Hi All,

I am starting the process of ripping my vinyl. I pulled out my B&O
turntable and a spare RadioShack amp. I hooked everything up and have
the Tape Out of the amp going into the Line In of my Creative
SoundBlaster Live. When recording however I can't get the input level
above -12db. I would like to get the input level up to near 0.
Should I consider this a problem? Is the problem in the soundcard?
Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Peter

"PeterV" wrote in message
om...
Hi All,

I am starting the process of ripping my vinyl. I pulled out my B&O
turntable and a spare RadioShack amp. I hooked everything up and have
the Tape Out of the amp going into the Line In of my Creative
SoundBlaster Live. When recording however I can't get the input level
above -12db. I would like to get the input level up to near 0.
Should I consider this a problem? Is the problem in the soundcard?
Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Peter

You need an RIAA phono preamp to raise the output level of the phone
cartridge and to apply RIAA equalization. Unless you apply RIAA
equalization, it will sound like crap. All pre-amps, receivers, etc that
have inputs labeled as "phono" have an onboard RIAA phone preamp.

In some cases where you have a MC cartridge, you need a special version of
the phone preamp that is designed for MC and will boost output even more.

Do a google search on "RIAA phono" for some low cost solutions if you don't
a phono input in a spare receiver or preamp that is lying around.

"PeterV" wrote in message
om...
Hi All,

I am starting the process of ripping my vinyl. I pulled out my B&O
turntable and a spare RadioShack amp. I hooked everything up and have
the Tape Out of the amp going into the Line In of my Creative
SoundBlaster Live. When recording however I can't get the input level
above -12db. I would like to get the input level up to near 0.
Should I consider this a problem? Is the problem in the soundcard?
Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Peter

You need an RIAA phono preamp to raise the output level of the phone
cartridge and to apply RIAA equalization. Unless you apply RIAA
equalization, it will sound like crap. All pre-amps, receivers, etc that
have inputs labeled as "phono" have an onboard RIAA phone preamp.

In some cases where you have a MC cartridge, you need a special version of
the phone preamp that is designed for MC and will boost output even more.

Do a google search on "RIAA phono" for some low cost solutions if you don't
a phono input in a spare receiver or preamp that is lying around.

The amp I am using has a phono preamp. Granted it is a cheap little
RadioShack amp, but it has phono inputs which I am using. In addition it
has a switch for the phono input (CER and MAG) I assume that is to allow
for different phono cartridges. The CER seems to lower the signal even more
than MAG

"Mark A" wrote in message
...
"PeterV" wrote in message
om...
Hi All,

I am starting the process of ripping my vinyl. I pulled out my B&O
turntable and a spare RadioShack amp. I hooked everything up and have
the Tape Out of the amp going into the Line In of my Creative
SoundBlaster Live. When recording however I can't get the input level
above -12db. I would like to get the input level up to near 0.
Should I consider this a problem? Is the problem in the soundcard?
Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Peter

You need an RIAA phono preamp to raise the output level of the phone
cartridge and to apply RIAA equalization. Unless you apply RIAA
equalization, it will sound like crap. All pre-amps, receivers, etc that
have inputs labeled as "phono" have an onboard RIAA phone preamp.

In some cases where you have a MC cartridge, you need a special version of
the phone preamp that is designed for MC and will boost output even more.

Do a google search on "RIAA phono" for some low cost solutions if you
don't
a phono input in a spare receiver or preamp that is lying around.

The amp I am using has a phono preamp. Granted it is a cheap little
RadioShack amp, but it has phono inputs which I am using. In addition it
has a switch for the phono input (CER and MAG) I assume that is to allow
for different phono cartridges. The CER seems to lower the signal even more
than MAG

"Mark A" wrote in message
...
"PeterV" wrote in message
om...
Hi All,

I am starting the process of ripping my vinyl. I pulled out my B&O
turntable and a spare RadioShack amp. I hooked everything up and have
the Tape Out of the amp going into the Line In of my Creative
SoundBlaster Live. When recording however I can't get the input level
above -12db. I would like to get the input level up to near 0.
Should I consider this a problem? Is the problem in the soundcard?
Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Peter

You need an RIAA phono preamp to raise the output level of the phone
cartridge and to apply RIAA equalization. Unless you apply RIAA
equalization, it will sound like crap. All pre-amps, receivers, etc that
have inputs labeled as "phono" have an onboard RIAA phone preamp.

