In article writes:

So yes, there is a rational motivation for locking people in to your
software. You make more money. You can, as Microsoft has shown,
make money hand over fist. The question is, do you want to make
money hand over fist, or do you want to do what's best for society?
Microsoft has chosen the former.

This is hardly a fair question. If you were talking about a cure for
cancer, then yes, it would be nice to do something good for society
and offer your medicine or process at a price affordable to everyone
who has cancer. But we're talking about a luxury item here, a
computer. You won't die without one. You can buy the one that you need
to do the job you want to use it for. If the job requires a floppy
drive, then you can buy a computer with a floppy drive. If it requires
running an application that's only been written for one operating
system, then buy the computer that runs that operating system. A lot
of Macs were sold because of the music, audio, video, and graphics
programs written for the Mac (exclusively).

You buy the computer that runs the programs you need. You don't buy
the computer and then tell people that they should write programs for
you. Suppose you saw someone using Sequoia, or even Sonar or Audition,
and you decided that it was the best DAW for you and you could improve
your productivity if you started using it. Would you bitch and moan
because they didn't have a Mac veresion, or would you buy a PC, buy
the program, and start working? (OK, start learning g)

You could write a raw floppy image to the floppy drive from Terminal,
probably (using "dd"). You'd have to know what you're doing, though.
There is probably a way to make an icon that does all this automatically.

That sounds like an OS-X thing (actually a Unix thing). Can we assume
that every Mac owner is running the latest OS? I was doing fine with
Win3.1 around here but I finally had to upgrade to Win95 because there
was an application that I needed to run for work that required it.
Sort of like having to buy a floppy drive, I guess, only a whole lot
more trouble.

When possible, do things in a cross-platform way. In this case, I
would make a raw floppy image and put it on the CD in addition to
the Windows one. Then anyone who is not using Windows has a raw
floppy image to work with.

I suspect that a great many wouldn't have any idea what to do with a
raw floppy image on whatever OS they had. I don't know what to do with
one on Windows. Why should I assume that a Mac user would know what to
do with it? A Linux user might, because they're tinkerers.

If they are using an operating system
that makes it hard or impossible to make a floppy given a raw
floppy image, that's a weakness in their operating system and
it's their problem.

Aha!

By the way, I keep one computer alive here that has both a 5-1/4 and
3-1/2 inch floppy drive on it.

Is it CGA or EGA? Or did you spend the extra bucks and go to VGA?

It's a VGA, a 486 with 64 MB of RAM, I think. I use the monitor with
the Mackie MDR when I have it open on the bench.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Logan Shaw" wrote in message


During the question and answer time, my friend asked Bill Gates
basically this, "Microsoft is the richest software company in the
world. Why don't you contribute more money to industry organizations
that establish standards for computing?" His answer was, in effect,
"Why should we participate in an organization whose stated purpose
is to put us out of business?"

Good question. I guess we should throw Gates in jail for believing in
capitalism.

So yes, there is a rational motivation for locking people in to your
software. You make more money. You can, as Microsoft has shown,
make money hand over fist. The question is, do you want to make
money hand over fist, or do you want to do what's best for society?

This is not always an either/or situation, but you'll probably never get a
socialist or communist to admit that.

Microsoft has chosen the former.

Which is many contexts is also what's best for society. Let's take the
alternative viewpoint. Resolved: every company should avoid making money
wherever possible. Where does that lead us besides a society that is
bankrupt from end to end?

I'm not stupid enough to think
everyone is always going to choose the latter.

But, you seem to think that making money and benefitting society are always
in conflict.

Obviously, it's a
big money-making opportunity and there will be people will fight
to win it for themselves.

The operative rules of capitalism say that this is a good thing. History
shows that except for a few exceptional cases, capitalism is a good thing.

However, I also don't think we should
all just capitulate and let Microsoft or anyone else control the
future of computing.

