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#1
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useful mics for for quick setup to record live in a club
Hi there, a month ago I posted and got some terrific advice from Scott and
bought a pair of AT4051s to put in my club to get a good 3rd row sound. As I knew would happen, I'm trying to make it sound better and better, and now have the dilemma of putting mics on the bass and guitar amps, and the kick for some more definition. (all signals into the recorder, not for reinforcement). I'm trying to keep this all super bare bones, ready-to-spill-beer-on-set-up-in-5-min-for-any-group-type situation, since there are too many different bands and too many different instrument combinations to deal with, and having a small area covered with mic stands is a drag. Maximum of four mics on the floor at one time, with a stereo pair out front. To save time I usually record 4-5 tracks only, and mix them all down into 2 without any Eq, then work out a bit of compression if needed and add eq and reverb to the 2 track. I'm thinking of a pair of MD421s for the bass cabinet and kick, and/or occasional other instruments, and a pair of sm57s for a guitar amp and the extra instrument or vocalist. Any other tried and true built for speed and simplicity suggestions? Thanks! |
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#2
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On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:17:45 -0400, offpeak808 wrote
(in article ): Hi there, a month ago I posted and got some terrific advice from Scott and bought a pair of AT4051s to put in my club to get a good 3rd row sound. As I knew would happen, I'm trying to make it sound better and better, and now have the dilemma of putting mics on the bass and guitar amps, and the kick for some more definition. (all signals into the recorder, not for reinforcement). I'm trying to keep this all super bare bones, ready-to-spill-beer-on-set-up-in-5-min-for-any-group-type situation, since there are too many different bands and too many different instrument combinations to deal with, and having a small area covered with mic stands is a drag. Maximum of four mics on the floor at one time, with a stereo pair out front. To save time I usually record 4-5 tracks only, and mix them all down into 2 without any Eq, then work out a bit of compression if needed and add eq and reverb to the 2 track. I'm thinking of a pair of MD421s for the bass cabinet and kick, and/or occasional other instruments, and a pair of sm57s for a guitar amp and the extra instrument or vocalist. Any other tried and true built for speed and simplicity suggestions? Thanks! or get a mic splitter and a mixer and use the existing mics to capture the sound. Regards, Ty Ford -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at http://home.comcast.net/~tyreeford |
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#3
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On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:17:45 -0400, offpeak808 wrote
(in article ): Hi there, a month ago I posted and got some terrific advice from Scott and bought a pair of AT4051s to put in my club to get a good 3rd row sound. As I knew would happen, I'm trying to make it sound better and better, and now have the dilemma of putting mics on the bass and guitar amps, and the kick for some more definition. (all signals into the recorder, not for reinforcement). I'm trying to keep this all super bare bones, ready-to-spill-beer-on-set-up-in-5-min-for-any-group-type situation, since there are too many different bands and too many different instrument combinations to deal with, and having a small area covered with mic stands is a drag. Maximum of four mics on the floor at one time, with a stereo pair out front. To save time I usually record 4-5 tracks only, and mix them all down into 2 without any Eq, then work out a bit of compression if needed and add eq and reverb to the 2 track. I'm thinking of a pair of MD421s for the bass cabinet and kick, and/or occasional other instruments, and a pair of sm57s for a guitar amp and the extra instrument or vocalist. Any other tried and true built for speed and simplicity suggestions? Thanks! or get a mic splitter and a mixer and use the existing mics to capture the sound. Regards, Ty Ford -- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at http://home.comcast.net/~tyreeford |
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#4
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offpeak808 wrote:
