Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

Is this the general thought of this newsgroup? Do you guys take advice from
these idiots???

Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

I'd love to see you quote either one of them as sayign they are "the exact same
thing". Both clearly stated that there is alot more to an amp than just watts.
Reliability, customer service, toughness,load handling, looks, crossovers
etc.... all go into ones decision to purchase an amp. (At least they should,
to people who are concerned with more than just the name and power ratings).

You have not given a single piece of evidence to back up your claim that Zapco
amps are so much "better" than Jensen, you just keep spouting the "They cost
more, so they must be better" bit.

Both have asked you to provide a single shred of evidence to back up your
claim, and yet you fail to do so.

So, until you can somehow prove that a Zapco amp is "better" than a Jensen, I
think you should kindly shut the hell up.

Nick

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 07:19:47 GMT, "Pug Fugley" wrote:

Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

Is this the general thought of this newsgroup? Do you guys take advice from
these idiots???


Hell No! Those guys are idiots. WTF is a Kenford? Isn't Sparkomatic
a Kmart brand? Everyone knows Rockwoods are pieces of ****.

"TheBIessedDead" wrote in message
...
Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same
thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

I'd love to see you quote either one of them as sayign they are "the exact
same
thing". Both clearly stated that there is alot more to an amp than just
watts.
Reliability, customer service, toughness,load handling, looks, crossovers
etc.... all go into ones decision to purchase an amp. (At least they
should,
to people who are concerned with more than just the name and power
ratings).

No, go read the thread. He's saying that if all that extra crap is equal,
the amps are THE EXACT SAME THING and there is NO reason to spend $1000 for
an amp when you can get the same thing at the flea market for $49.



You have not given a single piece of evidence to back up your claim that
Zapco
amps are so much "better" than Jensen, you just keep spouting the "They
cost
more, so they must be better" bit.

Well I don't have a single piece of evidence that the earth is round,
either. But guess what. IT IS!

Besides, one comparison look at the filter caps, power supply, output
devices, and rail designs on Zapco vs. Jensen should let any idiot know
which is better.





Both have asked you to provide a single shred of evidence to back up your
claim, and yet you fail to do so.

What is there to prove? IT'S A WELL KNOWN FACT.

I'll bet an ass like yourself would argue that the sky is not blue.
"Well I need proof"

"LOOK AT THE ****ING THING. IT'S ****ING BLUE" *SMACK*

I guess some people need to be hit over the head a few times before they can
learn anything. Sheesh.





So, until you can somehow prove that a Zapco amp is "better" than a
Jensen, I
think you should kindly shut the hell up.

I think you can kindly lick my nuts. You are obviously a ****ing moron who
knows nothing about car audio or general electronics.


Here's your sign.....

"Jimmy Deam" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 07:19:47 GMT, "Pug Fugley" wrote:

Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same
thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

Is this the general thought of this newsgroup? Do you guys take advice
from
these idiots???


Hell No! Those guys are idiots.

I'm beginning to see that. I can't believe these guys hand out advice to
people.



WTF is a Kenford?

According to Zarella, it's the same as a JL Audio.



Isn't Sparkomatic
a Kmart brand?

Yep. Zarella probably thinks it's an Xtant but they don't sell Xtant at
Kmart so they put Sparkomatic on it.

Everyone knows Rockwoods are pieces of ****.

Well according to Zarella they are among the best sounding amps in the
world. I disagree. I've installed too many of them over the years and I know
better.

No, go read the thread. He's saying that if all that extra crap is equal,
the amps are THE EXACT SAME THING and there is NO reason to spend $1000 for
an amp when you can get the same thing at the flea market for $49.

Well, if all that "crap" is equal, who in their right mind would pay 1000
dollars when they could get the SAME thing for 49 dollars?

I bet you have a giant sticker on the front of your car advertising the super
cool brand of stereo equipment you use.

Well I don't have a single piece of evidence that the earth is round,
either. But guess what. IT IS!

Um... There is PLENTY of evidence that the world is round.

Is there evidence to back up your claim though? Nope, none.

Besides, one comparison look at the filter caps, power supply, output
devices, and rail designs on Zapco vs. Jensen should let any idiot know
which is better.

So you could look at all that stuff on the inside of the amp, and say for
certain that one would sound better than the other?

What is there to prove? IT'S A WELL KNOWN FACT.


Its a known fact? Where did you pull that little tid bit from?

I'll bet an ass like yourself would argue that the sky is not blue.
"Well I need proof"

Well if you are going to argue something like this, its best to have something
to back up your claim other than "This one costs more, so its better".

I think you can kindly lick my nuts. You are obviously a ****ing moron who
knows nothing about car audio or general electronics.

Uh huh....

