Hey all:

I have a small recording setup in my basement. I don't pretend it's a home
studio for recording other people - just myself for projects and ideas and
the occasional track for my band. I have a Mac iBook, MOTU 828 MkII, and
external fw drive. Workdesk is against a short wall, and unfortunately, the
monitors are too. Great little setup. My room is small - 8.5' W x 12.5' L
x 7.5' H.

I've been using an old home stereo system for monitors, but I'd like more
clarity, so I'm looking for something new. I'm thinking of acquiring some
used Event bas v.2 speakers, and am trying them out. The basic sound is
pretty good, but it seems to be that they feel too big in that small space,
and I'm moving around a lot to get the proper imaging. I turned the bass
control down a bit from the zero setting, but I feel like I'm just too close
to them. I'm thinking that I might find it easier listening with smaller
monitors with 6" or 6.5" woofers instead of 8" woofers.

I do mostly acoustic music so don't need the gut-wrenching bass and volume
that some folks do. However, i want it loud enough so that a guitar sounds
like a live guitar, and I want clear midranges.

So here's my question: Am I correct in thinking that monitors with 8"
woofers are just too damn big for my little space, and that I will get
better clarity and accurate imaging from smaller boxes? I'm not asking
whether this or that make of monitors is better, but rather am I going to
encounter problems with any mid field monitor when what I should be looking
at is slightly smaller nearfields.

Thanks in advance,
Carlos

Carlos,

Am I correct in thinking that monitors with 8" woofers are just too damn
big for my little space

I can't imagine why. Maybe one of those huge speaker boxes with a 30 inch
woofer would be too big. :-)

Seriously, the difference is mainly how low in frequency the speaker can
reproduce. To my mind the lower (and flatter) a speaker is, the better.

--Ethan

Carlos,

Am I correct in thinking that monitors with 8" woofers are just too damn
big for my little space

I can't imagine why. Maybe one of those huge speaker boxes with a 30 inch
woofer would be too big. :-)

Seriously, the difference is mainly how low in frequency the speaker can
reproduce. To my mind the lower (and flatter) a speaker is, the better.

--Ethan

Carlos Alden wrote:

I have a small recording setup in my basement. I don't pretend it's
a home studio for recording other people - just myself for projects
and ideas and the occasional track for my band. I have a Mac iBook,
MOTU 828 MkII, and external fw drive. Workdesk is against a short
wall, and unfortunately, the monitors are too. Great little setup.
My room is small - 8.5' W x 12.5' L x 7.5' H.

So here's my question: Am I correct in thinking that monitors with 8"
woofers are just too damn big for my little space, and that I will get
better clarity and accurate imaging from smaller boxes?

Not necessarily.

The low-frequency acoustics of closed rooms is such that, as the frequency
goes down there is some frequency, dependent on the size, shape and contents
of the room, where a more-or-less 12 dB/octave bass boost commences. This
is one reason why car audio systems often have so much bass - a small tight
room is easier to fill with bass.

Speakers tend to have a 12 dB/octave roll-off below some low frequency. If
you pick the exact right speakers for your room, the 12 dB roll-off due to
the speakers would exactly compensates for the 12 dB/octave bass boost of
the room, and you would have ideally flat response. And, if I win the
lottery I would be a rich man!

Regrettably, in this day and age you can't pick the bass roll-off point of
speakers just by looking at diaphragm size or spec sheets. I can probably
find speakers with 8" drivers where the bass cutoff point varies by up to
two octaves or perhaps more.

Regrettably, you also don't know the precise frequency where the natural
bass boost of your room cuts in and I don't know how to predict it from just
a set of dimensions. That may be mission impossible.

Rule of thumb is that it is far better to throw away bass response that you
have, than it is to not have enough bass to start with.

Furthermore, it may be possible to tune the bass response of your
room/speaker combination acoustically or electronically. I don't favor
equalizing the midrange of studio monitors, but electronically touching-up a
bass rise of this kind (not standing waves!) can work.

Finally, you just might like a system with a little extra warmth at the
bottom for monitoring and mixing. That would probably be pretty deadly for
mastering, but when you are mastering, you probably want to be referencing
a number of playback systems, not just one.