As I knew would happen, I'm trying to make it sound better and better, and now have the dilemma of putting mics on the bass and guitar amps, and the kick for some more definition. (all signals into the recorder, not for reinforcement). I'm trying to keep this all super bare bones, ready-to-spill-beer-on-set-up-in-5-min-for-any-group-type situation, since there are too many different bands and too many different instrument combinations to deal with, and having a small area covered with mic stands is a drag. Maximum of four mics on the floor at one time, with a stereo pair out front. To save time I usually record 4-5 tracks only, and mix them all down into 2 without any Eq, then work out a bit of compression if needed and add eq and reverb to the 2 track. I'm thinking of a pair of MD421s for the bass cabinet and kick, and/or occasional other instruments, and a pair of sm57s for a guitar amp and the extra instrument or vocalist. Can you get splits off the PA console at any point? I would suggest a pair of tighter and more narrow vocal microphones, say the Sennheiser e855, if you can't steal vocal feeds from the PA. The bass and kick aren't as big a worry as other instruments, I think, especially if you can EQ the bottom end on the mains somewhat, but it won't _hurt_ to spot them if you have the channels available. But getting clean vocals is very important for most types of music. Not for all... but I tend to like to build things around vocals. If you spot the vocals in a small club situation, you will almost certainly want to bring the main pair forward to get more stage sound and less of the vocal sound from the PA. Any other tried and true built for speed and simplicity suggestions? Set up a main pair where it sounds good, get splits of everything you can off the PA console, fight with the PA guy to get him to use tighter vocal mikes. Get to the gig earlier. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#5
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offpeak808 wrote:
As I knew would happen, I'm trying to make it sound better and better, and now have the dilemma of putting mics on the bass and guitar amps, and the kick for some more definition. (all signals into the recorder, not for reinforcement). I'm trying to keep this all super bare bones, ready-to-spill-beer-on-set-up-in-5-min-for-any-group-type situation, since there are too many different bands and too many different instrument combinations to deal with, and having a small area covered with mic stands is a drag. Maximum of four mics on the floor at one time, with a stereo pair out front. To save time I usually record 4-5 tracks only, and mix them all down into 2 without any Eq, then work out a bit of compression if needed and add eq and reverb to the 2 track. I'm thinking of a pair of MD421s for the bass cabinet and kick, and/or occasional other instruments, and a pair of sm57s for a guitar amp and the extra instrument or vocalist. Can you get splits off the PA console at any point? I would suggest a pair of tighter and more narrow vocal microphones, say the Sennheiser e855, if you can't steal vocal feeds from the PA. The bass and kick aren't as big a worry as other instruments, I think, especially if you can EQ the bottom end on the mains somewhat, but it won't _hurt_ to spot them if you have the channels available. But getting clean vocals is very important for most types of music. Not for all... but I tend to like to build things around vocals. If you spot the vocals in a small club situation, you will almost certainly want to bring the main pair forward to get more stage sound and less of the vocal sound from the PA. Any other tried and true built for speed and simplicity suggestions? Set up a main pair where it sounds good, get splits of everything you can off the PA console, fight with the PA guy to get him to use tighter vocal mikes. Get to the gig earlier. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#6
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#7
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#8
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Can you get splits off the PA console at any point? **Using the Mackie 1402, I have six channel inserts I can use, and since I'm running the PA myself, can take anything I want off of it. I will need to get some replacement mics since the club only has 2 vocal mics which are about to die from many years of hard work. I could go for the standard couple of SM58s and a couple of SM57s, but since we're starting off with a pair of AT4051s already out front in ORTF for recording, I thought I should try to complement this as much as possible with some other nice-ish but durable reinforcement/recording stuff on stage. Like maybe a Beyer M-88 for the main vocal, a couple of SM57s for a cabinet and an additional instrument or backup vocal, and maybe one other mic like a 421 to spot the bass cabinet or the kick if needed, or act as a second vocal mic if a lot of people are singing. That's about as fancy as I need right now. The idea is to get the bands up and running fast onstage, and be able to pull off a decent enough live recording that customers will enjoy it and say that it "sounds as good as I remember." |
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#9
