"Mark Simonetti" wrote in message

Of course it will. And its instanteious velocity is added to the
instantaneous velocity due to the upper note.

Okay, but it seems like people are saying that this isn't the case,
and is the reason doppler distortion would NOT occur, which seems
plain bizzare, IMHO.

So bizarre, that it is in fact fallacious.

Surely, as the lower frequency moves the cone
back and forth, which at the same time is vibrating to create the
higher frequency, that is IDENTICAL to moving a single vibrating
source back and forth, like the train analogy (except the train
doesn't move back and forth unless the driver is very confused).

Agreed.

Therefore, the doppler effect surely DOES occur.

Agreed.

It just seems really obvious, so I must be missing the whole point of
this, I'm no physics scientist !

I've got two years of physics, an undergraduate degree in engineering and
completed most of my MSE except for my thesis project (wife's pregnancy
ended that). I've also measured it quite conclusively in the lab. I've been
reading papers about it for like 30 years in the JAES and JASA. Yes, I think
that Doppler distortion exist in speakers, but no I don't think it is a
serious issue. In contrast the AM distortion in speakers is a very serious,
audible issue.

Arny Krueger wrote:

I've got two years of physics, an undergraduate degree in engineering and
completed most of my MSE except for my thesis project (wife's pregnancy
ended that). I've also measured it quite conclusively in the lab. I've been
reading papers about it for like 30 years in the JAES and JASA. Yes, I think
that Doppler distortion exist in speakers, but no I don't think it is a
serious issue. In contrast the AM distortion in speakers is a very serious,
audible issue.

This is a reasonable assessment of the situation. The thing about doppler
modulation, though, is that it's really interesting and the math is a lot
of fun. Not like typical AM distortion from amplitude nonlinearities, which
is dull, even if it's a more significant problem. So I think folks should
continue investigating doppler distortion because it's an interesting problem
even if not a terribly important one.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

I've got two years of physics, an undergraduate degree in
engineering and completed most of my MSE except for my thesis
project (wife's pregnancy ended that). I've also measured it quite
conclusively in the lab. I've been reading papers about it for like
30 years in the JAES and JASA. Yes, I think that Doppler distortion
exist in speakers, but no I don't think it is a serious issue. In
contrast the AM distortion in speakers is a very serious, audible
issue.

This is a reasonable assessment of the situation. The thing about
doppler modulation, though, is that it's really interesting and the
math is a lot of fun. Not like typical AM distortion from amplitude
nonlinearities, which is dull, even if it's a more significant
problem. So I think folks should continue investigating doppler
distortion because it's an interesting problem even if not a terribly
important one.

Thanks, Scott. The other thing about Doppler is that it is in some sense
irreducable, and even something that modern speaker development trends seem
to want to increase.

Some of my informants argue that in fact speakers are about as linear as
they ever will be, and that the only remaining approach is to make them
cheaper, smaller, and put their nonlinearities where they won't sound so
objectionable.

This whole discussion traces back to another discussion on another audio
groups about a month ago. My opponent in that discussion seems to have
considerably changed his position in the past month in a good way, but he
still abuses my name. So goes life!

Arny Krueger wrote:

Some of my informants argue that in fact speakers are about as linear as
they ever will be, and that the only remaining approach is to make them
cheaper, smaller, and put their nonlinearities where they won't sound so
objectionable.

If speakers are as linear as they ever will be, I'm giving up this whole
industry and going out to listen only to live music. If this is as good
as it gets, it's a total waste.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

Some of my informants argue that in fact speakers are about as
linear as they ever will be, and that the only remaining approach is
to make them cheaper, smaller, and put their nonlinearities where
they won't sound so objectionable.

If speakers are as linear as they ever will be, I'm giving up this
whole industry and going out to listen only to live music. If this

I'm almost with you, Scott.

If speakers are as linear as they ever will be, I'm giving up this whole
industry and going out to listen only to live music. If this is as good
as it gets, it's a total waste.

If you're talking about simple harmonic and IM distortion, I'm inclined to agree
there isn't much room for improvement. But there is great room for improvement
in other areas.

Scott Dorsey wrote:

So I think folks should
continue investigating doppler distortion because it's an interesting problem
even if not a terribly important one.

Mostly agreed. The extent to which unbelievably small
effects are claimed to be audible on the ProAudio mailing
list, if they are other than imagination, does push any such
effects like we are talking about into an arena at least
worth discussing, if not important. It wouldn't take much
_at all_ to swamp the things they consider very important.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

"Bob Cain" wrote in message

Scott Dorsey wrote:

So I think folks should
continue investigating doppler distortion because it's an
interesting problem even if not a terribly important one.