"TheBIessedDead" wrote in message
...
No, go read the thread. He's saying that if all that extra crap is equal,
the amps are THE EXACT SAME THING and there is NO reason to spend $1000
for
an amp when you can get the same thing at the flea market for $49.

Well, if all that "crap" is equal, who in their right mind would pay 1000
dollars when they could get the SAME thing for 49 dollars?

So you also think that a $49 amp has the exact same circuit board as a $1000
amp? Idiot.




I bet you have a giant sticker on the front of your car advertising the
super
cool brand of stereo equipment you use.

Maybe 12 years ago when I was winning competitions. Of course I didn't mind
doing that, since that's what the amp and speaker companies were paying me
to do.





Well I don't have a single piece of evidence that the earth is round,
either. But guess what. IT IS!

Um... There is PLENTY of evidence that the world is round.

Name one. A globe? Not good enough. That's just a model.

You're just ASSUMING the world is round becuase you know good and damn well
that it IS..but you've never seen it.

Well I know good and damn well that a JL Audio amp sounds better than a
Sparkomatic. You can think otherwise, I really don't give a ****. I'm not
the one that has to listen to your pile of crap $300 stereo system. I'll bet
you have 6x9's in the back deck. Hey, they do the same thing as 12 inch
subs! They're both speakers aren't they? Good thinking.

So you also think that a $49 amp has the exact same circuit board as a $1000
amp? Idiot.

Uh huh... cause that is EXACTLY what I said. Your reading comprehension
teachers must be so proud.

Maybe 12 years ago when I was winning competitions. Of course I didn't mind
doing that, since that's what the amp and speaker companies were paying me
to do.

I find it hard to believe that 12 years ago you were doing anything but getting
ready for kindergarden.

You're just ASSUMING the world is round becuase you know good and damn well
that it IS..but you've never seen it.

I haven't? I haven't seen live pictures from space shuttles? Riiightt.

Well I know good and damn well that a JL Audio amp sounds better than a
Sparkomatic. You can think otherwise, I really don't give a ****.

Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night kiddo. I'm not arguing either way
really, I'm just pointing out that your argument is based on absolutely NOTHING
concrete. No evidence whatsoever, and that you took Marks posts and twisted
them into anything but the point he was making.

..

I'm not
the one that has to listen to your pile of crap $300 stereo system.

You put entirely too much emphasis on price tags.

The local shop in our tiny little town makes a killing off children like you
who only want brand names that will impress their friends.

To each their own I guess.

I'll bet
you have 6x9's in the back deck.

This is an insult? Is this the car audio equivalent of your mama jokes?

Hey, they do the same thing as 12 inch
subs! They're both speakers aren't they? Good thinking.

You are REALLY reaching to stand your ground here bub. Someone stating that
6x9's and subs sound exactly the same is just a tad difference than someone
saying two comparable amps sound the same.

"TheBIessedDead" wrote in message
...
So you also think that a $49 amp has the exact same circuit board as a
$1000
amp? Idiot.

Uh huh... cause that is EXACTLY what I said. Your reading comprehension
teachers must be so proud.

Okay, I just wanted to clear it up. I THOUGHT that's what you said, I just
wanted to give you another chance.

I just didn't think that anyone could be that ****ing stupid, that's all.
You proved me wrong.


So a Sparkomatic amp uses the same exact circuit board as a JL Audio amp.
Wow. You learn something every day.



Maybe 12 years ago when I was winning competitions. Of course I didn't
mind
doing that, since that's what the amp and speaker companies were paying
me
to do.

I find it hard to believe that 12 years ago you were doing anything but
getting
ready for kindergarden.

Well, you're the one who thinks Rockwood makes Zapco, so I find it hard to
believe that you can manage to put on your pants in the morning.

In fact, if I remember right..it's been a while..I was actually on the
circuit the first year IASCA was formed. I remember doing some USAC before
that..it's kinda foggy. I do remember hanging around with Richard Clark for
a good while at the various shows...smart guy. In fact, he taught me a lot
about amplifiers.

Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

Where did either one of us say that????
I have not even compared all of those, your pulling stuff out of your ass
again.

Is this the general thought of this newsgroup? Do you guys take advice from
these idiots???

What is the general thought of Pug and Captain newsgroup??
They are idiots who have proven it TIME AND TIME AGAIN. and yet they keep doing
it. Show me some proof Puggy. BTW very conveinent how you ignored the links to
the Jensen and the Xtant. Could that be because they performed the same? Huh.

Les

No, go read the thread. He's saying that if all that extra crap is equal,
the amps are THE EXACT SAME THING and there is NO reason to spend $1000 for
an amp when you can get the same thing at the flea market for $49.