I think we have some clues about how this game goes over a period of time.
50 years ago this same argument was going on, only the name was changed from
Microsoft to General Motors. How's your knowlege of business history? I was
there, and I see the same potential future for MS.

Sadly (for Mac users) it appears that this is going to limit it to
PeeCees. As Hank pointed out, Mac users can buy a USB drive for not a
lot of money, but they'll grouse and bitch about it and lose sight of
the swamp they're trying to drain.

The same will happen with PCs, because of the rapidly declining utlitity of
floppy discs and the rapidly increasing utility and decreasing cost of
competitive solutions. That's capitalism at work!

"Logan Shaw" wrote in message


During the question and answer time, my friend asked Bill Gates
basically this, "Microsoft is the richest software company in the
world. Why don't you contribute more money to industry organizations
that establish standards for computing?" His answer was, in effect,
"Why should we participate in an organization whose stated purpose
is to put us out of business?"

Good question. I guess we should throw Gates in jail for believing in
capitalism.

So yes, there is a rational motivation for locking people in to your
software. You make more money. You can, as Microsoft has shown,
make money hand over fist. The question is, do you want to make
money hand over fist, or do you want to do what's best for society?

This is not always an either/or situation, but you'll probably never get a
socialist or communist to admit that.

Microsoft has chosen the former.

Which is many contexts is also what's best for society. Let's take the
alternative viewpoint. Resolved: every company should avoid making money
wherever possible. Where does that lead us besides a society that is
bankrupt from end to end?

I'm not stupid enough to think
everyone is always going to choose the latter.

But, you seem to think that making money and benefitting society are always
in conflict.

Obviously, it's a
big money-making opportunity and there will be people will fight
to win it for themselves.

The operative rules of capitalism say that this is a good thing. History
shows that except for a few exceptional cases, capitalism is a good thing.

However, I also don't think we should
all just capitulate and let Microsoft or anyone else control the
future of computing.

I think we have some clues about how this game goes over a period of time.
50 years ago this same argument was going on, only the name was changed from
Microsoft to General Motors. How's your knowlege of business history? I was
there, and I see the same potential future for MS.

Sadly (for Mac users) it appears that this is going to limit it to
PeeCees. As Hank pointed out, Mac users can buy a USB drive for not a
lot of money, but they'll grouse and bitch about it and lose sight of
the swamp they're trying to drain.

The same will happen with PCs, because of the rapidly declining utlitity of
floppy discs and the rapidly increasing utility and decreasing cost of
competitive solutions. That's capitalism at work!

George Perfect wrote:

If Apple has 1% of the desktop market, that means that this argument
concerns 5 people who can't be bothered to find one of the several
hundred million PCs on the planet that happens to have a floppy disk
drive installed.

That's FIVE people ...!

Unless within the specfic slice of the sample holding Mackie HDR's
Macsters are a significantly higher chunk. I don't know whether or not
that's the case, but it's a possibility.

As I have said before, I cannot for the life of me, understand why he
should be expected to even *research* how a Mac user might make use of
his work.

So he could stand a chance of selling them a book? g

--
ha

George Perfect wrote:

If Apple has 1% of the desktop market, that means that this argument
concerns 5 people who can't be bothered to find one of the several
hundred million PCs on the planet that happens to have a floppy disk
drive installed.

That's FIVE people ...!

Unless within the specfic slice of the sample holding Mackie HDR's
Macsters are a significantly higher chunk. I don't know whether or not
that's the case, but it's a possibility.

As I have said before, I cannot for the life of me, understand why he
should be expected to even *research* how a Mac user might make use of
his work.

So he could stand a chance of selling them a book? g

--
ha

Arny Krueger wrote:

Good question. I guess we should throw Gates in jail for believing in
capitalism.

If he got billed for the time lost by people trying to ameliorate the
**** in their inbox that got there because he left a lot of windows
open, he probably wouldn't be rich. Like I've suggested, he has 46
bllion and still can't afford to fix his windows. His wealth exists
because he has stolen a lot of people's _time_, but since they're all
little people they don't get to bill him for their time.

