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#1
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M-Audio: Audiphile 2496 or Delta-44
Hello, I am about to buy a sound card and trying to make a decision
between the 2. Is there any difference in sound quality from them. I am aware that the 2496 has only 2 inputs, but its has midi and digital .. That's good enough for me, I don't need 4 inputs and outputs. I also have a pre-amp so i don't really need an outside box like in delta (if that helps). I am mainly interested in the sound quality. Does anyone know if the delta is better in sound quality. Quick response will be greatly appreciated cause I am about to buy one as soon as i can (today). Thanks. |
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#2
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"chowdhury" wrote in message
Hello, I am about to buy a sound card and trying to make a decision between the 2. Is there any difference in sound quality from them. I am aware that the 2496 has only 2 inputs, but its has midi and digital . That's good enough for me, I don't need 4 inputs and outputs. I also have a pre-amp so i don't really need an outside box like in delta (if that helps). I am mainly interested in the sound quality. Does anyone know if the delta is better in sound quality. Quick response will be greatly appreciated cause I am about to buy one as soon as i can (today). Thanks. The Delta is designed work with standard audio production levels. The Audiophile isn't. |
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#3
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I have a berringer ultragain pro pre-amp. I going to feed the Soundcard input from the pre-amp. Hopefully this info helps in deciding which card is better for me. Thanks. Arny Krueger wrote: "chowdhury" wrote in message Hello, I am about to buy a sound card and trying to make a decision between the 2. Is there any difference in sound quality from them. I am aware that the 2496 has only 2 inputs, but its has midi and digital . That's good enough for me, I don't need 4 inputs and outputs. I also have a pre-amp so i don't really need an outside box like in delta (if that helps). I am mainly interested in the sound quality. Does anyone know if the delta is better in sound quality. Quick response will be greatly appreciated cause I am about to buy one as soon as i can (today). Thanks. The Delta is designed work with standard audio production levels. The Audiophile isn't. |
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#4
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On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:42:04 -0700, chowdhury
wrote: I have a berringer ultragain pro pre-amp. I going to feed the Soundcard input from the pre-amp. Hopefully this info helps in deciding which card is better for me. Thanks. In that case, as long as you can set the levels right on whichever one you get, it will make no noticable difference whatsoever to the sound. |
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#5
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chowdhury wrote in message ...
I have a berringer ultragain pro pre-amp. I going to feed the Soundcard input from the pre-amp. Hopefully this info helps in deciding which card is better for me. Thanks. Arny Krueger wrote: "chowdhury" wrote in message Hello, I am about to buy a sound card and trying to make a decision between the 2. Is there any difference in sound quality from them. I am aware that the 2496 has only 2 inputs, but its has midi and digital . That's good enough for me, I don't need 4 inputs and outputs. I also have a pre-amp so i don't really need an outside box like in delta (if that helps). I am mainly interested in the sound quality. Does anyone know if the delta is better in sound quality. Quick response will be greatly appreciated cause I am about to buy one as soon as i can (today). Thanks. The Delta is designed work with standard audio production levels. The Audiophile isn't. Hello, I was in the exact same situation. I found that the Echo Mia Midi is a better choice than the audiophile due to the +4 dbv levels(pro) and the balanced 1/4 inch inputs/outputs(pro). I usually rent vintage outboard mic pre's and run them into the echo - I was floor'd by the sound when I first heard it. I will be adding another mia to increase my inputs to 4. "The secret to this whole gear craze is to pick a setup and stick with it" |
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#6
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chowdhury wrote in message ...