Extra crap???? So you consider reliability, resale value, customer service,
build quality, actual watts, and features are extra crap? Clarify that for us
all will you?

Ok here it is Pug, this is what I am saying and you can quote me on this.

Ahem "If you operate the amp (virtually any amp) with its operating range, ie
no clipping, then the differences that can be measured will likely be below the
threshold of human hearing"
In other words, whatever differences there may be you wont hear them.

If you need more clarification on that just let me know.

Les

Well, if all that "crap" is equal, who in their right mind would pay 1000
dollars when they could get the SAME thing for 49 dollars?

So you also think that a $49 amp has the exact same circuit board as a $1000
amp? Idiot.


Thats not what he said. Read it again. Come on everybody read it so you can see
just how stupid Pug is.
He said that if it is all the same then why would you pay 1000 dollars when you
could get it for 50. The key word is "IF". It is important to the sentence.

Maybe 12 years ago when I was winning competitions. Of course I didn't mind
doing that, since that's what the amp and speaker companies were paying me
to do.

Proof?

Name one. A globe? Not good enough. That's just a model.

You're just ASSUMING the world is round becuase you know good and damn well
that it IS..but you've never seen it.


What an assinine example. It is a scientifically accepted fact that the world
is round.

Well I know good and damn well that a JL Audio amp sounds better than a
Sparkomatic. You can think otherwise, I really don't give a ****.

Of course, because logic and facts have no place to low life audio pukes like
you.
How do you know it sounds better? Publish me some data where you ran both amps
within thier linear range and show me and Mark up. But alas your too much of an
idiot to know how to even properly set it up.

I'll bet
you have 6x9's in the back deck. Hey, they do the same thing as 12 inch
subs! They're both speakers aren't they? Good thinking.

Thats not the argument. Dumbass.

Les

n fact, if I remember right..it's been a while..I was actually on the
circuit the first year IASCA was formed. I remember doing some USAC before
that..it's kinda foggy. I do remember hanging around with Richard Clark for
a good while at the various shows...smart guy. In fact, he taught me a lot
about amplifiers.

Im calling complete BULL**** on this one Pug. What did he teach you about amps?

And of course its kinda foggy when you weren't there. Here is your chance now,
prove me wrong.

Les

I take all NG advice with a grain of salt, regardless of who its from.
We all hear things differntly. What might be inaudible to one, may be
audible to some one else. Gotta keep that in mind, because audio
equipment evaluation is such a subjective thing. Thats why I
(absolutely) HAD to do my own aperiodic sub install. Ive heard sooo
many pros / cons and oppinions that I wanted to give it a shot. I am
happy I did, now I know first hand.

I like the sound of my Hifonics VIII amps for sound stage and Crunch
amps for sub-bass...
http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...8_107_full.jpg
http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...68_26_full.jpg
http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...68_95_full.jpg
http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...68_63_full.jpg

To my ears the old hifonics amps seem to clip more gently when pushed.
Maybe other high end amps sound the same or better.. Who knows. Who
cares when I can get these used on ebay for $80. These crunch amps are
supposed to be un-reliable turds, but they work just fine for me. They
do about 825x1 into 2 ohms.

In high school I had pyramid gold series amps and I thought they sounded
great for the price. I always got good SQ and noise floor scores at
iasca events with these amps too... although I'd get whoop'd in dbs
competing against 1 ohm HCCAs and Autoteks. My friends were shocked
Pyramid Korean crap could sound so good and get decently loud at the
same time.

Oppinions will vary, so be it.

Garrett


Pug Fugley wrote:

Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

Is this the general thought of this newsgroup? Do you guys take advice from
these idiots???

I take all NG advice with a grain of salt, regardless of who its from.
We all hear things differntly. What might be inaudible to one, may be
audible to some one else. Gotta keep that in mind, because audio
equipment evaluation is such a subjective thing.

But Garrett, keep in mind that certain things are accepted as scientific fact.
You cant hear the difference between .05% THD and .1% THD or a damping factor
of 100 vs 200. Things like that are not subjective.

To my ears the old hifonics amps seem to clip more gently when pushed.
Maybe other high end amps sound the same or better..

That could be true. Some amps will have a built in compression circuit(or
something similar) to ease the audibility of clipping. The Crown MacroTechs and
the Meyer amps both have a feature similar to this. Both to protect drivers and
limit noise. But the discussion here is driving an amp withing its limits, no
clipping.

These crunch amps are
supposed to be un-reliable turds, but they work just fine for me. They
do about 825x1 into 2 ohms.

Had a crunch amp for about 6 years now and its still going. I have never had
trouble out of those. IMO good bang for the buck.

