Hi.
My film studio has a DV camera Cannon XL 1 with microphone adapter.
I have mixer Shure FP 24 without line level output so I connect my mixer
with camera using it's chinch audio input. And everything looks fine...
exept... There is really high distortion in the sound... near 2 kHz or 4 kHz
sounding like clip... but the sound level is for example -12 dB.
I tried many connections... and each time the distortion appears.
Somebody had a problem like mine?
Could you tell me sth. about fixing it?
Cables? Connections? Wrong mixer? Wrong impedance?

Franz

This is typical if taking a line level input into a mic pre. Verify the
output level of your mixer and possibly try connecting to the Line level
inputs on the XL1

md

"Franz" wrote in message
...
Hi.
My film studio has a DV camera Cannon XL 1 with microphone adapter.
I have mixer Shure FP 24 without line level output so I connect my mixer
with camera using it's chinch audio input. And everything looks fine...
exept... There is really high distortion in the sound... near 2 kHz or 4
kHz
sounding like clip... but the sound level is for example -12 dB.
I tried many connections... and each time the distortion appears.
Somebody had a problem like mine?
Could you tell me sth. about fixing it?
Cables? Connections? Wrong mixer? Wrong impedance?

Franz

Any Radioshack store would have what is called a "HI to LOW Z"
transformer. It is NOT an adapter but a transformer. Do not buy the
plain adapter that just converts one shape (1/4" female phono plug) to
another (3 pin male XLR). Once u get it, rush home and simply plug it
inline (between the mixer and the cam) and ur done.
Hi impedance is the mic (mic level is hi impedance so as to not lose
much signal over long stretches at a time). Low impedance is the line.
Z is the term for "impedance".

The 274-017 is what u want. Its female 1/4" to male XLR.
The 274-016 is what NOT to buy. This goes FROM mic TO line. U want to
go FROM line TO mic. So there u go. Hope that helps. Its about 15
bucks though. At radioshack that is. U can get it cheaper at other
online electronic stores but then ud have to pay for shipping. So if u
have a lot of stuff u need to get, itd make sense to buy online, if
not, go to radioshack.

"Sean Bartholomew" wrote ...
Any Radioshack store would have what is called a "HI to LOW Z"
transformer. It is NOT an adapter but a transformer. Do not buy the
plain adapter that just converts one shape (1/4" female phono plug) to
another (3 pin male XLR). Once u get it, rush home and simply plug it
inline (between the mixer and the cam) and ur done.
Hi impedance is the mic (mic level is hi impedance so as to not lose
much signal over long stretches at a time). Low impedance is the line.
Z is the term for "impedance".

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing..... Sean knows the words
tranformer and impedance, and the letter Z. Unfortunately, he uses them in
an erroneous fashion.

High Impedance is used by the majority of *consumer* audio equipment, and is
suitable only for short runs (e.g. the 3-foot cable between CD and amplifier
in your stereo)

Low Impedance is used by the majority of *professonal* audio equipment, and
is suitable for long runs (e.g. the 100 yards from the stage to the mixing
shack 1/2 way up the stadium, and back again)

High Impedance - inputs are typically 10,000 Ohms Impedance, the line is
essentially voltage-driven, high frequencies are swiftly lost in the cable's
internal capacitance as the length increases

Low Impedance - inputs are typically 600 Ohms Impedance, essentially
current-driven, high frequencies are lost far less as the length increases

Low Impedance connections are usually Balanced - inside the screen are a
pair of cores which act in "push-pull", and a transformer (or electronic
equivalent, a differential input/output) couples the signal in/out - any
picked up interference reaches both "push" and "pull" identically and
cancels out.

High Impedance connections are usually Unbalanced - a single core inside the
screen, with the screen being the reference ground - less cancelling of
interference.

Mic' Level is substantially lower than Line (consumer line level = 100 mV,
pro 775mV, mic' level typically much less than 10mV) and as MD has stated, a
line level output will overdrive a mic' input, causing substantial
distortion - if the camera has a Line level input, use it! If it hasn't, use
an attenuator (probably available at Radioshack?)

An Impedance transformer will be useful to convert from high to low or low
to high, but doesn't in itself change a line level to mic' level, nor vice
versa.