In some cases where you have a MC cartridge, you need a special version of
the phone preamp that is designed for MC and will boost output even more.

Do a google search on "RIAA phono" for some low cost solutions if you
don't
a phono input in a spare receiver or preamp that is lying around.

The amp I am using has a phono preamp. Granted it is a cheap little
RadioShack amp, but it has phono inputs which I am using. In addition it
has a switch for the phono input (CER and MAG) I assume that is to allow
for different phono cartridges. The CER seems to lower the signal even more
than MAG

You certainly want to use MAG - CER has much lower gain.

I suspect that you're using a phono preamp which was designed to work
safely with the older (pre-CD) de facto standard for "line level"
inputs, which was 1 volt peak-to-peak. Newer receivers and preamps
(and perhaps your sound card as well) are designed for a higher 2 volt
peak-to-peak signal level, which is what CD players put out.

The 2:1 voltage difference is 6 dB, or about half of the shortfall you
are observing. The remaining 6 dB might simply be due to having a
lower-than-usual output level from your cartridge, or to conservative
design on the part of the phono-preamp maker.

I suggest that you simply capture the audio at your current signal
level. There's no really good reason to try to "push" the input up to
near digital full-scale during the data capture, and there's a good
reason _not_ to try. Remember, if you hit 0 dB, the signal will
clip... HARD. This can sound quite harsh, and it's an irrecoverable
form of damage to the signal.

You should be fine capturing at peak levels of -12 dB, I think. If
you've got a _very_ good LP and cartridge, the noise level might be
perhaps 60 dB below full scale, and that's -72 dB below your full
scale, and still close to 20 dB above the 16-bit resolution limit.

Granted, many PC audio interfaces don't have the full 90+ dB dynamic
range of a 16-bit system, but still, I don't think you're going to be
losing much by peaking out at -12 dB.

If you want the final CD-R (or MP-3) data to be near 0 dB full, you
can always boost the gain digitally, after the capture is complete.

If you really _do_ want to push the gain up nearer 0 dB during
capture, you'll either need a sound card with a more sensitive input,
or need to boost the gain in the phono preamp by altering the circuitry.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

The amp I am using has a phono preamp. Granted it is a cheap little
RadioShack amp, but it has phono inputs which I am using. In addition it
has a switch for the phono input (CER and MAG) I assume that is to allow
for different phono cartridges. The CER seems to lower the signal even more
than MAG

You certainly want to use MAG - CER has much lower gain.

I suspect that you're using a phono preamp which was designed to work
safely with the older (pre-CD) de facto standard for "line level"
inputs, which was 1 volt peak-to-peak. Newer receivers and preamps
(and perhaps your sound card as well) are designed for a higher 2 volt
peak-to-peak signal level, which is what CD players put out.

The 2:1 voltage difference is 6 dB, or about half of the shortfall you
are observing. The remaining 6 dB might simply be due to having a
lower-than-usual output level from your cartridge, or to conservative
design on the part of the phono-preamp maker.

I suggest that you simply capture the audio at your current signal
level. There's no really good reason to try to "push" the input up to
near digital full-scale during the data capture, and there's a good
reason _not_ to try. Remember, if you hit 0 dB, the signal will
clip... HARD. This can sound quite harsh, and it's an irrecoverable
form of damage to the signal.

You should be fine capturing at peak levels of -12 dB, I think. If
you've got a _very_ good LP and cartridge, the noise level might be
perhaps 60 dB below full scale, and that's -72 dB below your full
scale, and still close to 20 dB above the 16-bit resolution limit.

Granted, many PC audio interfaces don't have the full 90+ dB dynamic
range of a 16-bit system, but still, I don't think you're going to be
losing much by peaking out at -12 dB.