Carlos Alden wrote:

I have a small recording setup in my basement. I don't pretend it's
a home studio for recording other people - just myself for projects
and ideas and the occasional track for my band. I have a Mac iBook,
MOTU 828 MkII, and external fw drive. Workdesk is against a short
wall, and unfortunately, the monitors are too. Great little setup.
My room is small - 8.5' W x 12.5' L x 7.5' H.

So here's my question: Am I correct in thinking that monitors with 8"
woofers are just too damn big for my little space, and that I will get
better clarity and accurate imaging from smaller boxes?

Not necessarily.

The low-frequency acoustics of closed rooms is such that, as the frequency
goes down there is some frequency, dependent on the size, shape and contents
of the room, where a more-or-less 12 dB/octave bass boost commences. This
is one reason why car audio systems often have so much bass - a small tight
room is easier to fill with bass.

Speakers tend to have a 12 dB/octave roll-off below some low frequency. If
you pick the exact right speakers for your room, the 12 dB roll-off due to
the speakers would exactly compensates for the 12 dB/octave bass boost of
the room, and you would have ideally flat response. And, if I win the
lottery I would be a rich man!

Regrettably, in this day and age you can't pick the bass roll-off point of
speakers just by looking at diaphragm size or spec sheets. I can probably
find speakers with 8" drivers where the bass cutoff point varies by up to
two octaves or perhaps more.

Regrettably, you also don't know the precise frequency where the natural
bass boost of your room cuts in and I don't know how to predict it from just
a set of dimensions. That may be mission impossible.

Rule of thumb is that it is far better to throw away bass response that you
have, than it is to not have enough bass to start with.

Furthermore, it may be possible to tune the bass response of your
room/speaker combination acoustically or electronically. I don't favor
equalizing the midrange of studio monitors, but electronically touching-up a
bass rise of this kind (not standing waves!) can work.

Finally, you just might like a system with a little extra warmth at the
bottom for monitoring and mixing. That would probably be pretty deadly for
mastering, but when you are mastering, you probably want to be referencing
a number of playback systems, not just one.

Carlos Alden wrote:

I do mostly acoustic music so don't need the gut-wrenching bass and volume
that some folks do. However, i want it loud enough so that a guitar sounds
like a live guitar, and I want clear midranges.

No, you need bass extension too. And the reason you need is is so that you
know when there is unwanted low end material there.

So here's my question: Am I correct in thinking that monitors with 8"
woofers are just too damn big for my little space, and that I will get
better clarity and accurate imaging from smaller boxes? I'm not asking
whether this or that make of monitors is better, but rather am I going to
encounter problems with any mid field monitor when what I should be looking
at is slightly smaller nearfields.

I don't think so. I don't think you can have clean enough and accurate
enough bass, even if you're recording material that isn't bass-heavy.
Maybe especially if you're recording material that isn't bass-heavy.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Carlos Alden wrote:

I do mostly acoustic music so don't need the gut-wrenching bass and volume
that some folks do. However, i want it loud enough so that a guitar sounds
like a live guitar, and I want clear midranges.

No, you need bass extension too. And the reason you need is is so that you
know when there is unwanted low end material there.

So here's my question: Am I correct in thinking that monitors with 8"
woofers are just too damn big for my little space, and that I will get
better clarity and accurate imaging from smaller boxes? I'm not asking
whether this or that make of monitors is better, but rather am I going to
encounter problems with any mid field monitor when what I should be looking
at is slightly smaller nearfields.

I don't think so. I don't think you can have clean enough and accurate
enough bass, even if you're recording material that isn't bass-heavy.
Maybe especially if you're recording material that isn't bass-heavy.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Carlos Alden" wrote
...
Hey all:

I have a small recording setup in my basement. I don't pretend it's a
home
studio for recording other people - just myself for projects and ideas and
the occasional track for my band. I have a Mac iBook, MOTU 828 MkII, and
external fw drive. Workdesk is against a short wall, and unfortunately,
the
monitors are too. Great little setup. My room is small - 8.5' W x 12.5'
L
x 7.5' H.

