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Minimal micing suggestions for drum kit
Hello. I would appreciate suggestions and advice. I am recording a
drum kit for a session of blues/vintage rock. The room is fairly well padded and dead. The drummer is good and gets a balanced sound. I would like to use as few mics as possible, as I have only a limited number of tracks available (two to four tracks, given the song). Here is my available equipment: 2 Beyer M160's; 2 Seinheisser 421's; 2 AT 4050's. I have a 2-channel tube pre-amp/compressor (custom made with a warm, fat sound) and a 2-channel Focusrite Red 8 pre-amp. I had thought of placing the M160's in front of and slightly above the toms, and seeing if that would suffice for the whole kit. If need be, I would add one 421 for the kick and one for the snare. What would your recipe be? I really appreciate the expert knowledge/advice I get here. Thanks! Gid |
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#2
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You can make great recordings with 2 mics on the drums. My starting
location for doing that is right where you mentioned. I go about 2-3 feet out in a stereo pair "looking" at the snare over the toms. If you get the position right, you don't even need a kick mic. When doing this, I usually use a good stereo mic. Usually my AKG 426, but I also use Neumann SM-69/23, AKG C-34 or even the Shure VP-88 (mid side can really help dig out the snare). I'd probably start with your condensers to get the sound. For some rock stuff, though, you may find that you will do well by having a kick mic, though... For jazz, you won't need anything else. For the vintage sound you're looking for, listen and see- I could see it going both ways. You likely won't need a snare mic with this setup. --Ben -- Benjamin Maas Fifth Circle Audio Los Angeles, CA http://www.fifthcircle.com Please remove "Nospam" from address for replies "Gid Tanner" wrote in message ... Hello. I would appreciate suggestions and advice. I am recording a drum kit for a session of blues/vintage rock. The room is fairly well padded and dead. The drummer is good and gets a balanced sound. I would like to use as few mics as possible, as I have only a limited number of tracks available (two to four tracks, given the song). Here is my available equipment: 2 Beyer M160's; 2 Seinheisser 421's; 2 AT 4050's. I have a 2-channel tube pre-amp/compressor (custom made with a warm, fat sound) and a 2-channel Focusrite Red 8 pre-amp. I had thought of placing the M160's in front of and slightly above the toms, and seeing if that would suffice for the whole kit. If need be, I would add one 421 for the kick and one for the snare. What would your recipe be? I really appreciate the expert knowledge/advice I get here. Thanks! Gid |
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#3
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"Gid Tanner" wrote in message
om... Hello. I would appreciate suggestions and advice. I am recording a drum kit for a session of blues/vintage rock. The room is fairly well padded and dead. The drummer is good and gets a balanced sound. I would like to use as few mics as possible, as I have only a limited number of tracks available (two to four tracks, given the song). Here is my available equipment: 2 Beyer M160's; 2 Seinheisser 421's; 2 AT 4050's. I have a 2-channel tube pre-amp/compressor (custom made with a warm, fat sound) and a 2-channel Focusrite Red 8 pre-amp. I had thought of placing the M160's in front of and slightly above the toms, and seeing if that would suffice for the whole kit. If need be, I would add one 421 for the kick and one for the snare. I'd go with that, except I think I'd put the M160s up higher. Oh, and I'd use them in near-XY configuration, which is like XY except that the left-pointing mike is slid a little to the left and the right-pointing mike is slid a little to the right, so there's clearance for the balls. (There's a good straight line for you.) With hypercardioids, I'd use a 90 degree angle instead of the usual 110. Oh, and I'd use the Focusrite pre for the M160s. If you need to save a track, you may be able to do without the 421 on the snare. Peace, Paul |
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#6
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(Gid Tanner) wrote in message . com...