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Can you get splits off the PA console at any point? **Using the Mackie 1402, I have six channel inserts I can use, and since I'm running the PA myself, can take anything I want off of it. I will need to get some replacement mics since the club only has 2 vocal mics which are about to die from many years of hard work. I could go for the standard couple of SM58s and a couple of SM57s, but since we're starting off with a pair of AT4051s already out front in ORTF for recording, I thought I should try to complement this as much as possible with some other nice-ish but durable reinforcement/recording stuff on stage. Like maybe a Beyer M-88 for the main vocal, a couple of SM57s for a cabinet and an additional instrument or backup vocal, and maybe one other mic like a 421 to spot the bass cabinet or the kick if needed, or act as a second vocal mic if a lot of people are singing. That's about as fancy as I need right now. The idea is to get the bands up and running fast onstage, and be able to pull off a decent enough live recording that customers will enjoy it and say that it "sounds as good as I remember." |
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#10
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"offpeak808" wrote in message
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Can you get splits off the PA console at any point? **Using the Mackie 1402, I have six channel inserts I can use, and since I'm running the PA myself, can take anything I want off of it. Good, because a good live recording in this environment is often obtained with a mixture of room sound and spot mics. The room sound can be obained from your ORTF array. That leaves sourcing the spot mics. Far and away the easiest way to get many of those is from the existing SR system. I will need to get some replacement mics since the club only has 2 vocal mics which are about to die from many years of hard work. I could go for the standard couple of SM58s and a couple of SM57s, but since we're starting off with a pair of AT4051s already out front in ORTF for recording, I thought I should try to complement this as much as possible with some other nice-ish but durable reinforcement/recording stuff on stage. In the following paragraph you seem to be contemplating your vocal mics from the standpoint of dual use. Good idea. In your context SM57s and SM58s may be a good all-around choice. They're cheap and readily availble, so they make good starting points if nothing else. You want to go with more quality up front. Like maybe a Beyer M-88 for the main vocal, a couple of SM57s for a cabinet and an additional instrument or backup vocal, and maybe one other mic like a 421 to spot the bass cabinet or the kick if needed, or act as a second vocal mic if a lot of people are singing. Go for it! That's about as fancy as I need right now. The idea is to get the bands up and running fast onstage, and be able to pull off a decent enough live recording that customers will enjoy it and say that it "sounds as good as I remember." As you probably know, live mixing and mixing for recording are generally two very different animals. Even if you had separate consoles for each, doing both in real time is expecting a lot of your mixer. In a small club you probably can't afford two mixers, and you may not get the best results that way, anyway. The usual approach to this situation is to use your console for SR and concurrently do a clean multichannel recording, one channel per mic preamp. You can get a direct enough feed off the mic preamps in your console via the insert points. Other mics, such as your ORTF pair and mics for instruments that don't need SR, may use outboard mic preamps if inboard preamps aren't avaialble. Latrer on, do your editing and mixdown of the multitrack recording with DAW software. I do something like this for a church with a Mackie SR32, a couple of Delta 1010s, and Audition/CEP. It seems to work out just fine. There is definately a learning curve, but once you get familiar with mixing and mastering, you can get a workable recording in maybe 3-6 times the duration of the origional live recording. IOW if you record a 30 minute set, 2-4 hours of editing and mixing later and you may have something you can burn to a CD and distribute without a lot of apologies. Don't forget the copyright and performer permission aspects of this situation, particularly if any of the music you sell is not origional works of the performers, including all samples, backup tracks, etc. |
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#11
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"offpeak808" wrote in message
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Can you get splits off the PA console at any point? **Using the Mackie 1402, I have six channel inserts I can use, and since I'm running the PA myself, can take anything I want off of it. Good, because a good live recording in this environment is often obtained with a mixture of room sound and spot mics. The room sound can be obained from your ORTF array. That leaves sourcing the spot mics. Far and away the easiest way to get many of those is from the existing SR system. I will need to get some replacement mics since the club only has 2 vocal mics which are about to die from many years of hard work. I could go for the standard couple of SM58s and a couple of SM57s, but since we're starting off with a pair of AT4051s already out front in ORTF for recording, I thought I should try to complement this as much as possible with some other nice-ish but durable reinforcement/recording stuff on stage. In the following paragraph you seem to be contemplating your vocal mics