In theory capitalism rests on free markets; in practice, we have no free
markets. Meet the new robber barons, same as the old robber barons, but
richer.

--
ha

Arny Krueger wrote:

Good question. I guess we should throw Gates in jail for believing in
capitalism.

If he got billed for the time lost by people trying to ameliorate the
**** in their inbox that got there because he left a lot of windows
open, he probably wouldn't be rich. Like I've suggested, he has 46
bllion and still can't afford to fix his windows. His wealth exists
because he has stolen a lot of people's _time_, but since they're all
little people they don't get to bill him for their time.

In theory capitalism rests on free markets; in practice, we have no free
markets. Meet the new robber barons, same as the old robber barons, but
richer.

--
ha

In this place, hank alrich was recorded saying ...

That's FIVE people ...!

Unless within the specfic slice of the sample holding Mackie HDR's
Macsters are a significantly higher chunk. I don't know whether or not
that's the case, but it's a possibility.

I don't know either - so I'll agree

As I have said before, I cannot for the life of me, understand why he
should be expected to even *research* how a Mac user might make use of
his work.

So he could stand a chance of selling them a book? g

A wealthy Mike?

Nah! g


--

George
Newcastle, England

Problems worthy of attack
Prove their worth, by hitting back [Piet Hein]

In this place, hank alrich was recorded saying ...

That's FIVE people ...!

Unless within the specfic slice of the sample holding Mackie HDR's
Macsters are a significantly higher chunk. I don't know whether or not
that's the case, but it's a possibility.

I don't know either - so I'll agree

As I have said before, I cannot for the life of me, understand why he
should be expected to even *research* how a Mac user might make use of
his work.

So he could stand a chance of selling them a book? g

A wealthy Mike?

Nah! g


--

George
Newcastle, England

Problems worthy of attack
Prove their worth, by hitting back [Piet Hein]

In article writes:

if you're storing a floppy image on a CD, why not include multiple
floppy image formats? have an executable for windows folks, a hqx (or
whatever) for macOS, and a raw 1.44MB image file for everybody else?

Welcome to the last quarter of the movie, Aaron. Hope you'll stay to
see the first part. This is exactly what we've been discussing. I
don't know how to make an "automatic" file for the Mac and that's what
I was asking about. Apparently nobody else does, either. Proposed
solutions have involved raw images and a multi-step building process.
Combine this with the fact that today a large portion of Mac users
don't have a floppy drive at all, and it just doesn't seem to be worth
the trouble on my end.

If the Mac user has to go to a computer store to buy a floppy drive
and then follow a page of instructions, he might as well take the CD
with the Windows self-extracting file to the same computer store,
sneak it into a computer on display, and created his floppy disk right
there. He could buy a box of floppy disks to make the store happy.

On the other hand, he could argue that he has no need to get off his
butt until UPS drops the package with the floppy drive that he ordered
on-line at his door.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

if you're storing a floppy image on a CD, why not include multiple
floppy image formats? have an executable for windows folks, a hqx (or
whatever) for macOS, and a raw 1.44MB image file for everybody else?

Welcome to the last quarter of the movie, Aaron. Hope you'll stay to
see the first part. This is exactly what we've been discussing. I
don't know how to make an "automatic" file for the Mac and that's what
I was asking about. Apparently nobody else does, either. Proposed
solutions have involved raw images and a multi-step building process.
Combine this with the fact that today a large portion of Mac users
don't have a floppy drive at all, and it just doesn't seem to be worth
the trouble on my end.

If the Mac user has to go to a computer store to buy a floppy drive
and then follow a page of instructions, he might as well take the CD
with the Windows self-extracting file to the same computer store,
sneak it into a computer on display, and created his floppy disk right
there. He could buy a box of floppy disks to make the store happy.