If you want the final CD-R (or MP-3) data to be near 0 dB full, you
can always boost the gain digitally, after the capture is complete.

If you really _do_ want to push the gain up nearer 0 dB during
capture, you'll either need a sound card with a more sensitive input,
or need to boost the gain in the phono preamp by altering the circuitry.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:32:59 -0000, (Dave Platt)
wrote:

I suspect that you're using a phono preamp which was designed to work
safely with the older (pre-CD) de facto standard for "line level"
inputs, which was 1 volt peak-to-peak. Newer receivers and preamps
(and perhaps your sound card as well) are designed for a higher 2 volt
peak-to-peak signal level, which is what CD players put out.

He's using an SB Live, which IIRC has a line input sensitivity around
the 150mV mark. But I'm not absolutely sure about this, and couldn't
find any specs on the Creative website to confirm it.

The 2:1 voltage difference is 6 dB, or about half of the shortfall you
are observing. The remaining 6 dB might simply be due to having a
lower-than-usual output level from your cartridge, or to conservative
design on the part of the phono-preamp maker.

It's a B&O turntable, and they were commonly fitted with Ortofon
cartridges, which do tend to have rather lower output levels than
other mainstream MM carts. But unless it's an MC (rare on a B&O) that
still wouldn't explain a 12dB shortfall.

I suggest that you simply capture the audio at your current signal
level. There's no really good reason to try to "push" the input up to
near digital full-scale during the data capture,

The SB Live's noise floor is typically around -70dB, so peaking at
-12dB is dangerously close to losing some resolution from a really
good LP. IMHO when recording LPs to an SB Live one should aim for a
peak level no worse than -6dB.

and there's a good
reason _not_ to try. Remember, if you hit 0 dB, the signal will
clip... HARD. This can sound quite harsh, and it's an irrecoverable
form of damage to the signal.

Very true. In fact, on many SB Lives, they clip in the analogue domain
somewhere around -2dB. You can put 10 volts in and you'll still never
see 0dB coming out. So aim to peak around -6dB to -4dB.

If you really _do_ want to push the gain up nearer 0 dB during
capture, you'll either need a sound card with a more sensitive input,
or need to boost the gain in the phono preamp by altering the circuitry.

Better soundcards (with lower noise floors) tend to have *less*
sensitive line inputs than the SB Live. Perhaps it's time to consider
a different phono preamp with higher gain (and better sound quality to
boot).

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:32:59 -0000, (Dave Platt)
wrote:

I suspect that you're using a phono preamp which was designed to work
safely with the older (pre-CD) de facto standard for "line level"
inputs, which was 1 volt peak-to-peak. Newer receivers and preamps
(and perhaps your sound card as well) are designed for a higher 2 volt
peak-to-peak signal level, which is what CD players put out.

He's using an SB Live, which IIRC has a line input sensitivity around
the 150mV mark. But I'm not absolutely sure about this, and couldn't
find any specs on the Creative website to confirm it.

The 2:1 voltage difference is 6 dB, or about half of the shortfall you
are observing. The remaining 6 dB might simply be due to having a
lower-than-usual output level from your cartridge, or to conservative
design on the part of the phono-preamp maker.

It's a B&O turntable, and they were commonly fitted with Ortofon
cartridges, which do tend to have rather lower output levels than
other mainstream MM carts. But unless it's an MC (rare on a B&O) that
still wouldn't explain a 12dB shortfall.

I suggest that you simply capture the audio at your current signal
level. There's no really good reason to try to "push" the input up to
near digital full-scale during the data capture,

The SB Live's noise floor is typically around -70dB, so peaking at
-12dB is dangerously close to losing some resolution from a really
good LP. IMHO when recording LPs to an SB Live one should aim for a
peak level no worse than -6dB.

and there's a good
reason _not_ to try. Remember, if you hit 0 dB, the signal will
clip... HARD. This can sound quite harsh, and it's an irrecoverable
form of damage to the signal.