from the standpoint of dual use. Good idea. In your context SM57s and SM58s may be a good all-around choice. They're cheap and readily availble, so they make good starting points if nothing else. You want to go with more quality up front. Like maybe a Beyer M-88 for the main vocal, a couple of SM57s for a cabinet and an additional instrument or backup vocal, and maybe one other mic like a 421 to spot the bass cabinet or the kick if needed, or act as a second vocal mic if a lot of people are singing. Go for it! That's about as fancy as I need right now. The idea is to get the bands up and running fast onstage, and be able to pull off a decent enough live recording that customers will enjoy it and say that it "sounds as good as I remember." As you probably know, live mixing and mixing for recording are generally two very different animals. Even if you had separate consoles for each, doing both in real time is expecting a lot of your mixer. In a small club you probably can't afford two mixers, and you may not get the best results that way, anyway. The usual approach to this situation is to use your console for SR and concurrently do a clean multichannel recording, one channel per mic preamp. You can get a direct enough feed off the mic preamps in your console via the insert points. Other mics, such as your ORTF pair and mics for instruments that don't need SR, may use outboard mic preamps if inboard preamps aren't avaialble. Latrer on, do your editing and mixdown of the multitrack recording with DAW software. I do something like this for a church with a Mackie SR32, a couple of Delta 1010s, and Audition/CEP. It seems to work out just fine. There is definately a learning curve, but once you get familiar with mixing and mastering, you can get a workable recording in maybe 3-6 times the duration of the origional live recording. IOW if you record a 30 minute set, 2-4 hours of editing and mixing later and you may have something you can burn to a CD and distribute without a lot of apologies. Don't forget the copyright and performer permission aspects of this situation, particularly if any of the music you sell is not origional works of the performers, including all samples, backup tracks, etc. |
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#12
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In article ,
offpeak808 wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Can you get splits off the PA console at any point? **Using the Mackie 1402, I have six channel inserts I can use, and since I'm running the PA myself, can take anything I want off of it. I will need to get some replacement mics since the club only has 2 vocal mics which are about to die from many years of hard work. I could go for the standard couple of SM58s and a couple of SM57s, but since we're starting off with a pair of AT4051s already out front in ORTF for recording, I thought I should try to complement this as much as possible with some other nice-ish but durable reinforcement/recording stuff on stage. Like maybe a Beyer M-88 for the main vocal, a couple of SM57s for a cabinet and an additional instrument or backup vocal, and maybe one other mic like a 421 to spot the bass cabinet or the kick if needed, or act as a second vocal mic if a lot of people are singing. That's about as fancy as I need right now. The idea is to get the bands up and running fast onstage, and be able to pull off a decent enough live recording that customers will enjoy it and say that it "sounds as good as I remember." I would then take all the splits off of everything you can, starting with the vocals, and going until you run out of channels. I would spend the money for some very tight vocal mikes. It will help you a lot to have vocal mikes with less leakage, especially since you're already going to have a lot of PA leakage of vocals into the main pair. A few more SM57s wouldn't hurt, but it would be nice to have some vocal mikes that were a lot tighter than 57s. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#13
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In article ,
offpeak808 wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Can you get splits off the PA console at any point? **Using the Mackie 1402, I have six channel inserts I can use, and since I'm running the PA myself, can take anything I want off of it. I will need to get some replacement mics since the club only has 2 vocal mics which are about to die from many years of hard work. I could go for the standard couple of SM58s and a couple of SM57s, but since we're starting off with a pair of AT4051s already out front in ORTF for recording, I thought I should try to complement this as much as possible with some other nice-ish but durable reinforcement/recording stuff on stage. Like maybe a Beyer M-88 for the main vocal, a couple of SM57s for a cabinet and an additional instrument or backup vocal, and maybe one other mic like a 421 to spot the bass cabinet or the kick if needed, or act as a second vocal mic if a lot of people are singing. That's about as fancy as I need right now. The idea is to get the bands up and running fast onstage, and be able to pull off a decent enough live recording that customers will enjoy it and say that it "sounds as good as I remember." I would then take all the splits off of everything you can, starting with the vocals, and going until you run out of channels. I would spend the money for some very tight vocal mikes. It will help you a lot to have vocal mikes with less leakage, especially since you're already going to have a lot of PA leakage of vocals into the main pair. A few more SM57s wouldn't hurt, but it would be nice to have some vocal mikes that were a lot tighter than 57s. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#14