On the other hand, he could argue that he has no need to get off his
butt until UPS drops the package with the floppy drive that he ordered
on-line at his door.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

it's daft that an operating system agnostic raw disk image appears to be
difficult to deal with on the two most popular computing platforms.

I agree, but it seems that it is. How do I create such an image on a
Windows computer, and how to I create a floppy on a Windows computer
from that image file? I'm willing to experiment. I'd like to see your
perspective, but I'll be looking at it as if I was a musician with a
recording setup who uses the computer for e-mail and maybe running
ProTools.

also seems daft that mike is forced to provide a program for loading
said image onto a disk, and that windows can't do this without some
out-of-the-box help.

It's a piece of cake with Windows. It IS an out-of-the-box solution,
and if I pay the $30 registration fee for WinImage, it will quit
putting up the message that the file was created with a non-registered
version and is therefore not authorized for distribution. With the EXE
file that's created, the Windows user only needs to click on the file
name with a floppy disk in the drive and let it cook. Nothing could be
simpler other than taking a floppy disk out of the package instead of
a CD. But that pushes up the cost - like so many other things, it only
seems like a little bit, but eventually the price for the full package
creeps up to the point where I'd be uncomfortable with it.

Also, it's more reliable to send a CD through the mail these days, and
old disks don't seem to work very well. People would be upset if they
paid for a floppy disk and when they needed to use it, found that it
didn't work.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

it's daft that an operating system agnostic raw disk image appears to be
difficult to deal with on the two most popular computing platforms.

I agree, but it seems that it is. How do I create such an image on a
Windows computer, and how to I create a floppy on a Windows computer
from that image file? I'm willing to experiment. I'd like to see your
perspective, but I'll be looking at it as if I was a musician with a
recording setup who uses the computer for e-mail and maybe running
ProTools.

also seems daft that mike is forced to provide a program for loading
said image onto a disk, and that windows can't do this without some
out-of-the-box help.

It's a piece of cake with Windows. It IS an out-of-the-box solution,
and if I pay the $30 registration fee for WinImage, it will quit
putting up the message that the file was created with a non-registered
version and is therefore not authorized for distribution. With the EXE
file that's created, the Windows user only needs to click on the file
name with a floppy disk in the drive and let it cook. Nothing could be
simpler other than taking a floppy disk out of the package instead of
a CD. But that pushes up the cost - like so many other things, it only
seems like a little bit, but eventually the price for the full package
creeps up to the point where I'd be uncomfortable with it.

Also, it's more reliable to send a CD through the mail these days, and
old disks don't seem to work very well. People would be upset if they
paid for a floppy disk and when they needed to use it, found that it
didn't work.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

This does not sound very consistent. You sell a floppy for a Mackie and
ask people to buy a Microsoft OS and system to read it.

Not correct. Mackie sells a recorder that has a floppy drive, and
provides a floppy disk with it from which the user can reload the
software. The user then loses the floppy disk.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

This does not sound very consistent. You sell a floppy for a Mackie and
ask people to buy a Microsoft OS and system to read it.

Not correct. Mackie sells a recorder that has a floppy drive, and
provides a floppy disk with it from which the user can reload the
software. The user then loses the floppy disk.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Logan Shaw" wrote in message


So yes, there is a rational motivation for locking people in to your
software. You make more money. You can, as Microsoft has shown,
make money hand over fist. The question is, do you want to make
money hand over fist, or do you want to do what's best for society?

This is not always an either/or situation, but you'll probably never get a
socialist or communist to admit that.

It's not. You can make a healthy income and do what's best for
society. But when your goal is to make the absolute maximum possible
income at all costs, then you can't do what's best for society.

- Logan

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Logan Shaw" wrote in message


So yes, there is a rational motivation for locking people in to your
software. You make more money. You can, as Microsoft has shown,
make money hand over fist. The question is, do you want to make
money hand over fist, or do you want to do what's best for society?

This is not always an either/or situation, but you'll probably never get a
socialist or communist to admit that.