Very true. In fact, on many SB Lives, they clip in the analogue domain
somewhere around -2dB. You can put 10 volts in and you'll still never
see 0dB coming out. So aim to peak around -6dB to -4dB.

If you really _do_ want to push the gain up nearer 0 dB during
capture, you'll either need a sound card with a more sensitive input,
or need to boost the gain in the phono preamp by altering the circuitry.

Better soundcards (with lower noise floors) tend to have *less*
sensitive line inputs than the SB Live. Perhaps it's time to consider
a different phono preamp with higher gain (and better sound quality to
boot).

On 17 Nov 2003 18:46:07 -0800, (PeterV) wrote:

Hi All,

I am starting the process of ripping my vinyl. I pulled out my B&O
turntable and a spare RadioShack amp. I hooked everything up and have
the Tape Out of the amp going into the Line In of my Creative
SoundBlaster Live. When recording however I can't get the input level
above -12db. I would like to get the input level up to near 0.
Should I consider this a problem? Is the problem in the soundcard?
Any help would be appreciated.


You could also, in addittion to all good hints you've already got, use
the headphone or even speaker output of your RS amp, instead of the
tape output I guess you are using today. Granted, you will get more
distorsion and noise, but it is a free alternative worth trying.

Per.


Thanks.
Peter

On 17 Nov 2003 18:46:07 -0800, (PeterV) wrote:

Hi All,

I am starting the process of ripping my vinyl. I pulled out my B&O
turntable and a spare RadioShack amp. I hooked everything up and have
the Tape Out of the amp going into the Line In of my Creative
SoundBlaster Live. When recording however I can't get the input level
above -12db. I would like to get the input level up to near 0.
Should I consider this a problem? Is the problem in the soundcard?
Any help would be appreciated.


You could also, in addittion to all good hints you've already got, use
the headphone or even speaker output of your RS amp, instead of the
tape output I guess you are using today. Granted, you will get more
distorsion and noise, but it is a free alternative worth trying.

Per.


Thanks.
Peter

"PeterV" wrote in message
om...
Hi All,

I am starting the process of ripping my vinyl. I pulled out my B&O
turntable and a spare RadioShack amp. I hooked everything up and have
the Tape Out of the amp going into the Line In of my Creative
SoundBlaster Live. When recording however I can't get the input level
above -12db. I would like to get the input level up to near 0.
Should I consider this a problem? Is the problem in the soundcard?
Any help would be appreciated.

Assuming that you know how to control input/record parameters
on your sound card (like volume/gain) and have adjusted it
appropriately. (You didn't explicitly mention it, and it's hard to
guess at this distance :-)

"PeterV" wrote in message
om...
Hi All,

I am starting the process of ripping my vinyl. I pulled out my B&O
turntable and a spare RadioShack amp. I hooked everything up and have
the Tape Out of the amp going into the Line In of my Creative
SoundBlaster Live. When recording however I can't get the input level
above -12db. I would like to get the input level up to near 0.
Should I consider this a problem? Is the problem in the soundcard?
Any help would be appreciated.

Assuming that you know how to control input/record parameters
on your sound card (like volume/gain) and have adjusted it
appropriately. (You didn't explicitly mention it, and it's hard to
guess at this distance :-)

Thanks for all the great comments. I was going to post a follow-up
regarding boosting the digital signal post ripping. It seems Clive
suggests that my peaks of -12db (in reality the peak does reach -9db
at times) are not good enough for capture even if I might boost the
amplification post ripping, I guess the original signal is not
capturing the essentials of the original record. What are others
opinion about this? Since I am planning on putting a bunch of time in
the near future on ripping my vinyl, I would like to get the best
results the first time around. In addition, I would like to have my
ripped vinyl at the same volume levels as my other ripped mp3's
(Nothing more annoying than two songs with very different volume
levels).

I am also in the process of moving the turntable to another amp (an
old Denon circa 1988) and another computer (also using a SB Live Card)
to see if there is any difference between the two methods. I am then
planning on using the RadioShack amp with the second computer to
determine where the problem lies (that is if the signal is better with
the Denon). I will let you know the results of those tests later this
week.