In high school I had pyramid gold series amps and I thought they sounded
great for the price. I always got good SQ and noise floor scores at
iasca events with these amps too...

Right. But by Pugs logic they should have sounded like **** cause they said
pyramid. But they didnt.

Oppinions will vary, so be it.


If we were only discussing opinions it would be easy. But its a matter of fact
vs fiction.I can provide proof (and have), Pug cannot.

Les

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 08:04:09 GMT, "Pug Fugley" wrote:


In fact, if I remember right..it's been a while..I was actually on the
circuit the first year IASCA was formed. I remember doing some USAC before
that..it's kinda foggy. I do remember hanging around with Richard Clark for
a good while at the various shows...smart guy. In fact, he taught me a lot
about amplifiers.

Funny that you should mention Richard Clark in this thread, since he's
the guy that's so sure all amplifiers DO sound the same that's he's
bet anyone $10,000 of his own money that they can't tell the sonic
difference between two amps, regardless of cost or topology.

Of course, there's more to the bet than that, but no much more.
Neither amp can be clipping, they both must be putting out the same
power, etcetera..

Also, I realize that power ratings vary from model to model, and
reliability varies as well. I believe that there are differences
between amplifiers, but they're probably not as great as some people
would have them believe.

Scott Gardner

No, go read the thread. He's saying that if all that extra crap is equal,
the amps are THE EXACT SAME THING and there is NO reason to spend $1000
for
an amp when you can get the same thing at the flea market for $49.

Well, I'd consider that "extra crap" pretty important, wouldn't you?

You have not given a single piece of evidence to back up your claim that
Zapco
amps are so much "better" than Jensen, you just keep spouting the "They
cost
more, so they must be better" bit.

Well I don't have a single piece of evidence that the earth is round,
either. But guess what. IT IS!

Most people can provide evidence that it's round. Sheesh, simple pictures
from outer space even. People didn't just start believing that it was round
because one person said it was. That's your problem. Someone told you why
one amp is better than the other and you believed it without any evidence.
Don't be embarassed. It's quite common for people who don't have any
experience building/designing/repairing amplifiers.

Besides, one comparison look at the filter caps, power supply, output
devices, and rail designs on Zapco vs. Jensen should let any idiot know
which is better.

All those things factor into why I feel the Zapco amp is better than some
amps. But none of them play into why one would sound better than the other.
The filter caps, power supply, output devices, and rail designs(?) are all
sufficient in a Jensen amp. Maybe that's why carsound measured a lower THD
in that Jensen amp than in that Zapco. Doesn't mean that I'd prefer the
Jensen though. It just means that the difference in distortion content is
inaudible to human beings (IMD follows the same trend by the way).

In fact, if I remember right..it's been a while..I was actually on the
circuit the first year IASCA was formed. I remember doing some USAC before
that..it's kinda foggy. I do remember hanging around with Richard Clark
for
a good while at the various shows...smart guy. In fact, he taught me a lot
about amplifiers.

Well, then you didn't learn much from Richard Clark. He currently has a
$10,000 amplifier challenge going on where he claims that you can't hear the
difference between any two ampsof your choosing in a controlled testing
environment. You should go take his challenge. It should be an easy $10k
for you, huh?

WTF is a Kenford?

According to Zarella, it's the same as a JL Audio.

Please provide a quote, liar.

I take all NG advice with a grain of salt, regardless of who its from.
We all hear things differntly. What might be inaudible to one, may be
audible to some one else. Gotta keep that in mind, because audio
equipment evaluation is such a subjective thing.

But Garrett, keep in mind that certain things are accepted as scientific
fact.
You cant hear the difference between .05% THD and .1% THD or a damping
factor
of 100 vs 200. Things like that are not subjective.

It's funny how similarly humans are built like that. But then again, those
of us in the psychophysics biz know that. Unfortunately, there are lots of
people who think they're experts because they crawl underneath cars for a
living.

Most people can provide evidence that it's round. Sheesh, simple pictures
from outer space even. People didn't just start believing that it was round
because one person said it was. That's your problem. Someone told you why
one amp is better than the other and you believed it without any evidence.
Don't be embarassed. It's quite common for people who don't have any
experience building/designing/repairing amplifiers.

Its not that hard to see for yourself that the earth is round. All you have to
do is go swimming in a large lake and look at the shore from various distances
and see what happens........

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
In fact, if I remember right..it's been a while..I was actually on the
circuit the first year IASCA was formed. I remember doing some USAC
before
that..it's kinda foggy. I do remember hanging around with Richard Clark
for
a good while at the various shows...smart guy. In fact, he taught me a
lot
about amplifiers.