I have a berringer ultragain pro pre-amp. I going to feed the Soundcard input from the pre-amp. Hopefully this info helps in deciding which card is better for me. Thanks. The Delta is designed work with standard audio production levels. The Audiophile isn't. To explain that further to you, consumer gear uses inputs that accept -10 dB level, and that's what the Audiophile is made for. Pro gear uses inputs that accept the +4 dB level, which the Delta is made for. The Berringer would overload the Audiophile. So what he is saying is that it looks like you need the Delta. By the way, it appears as though you have a lot of questions. If you access this group through google intstead of newsgroups, you can get many questions answered by using the 'within this group' option of the search at the top. That way, you don't have to post with questions that have been asked and answered so many times already here. Good luck. |
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#7
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"Ben Bradley" wrote in message
On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:42:04 -0700, chowdhury wrote: I have a berringer ultragain pro pre-amp. I going to feed the Soundcard input from the pre-amp. Hopefully this info helps in deciding which card is better for me. Thanks. In that case, as long as you can set the levels right on whichever one you get, it will make no noticable difference whatsoever to the sound. It's not always that easy, because modern sound cards as a rule lack analog input level controls. Therefore the peak levels you can use on the source are going to be limited to the input overload point of the sound card, which for consumer cards including the AP2496, is about 1 volt. A possible work-around would be to add some kind of passive analog attenuator to the input of the sound card, one that provided 10-15 dB loss. Most good audio production gear is designed to handle and deliver peak levels on the order of 6 volts or more. So, you're going to have to give up about 15 dB of the potential dynamic range of any standard audio production equipment that you use with a consumer sound card. To put this into a real world context, most good audio production gear has over 80 dB dynamic range, and some of it has up to 120 dB dynamic range or more. Depending on the rest of the equipment, this loss of 15 dB dynamic range is either a nit or limit with some significance. |
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#8
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#9
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Mike Rivers wrote:
Another issue is that a typical mic preamp these days has 60 dB of gain. Regardless of its nominal operating level (-10 dBV or +4 dBu), for a given sound pressure level at a given microphone, both will have the same output level, as long as that doesn't exceed the maxiumum level of the preamp. Since most +4 dBu devices (which includes most outboard mic preamps) these days have a maximum output level of +22 to +24 dBu, and most nominal +4 dBu sound cards are calibrated so that full scale is reached with an input level of +20 to +24 dBu, if you need a lot of gain in the mic preamp, you're more likely to be able to reach full scale for a given SPL if you use it with a sound card with a -10 dBV input. But you're also likely to be able to drive the card's A/D cnverter into clipping. Also, if you need a lot of gain, you're more likely to reach or very nearly reach clipping of the preamp when going into a +4 nominal input than a -10 nominal input. You won't clip the sound card's A/D converter (the preamp may simply not be capable of putting out enough voltage to do so) but you'll be making a nice clean recording of a clipped (by the preamp) signal. This leads to "this mic isn't very hot" or "this preamp isn't very hot" issues which could be solved if it was possible to adjust the input sensitivity of the sound card to match the preamp output level. I often find that switching my ADI-8DS input gain to a lower setting gives me a lower noisefloor than cranking the preamp up. I would miss that functionality in many of today's converters. |
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#10
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1090328731k@trad In article writes: On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:42:04 -0700, chowdhury wrote: I have a berringer ultragain pro pre-amp. I going to feed the Soundcard input from the pre-amp. Hopefully this info helps in deciding which card is better for me. It's not always that easy, because modern sound cards as a rule lack analog input level controls. Therefore the peak levels you can use on the source are going to be limited to the input overload point of the sound card, which for consumer cards including the AP2496, is about 1 volt. Most good audio production gear is designed to handle and deliver peak levels on the order of 6 volts or more. So, you're going to have to give up about 15 dB of the potential dynamic range of any standard audio production equipment that you use with a consumer sound card. Another issue is that a typical mic preamp these days has 60 dB of gain. Regardless of its nominal operating level (-10 dBV or +4 dBu), for a given sound pressure level at a given microphone, both will have the same output level, as long as that doesn't exceed the maxiumum level of the preamp. Right, because a mic preamp with 60 dB gain has 60 dB gain no matter what the reference level it is designed for. Since most +4 dBu devices (which includes most outboard mic preamps) these days have a maximum output level of +22 to +24 dBu, Agreed. and most nominal +4 dBu sound cards are calibrated so that full scale is reached with an input level of +20 to +24 dBu, I would say more like 14 to 16 dB. if you need a lot of gain in the mic preamp, you're more likely to be able to reach full scale for a given SPL if you use it with a sound card with a -10 dBV input. In essence this adds about 11 dB gain. But you're also likely to be able to drive the card's A/D cnverter into clipping. That's the sitch with consumer sound cards. Most of the Delta series cards other than the "Audiophile" series are switchable for -10 dB or +4 (nominal) inputs. My recollection is that in either case, clipping is about 10 dB higher than the nominal input. Also, if you need a lot of gain, you're more likely to reach or very nearly reach clipping of the preamp when going into a +4 nominal input than