Another quick question regards editing the WAV or the MP3 file.
Should all cleaning of recorded vinyl tracks (back noise, clicks,
etc.) be done on the WAV file or can they also be done on the MP3
translated files? Can mp3s' volume level be boosted like the wav
file?

Also, when translating the wav files to mp3, should I use the standard
128kps sampling, or can I get by with a slower rate without affecting
sound quality?

Thanks again for all your comments.

PeterV


(Clive Backham) wrote in message ...
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:32:59 -0000, (Dave Platt)
wrote:

I suspect that you're using a phono preamp which was designed to work
safely with the older (pre-CD) de facto standard for "line level"
inputs, which was 1 volt peak-to-peak. Newer receivers and preamps
(and perhaps your sound card as well) are designed for a higher 2 volt
peak-to-peak signal level, which is what CD players put out.

He's using an SB Live, which IIRC has a line input sensitivity around
the 150mV mark. But I'm not absolutely sure about this, and couldn't
find any specs on the Creative website to confirm it.

The 2:1 voltage difference is 6 dB, or about half of the shortfall you
are observing. The remaining 6 dB might simply be due to having a
lower-than-usual output level from your cartridge, or to conservative
design on the part of the phono-preamp maker.

It's a B&O turntable, and they were commonly fitted with Ortofon
cartridges, which do tend to have rather lower output levels than
other mainstream MM carts. But unless it's an MC (rare on a B&O) that
still wouldn't explain a 12dB shortfall.

I suggest that you simply capture the audio at your current signal
level. There's no really good reason to try to "push" the input up to
near digital full-scale during the data capture,

The SB Live's noise floor is typically around -70dB, so peaking at
-12dB is dangerously close to losing some resolution from a really
good LP. IMHO when recording LPs to an SB Live one should aim for a
peak level no worse than -6dB.

and there's a good
reason _not_ to try. Remember, if you hit 0 dB, the signal will
clip... HARD. This can sound quite harsh, and it's an irrecoverable
form of damage to the signal.

Very true. In fact, on many SB Lives, they clip in the analogue domain
somewhere around -2dB. You can put 10 volts in and you'll still never
see 0dB coming out. So aim to peak around -6dB to -4dB.

If you really _do_ want to push the gain up nearer 0 dB during
capture, you'll either need a sound card with a more sensitive input,
or need to boost the gain in the phono preamp by altering the circuitry.

Better soundcards (with lower noise floors) tend to have *less*
sensitive line inputs than the SB Live. Perhaps it's time to consider
a different phono preamp with higher gain (and better sound quality to
boot).

Thanks for all the great comments. I was going to post a follow-up
regarding boosting the digital signal post ripping. It seems Clive
suggests that my peaks of -12db (in reality the peak does reach -9db
at times) are not good enough for capture even if I might boost the
amplification post ripping, I guess the original signal is not
capturing the essentials of the original record. What are others
opinion about this? Since I am planning on putting a bunch of time in
the near future on ripping my vinyl, I would like to get the best
results the first time around. In addition, I would like to have my
ripped vinyl at the same volume levels as my other ripped mp3's
(Nothing more annoying than two songs with very different volume
levels).

I am also in the process of moving the turntable to another amp (an
old Denon circa 1988) and another computer (also using a SB Live Card)
to see if there is any difference between the two methods. I am then
planning on using the RadioShack amp with the second computer to
determine where the problem lies (that is if the signal is better with
the Denon). I will let you know the results of those tests later this
week.

Another quick question regards editing the WAV or the MP3 file.
Should all cleaning of recorded vinyl tracks (back noise, clicks,
etc.) be done on the WAV file or can they also be done on the MP3
translated files? Can mp3s' volume level be boosted like the wav
file?

Also, when translating the wav files to mp3, should I use the standard
128kps sampling, or can I get by with a slower rate without affecting
sound quality?

Thanks again for all your comments.