I've been using an old home stereo system for monitors, but I'd like more
clarity, so I'm looking for something new. I'm thinking of acquiring some
used Event bas v.2 speakers, and am trying them out. The basic sound is
pretty good, but it seems to be that they feel too big in that small
space,
and I'm moving around a lot to get the proper imaging. I turned the bass
control down a bit from the zero setting, but I feel like I'm just too
close
to them. I'm thinking that I might find it easier listening with smaller
monitors with 6" or 6.5" woofers instead of 8" woofers.

I do mostly acoustic music so don't need the gut-wrenching bass and volume
that some folks do. However, i want it loud enough so that a guitar
sounds
like a live guitar, and I want clear midranges.

So here's my question: Am I correct in thinking that monitors with 8"
woofers are just too damn big for my little space, and that I will get
better clarity and accurate imaging from smaller boxes? I'm not asking
whether this or that make of monitors is better, but rather am I going to
encounter problems with any mid field monitor when what I should be
looking
at is slightly smaller nearfields.

Thanks in advance,
Carlos

Maybe you can do something to improve your room:
http://www.marktaw.com/print/recordi...hCourse1-Mod.h
tml

"Carlos Alden" wrote
...
Hey all:

I have a small recording setup in my basement. I don't pretend it's a
home
studio for recording other people - just myself for projects and ideas and
the occasional track for my band. I have a Mac iBook, MOTU 828 MkII, and
external fw drive. Workdesk is against a short wall, and unfortunately,
the
monitors are too. Great little setup. My room is small - 8.5' W x 12.5'
L
x 7.5' H.

I've been using an old home stereo system for monitors, but I'd like more
clarity, so I'm looking for something new. I'm thinking of acquiring some
used Event bas v.2 speakers, and am trying them out. The basic sound is
pretty good, but it seems to be that they feel too big in that small
space,
and I'm moving around a lot to get the proper imaging. I turned the bass
control down a bit from the zero setting, but I feel like I'm just too
close
to them. I'm thinking that I might find it easier listening with smaller
monitors with 6" or 6.5" woofers instead of 8" woofers.

I do mostly acoustic music so don't need the gut-wrenching bass and volume
that some folks do. However, i want it loud enough so that a guitar
sounds
like a live guitar, and I want clear midranges.

So here's my question: Am I correct in thinking that monitors with 8"
woofers are just too damn big for my little space, and that I will get
better clarity and accurate imaging from smaller boxes? I'm not asking
whether this or that make of monitors is better, but rather am I going to
encounter problems with any mid field monitor when what I should be
looking
at is slightly smaller nearfields.

Thanks in advance,
Carlos

Maybe you can do something to improve your room:
http://www.marktaw.com/print/recordi...hCourse1-Mod.h
tml

The basic sound is
pretty good, but it seems to be that they feel too big in that small space,
and I'm moving around a lot to get the proper imaging. I turned the bass
control down a bit from the zero setting, but I feel like I'm just too close
to them. I'm thinking that I might find it easier listening with smaller
monitors with 6" or 6.5" woofers instead of 8" woofers.

I wouldn't intentionally try to get less bass response from the monitor system.
How are you going to know if a "P" really is popped if you don't have some
response at 35Hz? You won't hear it on NS10's but it will just sound like inept
engineering if it's there & reproduced on a nice home system with real woofers.

Scott Fraser

The basic sound is
pretty good, but it seems to be that they feel too big in that small space,
and I'm moving around a lot to get the proper imaging. I turned the bass
control down a bit from the zero setting, but I feel like I'm just too close
to them. I'm thinking that I might find it easier listening with smaller
monitors with 6" or 6.5" woofers instead of 8" woofers.

I wouldn't intentionally try to get less bass response from the monitor system.
How are you going to know if a "P" really is popped if you don't have some
response at 35Hz? You won't hear it on NS10's but it will just sound like inept
engineering if it's there & reproduced on a nice home system with real woofers.

Scott Fraser

in article ,
at wrote on 6/7/04 11:02 AM:


Thanks to Richard, Scot, and others for your helpful comments on this
questions. I think that I just need to get accustomed to the larger size
of these monitors compared to what I had been working with. They basically
sound fine.

Carlos

in article ,
at wrote on 6/7/04 11:02 AM:


Thanks to Richard, Scot, and others for your helpful comments on this
questions. I think that I just need to get accustomed to the larger size
of these monitors compared to what I had been working with. They basically
sound fine.