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , offpeak808 wrote: I will need to get some replacement mics since the club only has 2 vocal mics which are about to die from many years of hard work. I could go for the standard couple of SM58s and a couple of SM57s, but since we're starting off with a pair of AT4051s already out front in ORTF for recording, I thought I should try to complement this as much as possible with some other nice-ish but durable reinforcement/recording stuff on stage. Like maybe a Beyer M-88 for the main vocal, a couple of SM57s for a cabinet and an additional instrument or backup vocal, and maybe one other mic like a 421 to spot the bass cabinet or the kick if needed, or act as a second vocal mic if a lot of people are singing. That's about as fancy as I need right now. The idea is to get the bands up and running fast onstage, and be able to pull off a decent enough live recording that customers will enjoy it and say that it "sounds as good as I remember." I would spend the money for some very tight vocal mikes. It will help you a lot to have vocal mikes with less leakage, especially since you're already going to have a lot of PA leakage of vocals into the main pair. A few more SM57s wouldn't hurt, but it would be nice to have some vocal mikes that were a lot tighter than 57s. M88s are somewhat expensive and the new TG versions don't sound like the old standby versions. Audix has several inexpensive hypercardioids that are quite serviceable. $129 will get you an OM3 which IMO walks all over an SM58. $159 for an OM5 which has an even tighter pattern. Even the $99 OM2 is not all that bad... |
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#15
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , offpeak808 wrote: I will need to get some replacement mics since the club only has 2 vocal mics which are about to die from many years of hard work. I could go for the standard couple of SM58s and a couple of SM57s, but since we're starting off with a pair of AT4051s already out front in ORTF for recording, I thought I should try to complement this as much as possible with some other nice-ish but durable reinforcement/recording stuff on stage. Like maybe a Beyer M-88 for the main vocal, a couple of SM57s for a cabinet and an additional instrument or backup vocal, and maybe one other mic like a 421 to spot the bass cabinet or the kick if needed, or act as a second vocal mic if a lot of people are singing. That's about as fancy as I need right now. The idea is to get the bands up and running fast onstage, and be able to pull off a decent enough live recording that customers will enjoy it and say that it "sounds as good as I remember." I would spend the money for some very tight vocal mikes. It will help you a lot to have vocal mikes with less leakage, especially since you're already going to have a lot of PA leakage of vocals into the main pair. A few more SM57s wouldn't hurt, but it would be nice to have some vocal mikes that were a lot tighter than 57s. M88s are somewhat expensive and the new TG versions don't sound like the old standby versions. Audix has several inexpensive hypercardioids that are quite serviceable. $129 will get you an OM3 which IMO walks all over an SM58. $159 for an OM5 which has an even tighter pattern. Even the $99 OM2 is not all that bad... |
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#16
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I would spend the money for some very tight vocal mikes. It will help
you a lot to have vocal mikes with less leakage, especially since you're already going to have a lot of PA leakage of vocals into the main pair. A few more SM57s wouldn't hurt, but it would be nice to have some vocal mikes that were a lot tighter than 57s. **thanks...but now choices choices...tight/cheap/flat, looks like a pair of Sennheiser e855s or maybe even a pair of the those geeky EV egg mics. Let's me shuffle stuff around pretty easy. Am I making a mistake here? Haven't heard the e855s but have heard the 408s. I've also heard the Audix OM-5 is terrific. Unfortunately, can't play around and compare. If I put all three of these mics on a stand and knock the stand over, who's the contender? This kind of thing happens more often than I like on our crowded stage. |
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#17
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I would spend the money for some very tight vocal mikes. It will help