PeterV


(Clive Backham) wrote in message ...
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:32:59 -0000, (Dave Platt)
wrote:

I suspect that you're using a phono preamp which was designed to work
safely with the older (pre-CD) de facto standard for "line level"
inputs, which was 1 volt peak-to-peak. Newer receivers and preamps
(and perhaps your sound card as well) are designed for a higher 2 volt
peak-to-peak signal level, which is what CD players put out.

He's using an SB Live, which IIRC has a line input sensitivity around
the 150mV mark. But I'm not absolutely sure about this, and couldn't
find any specs on the Creative website to confirm it.

The 2:1 voltage difference is 6 dB, or about half of the shortfall you
are observing. The remaining 6 dB might simply be due to having a
lower-than-usual output level from your cartridge, or to conservative
design on the part of the phono-preamp maker.

It's a B&O turntable, and they were commonly fitted with Ortofon
cartridges, which do tend to have rather lower output levels than
other mainstream MM carts. But unless it's an MC (rare on a B&O) that
still wouldn't explain a 12dB shortfall.

I suggest that you simply capture the audio at your current signal
level. There's no really good reason to try to "push" the input up to
near digital full-scale during the data capture,

The SB Live's noise floor is typically around -70dB, so peaking at
-12dB is dangerously close to losing some resolution from a really
good LP. IMHO when recording LPs to an SB Live one should aim for a
peak level no worse than -6dB.

and there's a good
reason _not_ to try. Remember, if you hit 0 dB, the signal will
clip... HARD. This can sound quite harsh, and it's an irrecoverable
form of damage to the signal.

Very true. In fact, on many SB Lives, they clip in the analogue domain
somewhere around -2dB. You can put 10 volts in and you'll still never
see 0dB coming out. So aim to peak around -6dB to -4dB.

If you really _do_ want to push the gain up nearer 0 dB during
capture, you'll either need a sound card with a more sensitive input,
or need to boost the gain in the phono preamp by altering the circuitry.

Better soundcards (with lower noise floors) tend to have *less*
sensitive line inputs than the SB Live. Perhaps it's time to consider
a different phono preamp with higher gain (and better sound quality to
boot).

"Clive Backham" wrote in message


On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:32:59 -0000, (Dave Platt)
wrote:

I suspect that you're using a phono preamp which was designed to work
safely with the older (pre-CD) de facto standard for "line level"
inputs, which was 1 volt peak-to-peak. Newer receivers and preamps
(and perhaps your sound card as well) are designed for a higher 2
volt peak-to-peak signal level, which is what CD players put out.

He's using an SB Live, which IIRC has a line input sensitivity around
the 150mV mark. But I'm not absolutely sure about this, and couldn't
find any specs on the Creative website to confirm it.

It's closer to 1 volt, which proabably explains Platt's observations that
the tape output (nominally ca. 250 mv) of his old integrated amp peaks out
at about 12 dB down.

A possible solution to the problem can also be found at Radio Shack as part
330-1109. They sell a little battery-powered headphone booster that is known
to much of the rest of the world as the "Boostaroo" for about $20. It turns
out to be a super-clean, super-quiet general-purpose audio amplifier that
puts out about a 1 volt signal max, with about 6 dB of gain that happens to
be able to drive low impedance loads quite well.

I recommend transcribing vinyl with about 6 dB worth of headroom and
bringing up the levels in the digital domain as required. Freebie audio
editors such as the freeware "Audacity" have effective digital volume
controls.

"Clive Backham" wrote in message


On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:32:59 -0000, (Dave Platt)
wrote:

I suspect that you're using a phono preamp which was designed to work
safely with the older (pre-CD) de facto standard for "line level"
inputs, which was 1 volt peak-to-peak. Newer receivers and preamps
(and perhaps your sound card as well) are designed for a higher 2
volt peak-to-peak signal level, which is what CD players put out.

He's using an SB Live, which IIRC has a line input sensitivity around
the 150mV mark. But I'm not absolutely sure about this, and couldn't
find any specs on the Creative website to confirm it.

It's closer to 1 volt, which proabably explains Platt's observations that
the tape output (nominally ca. 250 mv) of his old integrated amp peaks out
at about 12 dB down.