a -10 nominal input. Because the card is like to clip first. You won't clip the sound card's A/D converter (the preamp may simply not be capable of putting out enough voltage to do so) but you'll be making a nice clean recording of a clipped (by the preamp) signal. Given that most sound cards in +4 mode clip about 6 dB lower than most audio production gear including mic preamps, I'd put the sound card up as being the most likely to clip, either way. This leads to "this mic isn't very hot" or "this preamp isn't very hot" issues which could be solved if it was possible to adjust the input sensitivity of the sound card to match the preamp output level. Good point, if the sound card lets you choose between -10 and +4. Think of the -10 input sensitivity as an 11 dB un-attenuator. The real solution would be to settle on a standard for analog vs. digital calibration, that would mean that too many manufacturers would have to change their products, or change their marketing. IME most cards in +4 mode reach FS at a point that is either 10 or 12 dB over nominal input. On the one had a standard would be nice, but a 2 dB range is generally not a biggie. Of course people need to learn that digital is not going to suddenly start sounding bad, just because there's up to 2 dB headroom. |
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#11
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"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
I often find that switching my ADI-8DS input gain to a lower setting gives me a lower noisefloor than cranking the preamp up. As you know, that means that either the preamp and/or the card's dynamic range is not constant with changes in gain. I wonder which device is dominant here. I would guess that its the preamp. If a gain control is at the output of a device, then its dynamic range does not change with changes in gain. The noise floor moves up and down along with changes in output due to changes of the gain control. If a gain control is at the input of a device, then dynamic range tends to increase with an increase in gain. IOW the noise floor tends not to move down with a decrease of the output due to a decrease in the setting of the gain control. Your example seems to follow neither rule. This corresponds to a gain control someplace in the middle of the device, which is a common pattern with mic preamps. |
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#12
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#13
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"John Fowler" wrote in message om... To explain that further to you, consumer gear uses inputs that accept -10 dB level, and that's what the Audiophile is made for. Pro gear uses inputs that accept the +4 dB level, which the Delta is made for. The Berringer would overload the Audiophile. So what he is saying is that it looks like you need the Delta. Not necessarily. The Delta is more suitable sure, but the Behringer WON'T overload the Audiophile if you know how to adjust levels. Can we assume the software has proper metering? What's more, the recorder outputs are probably at consumer levels, so it will depend on how you plan to connect it as well. If he still had problems he could simply use pads. IMO the real benefit of a soundcard with +4dB inputs is to provide the possibility of better dynamic range within the soundcard. TonyP. |
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#14
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#15
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"TonyP" wrote in message
u "John Fowler" wrote in message om... To explain that further to you, consumer gear uses inputs that accept -10 dB level, and that's what the Audiophile is made for. Pro gear uses inputs that accept the +4 dB level, which the Delta is made for. The Berringer would overload the Audiophile. So what he is saying is that it looks like you need the Delta. Not necessarily. The Delta is more suitable sure, but the Behringer WON'T overload the Audiophile if you know how to adjust levels. Can we assume the software has proper metering? In the end it does, because you can always monitor the recording. That's usually more representtative than meters, anyway. However, my point has been that if you do that, you're giving up something like 15 dB worth of dynamic range in the source unless you add some attenuation before the input of the consumer audio interface card. What's more, the recorder outputs are probably at consumer levels, so it will depend on how you plan to connect it as well. If he still had problems he could simply use pads. Exactly. IMO the real benefit of a soundcard with +4dB inputs is to provide the possibility of better dynamic range within the soundcard. Now that we have $100 sound cards with ca. 100 dB dynamic range, its probably not the weakest link. But as I've shown, consumer sound cards can force other parts of the system into suboptimal operation. And yes, you can probably give up 15 dB dynamic range without problems, but you don't want to do it more than once. You may rather use that 15 dB for headroom. |
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#16
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#17
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
... "TonyP" wrote in message u "John Fowler" wrote in message om... To explain that further to you, consumer gear uses inputs that accept -10 dB level, and that's what the Audiophile is made for. Pro gear uses inputs that accept the +4 dB level, which the Delta is made for. I didn't catch this whole thread but the Delta has selectable -10/+4 inputs and outputs and the Audiophile might too. |
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#18
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"Ricky W. Hunt" wrote in message
