songs to tweak. If we're worried about it, we'll push a
few 3 piece songs to the front of the set list so that there is less to
worry about at first, and more parts are added in after a good baseline is
set with the guitar bass and drums. I can't give you anything as useful as
George's reply, and I wouldn't be able to do it nearly as well if I were
mixing different bands every night. We *always* do a signal check on every
channel before start time, to make sure that everything is at least present
in the mix, and then play it by ear once the set starts.

I much prefer a sound check, but unfortunately it's not on many venue
owner's priority lists.

ryanm

"Shawn" wrote in message
om...

I disagree. No we're not perfect and we have a lot of work to do
getting to know our pa as well as our own individual instruments but
we played that gig Friday night for $500.00 for the band, performed
well enough that the agent was impressed and booked us for other gigs
(regardless of sound issues), we had the dance floor and the room we
were in full the entire night...

You were robbed, the Cool River here in Dallas pays $1500 for a 4 hour
gig, and we're far from the highest paid band in the rotation (we're not
even a horn band). However, we do play $500 gigs too, and we carry our own
PA to them. At $500, after 10% to the band fund and taxes, 10% to the
manager (plus 10% to an agent if one booked the gig), that's only about $60
per person (there are 6 of us), and that's hardly enough to cover gas, my
bar tab, and Whataburger on the way home.

You need a manager (even if it's an unpaid friend or band member) who
can spend some time checking out what other bands make in these venues and
get you fairly compensated. Many musicians say they'll never use a manager
or agents because they don't want someone taking part of their money, but do
the math. Right now you're making $500 total. With a manager with a bit of
business sense you could be playing the very same gig for double or more
than what you are making now, so even after the manager and agent take their
cut, you would still be getting more money per band member than you are now.
As long as your cut goes up, do you really care how much an agent or manager
are taking off the top? We both hired a manager and started using agents,
and our pay has steadily increased and our venues have gotten steadily
better and better. In the past few months we've opened for several has-been
bands (The Georgia Satallites last month) for good sized crowds and
significantly better pay than the bars we were playing this time last year.

The Cool River here is also what I would call "swanky", and we don't get
booked there regularly because they're usually looking for 70's disco, which
we don't do. They draw a high-class crowd with lots of money to spend, and
can afford to pay bands well. If you can book in those venues your pay
should reflect it. Find someone you trust to do their homework and not rob
you blind, and pay him a cut to do the legwork.

ryanm

"Shawn" wrote in message
om...
Yes, I know that sometimes we all have to deal with people who have no
common sense,

You mean bar owners? ;-)

ryanm

The producers of the festivals hire a separate crew to do all the DAT stuff,
FOH engineers just send signal to them and a person sits with headphone all
day to monitor the recording and changes tape when it is time( pauses
between acts).
As far as musicians showing up with crap gear, happens all the time and you
deal with it as fast as possible ( I have had to troubleshoot too much gear
that I was not getting paid to fix, but the set happened great and even get
calls back from bands to mix for, at my price per show)


"Pat Janes" wrote in message
...
In article et,
"Barney Kable" wrote:

All the festivals I work, LINE CHECKS ARE MANDATORY!!!!!!!!
Every act is taped to DAT for archive purposes

I don't miss DAT recorders. I have a Tascam DA30 mkII that's gathering
dust. I've just finished transferring tracks from a pair of Masterlinks
that were used to record a festival. Max capacity of 35 hours per unit
at 24 bit/44.1. Recording at 24 bit lets you be more conservative about
record levels, plus you never have to remember to change a tape. The
only thing to watch with a Masterlink is the danger of a power cut while
recording, and a UPS solves that.

and all channels must be
there from the start ( no humms, buzzes or miss patches) and yes mics
and
cables do go bad in the middle of a long day.

Not to mention the musicians who show up with dodgy instruments and then
insist that the problem has GOT to be with the sound system.

On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 04:06:19 GMT, "Barney Kable"
wrote:

All the festivals I work, LINE CHECKS ARE MANDATORY!!!!!!!!
Every act is taped to DAT for archive purposes and all channels must be
there from the start ( no humms, buzzes or miss patches) and yes mics and
cables do go bad in the middle of a long day.

I wonder what these "Archive purposes" are? You get this a lot in
theatres. You question a video camera. "Just for the archives!"
they gaily say.