A possible solution to the problem can also be found at Radio Shack as part
330-1109. They sell a little battery-powered headphone booster that is known
to much of the rest of the world as the "Boostaroo" for about $20. It turns
out to be a super-clean, super-quiet general-purpose audio amplifier that
puts out about a 1 volt signal max, with about 6 dB of gain that happens to
be able to drive low impedance loads quite well.

I recommend transcribing vinyl with about 6 dB worth of headroom and
bringing up the levels in the digital domain as required. Freebie audio
editors such as the freeware "Audacity" have effective digital volume
controls.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clive Backham" wrote in message

He's using an SB Live, which IIRC has a line input sensitivity around
the 150mV mark. But I'm not absolutely sure about this, and couldn't
find any specs on the Creative website to confirm it.

It's closer to 1 volt, which proabably explains Platt's observations that
the tape output (nominally ca. 250 mv) of his old integrated amp peaks out
at about 12 dB down.

My old SB-live had an input sensitivity of around Clive's figure. It
produced 0dBFS for 1 V RMS in when the SB mixer input level control was set
to approximately half travel.
Maybe the OP hasn't adjusted the recording level in the SB mixer? (or
Windows mixer)

TonyP.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clive Backham" wrote in message

He's using an SB Live, which IIRC has a line input sensitivity around
the 150mV mark. But I'm not absolutely sure about this, and couldn't
find any specs on the Creative website to confirm it.

It's closer to 1 volt, which proabably explains Platt's observations that
the tape output (nominally ca. 250 mv) of his old integrated amp peaks out
at about 12 dB down.

My old SB-live had an input sensitivity of around Clive's figure. It
produced 0dBFS for 1 V RMS in when the SB mixer input level control was set
to approximately half travel.
Maybe the OP hasn't adjusted the recording level in the SB mixer? (or
Windows mixer)

TonyP.

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:07:22 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Clive Backham" wrote in message

He's using an SB Live, which IIRC has a line input sensitivity around
the 150mV mark. But I'm not absolutely sure about this, and couldn't
find any specs on the Creative website to confirm it.

It's closer to 1 volt, which proabably explains Platt's observations that
the tape output (nominally ca. 250 mv) of his old integrated amp peaks out
at about 12 dB down.

Oh right, thanks for clearing that up.

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:07:22 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Clive Backham" wrote in message

He's using an SB Live, which IIRC has a line input sensitivity around
the 150mV mark. But I'm not absolutely sure about this, and couldn't
find any specs on the Creative website to confirm it.

It's closer to 1 volt, which proabably explains Platt's observations that
the tape output (nominally ca. 250 mv) of his old integrated amp peaks out
at about 12 dB down.

Oh right, thanks for clearing that up.

On 18 Nov 2003 10:00:40 -0800, (PeterV) wrote:

Thanks for all the great comments. I was going to post a follow-up
regarding boosting the digital signal post ripping. It seems Clive
suggests that my peaks of -12db (in reality the peak does reach -9db
at times) are not good enough for capture even if I might boost the
amplification post ripping, I guess the original signal is not
capturing the essentials of the original record.

OK, the point is this. Since the noise floor of the SB Live is about
-70dB, then recording an LP (which on a good day may achieve 60dB
dynamic range) to a peak level of around -12dB puts the lowest level
signals on the LP beneath the noise level of the soundcard. At that
point they are lost. Boosting levels afterwards merely boosts the
soundcard's noise floor along with the recorded signal.

You have two options: get a higher peak recording level so that the SB
Live's noise floor always remains below that of the LP itself, or
change to a soundcard with a lower noise floor (eg. M-Audio AP2496,
Echo Mia, etc).

.... Since I am planning on putting a bunch of time in
the near future on ripping my vinyl, I would like to get the best
results the first time around.

Right, here is a crucial bit of info. You want to record your LPs just
the once and get really good results. In that case, you certainly need
a better phono preamp than the Radio Shack one, and many people
(myself included) would argue that you need a better soundcard than a
SB Live. Also make sure your B&O turntable is properly set up, and get
a new stylus for the cartridge. And most of all, get the LPs properly
cleaned before recording them.