Well, then you didn't learn much from Richard Clark. He currently has a
$10,000 amplifier challenge going on where he claims that you can't hear
the
difference between any two ampsof your choosing in a controlled testing
environment. You should go take his challenge. It should be an easy $10k
for you, huh?

Damn, he wasn't offering $10,000 when I did the challenge. He owes me!

Well, then you didn't learn much from Richard Clark. He currently has a
$10,000 amplifier challenge going on where he claims that you can't hear
the
difference between any two ampsof your choosing in a controlled testing
environment. You should go take his challenge. It should be an easy
$10k
for you, huh?

Damn, he wasn't offering $10,000 when I did the challenge. He owes me!

He's quite receptive to shop owners coming down for it. Contact him. I'm
sure he'd waive the $50 fee (or whatever it is) for you. Take a Zapco and a
Jensen with you.

What an assinine example. It is a scientifically accepted fact that the
world
is round.


Actually, it's a sphere.

Sorry, I was just feeling left out and wanted to get in on the fun.



Paul Vina

"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
Well, then you didn't learn much from Richard Clark. He currently has
a
$10,000 amplifier challenge going on where he claims that you can't
hear
the
difference between any two ampsof your choosing in a controlled
testing
environment. You should go take his challenge. It should be an easy
$10k
for you, huh?

Damn, he wasn't offering $10,000 when I did the challenge. He owes me!

He's quite receptive to shop owners coming down for it. Contact him. I'm
sure he'd waive the $50 fee (or whatever it is) for you. Take a Zapco and
a
Jensen with you.

He can't supply the amps?

He's quite receptive to shop owners coming down for it. Contact him.
I'm
sure he'd waive the $50 fee (or whatever it is) for you. Take a Zapco
and
a
Jensen with you.

He can't supply the amps?

Oh I don't know.

Funny that you should mention Richard Clark in this thread, since he's
the guy that's so sure all amplifiers DO sound the same that's he's
bet anyone $10,000 of his own money that they can't tell the sonic
difference between two amps, regardless of cost or topology.

You know Scott that is funny. BUT Pug is an idiot who knows NOTHING about
amplifier design.
BTW Pug what shop do you work for again? And which competitions was it that you
won? Still waiting for you to back up your claims.

Les

"Mark Zarella" pam wrote in message

Well, then you didn't learn much from Richard Clark. He currently has a
$10,000 amplifier challenge going on where he claims that you can't
hear the difference between any two ampsof your choosing in a controlled
testing environment. You should go take his challenge. It should be an easy
$10k
for you, huh?

Damn, he wasn't offering $10,000 when I did the challenge. He owes me!

He's quite receptive to shop owners coming down for it. Contact him. I'm
sure he'd waive the $50 fee (or whatever it is) for you. Take a Zapco and
a
Jensen with you.

Here's an interesting aside on this topic, which should be good news to car
enthusiasts. A few years ago I was testing/comparing several car audio
amplifiers. Following the test I took the least competent of these amplifiers
branded Adcom (by least competent I mean lower power and fewer features) and
compared it to a Bryston 4B-NRB home amplifier using hi-fi home speakers in an
ABX double blind listening test. Neither I nor two other listeners were able to
reliably tell the two amplifiers apart.

IOW the car amp sounded identical to a high-end power ampliifer.

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 18:25:33 GMT, "Pug Fugley" wrote:


"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
...
Well, then you didn't learn much from Richard Clark. He currently has
a
$10,000 amplifier challenge going on where he claims that you can't
hear
the
difference between any two ampsof your choosing in a controlled
testing
environment. You should go take his challenge. It should be an easy
$10k
for you, huh?

Damn, he wasn't offering $10,000 when I did the challenge. He owes me!

He's quite receptive to shop owners coming down for it. Contact him. I'm
sure he'd waive the $50 fee (or whatever it is) for you. Take a Zapco and
a
Jensen with you.

He can't supply the amps?


He'll do it either way - using his own amps, or ones you supply. Here
are the complete rules, if anyone's interested:


THE $10,000 AMPLIFIER CHALLENGE RULES {April 21, 2000}
By Richard Clark

There is no question that all amps are not the same. It is very easy
to measure large differences in the performance of amplifiers. This is
true in nearly every known specification, including power, noise,
distortion, etc. My experience has led me to believe that even though
these differences can be easily measured, hearing those differences
may not be so easy. Given the relatively small magnitude of
performance differences, there is a giant step between amplifier
performance and our ability to hear performance differences.
It is claimed by designers, manufacturers and especially salespersons
that differences in amplifiers are clearly audible. Reasons include
"obvious" advantages of one type of circuit topology over another. For
example, it is claimed that certain designs have a smoother midrange
response whereas other amplifiers exhibit tighter bass. Tube fanatics
claim that tube amplifiers have that "warm" sound we all need in our
systems.
Such descriptive terms are certainly subject to personal
interpretation. It is not my intention to determine if one particular
amplifier is better than another amplifier. Differences in the quality
of the discrete components and constructions are more appropriate for
settling the issue of "good - better - best." The sole purpose of my
amplifier challenge is to determine if the differences in amplifiers
are audible.