news:RtxLc.139338$JR4.5765@attbi_s54 "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "TonyP" wrote in message u "John Fowler" wrote in message om... To explain that further to you, consumer gear uses inputs that accept -10 dB level, and that's what the Audiophile is made for. Pro gear uses inputs that accept the +4 dB level, which the Delta is made for. I didn't catch this whole thread but the Delta has selectable -10/+4 inputs and outputs and the Audiophile might too. The rest of the Delta line is -10/+4 selectable, but not the AP2496. Compare http://www.m-audio.com/images/en/man...496_Manual.pdf Page 24 - the picture of the control panel, under "Variable Settings - Output" (there are no input voltage settings - the card just clips at I believe it is 1.2 volts) to http://www.m-audio.com/images/en/man...0LT-Manual.pdf "In the first layer there are three selections available for globally setting the operating line levels for the Delta 1010LT's analog input and output ports. These selections are labeled "+4dBu," "Consumer" (-4dB), and "-10dBV," represented by sets of radio buttons each for both the Delta analog inputs and the Delta analog outputs. These sections are labeled "All Inputs" and "All Outputs," respectively." This is typical of most of the PCI cards in the Delta series. The 1010 differs in that it uses individual input and output -10/+4 pushbutton switches on the interface box. |
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#19
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#20
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Thanks everyone for participating in the discussion. I bought the Delta
because it has the balanced inputs. Plus its so cheap nowadays only $150, Audiophile cost $100. Arny Krueger wrote: "Ricky W. Hunt" wrote in message news:RtxLc.139338$JR4.5765@attbi_s54 "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "TonyP" wrote in message m.au "John Fowler" wrote in message le.com... To explain that further to you, consumer gear uses inputs that accept -10 dB level, and that's what the Audiophile is made for. Pro gear uses inputs that accept the +4 dB level, which the Delta is made for. I didn't catch this whole thread but the Delta has selectable -10/+4 inputs and outputs and the Audiophile might too. The rest of the Delta line is -10/+4 selectable, but not the AP2496. Compare http://www.m-audio.com/images/en/man...496_Manual.pdf Page 24 - the picture of the control panel, under "Variable Settings - Output" (there are no input voltage settings - the card just clips at I believe it is 1.2 volts) to http://www.m-audio.com/images/en/man...0LT-Manual.pdf "In the first layer there are three selections available for globally setting the operating line levels for the Delta 1010LT's analog input and output ports. These selections are labeled "+4dBu," "Consumer" (-4dB), and "-10dBV," represented by sets of radio buttons each for both the Delta analog inputs and the Delta analog outputs. These sections are labeled "All Inputs" and "All Outputs," respectively." This is typical of most of the PCI cards in the Delta series. The 1010 differs in that it uses individual input and output -10/+4 pushbutton switches on the interface box. |
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#21
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"chowdhury" wrote in message
Thanks everyone for participating in the discussion. I bought the Delta because it has the balanced inputs. Plus its so cheap nowadays only $150, Audiophile cost $100. The Delta 44 and Delta 66 don't have true balanced I/O. The input is simply unbalanced (ring hooked to air) while the outputs are impedance balanced (ring hooked to a resistor to ground). The 1010 has true balanced inputs, but just impedance balanced outputs. the 1010LT has two balanced inputs, while the rest of the inputs and outputs are RCAs and therefore obviously unbalanced. |
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#22
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:11:24 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: "chowdhury" wrote in message Thanks everyone for participating in the discussion. I bought the Delta because it has the balanced inputs. Plus its so cheap nowadays only $150, Audiophile cost $100. The Delta 44 and Delta 66 don't have true balanced I/O. The input is simply unbalanced (ring hooked to air) Actually, the ring is connnected to a resistor (with the same resistance as the tip's input impedance) to ground, apparently so that the input gets correctly (sort-of) driven by a balanced transformer output. Otherwise a transformer would just drive the unconnected ring, with nothing into the tip. while the outputs are impedance balanced (ring hooked to a resistor to ground). The 1010 has true balanced inputs, but just impedance balanced outputs. the 1010LT has two balanced inputs, while the rest of the inputs and outputs are RCAs and therefore obviously unbalanced. |
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#23
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"Ben Bradley" wrote in message
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:11:24 -0400, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "chowdhury" wrote in message Thanks everyone for participating in the discussion. I bought the Delta because it has the balanced inputs. Plus its so cheap nowadays only $150, Audiophile cost $100. The Delta 44 and Delta 66 don't have true balanced I/O. The input is simply unbalanced (ring hooked to air) Actually, the ring is connnected to a resistor (with the same resistance as the tip's input impedance) to ground, apparently so that the input gets correctly (sort-of) driven by a balanced transformer output. Otherwise a transformer would just drive the unconnected ring, with nothing into the tip. Thanks for the correction. while the outputs are impedance balanced (ring hooked to a resistor to ground). The 1010 has true balanced inputs, but just impedance balanced outputs. the 1010LT has two balanced inputs, while the rest of the inputs and outputs are RCAs and therefore obviously unbalanced. |
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#24
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If Delta does not have true balanced inputs then is it not that good,
whats a better card at under $250 price range (the 1010 is under $250 but i need max 4 inputs, its a overkill). I am not searching Google for this cause prices have come down a lot and the google information is too old probably? Arny Krueger wrote: "chowdhury" wrote in message Thanks everyone for participating in the discussion. I bought the Delta because it has the balanced inputs. Plus its so cheap nowadays only $150, Audiophile cost $100. The Delta 44 and Delta 66 don't have true balanced I/O. The input is simply unbalanced (ring hooked to air) while the outputs are impedance balanced (ring hooked to a resistor to ground). The 1010 has true balanced inputs, but just impedance balanced outputs. the 1010LT has two balanced inputs, while the rest of the inputs and outputs are RCAs and therefore obviously unbalanced. |
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