So, what are they going to do with it? "Oh - nothing at all! Just
for the archives!" Fine. If it's going to be of no use to you,
don't make it. If it is going to have a use, tell me what for and
we'll negotiate a price for extending a live gig into a recording
session.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

In article writes:

wrote:

All the festivals I work, LINE CHECKS ARE MANDATORY!!!!!!!!
Every act is taped to DAT for archive purposes

So, what are they going to do with it? "Oh - nothing at all! Just
for the archives!" Fine. If it's going to be of no use to you,
don't make it. If it is going to have a use, tell me what for and
we'll negotiate a price for extending a live gig into a recording
session.

At the festivals I work - traditional folk music festivals (maybe the
same ones Barney works - I don't recognize the on-line name), the
archives are indeed archived. Analog tape and DAT is being transferred
to CD, logs are checked and corrected (and put in word processor
format) and occasionally people come in and use them for research -
either when studying a particular song or singer, or style or ethnic
group. Sometimes they're even used on commercial recordings or
broadcast.

It's standard policy to get a recording release from the performers.
Any use other than archival (such as commercial release or broadcast)
is always with additional permission from the artist or (as is sadly
the case too often) their heirs or estate.

Quality of course varies from blah to good depending on the stage
setup, the wind, the person mixing, and the attention paid to the
recording. On occasion (usually a "main" concert) special effort will
be taken with a recording - an independent mix from a mic split or
these days more likely a multitrack recording to be mixed later, but
most of the time it's mono out of the PA console. More often than not,
there's a volunteer to log the performance, start the recording,
change tapes, and keep an eye on the record level so as not to divert
the attention to the person doing the mixing. After all, the show is
for the audience attending the festival, not just so you can make a
recording.

The "recordist" rarely has any specialized training or experience and
we often have to show him or her where the Record button is and how to
load tape. (tape is almost always the original medium) With DAT, I
recommend just leaving it run between sets because changeover time, at
least for daily performances, is usually limited to about 5 minutes,
and it's too easy to stop the tape, run out for a quick pee, and miss
the first song or two.

Nobody gets blamed if a recording isn't of commercial quality, but we
try to make sure that at least the equipment is working right and that
the people doing the mixing are competent at the simple tasks we give
them. But you know how it is with volunteer or low-paid help. Only MTV
can afford to bring in a remote truck and full crew.

Oh, and the recordist doesn't get a sound check either.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

On 2 Sep 2004 13:10:21 -0400, Mike Rivers wrote:

In article
writes:

wrote:

All the festivals I work, LINE CHECKS ARE MANDATORY!!!!!!!!
Every act is taped to DAT for archive purposes

So, what are they going to do with it? "Oh - nothing at all! Just
for the archives!" Fine. If it's going to be of no use to you,
don't make it. If it is going to have a use, tell me what for and
we'll negotiate a price for extending a live gig into a recording
session.

At the festivals I work - traditional folk music festivals (maybe the
same ones Barney works - I don't recognize the on-line name), the
archives are indeed archived. Analog tape and DAT is being transferred
to CD, logs are checked and corrected (and put in word processor
format) and occasionally people come in and use them for research -
either when studying a particular song or singer, or style or ethnic
group. Sometimes they're even used on commercial recordings or
broadcast.


Is there anyone here who knows anything about the "Live to 2-track" Joe
Jackson shows in NYC? Sometime in the '80s or early '90s . . . Someone
who was there told me it was much like a TV taping, with perhaps twenty
minutes of tweaking onstage between songs, followed by one or two takes
where the audience was encouraged to applaud by a floor runner.

Dear Sir,
All the music is archived for the purpose of being able to
let student of music history and music style write thesis papers for Masters
Degrees and research the many style of music associated with an
instrument( how many style of playing Guitar are there????? or who invented
the fret board for the guitar????), for more information about these
programs look up the NCTA ( National Council for the Traditional Arts).

Barney Kable



"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 04:06:19 GMT, "Barney Kable"
wrote:

All the festivals I work, LINE CHECKS ARE
MANDATORY!!!!!!!!
Every act is taped to DAT for archive purposes and all channels must be
there from the start ( no humms, buzzes or miss patches) and yes mics and
cables do go bad in the middle of a long day.

I wonder what these "Archive purposes" are? You get this a lot in
theatres. You question a video camera. "Just for the archives!"
they gaily say.