What differences are Audible?

I believe the perceived differences in amplifiers are all due to
various factors that can be explained with basic physics and
elementary psyco-acoustics. For instance, if two amplifiers are not
carefully matched in volume, and one amp is slightly louder than the
other, then it would be a simple matter to detect such a difference.
In such an example it is important to understand that it is not the
circuit topology, quality of the component, design excellence, or
superb marketing and packaging that caused the noticeable difference -
it was an error in the test setup! It is my present belief that as
long as a modern amplifier is operated within its linear range (below
overload), the differences between amps are inaudible to the human
ear.

Comparing Amps

The idea here is for a test subject to scientifically demonstrate
his/her ability to hear differences in amplifiers. It is our job to
carefully match the amps so that we are comparing "apples to apples"
instead of "oranges to frogs." This means that we sure wouldn't want
to compare one amplifier that had + 12 dB of high frequency boost
against another amplifier that was adjusted for + 12 dB of bass boost.
Such a test would be easy to pass - even on identical amplifiers with
consecutive serial numbers.
For our comparison test, we aren't concerned with which amplifier
sounds best to the test subject. We only require that the listener be
able to identify each amplifier when it is powering the speakers.
Since many folks seem to believe that amplifiers
have some kind of distinctive sonic character, this test should be
easy to pass. Right? After all, we're talking about comparing those
harsh sounding, high distortion, squeaky "widget As" to those warm
sounding, smooth, bass hog "widget Bs."
Now pay particular attention to the following sections. Since we're
looking for differences in amplifiers, and we already know that those
differences are probably going to be very, very small, it is important
that the parameters under our control be carefully adjusted so as to
be equal as possible. This means that we must be cognizant of
differences we might unknowingly introduce between amp A and amp B.
They must be adjusted as identical as possible. We already mentioned
the importance of volume. The same goes for the L and R balance. It
sure would be easy to choose an amplifier that exhibited left side
bias over a balanced amp. Right?
Well, in order to keep this amplifier comparison test fair, there are
a few other parameters that must be considered. I'll list them all in
the following section.


Amplifier Comparison Test Conditions

1. Amplifier gain controls - of both channels - are matched to within
+- .05 dB.

2. Speaker wires on both amps are properly wired with respect to
polarity. (+ and -)

3. That neither amp has signal phase inversion. If so correction will
be made in #2 above.

4. That neither amp is loaded beyond its rated impedance.

5. That all amplifiers with signal processors have those circuits
bypassed. This includes bass boost circuits, filters, etc. If
frequency tailoring circuits cannot be completely bypassed an
equalizer will be inserted in the signal path of one (only one and the
listener can decide which) of the amps to compensate for the
difference. Compensation will also be made for input and output
loading that affects frequency response. Since we are only listening
for differences in the sonic signature of circuit topology, the
addition of an EQ in one signal path only should make the test even
easier.

6. That neither amp exhibits excessive noise (including RFI).

7. That each amp can be properly driven by the test setup. Not
normally a problem but it is theoretically a problem.

8. That the L and R channels are not reversed in one amp.

9. That neither amp has excessive physical noise or other indicators
that can be observed by the listener.

10. That neither amp has DC OFFSET that causes audible pops when its
output is switched.

11. That the channel separation of all amps in the test is at least 30
dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.




In addition to these requirements the test will be conducted according
to the following rules.
Amplifier Test Comparison Rules

1. To make things easy we would prefer to use high quality home type
loudspeakers for the test. If our speakers are not acceptable, the
listener can provide any commercially available speaker system as long
as it uses dynamic drivers. The actual measured impedance cannot
exceed the rated load impedance of the amplifiers tested. If, however,
the tester would like to perform the test in a car, we will use a car,
however, it will have to be provided by the test subject. For
practicality we will have to limit the number of amplifier channels to
four or less.

2. Amplifiers will be powered from the same power supply at a nominal
14 volts DC. (any voltage is OK as long as it is the same for both
amps)

3. The test can be conducted at any volume desired; however, the amps
will not be allowed to clip. In other words, listening volume can not
exceed the power capacity of the smallest amp of the pair being
tested. (power capacity will be defined as clipping or 2%THD 20Hz to
10kHz, whichever is less)

4. No test signals can be used - only commercially available music.

5. The listener can compare two amps at a time for as long as desired.
For practical reasons we would like to keep this at least no more than
a few hours. A test session will consist of 12 A/B sequences. Passing
the test will require a positive identification of each amp for all 12
sequences. Remember, guessing will get you about 6 out of 12. If the
differences are so great, and a subject can really hear the
difference, then he/she should be able to do so for all 12 sequences.

