I am building some experimental pickups for ukeleles, mandolins,
harpsichords, and other totally custom steel-stringed instruments, and
need to build some odd-sized pickups from scratch (to accomodate
different string spacing, # of strings, etc). I have a book on pickup
winding, though it looks like the bobbin sizes will need to be custom
(it will vary with each instrument).

Anyway, I was wondering if I could use an existing coil from some
electronic component - just stick a pole piece in the middle and put a
magnet underneath and voila!

Does anyone know what electronic parts, if any, would somewhat match a
guitar or similar pickup in magnet wire gauge and # of wraps, and
other properties, to sound decent with the right magnet underneath,
and is the right size to fit a guitar-ish pole piece inside?

I am sure I have seen something like this over the years from taking
apart old radios, etc.

I would rather pursue this route if possible, than spending a ton of $
on custom pickups, or a ton of work/time on building a bobbin &
wrapping it from scratch.

Any help appreciated!

(Mad Scientist) wrote:

I am building some experimental pickups for ukeleles, mandolins,
harpsichords, and other totally custom steel-stringed instruments, and
need to build some odd-sized pickups from scratch (to accomodate
different string spacing, # of strings, etc). I have a book on pickup
winding, though it looks like the bobbin sizes will need to be custom
(it will vary with each instrument).

Anyway, I was wondering if I could use an existing coil from some
electronic component - just stick a pole piece in the middle and put a
magnet underneath and voila!

Does anyone know what electronic parts, if any, would somewhat match a
guitar or similar pickup in magnet wire gauge and # of wraps, and
other properties, to sound decent with the right magnet underneath,
and is the right size to fit a guitar-ish pole piece inside?

I am sure I have seen something like this over the years from taking
apart old radios, etc.

I would rather pursue this route if possible, than spending a ton of $
on custom pickups, or a ton of work/time on building a bobbin &
wrapping it from scratch.

Any help appreciated!

The old Charlie Christian model Gibson pickup design would work well for this.
It used a bar magnet inside the guitar, connected to a iron blade piece which
slid into a slot in the coil. Not a great top end, but wonderful tone.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

On 6 May 2004 09:15:51 -0700, (Mad Scientist)
wrote:

I am building some experimental pickups for ukeleles, mandolins,
harpsichords, and other totally custom steel-stringed instruments, and
need to build some odd-sized pickups from scratch (to accomodate
different string spacing, # of strings, etc). I have a book on pickup
winding, though it looks like the bobbin sizes will need to be custom
(it will vary with each instrument).

Anyway, I was wondering if I could use an existing coil from some
electronic component - just stick a pole piece in the middle and put a
magnet underneath and voila!

Does anyone know what electronic parts, if any, would somewhat match a
guitar or similar pickup in magnet wire gauge and # of wraps, and
other properties, to sound decent with the right magnet underneath,
and is the right size to fit a guitar-ish pole piece inside?

Yes, perhaps the coil(s) from the motor of an electric clock, or
similar small low-power 120VAC-powered synchronous motor. You might
find these in an old microwave oven, in the geared-down motor
underneath that turns the turntable, or the motor that suspends and
turns that old mirrored ball you're no longer using...
Be aware that all of these coils will be round (so if it has a
large opening it might be good for maybe two courses of a mandolin),
and also, due to the large number of turns of thin wire, these coils
(as well as 'real' guitar pickups) usually have a self-resonance in
the audible range. IIRC, guitar pickups are commonly self-resonant in
the 5kHz to 10kHz range, and the frequency and Q of the resonance
strongly affects tone (I'm not THAT knowledgable on pickups, but I
suspect the resonance is the biggest contributor to a pickup's sound).
Random coils from other sources will have random resonances, and even
a small increase or decrease in the amount of wire can substantially
affect resonance (adding wire increases both inductance and
capacitance, and both contribute to lowering the self-resonant
frequency). So it will be a crap shoot.

You might also look through electronics surplus catalogs such as
allelectronics.com and bgmicro.com for a coil that might be what you
want.

I am sure I have seen something like this over the years from taking
apart old radios, etc.

I would rather pursue this route if possible, than spending a ton of $
on custom pickups, or a ton of work/time on building a bobbin &
wrapping it from scratch.

It might be worth it to do it yourself. With a little experience
you should be able to figure out just how many turns on a coil gives
you the exact 'tone' you want.

Any help appreciated!

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

Check out http://www.lollarguitars.com/ -- Jason probably could answer
some of your questions.

Al

On 6 May 2004 09:15:51 -0700, (Mad Scientist)
wrote:

I am building some experimental pickups for ukeleles, mandolins,
harpsichords, and other totally custom steel-stringed instruments, and
need to build some odd-sized pickups from scratch (to accomodate
different string spacing, # of strings, etc). I have a book on pickup
winding, though it looks like the bobbin sizes will need to be custom
(it will vary with each instrument).