So, what are they going to do with it? "Oh - nothing at all! Just
for the archives!" Fine. If it's going to be of no use to you,
don't make it. If it is going to have a use, tell me what for and
we'll negotiate a price for extending a live gig into a recording
session.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

In article vMIZc.3880$3Q5.2900@trndny06 writes:

Is there anyone here who knows anything about the "Live to 2-track" Joe
Jackson shows in NYC? Sometime in the '80s or early '90s . . . Someone
who was there told me it was much like a TV taping, with perhaps twenty
minutes of tweaking onstage between songs, followed by one or two takes
where the audience was encouraged to applaud by a floor runner.

I have the Joe Jackson "Big World" CD which was recorded straight to
2-track. The notes say:

This record, however, was made in three days. ALthough we did prepare
for it in rehearsals and sixteen club gigs, several of these also
served as the trial runs for the producer and engineer outside in a
mobile recording truck. As the band played, they practiced getting the
right sounds, balances, and echo effects for each song, that is,
translating what the audiences were hearing onto tape. In a way, that
makes this album probalby the first to be mixed before it was
recorded.

The final live recordings were made direct to two-trackk digital
master, and since no overdubbing or mixing were possible after the
event, what you hear is an exact reproduction of the performances
which took place. To help us in trying to make something superior to a
typical live recording, the audience was asked to keep as quiet as
possible and to hold applause until songs were abosluetely finished.
However, we believe their presence is reflected in performances more
spontaneous and committed than what is normally possible in a studio.

Recordings were at the Roundabout Theater East in New York on January
23, 24, and 25 except for one song which was a recording of a
rehearsal on January 22. The notes don't say what year, but the
copyright date on the disk and liner notes is 1986.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

On 2 Sep 2004 20:40:22 -0400, Mike Rivers wrote:

In article vMIZc.3880$3Q5.2900@trndny06 writes:

Is there anyone here who knows anything about the "Live to 2-track" Joe
Jackson shows in NYC? Sometime in the '80s or early '90s . . . Someone
who was there told me it was much like a TV taping, with perhaps twenty
minutes of tweaking onstage between songs, followed by one or two takes
where the audience was encouraged to applaud by a floor runner.

I have the Joe Jackson "Big World" CD which was recorded straight to
2-track. The notes say:


Ah . that's the one. Thanx.

"Saxology" wrote in message
news
What I think we have here is an ugly, frustrated drummer who can't get a
girlfriend. That is why he never sees the drummer's girlfriend at the
gig!

Anyone else ever see the squeeze from the last gig at the current show?
This guy has never seen this. So, we know that a one nighter would be his
longest relationship.

I think he has a right to be angry.... but not at us!
-Sax


Old joke;

What do you call a drummer without a girlfriend?

Homeless. g

Joe L

"Saxology" wrote in message
news
What I think we have here is an ugly, frustrated drummer who can't get a
girlfriend. That is why he never sees the drummer's girlfriend at the
gig!

Anyone else ever see the squeeze from the last gig at the current show?
This guy has never seen this. So, we know that a one nighter would be his
longest relationship.

I think he has a right to be angry.... but not at us!
-Sax


Old joke;

What do you call a drummer without a girlfriend?

Homeless. g

Joe L

"George" wrote in message
...

Most gigs we are set up and soundchecked way before the place opens
though, that really is the only professional way. If it's a venue that
knows anything about live music there will be a schedule for all bands
soundchecks so support bands etc are ready too.



what bugs me much worse than no soundcheck is after the show , the clubs
patrons are gone yet to barbacks blast the house PA at full tilt with
thier favorite "music" for just the three of them to "enjoy"
George

Earplugs George, I use the westone so I can still converse when I need to.
Saved me many times. But nothing like blasting tunes after the gig, geez.

Joe L

"George" wrote in message
...

Most gigs we are set up and soundchecked way before the place opens
though, that really is the only professional way. If it's a venue that
knows anything about live music there will be a schedule for all bands
soundchecks so support bands etc are ready too.



what bugs me much worse than no soundcheck is after the show , the clubs
patrons are gone yet to barbacks blast the house PA at full tilt with
thier favorite "music" for just the three of them to "enjoy"
George

Earplugs George, I use the westone so I can still converse when I need to.
Saved me many times. But nothing like blasting tunes after the gig, geez.

Joe L

In article 0VJ_c.321133$J06.309317@pd7tw2no, "Joe L"
wrote:

"George" wrote in message
...