Carlos

If your workstation is up against a wall, any speaker is going to represent
false information to you, either through acoustic coupling of the speaker to
vertical surfaces like the walls and corners, or you will end up with early
reflections that will smear the stereo image, negating the idea of buying
new speakers for clearer mixing.

I'm not much out of whack with what you have, although I'm out of whack with
any real decent mixing environment. With my desk against the long wall, I
have my speakers on stands about 19" out from the corners of the short wall.
Luckily they are directly in front of tons of books (another 19"), and I
almost mean that literally. So my workspace doesn't let me mix while
listening in the sweetspot, which means I have to do a lot of mix changes
and stop and just listen. It's not an easy way to work, but it allows me
the time to distinguish whether I'm making mistakes or not, and the best
thing is that my 8" two way JBLs do not sound too big for the room. Were
they closer to the walls and/or corners of the room, I'd be asking for even
more serious problems than I already know exist.

So, to me, the answer is no, 8" two ways are not too big for the room, but
you must understand that they need their space so you have to work around
that requirement.

Check on Ethan's Real Traps too. By running your speakers sound along the
long walls, it might be that some acoustic taming will be required. If you
can't afford them, look at www.ethanwiner.com and read his article on bass
traps and get his earlier design to build some of your own.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Carlos Alden" wrote in message
...
Hey all:

I have a small recording setup in my basement. I don't pretend it's a
home
studio for recording other people - just myself for projects and ideas and
the occasional track for my band. I have a Mac iBook, MOTU 828 MkII, and
external fw drive. Workdesk is against a short wall, and unfortunately,
the
monitors are too. Great little setup. My room is small - 8.5' W x 12.5'
L
x 7.5' H.

I've been using an old home stereo system for monitors, but I'd like more
clarity, so I'm looking for something new. I'm thinking of acquiring some
used Event bas v.2 speakers, and am trying them out. The basic sound is
pretty good, but it seems to be that they feel too big in that small
space,
and I'm moving around a lot to get the proper imaging. I turned the bass
control down a bit from the zero setting, but I feel like I'm just too
close
to them. I'm thinking that I might find it easier listening with smaller
monitors with 6" or 6.5" woofers instead of 8" woofers.

I do mostly acoustic music so don't need the gut-wrenching bass and volume
that some folks do. However, i want it loud enough so that a guitar
sounds
like a live guitar, and I want clear midranges.

So here's my question: Am I correct in thinking that monitors with 8"
woofers are just too damn big for my little space, and that I will get
better clarity and accurate imaging from smaller boxes? I'm not asking
whether this or that make of monitors is better, but rather am I going to
encounter problems with any mid field monitor when what I should be
looking
at is slightly smaller nearfields.

Thanks in advance,
Carlos

If your workstation is up against a wall, any speaker is going to represent
false information to you, either through acoustic coupling of the speaker to
vertical surfaces like the walls and corners, or you will end up with early
reflections that will smear the stereo image, negating the idea of buying
new speakers for clearer mixing.

I'm not much out of whack with what you have, although I'm out of whack with
any real decent mixing environment. With my desk against the long wall, I
have my speakers on stands about 19" out from the corners of the short wall.
Luckily they are directly in front of tons of books (another 19"), and I
almost mean that literally. So my workspace doesn't let me mix while
listening in the sweetspot, which means I have to do a lot of mix changes
and stop and just listen. It's not an easy way to work, but it allows me
the time to distinguish whether I'm making mistakes or not, and the best
thing is that my 8" two way JBLs do not sound too big for the room. Were
they closer to the walls and/or corners of the room, I'd be asking for even
more serious problems than I already know exist.

So, to me, the answer is no, 8" two ways are not too big for the room, but
you must understand that they need their space so you have to work around
that requirement.

Check on Ethan's Real Traps too. By running your speakers sound along the
long walls, it might be that some acoustic taming will be required. If you
can't afford them, look at www.ethanwiner.com and read his article on bass
traps and get his earlier design to build some of your own.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Carlos Alden" wrote in message
...
Hey all:

I have a small recording setup in my basement. I don't pretend it's a
home
studio for recording other people - just myself for projects and ideas and
the occasional track for my band. I have a Mac iBook, MOTU 828 MkII, and
external fw drive. Workdesk is against a short wall, and unfortunately,
the
monitors are too. Great little setup. My room is small - 8.5' W x 12.5'
L
x 7.5' H.