Anyway, I was wondering if I could use an existing coil from some
electronic component - just stick a pole piece in the middle and put a
magnet underneath and voila!

Does anyone know what electronic parts, if any, would somewhat match a
guitar or similar pickup in magnet wire gauge and # of wraps, and
other properties, to sound decent with the right magnet underneath,
and is the right size to fit a guitar-ish pole piece inside?

I am sure I have seen something like this over the years from taking
apart old radios, etc.

I would rather pursue this route if possible, than spending a ton of $
on custom pickups, or a ton of work/time on building a bobbin &
wrapping it from scratch.

Any help appreciated!

thanks everyone for your replies.
lollar guitars is where i got that pickup winding book,
i will indeed ask them !

In article ,
Mad Scientist wrote:
I am building some experimental pickups for ukeleles, mandolins,
harpsichords, and other totally custom steel-stringed instruments, and
need to build some odd-sized pickups from scratch (to accomodate
different string spacing, # of strings, etc). I have a book on pickup
winding, though it looks like the bobbin sizes will need to be custom
(it will vary with each instrument).

Anyway, I was wondering if I could use an existing coil from some
electronic component - just stick a pole piece in the middle and put a
magnet underneath and voila!

Sure, but you'd probably want your coil to have some specific
dimensions and also want it to be somewhat compact. The chances of
finding a coil that is physically appropriate, has the right gauge of
wire and number of turns sounds pretty unlikely...

I'd recommend winding your own instead. If you can rig up something
to hold and rotate a spool of magnet wire and something to hold and
rotate the bobbin / polepieces and attach a counter to the polepiece
part, you can wind your own quite easily.

Don't forget to pot your coil after it's wound to reduce microphonics.
Beeswax and paraffin are commonly used, but search the 'net for a
workable procedure.


Regards,

Monte McGuire

Actually I bought the Lollar guitar book on building a pickup winding
machine (see lollarguitars.com)... The book is very informative, but
making that machine is INVOLVED! I would recommend it to someone who
has the time, but I don't have the resources right now for something
like that. I can try experimenting with building a simple winder like
you described though (the Lollar machine seems very precise, and
automatic, but it's not something you can throw together in a couple
of hours). A long time ago before I knew anything, I actually built a
pickup by hand, using radio shack wire. Needless to say it wasn't very
responsive. If you play the guitar through a fully cranked marshall,
it has a warm clean tone (no fuzz at all). I have potted pickups
before with parafin wax. I must have gotten lucky because the pickup
didn't melt.

(Mad Scientist) wrote in message . com...
Actually I bought the Lollar guitar book on building a pickup winding
machine (see lollarguitars.com)... The book is very informative, but
making that machine is INVOLVED! I would recommend it to someone who
has the time, but I don't have the resources right now for something
like that. I can try experimenting with building a simple winder like
you described though (the Lollar machine seems very precise, and
automatic, but it's not something you can throw together in a couple
of hours). A long time ago before I knew anything, I actually built a
pickup by hand, using radio shack wire. Needless to say it wasn't very
responsive. If you play the guitar through a fully cranked marshall,
it has a warm clean tone (no fuzz at all). I have potted pickups
before with parafin wax. I must have gotten lucky because the pickup
didn't melt.

If you used something from Radio Shack's limited selection of magnet
wire you probably used too big a gauge, since they don't offer
anything small enough, and you wound up with a pickup with much lower
impedence (and much less output voltage) than a regular guitar pickup.
Years ago I rewound a Telecaster pickup by hand (with small gauge
magnet wire left over from rewinding slot car motors years before
that) and it sounded great. Of course I also built a little one
transistor low impedence input pre-amp into that guitar as well.

In article writes:

I'd recommend winding your own instead. If you can rig up something
to hold and rotate a spool of magnet wire and something to hold and
rotate the bobbin / polepieces and attach a counter to the polepiece
part, you can wind your own quite easily.

My friendly local pickup rewinder (who I last saw work close to 20
years ago) used a variable speed electric drill clamped in a vise.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

If you used something from Radio Shack's limited selection of magnet
wire you probably used too big a gauge, since they don't offer

Would you recommend anyone in particular for ordering 42 gauge single
build polyurethane nylon 155 eg. C temperature solderable wire?

Stewart MacDonald sells it.
-mike
"Mad Scientist" wrote in message
m...
If you used something from Radio Shack's limited selection of magnet
wire you probably used too big a gauge, since they don't offer

Would you recommend anyone in particular for ordering 42 gauge single
build polyurethane nylon 155 eg. C temperature solderable wire?

Mad Scientist wrote:
If you used something from Radio Shack's limited selection of magnet
wire you probably used too big a gauge, since they don't offer

Would you recommend anyone in particular for ordering 42 gauge single
build polyurethane nylon 155 eg. C temperature solderable wire?