In addition, I would like to have my
ripped vinyl at the same volume levels as my other ripped mp3's
(Nothing more annoying than two songs with very different volume
levels).

If some of those MP3s were ripped from commercial CDs, you'll probably
find that even after normalising the LP recordings to 0dB they still
won't sound as loud. This is due to the dynamic range compression
applied to most modern CDs (specifically to make them sound louder).
If you definitely want your LP recordings to be as loud, then you'll
have to experiment with dynamic range compression.

Another quick question regards editing the WAV or the MP3 file.
Should all cleaning of recorded vinyl tracks (back noise, clicks,
etc.) be done on the WAV file or can they also be done on the MP3
translated files?

Do all your processing on WAV files. This maximises the number of
tools available to you (many of which only work on WAV files). Convert
to MP3 as the last step prior to burning.

Also, when translating the wav files to mp3, should I use the standard
128kps sampling, or can I get by with a slower rate without affecting
sound quality?

MP3 at 128kbps is actually pretty poor quality. You should be thinking
about higher bit rates, not lower, if you want decent quality.

And whatever else you do, make sure you keep a reference archive of
the original uncompressed WAV files (ideally on data format CDRs) in
case a different (better?) encoding scheme comes along in the future.

On 18 Nov 2003 10:00:40 -0800, (PeterV) wrote:

Thanks for all the great comments. I was going to post a follow-up
regarding boosting the digital signal post ripping. It seems Clive
suggests that my peaks of -12db (in reality the peak does reach -9db
at times) are not good enough for capture even if I might boost the
amplification post ripping, I guess the original signal is not
capturing the essentials of the original record.

OK, the point is this. Since the noise floor of the SB Live is about
-70dB, then recording an LP (which on a good day may achieve 60dB
dynamic range) to a peak level of around -12dB puts the lowest level
signals on the LP beneath the noise level of the soundcard. At that
point they are lost. Boosting levels afterwards merely boosts the
soundcard's noise floor along with the recorded signal.

You have two options: get a higher peak recording level so that the SB
Live's noise floor always remains below that of the LP itself, or
change to a soundcard with a lower noise floor (eg. M-Audio AP2496,
Echo Mia, etc).

.... Since I am planning on putting a bunch of time in
the near future on ripping my vinyl, I would like to get the best
results the first time around.

Right, here is a crucial bit of info. You want to record your LPs just
the once and get really good results. In that case, you certainly need
a better phono preamp than the Radio Shack one, and many people
(myself included) would argue that you need a better soundcard than a
SB Live. Also make sure your B&O turntable is properly set up, and get
a new stylus for the cartridge. And most of all, get the LPs properly
cleaned before recording them.

In addition, I would like to have my
ripped vinyl at the same volume levels as my other ripped mp3's
(Nothing more annoying than two songs with very different volume
levels).

If some of those MP3s were ripped from commercial CDs, you'll probably
find that even after normalising the LP recordings to 0dB they still
won't sound as loud. This is due to the dynamic range compression
applied to most modern CDs (specifically to make them sound louder).
If you definitely want your LP recordings to be as loud, then you'll
have to experiment with dynamic range compression.

Another quick question regards editing the WAV or the MP3 file.
Should all cleaning of recorded vinyl tracks (back noise, clicks,
etc.) be done on the WAV file or can they also be done on the MP3
translated files?

Do all your processing on WAV files. This maximises the number of
tools available to you (many of which only work on WAV files). Convert
to MP3 as the last step prior to burning.

Also, when translating the wav files to mp3, should I use the standard
128kps sampling, or can I get by with a slower rate without affecting
sound quality?

MP3 at 128kbps is actually pretty poor quality. You should be thinking
about higher bit rates, not lower, if you want decent quality.

And whatever else you do, make sure you keep a reference archive of
the original uncompressed WAV files (ideally on data format CDRs) in
case a different (better?) encoding scheme comes along in the future.