It's not. You can make a healthy income and do what's best for
society. But when your goal is to make the absolute maximum possible
income at all costs, then you can't do what's best for society.

- Logan

In article writes:

Not correct. Mackie sells a recorder that has a floppy drive, and
provides a floppy disk with it from which the user can reload the
software. The user then loses the floppy disk.

I understood you are writing a book and want to include an image of a
floppy on CD when you sell the book.

Oh, let's not argue about details.
I take it those "raw" utilities you posted are something that I'll
have to find since they're not part of Windows. I'm concerned about
doing that because I'll have to tell the users where to find those
utilities (I guess I could put them on the CD if they're freeware) and
tell them how to use them. I'm writing a book about the recorder, not
about computers. I think I'll just let those who don't have PCs find
one. It's not that hard. Some of them may not even have Macs.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Not correct. Mackie sells a recorder that has a floppy drive, and
provides a floppy disk with it from which the user can reload the
software. The user then loses the floppy disk.

I understood you are writing a book and want to include an image of a
floppy on CD when you sell the book.

Oh, let's not argue about details.
I take it those "raw" utilities you posted are something that I'll
have to find since they're not part of Windows. I'm concerned about
doing that because I'll have to tell the users where to find those
utilities (I guess I could put them on the CD if they're freeware) and
tell them how to use them. I'm writing a book about the recorder, not
about computers. I think I'll just let those who don't have PCs find
one. It's not that hard. Some of them may not even have Macs.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1089854537k@trad...
This is hardly a fair question. If you were talking about a cure for
cancer, then yes, it would be nice to do something good for society
and offer your medicine or process at a price affordable to everyone
who has cancer.

Pity the drug companies are busy preventing anyone from making generic
cancer and HIV drugs then.
Human misery generates some of the worlds biggest profits, just look at the
war (AKA "defence") contractors.

TonyP.

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1089854537k@trad...
This is hardly a fair question. If you were talking about a cure for
cancer, then yes, it would be nice to do something good for society
and offer your medicine or process at a price affordable to everyone
who has cancer.

Pity the drug companies are busy preventing anyone from making generic
cancer and HIV drugs then.
Human misery generates some of the worlds biggest profits, just look at the
war (AKA "defence") contractors.

TonyP.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Which is many contexts is also what's best for society. Let's take the
alternative viewpoint. Resolved: every company should avoid making money
wherever possible. Where does that lead us besides a society that is
bankrupt from end to end?

Can you only see black and white. Where's the middle ground?

The operative rules of capitalism say that this is a good thing. History
shows that except for a few exceptional cases, capitalism is a good thing.

It shows no such thing, but rich capitalists sure do believe in proof by
constant assertion!
Funny I just saw a survey today showing Norway as the best economy followed
by Sweden.
Not exactly rampant capitalism/fascism there compared to the U.S. model.
Much more socialistic.
USA was number seven I think.

TonyP.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Which is many contexts is also what's best for society. Let's take the
alternative viewpoint. Resolved: every company should avoid making money
wherever possible. Where does that lead us besides a society that is
bankrupt from end to end?

Can you only see black and white. Where's the middle ground?

The operative rules of capitalism say that this is a good thing. History
shows that except for a few exceptional cases, capitalism is a good thing.

It shows no such thing, but rich capitalists sure do believe in proof by
constant assertion!
Funny I just saw a survey today showing Norway as the best economy followed
by Sweden.
Not exactly rampant capitalism/fascism there compared to the U.S. model.
Much more socialistic.
USA was number seven I think.

TonyP.