-----------8--- snip radioshackery---------------------------------.

HTH,
Dave H.
(The engineer formerly known as Homeless)

Any Radioshack store would have what is called a "HI to LOW Z"
transformer. It is NOT an adapter but a transformer. Do not buy the
plain adapter that just converts one shape (1/4" female phono plug) to
another (3 pin male XLR). Once u get it, rush home and simply plug it
inline (between the mixer and the cam) and ur done.
Hi impedance is the mic (mic level is hi impedance so as to not lose
much signal over long stretches at a time).

You are wrong on this.

Microphones use low impedance lines so that the signals will travel well over
hundreds of feet. Preferably, low impedance balanced lines are used to further
reduce pickup of extraeneous radio frequency hash as well as hum.





Low impedance is the line.
Z is the term for "impedance".




Line level is usually low impedance and balanced as well. but it can be high
impedance as it is with most home HiFi gear.



The 274-017 is what u want. Its female 1/4" to male XLR.
The 274-016 is what NOT to buy. This goes FROM mic TO line. U want to
go FROM line TO mic. So there u go. Hope that helps. Its about 15
bucks though. At radioshack that is. U can get it cheaper at other
online electronic stores but then ud have to pay for shipping. So if u
have a lot of stuff u need to get, itd make sense to buy online, if
not, go to radioshack.


those adapters have nothing to do with mic and line they are all mivc level
transfromers and only convert impedance.

They will not convert mic level to line level.

Converting line level to mic level CAN be done with a transformer, Radio
inline transfromers are not up to the task.Jensen Transformers are, but are
about $75 each unwired. It is usually done through a resistave network such as
found on a direct box.

The little Beachtek box is what is usually used on a Canon XL1 to get it to
interface with the real world.

Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

"Dave H." wrote in message ...
"Sean Bartholomew" wrote ...
Any Radioshack store would have what is called a "HI to LOW Z"
transformer. It is NOT an adapter but a transformer. Do not buy the
plain adapter that just converts one shape (1/4" female phono plug) to
another (3 pin male XLR). Once u get it, rush home and simply plug it
inline (between the mixer and the cam) and ur done.
Hi impedance is the mic (mic level is hi impedance so as to not lose
much signal over long stretches at a time). Low impedance is the line.
Z is the term for "impedance".

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing..... Sean knows the words
tranformer and impedance, and the letter Z. Unfortunately, he uses them in
an erroneous fashion.

High Impedance is used by the majority of *consumer* audio equipment, and is
suitable only for short runs (e.g. the 3-foot cable between CD and amplifier
in your stereo)

Low Impedance is used by the majority of *professonal* audio equipment, and
is suitable for long runs (e.g. the 100 yards from the stage to the mixing
shack 1/2 way up the stadium, and back again)

High Impedance - inputs are typically 10,000 Ohms Impedance, the line is
essentially voltage-driven, high frequencies are swiftly lost in the cable's
internal capacitance as the length increases

Low Impedance - inputs are typically 600 Ohms Impedance, essentially
current-driven, high frequencies are lost far less as the length increases

Low Impedance connections are usually Balanced - inside the screen are a
pair of cores which act in "push-pull", and a transformer (or electronic
equivalent, a differential input/output) couples the signal in/out - any
picked up interference reaches both "push" and "pull" identically and
cancels out.

High Impedance connections are usually Unbalanced - a single core inside the
screen, with the screen being the reference ground - less cancelling of
interference.

Mic' Level is substantially lower than Line (consumer line level = 100 mV,
pro 775mV, mic' level typically much less than 10mV) and as MD has stated, a
line level output will overdrive a mic' input, causing substantial
distortion - if the camera has a Line level input, use it! If it hasn't, use
an attenuator (probably available at Radioshack?)

An Impedance transformer will be useful to convert from high to low or low
to high, but doesn't in itself change a line level to mic' level, nor vice
versa.

-----------8--- snip radioshackery---------------------------------.