you a lot to have vocal mikes with less leakage, especially since you're already going to have a lot of PA leakage of vocals into the main pair. A few more SM57s wouldn't hurt, but it would be nice to have some vocal mikes that were a lot tighter than 57s. **thanks...but now choices choices...tight/cheap/flat, looks like a pair of Sennheiser e855s or maybe even a pair of the those geeky EV egg mics. Let's me shuffle stuff around pretty easy. Am I making a mistake here? Haven't heard the e855s but have heard the 408s. I've also heard the Audix OM-5 is terrific. Unfortunately, can't play around and compare. If I put all three of these mics on a stand and knock the stand over, who's the contender? This kind of thing happens more often than I like on our crowded stage. |
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#18
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On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:24:43 +0800, "offpeak808"
wrote: I would spend the money for some very tight vocal mikes. It will help you a lot to have vocal mikes with less leakage, especially since you're already going to have a lot of PA leakage of vocals into the main pair. A few more SM57s wouldn't hurt, but it would be nice to have some vocal mikes that were a lot tighter than 57s. **thanks...but now choices choices...tight/cheap/flat, looks like a pair of Sennheiser e855s or maybe even a pair of the those geeky EV egg mics. Let's me shuffle stuff around pretty easy. Am I making a mistake here? Haven't heard the e855s but have heard the 408s. I've also heard the Audix OM-5 is terrific. Unfortunately, can't play around and compare. If I put all three of these mics on a stand and knock the stand over, who's the contender? This kind of thing happens more often than I like on our crowded stage. I have E845s and Audix OM6s. I much prefer the Audix. IMHO Less peaky and smoother. Nice tight pattern. Equivalent build quality. I have an EV408 also, but I wouldn't use it for vocals with the Audix around. Nice on guitar cabs and drums though. You should be able to get either for @ $100 apiece (E845 new and OM6 used) on e-bay. |
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#19
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On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:24:43 +0800, "offpeak808"
wrote: I would spend the money for some very tight vocal mikes. It will help you a lot to have vocal mikes with less leakage, especially since you're already going to have a lot of PA leakage of vocals into the main pair. A few more SM57s wouldn't hurt, but it would be nice to have some vocal mikes that were a lot tighter than 57s. **thanks...but now choices choices...tight/cheap/flat, looks like a pair of Sennheiser e855s or maybe even a pair of the those geeky EV egg mics. Let's me shuffle stuff around pretty easy. Am I making a mistake here? Haven't heard the e855s but have heard the 408s. I've also heard the Audix OM-5 is terrific. Unfortunately, can't play around and compare. If I put all three of these mics on a stand and knock the stand over, who's the contender? This kind of thing happens more often than I like on our crowded stage. I have E845s and Audix OM6s. I much prefer the Audix. IMHO Less peaky and smoother. Nice tight pattern. Equivalent build quality. I have an EV408 also, but I wouldn't use it for vocals with the Audix around. Nice on guitar cabs and drums though. You should be able to get either for @ $100 apiece (E845 new and OM6 used) on e-bay. |
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#20
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offpeak808 wrote:
**thanks...but now choices choices...tight/cheap/flat, looks like a pair of Sennheiser e855s or maybe even a pair of the those geeky EV egg mics. Let's me shuffle stuff around pretty easy. Am I making a mistake here? Haven't heard the e855s but have heard the 408s. I've also heard the Audix OM-5 is terrific. Unfortunately, can't play around and compare. If I put all three of these mics on a stand and knock the stand over, who's the contender? This kind of thing happens more often than I like on our crowded stage. All of these are good choices. The e855 has more of a presence peak than the 408/468s do... the 408 is actually not bad at all as a vocal mike, even, but folks who are used to the presence peak might not like that. The OM-5 also has a presence peak and the top end is different, but it's also a great vocal mike. Of these, the 408 is probably the least expensive and the one that shows up most used. It certainly wouldn't hurt to have one of each of these. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#21
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Henri Minette wrote:
I have E845s and Audix OM6s. I much prefer the Audix. IMHO Less peaky and smoother. Nice tight pattern. Equivalent build quality. I have an EV408 also, but I wouldn't use it for vocals with the Audix around. Nice on guitar cabs and drums though. You should be able to get either for @ $100 apiece (E845 new and OM6 used) on e-bay. The e855 is a huge step up from the e845 both in terms of smoothness and directionality. The e835 should be avoided like the plague, also. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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