Mike Rivers wrote:
Are all disk image files created the same? I'm not aware of a built-in
method for creating one in Windows (though I just plain don't know,
there may be). WinImage, the program that I used to created the
self-running EXE file, creates a disk image with the extension IMZ. Is
that likely to be something that a Mac knows how to use? Maybe I have
the answer to my problem (though not the answer to my question) and I
don't even know it.

if the IMZ file is 1474560 bytes long, it's quite likely the raw image
the rest of us non-windows folk are after.

with a raw 1474560 byte long floppy disk image, I can create a mackie
boot disk on just about every machine I own with a functional floppy
disk, and so I assume, can other people.

a raw floppy image is OS agnostic, since it's plain data. it's
application agnostic, since it contains information which was on the
floppy. no more, no less. it's a future-proof archival format. (well,
so long as functional floppy drives and media are still around...)

I would encourage you to provide your self-writing windows EXE, as well
as a raw floppy image. you don't even have to officially publicize the
image's existance. just include it on the CD. and yes, I'm
volunteering to provide the image, gratis. send me email and we'll set
the details.

not having floppy drives on machines is a separate issue and one you
obviously can't address easily. or maybe you could sell a deluxe
version of the book with a floppy-equipped PC taped to the side? (:

--
Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." |
"someday the industry will have throbbing frontal lobes and will be able
to write provably correct software. also, I want a pony." -- Zach Brown

In article writes:

if the IMZ file is 1474560 bytes long, it's quite likely the raw image
the rest of us non-windows folk are after.

Nope. I haver two of them (from two different disks, and they're both
different sizes, less than 1.4 MB.

I would encourage you to provide your self-writing windows EXE, as well
as a raw floppy image. you don't even have to officially publicize the
image's existance. just include it on the CD.

Well, if it's there, I feel that I should explain what it is. And if I
don't explain how to use it, I'm going to become "tech support" for
stuff I know nothing about (what's new?). Maybe what I'll do is simply
say that if a reader absolutely can't create his own floppy, send me a
blank floppy and return postage and I'll send it back loaded. That
would be a good test to see if the "maybe five readers" estimate is
accurate.


and yes, I'm
volunteering to provide the image, gratis. send me email and we'll set
the details.

Thanks, but I have a volunteer working on a Mac simpleminded version.
If he comes up with one, I'll put it on, otherwise (and I've already
written the text) I'm going to stick with my "Just go find a damn PC.
You know you can. Do it now, don't wait until you're desperate."
approach.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Mike Rivers wrote:

In article writes:

I would encourage you to provide your self-writing windows EXE, as well
as a raw floppy image. you don't even have to officially publicize the
image's existance. just include it on the CD.

Well, if it's there, I feel that I should explain what it is. And if I
don't explain how to use it, I'm going to become "tech support" for
stuff I know nothing about (what's new?).

Just say the raw image is "most often useful on Linux or other operating
systems that include the 'dd' utility". It's one of those statements
that doesn't tell the whole story (you could use the raw image on
Windows), but anyone who knows what the 'dd' utility is will probably
know what a raw image is.

Or just say "the raw image is as an alternative since some advanced
users prefer raw images".

- Logan

Mike Rivers wrote:

Zip is directly accessible from the Finder (what Windows later
creatively chose to call Explorer).

Oh, so THAT's what Finder is. I never thought that Explorer was a very
good name for it in Windows either, particularly since Microsoft
already had Internet Explorer. I miss the days when I could just type
DIR.


Well, that was M$'s whole point in the DOJ hearings a few years ago.
They said that the Explorer was part of the OS. cough cough

Mike Rivers wrote:

Which is going to be more difficult to the Mac user - deciding which
set of instructions to use and understanding how to use them, or going
next door and saying "May I use your PC for a few minutes?"


Well, if it's man, you could add two other choices: RTFM, and asking for
directions. The toughest of the four choices would be going next door.

Who was doing the favor for whom?

Mike Rivers wrote:

Zip is directly accessible from the Finder (what Windows later
creatively chose to call Explorer).

Oh, so THAT's what Finder is. I never thought that Explorer was a
very good name for it in Windows either, particularly since Microsoft
already had Internet Explorer. I miss the days when I could just type
DIR.

You still can !

geoff