6. To win the $10,000.00, the listener must pass two complete sessions
of 12 comparisons. Passing the test means 24 correct responses.* The
amp of choice can be compared to the same or a different amp in each
session - challengers choice. We have many amplifiers in our demo
inventory such as, but not limited to, Alpine, Rockford, Kicker,
Phoenix Gold, Precision Power, MTX, Adcom, Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony,
etc. You can pick any of them or bring your own.

7. All amps must be brand name, standard production, linear voltage
amplifiers. This does not exclude high current amps. Amps can not be
modified and must meet factory specs. They must be "car audio
amplifiers designed to be powered from a car's electrical system."

8. Failure of an amp (this includes thermal shutdown) during the test
will require that the test be repeated after repair or replacement or
cooling of the amp. This means that the entire test session will have
to be repeated.

9. The amps will not be overloaded during the session from either a
voltage or current requirement.

10. To save time the listener will have to pass a quick 8 trial
session to qualify for the extended 2 session test for the money
prize. Any 2 amps can be used for this
test. Passing this qualifying test will require at least 6 out of 8
correct answers.

11. The amplifier power up and/or power down sequence will not be
acceptable for comparison. (The turn on/off noises of some amplifiers
would give it away.)

12. Although anyone is welcome to take the test, only subjects
employed in the car audio industry or Car Sound subscribers are
eligible for the $10,000.00 prize.

13. Cost to take the test is $100.00. $300.00 for people representing
companies. Payable in advance, scheduled appointments only. Done
correctly the test takes several hours and I don't have the time if
you aren't serious.

* Twelve correct responses in a row is certainly a lot of correct
listening but $10,000 is also a lot of money for a few hours of easy
listening. The way people describe the differences is that they are
like night and day. I would certainly not have any trouble choosing
between an apple and an orange 12 times in a row. When compared fairly
I believe the differences in amps are much too small to audibly detect
and certainly too small to pay large sums of extra money for. If I am
wrong someone should be able to carefully take this test and win my
money. Even if I am right, if enough people take the test eventually
someone will take my money due to random chance. This is the reason
for the large sample requirement. If you feel that you can easily pass
this test but 12 sequences will give you "listening fatigue" I am
willing to modify the requirements. Since the way it is being offered
is a challenge and only my money is at risk I am willing to let a
confident challenger "put his money where his ears are". If we are
willing to make this a bet instead of a challenge, I am willing to
drop 1 sequence for every thousand dollars put up by the challenger
against my money. This would mean:


____My___________ _ _Your________Trails Required to win__
$10,000 to $0 = 12 Tries
$9,000 to $1,000 = 11 Tries
$8,000 to $2,000 = 10 Tries
$7,000 to $3,000 = 9 Tries
$6,000 to $4,000 = 8 Tries
$5,000 to $5,000 = 7 Tries
$4,000 to $6,000 = 6 Tries

I will not do the test with less than 6 trails. It would be
statistically meaningless and reduce the challenge to mere gambling.


Scott Gardner

I agree with you, the difference between .05 THD and .1 are NOT
audible... same goes for damping factor.

I agree with Mark / Soundfreak. CLEAN wattage sounds the same
regardless of amp brand.

Garrett



Soundfreak03 wrote:

I take all NG advice with a grain of salt, regardless of who its from.
We all hear things differntly. What might be inaudible to one, may be
audible to some one else. Gotta keep that in mind, because audio
equipment evaluation is such a subjective thing.



But Garrett, keep in mind that certain things are accepted as scientific fact.
You cant hear the difference between .05% THD and .1% THD or a damping factor
of 100 vs 200. Things like that are not subjective.



To my ears the old hifonics amps seem to clip more gently when pushed.
Maybe other high end amps sound the same or better..



That could be true. Some amps will have a built in compression circuit(or
something similar) to ease the audibility of clipping. The Crown MacroTechs and
the Meyer amps both have a feature similar to this. Both to protect drivers and
limit noise. But the discussion here is driving an amp withing its limits, no
clipping.



These crunch amps are
supposed to be un-reliable turds, but they work just fine for me. They
do about 825x1 into 2 ohms.



Had a crunch amp for about 6 years now and its still going. I have never had
trouble out of those. IMO good bang for the buck.



In high school I had pyramid gold series amps and I thought they sounded
great for the price. I always got good SQ and noise floor scores at
iasca events with these amps too...