Mostly agreed. The extent to which unbelievably small
effects are claimed to be audible on the ProAudio mailing
list, if they are other than imagination, does push any such
effects like we are talking about into an arena at least
worth discussing, if not important.

The point is well taken. Gosh, I even brought it up about a week ago and our
resident opamp wine tasters completely missed it.

Go figure!

It wouldn't take much
_at all_ to swamp the things they consider very important.

Speaker Doppler as insignificant as it is, is positively huge compared to
the errors that a common nasty old 5532 or TL072 makes in most audio
circuits.

Arny Krueger wrote:

Speaker Doppler as insignificant as it is, is positively huge compared to
the errors that a common nasty old 5532 or TL072 makes in most audio
circuits.

What's that say about the known and much larger non-linear
effects in speakers that we all know and love? I think the
guys that claim to hear these miniscule phase and dither
differences played back through the best of the available
speakers are blowing smoke...

They argue about what they hear as a function of a couple of
degrees of phase shift at Nyquist and the kind of dither
applied to get to 24 bits!

I notice that the one thing they are too totally polite to
ever do is question each other's "golden" ears despite the
differences among themselves in what they hear. Feet of
clay all around, perhaps.

It was my annoyance and disbelief in all of this that
motivated me to look hard at Doppler distortion and find a
way to quantify it. The rest, as they say, is history. :-)

Actually, I am quite happy to find that it exists, if not
for the usual reasons given, because of this original
motivation.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

"Bob Cain" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

Speaker Doppler as insignificant as it is, is positively huge
compared to the errors that a common nasty old 5532 or TL072 makes
in most audio circuits.

What's that say about the known and much larger non-linear
effects in speakers that we all know and love?

They are there, and distract our ears from the itty-bitty ones.

I think the guys that claim to hear these miniscule phase and dither
differences played back through the best of the available
speakers are blowing smoke...

The rubber hits the road in a blind, level-matched, time-synched,
bias-controlled listening test. They routinely lose out.

They argue about what they hear as a function of a couple of
degrees of phase shift at Nyquist and the kind of dither
applied to get to 24 bits!

Obviously they don't have a lot of good listening experiments under their
belt. Cut your chops on good listening tests and you start singing a
different song.

I notice that the one thing they are too totally polite to
ever do is question each other's "golden" ears despite the
differences among themselves in what they hear. Feet of
clay all around, perhaps.

As long as they stay away from ABX and the like, their belief structures are
preserved.

It was my annoyance and disbelief in all of this that
motivated me to look hard at Doppler distortion and find a
way to quantify it. The rest, as they say, is history. :-)

It's there!

Actually, I am quite happy to find that it exists, if not
for the usual reasons given, because of this original
motivation.

The point is that AM distortion, which dominates and is relatively large in
speakers, and often pretty audible, is only present in good electronics in
far smaller quantities. Masking rules, we hear distortion in speakers far
more so than in non-clipping, non-noisy electronics.

Arny Krueger wrote:


It was my annoyance and disbelief in all of this that
motivated me to look hard at Doppler distortion and find a
way to quantify it. The rest, as they say, is history. :-)


It's there!

In the far field. Near field tests that show any measurable
amount of it are still highly suspect.

The point is that AM distortion, which dominates and is relatively large in
speakers, and often pretty audible, is only present in good electronics in
far smaller quantities. Masking rules, we hear distortion in speakers far
more so than in non-clipping, non-noisy electronics.

OTOH, aren't the AM products that speakers generate mostly
the "warmth" generating kind that people seem to like in
small amounts? That's not to say that it still isn't
swamping the smaller effects.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

In this place, Arny Krueger was recorded saying ...

[.. snip ..]

The point is that AM distortion, which dominates and is relatively large in
speakers, and often pretty audible, is only present in good electronics in
far smaller quantities. Masking rules, we hear distortion in speakers far
more so than in non-clipping, non-noisy electronics.

Just a while ago Arny, you were proclaiming the awful sound of a coupe
of well known power amplifiers.

If speaker distortions so outweigh those contributed by electronics,
does that mean (a) that you can't, in fact, tell the difference between
two differing power amps connected to the same speakers or (b) that you
have joined the "golden ears" set? ;^)

--

George
Newcastle, England

Problems worthy of attack
Prove their worth, by hitting back [Piet Hein]

Arny Krueger wrote:
Speaker Doppler as insignificant as it is, is positively huge compared to
the errors that a common nasty old 5532 or TL072 makes in most audio
circuits.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is a 5532 and a TL072 ? What
problems are they causing ? I know I could look it up (and I just have)
but others may be curious too. I find all this interesting.

You'd be surprised (or perhaps not) how many people really aren't
bothered about hearing nice clear audio through a decent system, never
mind the (small?) distortions we are discussing in this NG. Sometimes I
think its because people don't realise what they are missing. Even with
my modest set up, I've bought a smile to the face of some people who've
sat and listened to my relatively good system, compared to your average
low end extremely coloured systems (complete with "3D" sound
"enhancement" and all that)..