Hello. I would appreciate suggestions and advice. I am recording a drum kit for a session of blues/vintage rock. The room is fairly well padded and dead. The drummer is good and gets a balanced sound. I would like to use as few mics as possible, as I have only a limited number of tracks available (two to four tracks, given the song). Here is my available equipment: 2 Beyer M160's; 2 Seinheisser 421's; 2 AT 4050's. I have a 2-channel tube pre-amp/compressor (custom made with a warm, fat sound) and a 2-channel Focusrite Red 8 pre-amp. I had thought of placing the M160's in front of and slightly above the toms, and seeing if that would suffice for the whole kit. If need be, I would add one 421 for the kick and one for the snare. What would your recipe be? I really appreciate the expert knowledge/advice I get here. Thanks! Gid I toured with a jazz big band for several years, and also did some recordings with them, and my goal was the same: use few mics and "capture" the sound of the kit. Here's what I would suggest based on the mics you have: Kick - MD421 with the rotary switch set to one click off "M", and make up the LF at the console. Sounds punchier that way than fully on "M" IMO. Overheads - The two 4050s should work well. I'd place one of them straight over the snare and about 4 ft. above it, and the other one to the drummer's right, looking over the floor tom back over to the snare. These two mics should be EXACTLY the same distance from the center of the snare drum. By varying the height of that 2nd overhead mic (the one by the floor tom) you can balance the floor tom with the rest of the kit. But again, be certain that it is the same distance from the snare as the other one. With these three mics, you should get a really good "open" kit sound. Now, you may need to use another mic or two depending on the kit. Maybe for snare, depending on how "close miked" you want it to sound. Maybe for hi hat, ditto. Have fun. Karl Winkler Lectrosonics, Inc. http://www.lectrosonics.com |
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#7
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I've had good luck recently close micing the kick and snare plus a
single mono overhead mic, This is how I do a lot of my live concert recording. Stereo is pretty overrated for drum overheads, IMO. And with this arrangement I find I can get by with very little of the snare & kick mics. Scott Fraser |
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#8
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#9
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using what you have, put your "money" mics and pres on the stereo
overhead. A quick guess at this would be the 4050s into the Focusrite 8. or the Beyers into the Focusrite. The 421 can work on a kick. So that's three tracks. If you want a 4th track, just stick the Beyer somewhere casual like 6-8 feet out in front of the kit. you might be able to blend it in the mix and add some mojo. if the drummer plays evenly like you said, you should be able to get a very good sound with the 2-overheads, one-kick mic setup. just put a compressor over the whole drum buss during mixing. it will suck it all up and make it big sounding and add some more room presence. you should be fine with what you have. |
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#10
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(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1093368030k@trad...
In article writes: Hello. I would appreciate suggestions and advice. I am recording a drum kit for a session of blues/vintage rock. Gid Tanner didn't use drums and play vintage rock. What did you do with the real Gid Tanner? Well, I traded my fiddle for an electric guitar and told the other Skillet Lickers to hit the road! Gid |
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#11
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I dare you guys to come up with the perfect single mic & position for a
blues/rock drum set up. :-P Skler |
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#12
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It's enjoyable to read people's drum mic ideas, since I'm still trying to
figure mine out, having had limited experience. So far I like "over head" mics placed right behind the drummer so they're looking at the edge of the cymbals instead of seeing the tops of the cymbals. Also, I like spacing the mics closer than most people, but definitely not an XY configuration; to me that's too close and doesn't offer much of a stereo image, but the typical three or four feet apart (or more) I see when people are simply using over heads to augment all their zillions of other mics on a kit is way too far apart to my ears, especially when you're using a stereo pair that will be more prominent in the mix. You could go for a vintage 60's - early 70's style, heh heh... with drums popping out of one side of your mix along with bass guitar or something like that. It actually sounds kind of cool context, with instrumentation conducive to that kind of thing. I've heard some 4 track and little hard disk portastudio recorders where drums were recorded with 1 room mic and some of them sound great! That kind of approach can really work well but in that case the room acoustics and quality of the drum kit sound are pretty important to begin with since you can't control it as much by juggling EQs, gates, effects & levels on individual tracks. I would guess that most of the really amazing drum mixes I've heard involve a great many microphones and some real experience behind tuning the kit, playing it of course, selecting mics & placing them. Lots O mics are the norm. Kick mic, snare mic & one over head mic can be a fun experiment to try. You might be surprised. Large diaphragm condensers are really amazing for kick... Overheads don't have to have super high end response if you're planning on using any artificial ambiance or reverberation at all. With three mics you could center kick, pan snare a bit & then pan a single overhead a bit to the opposite side of the snare. Don't be afraid to be different or feel compelled to do what everyone else is doing. Experiment. Mixing can be as creative as song writing or anything else if you want it to be & you don't have to be complicated to be creative. Skler ScotFraser wrote in message ... I've had good luck recently close micing the kick and snare plus a single mono overhead mic, This is how I do a lot of my live concert recording. Stereo is pretty overrated for drum overheads, IMO. And with this arrangement I find I can get by with very little of the snare & kick mics. Scott Fraser |