42 ga stuff is microfine. I do not think the Belden catalogue does any
finer than 38 ga, and you'll have trouble finding anything that size cheap
on the surplus market.

If you really need to go that fine, try MWS Wire Industries in Westlake
Village, CA. They have the best selection of magnet wires around although
they may not be willing to sell small quantities. If you only need a
thousand feet or so, they might be able to sell the end of a reel off,
so it's worth asking them anyway.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Stewart MacDonald sells it.

web site?

thanks... will look into them

In article ,
(Mad Scientist) wrote:

Stewart MacDonald sells it.

web site?

http://www.stew-mac.com/

They also come up as the first result if you search on Google.

--
Maurice Rickard
http://mauricerickard.com/ | http://onezeromusic.com/

Scott Dorsey wrote:

42 ga stuff is microfine. I do not think the Belden catalogue does any
finer than 38 ga, and you'll have trouble finding anything that size cheap
on the surplus market.

Microfine is the WORD! I had a bass pickup die years ago (was a
cheapo japanese clone). So I figured, hey, I got all kinds of electronic
stuff, so I'll rewind it. So I dug through my entire (extensive)
stock of magnet wire and then through my bin of coils etc. NONE
were nearly fine enough! I tried to buy some small wire from regular
electronic houses (They had MUCH bigger stock then than now!) Nothing
in the micro-fine catagory. So I eventually just wound a new coil
with the finest stuff I had. Don't remember the gauge, but as I
recall it was from a huge coil from one of those old time speakers
that used B+ to power an electromagnet rather than a permenant
magnet structure. It was pretty fine stuff.

The bottom line of all this was very interesting. I tried out the
new pickup and the output was VERY low! But then all of a sudden
I thought, hey, wait a minute, I'm using the same magnets as the
original. The same bobbin space is filled up. It's the same magnetic
structure and distance from the strings, this thing MUST be putting
out the same energy as the original! Only the impedance has changed!!!

As it turned out, that was exactly correct! I simply ran the new
pickup coil into a reasonably decent mic to grid transformer and
voila! The new pickup sounded as good as the original. In fact,
it was BETTER! For one thing it was brighter! With the zillion
turns of hyperfine wire, you get beaucoup stray capacitance
to roll off highs. With the Lo Z pickup (It turns out with *finest*
wire I had I ended up with a pickup about the same as a lo-Z mic!)
you not only reduce capacitance, but also it's perfect for driving
long cables (just like a mic). It seems someone tried to market
this idea a while back but it wasn't very popular. With a bass
you did have to use a high quality transformer or tone suffered.
Eventually I mounted the transformer on the bass rather than at the
amp for the practical reason of being able to plug this and that
gutiar into a given cable without dealing with external transformers
though it wasn't as ideal. Also when a instrument is active you need
the signal transformed at the electronics which are in the guitar.

I still like the idea of LOW Z guitar outputs with transformer
at the amp to drive long cables and cut back on nasty hum
pickup. There are some pratical considerations though.

Benj

--
Due to SPAM innundation above address is turned off!

In article writes:

I eventually just wound a new coil
with the finest stuff I had. Don't remember the gauge, but as I
recall it was from a huge coil from one of those old time speakers
that used B+ to power an electromagnet rather than a permenant
magnet structure. It was pretty fine stuff.

Probably somewhere between #26 and #30. Those old radios often used
the field coil in the speaker as the power supply filter choke, so it
had to carry a few dozen milliamps of current.

The bottom line of all this was very interesting. I tried out the
new pickup and the output was VERY low! But then all of a sudden
I thought, hey, wait a minute, I'm using the same magnets as the
original. The same bobbin space is filled up. It's the same magnetic
structure and distance from the strings, this thing MUST be putting
out the same energy as the original! Only the impedance has changed!!!

As it turned out, that was exactly correct! I simply ran the new
pickup coil into a reasonably decent mic to grid transformer and
voila! The new pickup sounded as good as the original. In fact,
it was BETTER!

Both Chet Atkins and Les Paul (and I'm sure many less notable guitar
experimenters) have used low impedance pickups on occasoin. In fact
there was even a Les Paul Recording Professional model which had an
XLR connector, designed to go into a companion amplifier with a high
gain, low impedance input, similar to a mic preamp.

Another advantage of having a transformer input at the amplifier is
that it's balanced, and you get the benefit of the common mode
rejection of noise and hum picked up by the cable. This doesn't help
reduce hum picked up by the pickup assembly itself (after all, this is
exactly what a pickup is designed to do) but every little bit of noise
that you can lose "for free" helps.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article , wrote:

I still like the idea of LOW Z guitar outputs with transformer
at the amp to drive long cables and cut back on nasty hum
pickup. There are some pratical considerations though.

I agree. I think the Les Paul Recording pickup, with the appropriate amp,
is a great jazz sound.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."