I've been using an old home stereo system for monitors, but I'd like more
clarity, so I'm looking for something new. I'm thinking of acquiring some
used Event bas v.2 speakers, and am trying them out. The basic sound is
pretty good, but it seems to be that they feel too big in that small
space,
and I'm moving around a lot to get the proper imaging. I turned the bass
control down a bit from the zero setting, but I feel like I'm just too
close
to them. I'm thinking that I might find it easier listening with smaller
monitors with 6" or 6.5" woofers instead of 8" woofers.

I do mostly acoustic music so don't need the gut-wrenching bass and volume
that some folks do. However, i want it loud enough so that a guitar
sounds
like a live guitar, and I want clear midranges.

So here's my question: Am I correct in thinking that monitors with 8"
woofers are just too damn big for my little space, and that I will get
better clarity and accurate imaging from smaller boxes? I'm not asking
whether this or that make of monitors is better, but rather am I going to
encounter problems with any mid field monitor when what I should be
looking
at is slightly smaller nearfields.

Thanks in advance,
Carlos

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On 2004-06-07 said:
I have a small recording setup in my basement. I don't pretend
it's a home studio for recording other people - just myself for
projects and ideas and the occasional track for my band. I have a
Mac iBook, MOTU 828 MkII, and external fw drive. Workdesk is
against a short wall, and unfortunately, the monitors are too.
Great little setup. My room is small - 8.5' W x 12.5' L x 7.5' H.
snip
thinking that I might find it easier listening with smaller
monitors with 6" or 6.5" woofers instead of 8" woofers. I do mostly
acoustic music so don't need the gut-wrenching bass and volume that
some folks do. However, i want it loud enough so that a guitar
sounds like a live guitar, and I want clear midranges. So here's my
question: Am I correct in thinking that monitors with 8" woofers
are just too damn big for my little space, and that I will get
better clarity and accurate imaging from smaller boxes?
LEt's review a couple of principles just in case. At your work
position your monitors and your head should form an equilateral
triangle.

IF you've got that part right look to your acoustic space. NOte the
frequencies where the bass is overly loud, in this rented space my
control room has a real problem with THe lowest B you can find on a 4
string bass. DOn't know how long I'm going to be here so haven't
really bothered to treat the room. Just learn to mix around it.

Look at some possible treatment options for your room and see what you
can do. Have not heard the particular model of speakers you reference
so don't know about them. Get used to listening to other material on
them (especially stuff you know well) and that will help as well.

HOpe that helps a bit.



Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 14:02:53 EDT
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 18:02:53 GMT
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1077374


On 2004-06-07 said:
I have a small recording setup in my basement. I don't pretend
it's a home studio for recording other people - just myself for
projects and ideas and the occasional track for my band. I have a
Mac iBook, MOTU 828 MkII, and external fw drive. Workdesk is
against a short wall, and unfortunately, the monitors are too.
Great little setup. My room is small - 8.5' W x 12.5' L x 7.5' H.
snip
thinking that I might find it easier listening with smaller
monitors with 6" or 6.5" woofers instead of 8" woofers. I do mostly
acoustic music so don't need the gut-wrenching bass and volume that
some folks do. However, i want it loud enough so that a guitar
sounds like a live guitar, and I want clear midranges. So here's my
question: Am I correct in thinking that monitors with 8" woofers
are just too damn big for my little space, and that I will get
better clarity and accurate imaging from smaller boxes?
LEt's review a couple of principles just in case. At your work
position your monitors and your head should form an equilateral
triangle.

IF you've got that part right look to your acoustic space. NOte the
frequencies where the bass is overly loud, in this rented space my
control room has a real problem with THe lowest B you can find on a 4
string bass. DOn't know how long I'm going to be here so haven't
really bothered to treat the room. Just learn to mix around it.

Look at some possible treatment options for your room and see what you
can do. Have not heard the particular model of speakers you reference
so don't know about them. Get used to listening to other material on
them (especially stuff you know well) and that will help as well.

HOpe that helps a bit.



Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--