I think others who refer to us, who do care, as anal about it perhaps do
not appreciate music in the same way. To me there is nothing better
than hearing the subtle beautiful tones of a well recorded well played
piano or acoustic guitar; these are just plain invisible or distorted on
a lot of todays cheap crap, and people are getting used to it.

Disclaimer: IMHO, YMMV, etc.

Cheers.

--
Mark Simonetti.
Freelance Software Engineer.

Mark Simonetti wrote:
I think others who refer to us, who do care, as anal about it perhaps do
not appreciate music in the same way. To me there is nothing better
than hearing the subtle beautiful tones of a well recorded well played
piano or acoustic guitar; these are just plain invisible or distorted on
a lot of todays cheap crap, and people are getting used to it.

Disclaimer: IMHO, YMMV, etc.

Cheers.


Or maybe I'm just having a bad day and being cynical ;-)

--
Mark Simonetti.
Freelance Software Engineer.

"Mark Simonetti" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

Speaker Doppler as insignificant as it is, is positively huge
compared to the errors that a common nasty old 5532 or TL072 makes
in most audio circuits.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is a 5532 and a TL072 ?

Common, err mature audio op amp chips, still widely used particularly the
former.

What problems are they causing ?

In correctly-designed circuits, that would be a good quesiton.

I know I could look it up (and I just
have) but others may be curious too. I find all this interesting.

You'd be surprised (or perhaps not) how many people really aren't
bothered about hearing nice clear audio through a decent system, never
mind the (small?) distortions we are discussing in this NG.

I'm sorry, but these sentence's structure and length makes me unclear about
what it means.

Sometimes I think its because people don't realise what they are
missing.

Are you suggesting that I'm missing something, or making these comments in a
state of total ignorance?

Even with my modest set up, I've bought a smile to the face
of some people who've sat and listened to my relatively good system,
compared to your average low end extremely coloured systems (complete
with "3D" sound "enhancement" and all that)..

That's not the scale of what we are talking about here. We're about a dozen
cuts above at the baseline.

I think others who refer to us, who do care, as anal about it perhaps
do not appreciate music in the same way.

I don't think you know who you are talking to, but frankly you should
reserve such comments for your dogs, cats and other house pets.

To me there is nothing
better than hearing the subtle beautiful tones of a well recorded
well played piano or acoustic guitar; these are just plain invisible
or distorted on a lot of todays cheap crap, and people are getting
used to it.

Why do you presume that somehow this makes you different from me?

Disclaimer: IMHO, YMMV, etc.

A wise man checks out the lay of the land before he rushes spouting all
sorts of self-serving insults.

I think perhaps I didn't write that very well, you've midunderstood me,
sorry.

I'm basically stating that in general people, as in the general public,
do not appreciate quality audio, which is a sad state of affairs.

Mark.
--

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Mark Simonetti" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:


Speaker Doppler as insignificant as it is, is positively huge
compared to the errors that a common nasty old 5532 or TL072 makes
in most audio circuits.


Please excuse my ignorance, but what is a 5532 and a TL072 ?


Common, err mature audio op amp chips, still widely used particularly the
former.


What problems are they causing ?


In correctly-designed circuits, that would be a good quesiton.


I know I could look it up (and I just
have) but others may be curious too. I find all this interesting.


You'd be surprised (or perhaps not) how many people really aren't
bothered about hearing nice clear audio through a decent system, never
mind the (small?) distortions we are discussing in this NG.


I'm sorry, but these sentence's structure and length makes me unclear about
what it means.


Sometimes I think its because people don't realise what they are
missing.


Are you suggesting that I'm missing something, or making these comments in a
state of total ignorance?


Even with my modest set up, I've bought a smile to the face
of some people who've sat and listened to my relatively good system,
compared to your average low end extremely coloured systems (complete
with "3D" sound "enhancement" and all that)..


That's not the scale of what we are talking about here. We're about a dozen
cuts above at the baseline.


I think others who refer to us, who do care, as anal about it perhaps
do not appreciate music in the same way.


I don't think you know who you are talking to, but frankly you should
reserve such comments for your dogs, cats and other house pets.


To me there is nothing
better than hearing the subtle beautiful tones of a well recorded
well played piano or acoustic guitar; these are just plain invisible
or distorted on a lot of todays cheap crap, and people are getting
used to it.


Why do you presume that somehow this makes you different from me?


Disclaimer: IMHO, YMMV, etc.


A wise man checks out the lay of the land before he rushes spouting all
sorts of self-serving insults.




--
Mark Simonetti.
Freelance Software Engineer.