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#13
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I dare you guys to come up with the perfect single mic & position for a
blues/rock drum set up. Any decent single mic in the position Ben described for his AKG 426. No big deal. Done it lots of times. Scott Fraser |
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#14
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#15
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On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:03:29 -0500, "Cerion"
wrote: With three mics you could center kick, pan snare a bit & then pan a single overhead a bit to the opposite side of the snare. Wouldn't this kind of blur the snare hit? I've heard of guys getting good rock n roll sounds hanging a single cheap omni over the drummer's head... depends on the room of course. |
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#16
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On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:45:04 -0500, "Cerion"
wrote: I dare you guys to come up with the perfect single mic & position for a blues/rock drum set up. :-P That would be impossible without actually being in the room... but it's very doable given enought time to experiment. |
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#17
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How should one pan those two mices? Centered while recording (to one track)
or after recording (recording to two tracks)? And what''ll happen to the kick, because the 2 mices cannot be equidistant to both snare AND kick....or? thanks for your answer,regards, Bob "Karl Winkler" schreef in bericht om... Overheads - The two 4050s should work well. I'd place one of them straight over the snare and about 4 ft. above it, and the other one to the drummer's right, looking over the floor tom back over to the snare. These two mics should be EXACTLY the same distance from the center of the snare drum. By varying the height of that 2nd overhead mic (the one by the floor tom) you can balance the floor tom with the rest of the kit. But again, be certain that it is the same distance from the snare as the other one. With these three mics, you should get a really good "open" kit sound. Now, you may need to use another mic or two depending on the kit. Maybe for snare, depending on how "close miked" you want it to sound. Maybe for hi hat, ditto. Have fun. Karl Winkler Lectrosonics, Inc. http://www.lectrosonics.com |
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#18
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In article ,
"Cerion" wrote: I dare you guys to come up with the perfect single mic & position for a blues/rock drum set up. :-P Skler what about Useable and acceptable, this I can do but nothing is perfect George |
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#19
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Cerion wrote:
I dare you guys to come up with the perfect single mic & position for a blues/rock drum set up. :-P Easily done. Providing you bring the perfect drummer. Most muli-mic'ing and processing is done to make up for inadequate musicianship, poor room quality and amateur equipment. You give me John Bonham in a good sounding room on a set of Canwoods and it's easy. In fact, I probably don't have to be very good to hold up my end of the bargain. Rob R. |
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#20
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"Bob" wrote in message ...
How should one pan those two mices? Centered while recording (to one track) or after recording (recording to two tracks)? And what''ll happen to the kick, because the 2 mices cannot be equidistant to both snare AND kick....or? thanks for your answer,regards, Bob Good questions. The two overhead mics should be recorded on separate tracks, and then panned left and right (depending on whether you want drummer's perspective or audience perspective). It's not as important (IMO) to have the OH mics equidistant to the kick, partially because it's such a large instrument. By having a separate mic on it, and panning it center, the ear will hear the kick coming from the center. Karl Winkler Lectrosonics, Inc. http://www.lectrosonics.com |
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#21
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#22
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Cerion wrote:
I dare you guys to come up with the perfect single mic & position for a blues/rock drum set up. :-P For any given drum set up, room, song, arrangement, and mix, there is one perfect single mike and position... --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#23
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#24
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#25
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not true at all.
what if you want to have a big reverb on the snare, but the kick completely dry? what if you want to have the toms do a dramatic stereo pan during a fill, with the hi toms gated, the low toms open, and have the snare with huge reverb and be able to eq the kick differently, apply compression to the kick, and have the kick be completely dry? the truth is that more mics give you more mixing options. that's not always what you need. but when you need it, there is no substitute for the discrete mixing options that a multi-miced setup will give you. it's a nice thought to think that a singe cubic inch spot with a mono or stereo mic can capture whatever you want depending on where you place the mic. but it has nothing to do with reality. unless your reality consists entirely of easy-listening and old big band music. |
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#26
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playon playonATcomcast.net wrote in message . ..