Right. But by Pugs logic they should have sounded like **** cause they said
pyramid. But they didnt.



Oppinions will vary, so be it.




If we were only discussing opinions it would be easy. But its a matter of fact
vs fiction.I can provide proof (and have), Pug cannot.

Les

THE $10,000 AMPLIFIER CHALLENGE RULES {April 21, 2000}
By Richard Clark

There is no question that all amps are not the same. It is very easy
to measure large differences in the performance of amplifiers. This is
true in nearly every known specification, including power, noise,
distortion, etc.

DOH! I guess I was RIGHT all along.

Take that, Zarella and the rest of your dumbass cronies. Morons.

THE $10,000 AMPLIFIER CHALLENGE RULES {April 21, 2000}
By Richard Clark

There is no question that all amps are not the same. It is very easy
to measure large differences in the performance of amplifiers. This is
true in nearly every known specification, including power, noise,
distortion, etc.

DOH! I guess I was RIGHT all along.

Take that, Zarella and the rest of your dumbass cronies. Morons.

Nice selective snippage, you disingenuous boob. The very next line reads
"My experience has led me to believe that even though these differences can
be easily measured, hearing those differences may not be so easy."

Guess I was right all along, ****ant.

DOH! I guess I was RIGHT all along.

Take that, Zarella and the rest of your dumbass cronies. Morons.


Read the next line Pug. You moron.

"My experience has led me to believe that even though
these differences can be easily measured, hearing those differences
may not be so easy. Given the relatively small magnitude of
performance differences, there is a giant step between amplifier
performance and our ability to hear performance differences."

That is from your "buddy" Richard Clark. You are an ass aren't you?

Les

DOH! I guess I was RIGHT all along.

I've run through these posts fairly throughly and not found any instance where
Mr. Zarella or anyone else actually said that amp "a" and amp "b" are identical
to one another. Beyond that, the quote you used from the $10,000 challenege
says "It is very easy
to measure large differences in the performance of amplifiers.". This is said
in regards to measurements made with specialized equipment far more sensitive
than the human ear. I've personally done listening tests of JL's 300/4 aganist
compareable models from Xtant and Eclipse and found that there's really no
difference between them other than the small differences changes in power
output can make. So I would venture to say that in many (if not *most* cases)
the brand name attached to a particular amp affects pricing to a much greater
degree than actual technology does. It's easy to assume that a Zapco amp sounds
better than a Sony Xplod amp, but in light of the $10,000 challenenge, I'm not
so sure it's true.

Of course, because logic and facts have no place to low life audio pukes
like
you.

Anyone who has taken and remembers taking a college level Logic class will also
know that simply because a statement is logical does not make it true. This is
*key* in discussions like this one. It seems logical to assume that a $1,000
amp is going to be somehow better than a $500 amp. But in reality, this may not
be true. Therefore logic does not stand.

It's quite common for people who don't have any
experience building/designing/repairing amplifiers.

I'll get him going. I've made this mistake too! Mark, you remember, you helped
me out! There's a lot more to amps than just pricing.

Anyone who has taken and remembers taking a college level Logic class will
also
know that simply because a statement is logical does not make it true. This
is
*key* in discussions like this one. It seems logical to assume that a $1,000
amp is going to be somehow better than a $500 amp. But in reality, this may
not be true. Therefore logic does not stand.

Maybe that is not logical, BUT looking at the measured performance of an amp
operating in its linear range and making the conclusion that any measureable
differences are inaudible is.
Good point Steve. Nonetheless the numbers dont lie.

Les

Maybe that is not logical, BUT looking at the measured performance of an amp
operating in its linear range and making the conclusion that any measureable
differences are inaudible is.
Good point Steve. Nonetheless the numbers dont lie.

I agree with you Les. I'm simply saying that what makes one amp better than
another has to do with more than just numbers and what a machine far more
sensitive than the human ear can detect. Assuming that a $1,000 amp is going to
be audibally better than a $500 amp is logical, but not neccesarily correct.

LOL

In article , Jimmy Deam
wrote:
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 07:19:47 GMT, "Pug Fugley" wrote:

Zarella and Soundfreak are going nuts over here swearing up and down that
amps like Kenford, Dual, Sparkomatic, and Rockwood are the exact same thing
as JL Audio, Xtant, Brax, Zapco, or McIntosh.

Is this the general thought of this newsgroup? Do you guys take advice from
these idiots???


Hell No! Those guys are idiots. WTF is a Kenford? Isn't Sparkomatic
a Kmart brand? Everyone knows Rockwoods are pieces of ****.

LOL


Yes it is funny, that you think that because a know name newbie agrees with you
your right. You are a fool.

Les