Most gigs we are set up and soundchecked way before the place opens
though, that really is the only professional way. If it's a venue that
knows anything about live music there will be a schedule for all bands
soundchecks so support bands etc are ready too.



what bugs me much worse than no soundcheck is after the show , the clubs
patrons are gone yet to barbacks blast the house PA at full tilt with
thier favorite "music" for just the three of them to "enjoy"
George

Earplugs George, I use the westone so I can still converse when I need to.
Saved me many times. But nothing like blasting tunes after the gig, geez.

Joe L



I got the plugs and they help but it is just a rude way to end the night
G

In article 0VJ_c.321133$J06.309317@pd7tw2no, "Joe L"
wrote:

"George" wrote in message
...

Most gigs we are set up and soundchecked way before the place opens
though, that really is the only professional way. If it's a venue that
knows anything about live music there will be a schedule for all bands
soundchecks so support bands etc are ready too.



what bugs me much worse than no soundcheck is after the show , the clubs
patrons are gone yet to barbacks blast the house PA at full tilt with
thier favorite "music" for just the three of them to "enjoy"
George

Earplugs George, I use the westone so I can still converse when I need to.
Saved me many times. But nothing like blasting tunes after the gig, geez.

Joe L



I got the plugs and they help but it is just a rude way to end the night
G

wrote in message
t...

On 2004-09-05 said:
what bugs me much worse than no soundcheck is after the show ,
the clubs patrons are gone yet to barbacks blast the house PA
at full tilt with thier favorite "music" for just the three of
them to "enjoy" George
Earplugs George, I use the westone so I can still converse when I
need to. Saved me many times. But nothing like blasting tunes
after the gig, geez.
Joe L
I got the plugs and they help but it is just a rude way to end the
night G

I think it's rather rude myself. AFter I've been bombarded with loud
I'd like to be able to communicate with people while I'm packing up
and loading the truck. I also like to listen to as close to silence
as I can get to let my ears recover a bit thank you very much.



Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email


I hear ya. I got a new cd player w/ mp3 in the van and I barely turn it on.
Maybe a little talk radio after a while if it's a longer drive just to keep
me alert. But silence after the gig is real important.

Joe L

wrote in message
t...

On 2004-09-05 said:
what bugs me much worse than no soundcheck is after the show ,
the clubs patrons are gone yet to barbacks blast the house PA
at full tilt with thier favorite "music" for just the three of
them to "enjoy" George
Earplugs George, I use the westone so I can still converse when I
need to. Saved me many times. But nothing like blasting tunes
after the gig, geez.
Joe L
I got the plugs and they help but it is just a rude way to end the
night G

I think it's rather rude myself. AFter I've been bombarded with loud
I'd like to be able to communicate with people while I'm packing up
and loading the truck. I also like to listen to as close to silence
as I can get to let my ears recover a bit thank you very much.



Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email


I hear ya. I got a new cd player w/ mp3 in the van and I barely turn it on.
Maybe a little talk radio after a while if it's a longer drive just to keep
me alert. But silence after the gig is real important.

Joe L

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On 2004-09-05 said:
what bugs me much worse than no soundcheck is after the show ,
the clubs patrons are gone yet to barbacks blast the house PA
at full tilt with thier favorite "music" for just the three of
them to "enjoy" George
Earplugs George, I use the westone so I can still converse when I
need to. Saved me many times. But nothing like blasting tunes
after the gig, geez.
Joe L
I got the plugs and they help but it is just a rude way to end the
night G

I think it's rather rude myself. AFter I've been bombarded with loud
I'd like to be able to communicate with people while I'm packing up
and loading the truck. I also like to listen to as close to silence
as I can get to let my ears recover a bit thank you very much.



Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 22:21:46 EDT
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 02:21:46 GMT
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com alt.audio.pro.live-sound:136390 rec.audio.pro:1104636


On 2004-09-05 said:
what bugs me much worse than no soundcheck is after the show ,
the clubs patrons are gone yet to barbacks blast the house PA
at full tilt with thier favorite "music" for just the three of
them to "enjoy" George
Earplugs George, I use the westone so I can still converse when I
need to. Saved me many times. But nothing like blasting tunes
after the gig, geez.
Joe L
I got the plugs and they help but it is just a rude way to end the
night G

I think it's rather rude myself. AFter I've been bombarded with loud
I'd like to be able to communicate with people while I'm packing up
and loading the truck. I also like to listen to as close to silence
as I can get to let my ears recover a bit thank you very much.



Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--