On 25 Aug 2004 07:04:42 -0700, (Karl Winkler) wrote: "Bob" wrote in message ... How should one pan those two mices? Centered while recording (to one track) or after recording (recording to two tracks)? And what''ll happen to the kick, because the 2 mices cannot be equidistant to both snare AND kick....or? thanks for your answer,regards, Bob Good questions. The two overhead mics should be recorded on separate tracks, and then panned left and right (depending on whether you want drummer's perspective or audience perspective). It's not as important (IMO) to have the OH mics equidistant to the kick, partially because it's such a large instrument. By having a separate mic on it, and panning it center, the ear will hear the kick coming from the center. And you don't have to pan them to extremes if you want a more focused sound. Al But you do have to be mindful of the phasing with the cymbals, since anything but hard left and right panning will result in some summing to mono of the two inputs. Karl Winkler Lectrosonics, Inc. http://www.lectrosonics.com |
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#27
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But you do have to be mindful of the phasing with the cymbals, since
anything but hard left and right panning will result in some summing to mono of the two inputs. Of course you'll also get summing of hard panned signals as soon as they emerge from speakers into a listening environment, but that's another thread. Scott Fraser |
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#28
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it's a nice thought to think that a singe cubic inch spot with a mono
or stereo mic can capture whatever you want depending on where you place the mic. but it has nothing to do with reality. Actually it has everything to do with reality, while multimiking has everything to do with unreality, no matter how sonically pleasing that unreality may be. unless your reality consists entirely of easy-listening and old big band music. And about 40 or 50 other genres & tastes besides easy listening & old big band. Scott Fraser |
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#29
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#30
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xy wrote:
not true at all. what if you want to have a big reverb on the snare, but the kick completely dry? what if you want to have the toms do a dramatic stereo pan during a fill, with the hi toms gated, the low toms open, and have the snare with huge reverb and be able to eq the kick differently, apply compression to the kick, and have the kick be completely dry? Then you need to build a time-machine because you are trapped in the eighties. Just kidding...because the truth is that more mics give you more mixing options. that's not always what you need. but when you need it, there is no substitute for the discrete mixing options that a multi-miced setup will give you. I actually like the really tight mic'ing of the 70s in certain songs. it's a nice thought to think that a singe cubic inch spot with a mono or stereo mic can capture whatever you want depending on where you place the mic. but it has nothing to do with reality. unless your reality consists entirely of easy-listening and old big band music. No way. You can go way beyond those types of music. But it still comes down to the reality that I rarely get to record in a good enough situation where I caould put just one mic on the kit. Rob R. |
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#31
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In article ,
playon playonATcomcast.net wrote: On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:03:29 -0500, "Cerion" wrote: With three mics you could center kick, pan snare a bit & then pan a single overhead a bit to the opposite side of the snare. Wouldn't this kind of blur the snare hit? Yeah... it makes more room for the vocals. Some of the 70s drum sounds are really smeary and wide and it clears out a wide path up the middle for the vocals and solos to fit. The later 70s Elton John stuff and Who stuff are good examples of this... Regards, Monte McGuire |
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#32
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In article ,
"Bob" wrote: How should one pan those two mices? Centered while recording (to one track) or after recording (recording to two tracks)? And what''ll happen to the kick, because the 2 mices cannot be equidistant to both snare AND kick....or? Actually, imagine a line between the two drums and place the two mikes perpendicular to this line at equal distance. This positioning could work with the 'close to the floor tom' and the 'over the snare' mike positions. There are lots and lots of places where two mikes could be placed equidistant to any two drums. The problem is that with most drum kits, the third and fourth drums probably won't also be equidistant to these mikes, and will probably end up much closer to only one of the mikes. It's a tradeoff. Regards, Monte McGuire |
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#33
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cheers Karl!
Bob Good questions. The two overhead mics should be recorded on separate tracks, and then panned left and right (depending on whether you want drummer's perspective or audience perspective). It's not as important (IMO) to have the OH mics equidistant to the kick, partially because it's such a large instrument. By having a separate mic on it, and panning it center, the ear will hear the kick coming from the center. Karl Winkler Lectrosonics, Inc. http://www.lectrosonics.com |
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#34
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I dare you guys to come up with the perfect single mic & position for a blues/rock drum set up. :-P what about Useable and acceptable, this I can do but nothing is perfect George :-) |
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#35
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Lines: 37
Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: X-Abuse-Info: Please forward a copy of all headers for proper handling X-Trace: npbhgpngjbkmjfegdbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcbogo bjepkjfaahincopeiphjjefhhdbmabchgllpafgbanfgjeekkj flfncmkmngeiddbopkngmkcnfhaplpneoofdopeecgojocmfon nmgepbohnk NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:35:12 EDT Organization: BellSouth Internet Service Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 01:35:12 GMT Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1101362 On 2004-08-24 (xy) said: using what you have, put your "money" mics and pres on the stereo overhead. if the drummer plays evenly like you said, you should be able to get a very good sound with the 2-overheads, one-kick mic setup. just put a compressor over the whole drum buss during mixing. it will suck it all up and make it big sounding and add some more room presence. you should be fine with what you have. DId a session with a pair of sm-81's and the 41 that way using the RNC a few years back. The 3 mics to stereo and a bit of compression to pull it all out there works well for me if the drummer is truly a good player and the room's reasonable at all. WAs what we had and I thought we got a nice drum sound. DOn't ask me what the settings were for the compressor. I tweaked the knobs until I got a good sound on the drums for the individual songs, mostly didn't have to touch the compressor once I got a good full kit sound. Once it sounded good, hit record. WIshed I could have sent that one in for the last R.A.P. disk but we had artists that were anal about copyrights and permissions. GOt permission from one but couldn't from the other and it was a partners' deal, so without both people saying go ahead I couldn't send it in. BUmmer. Richard Webb, Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La. REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email -- |
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