HTH,
Dave H.
(The engineer formerly known as Homeless)


my god, this guy has gone to great lengths to prove only that when he
points a finger, 3 more point back at him. but im not getting into
this ego war.
these are the facts.
yes he is correct. i mistakenly switched the low and hi impedence
issue. my error.
however that was NOT the main issue though he made it that and even
introduced the theory of balanced connections to puff his chest.
something which u could give 2 hoots about. bravo dude.

ur interested in getting a good signal voltage to ur XL-1 from ur line
output of ur mixer. correct?
ALL TRANSFORMERS CHANGE VOLTAGE. how else could ur home be run on 120V
from a 20,000V extension power line outside. see that transformer on
the pole? good.
now the CURRENT remains the same but the VOLTAGE either steps UP or
DOWN. in this case u want it to step DOWN.
i am not only a sound engineer, im a musician AND a commercial video
and jingle producer. im telling u this so that u would feel more
confident about taking this solution. i do this ALL THE TIME. for eg.
i dont like to depend on some club engineer giving me the compression
i need on my voice on any given gig so i carry my own compressor
ONSTAGE. thing is, its made to be used as an outboard piece of gear
out by the mixing console where everything speaks in LINE language
after it enters the board.
so it expects a LINE level signal on the IN but im sending a MIC
signal to it onstage. HOW? by using the opposite of the transformer i
showed u inline between the microphone and the compressor IN. now the
engineer needs a MIC level signal to carry to his snake onstage (which
he would have normally simply connected to the microphone). HOW? by
sticking the SAME THING i recommended to u inline from the OUT of the
compressor LINE out thus changing it BACK to MIC level and the
engineer is happy. and im happy cause my vocal sound great. my soft
notes are heard and i can shout as much as i want keeping the levels
almost constant.
i also just did a DVD of one of our live shows and the stationary
tripoded camera (Cannon XL-1) was fed audio from the mix out of the
board. SAME THING U NEED no? this solution worked. WHY? cause it
ALWAYS WORKS. thats what the damn transformers were built for.
if u dont believe me, carry ur mixer, if its small, to radioshack with
maybe a portable sound device to run through it. use the adapter to ur
XL-1 and u can pay me later.

all advice and no solutions make franz distressed:-)

"Dave H." wrote in message ...
"Sean Bartholomew" wrote ...
Any Radioshack store would have what is called a "HI to LOW Z"
transformer. It is NOT an adapter but a transformer. Do not buy the
plain adapter that just converts one shape (1/4" female phono plug) to
another (3 pin male XLR). Once u get it, rush home and simply plug it
inline (between the mixer and the cam) and ur done.
Hi impedance is the mic (mic level is hi impedance so as to not lose
much signal over long stretches at a time). Low impedance is the line.
Z is the term for "impedance".

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing..... Sean knows the words
tranformer and impedance, and the letter Z. Unfortunately, he uses them in
an erroneous fashion.

High Impedance is used by the majority of *consumer* audio equipment, and is
suitable only for short runs (e.g. the 3-foot cable between CD and amplifier
in your stereo)

Low Impedance is used by the majority of *professonal* audio equipment, and
is suitable for long runs (e.g. the 100 yards from the stage to the mixing
shack 1/2 way up the stadium, and back again)

High Impedance - inputs are typically 10,000 Ohms Impedance, the line is
essentially voltage-driven, high frequencies are swiftly lost in the cable's
internal capacitance as the length increases

Low Impedance - inputs are typically 600 Ohms Impedance, essentially
current-driven, high frequencies are lost far less as the length increases

Low Impedance connections are usually Balanced - inside the screen are a
pair of cores which act in "push-pull", and a transformer (or electronic
equivalent, a differential input/output) couples the signal in/out - any
picked up interference reaches both "push" and "pull" identically and
cancels out.

High Impedance connections are usually Unbalanced - a single core inside the
screen, with the screen being the reference ground - less cancelling of
interference.

Mic' Level is substantially lower than Line (consumer line level = 100 mV,
pro 775mV, mic' level typically much less than 10mV) and as MD has stated, a
line level output will overdrive a mic' input, causing substantial
distortion - if the camera has a Line level input, use it! If it hasn't, use
an attenuator (probably available at Radioshack?)

An Impedance transformer will be useful to convert from high to low or low
to high, but doesn't in itself change a line level to mic' level, nor vice
versa.

-----------8--- snip radioshackery---------------------------------.

HTH,
Dave H.
(The engineer formerly known as Homeless)


my god, this guy has gone to great lengths to prove only that when he
points a finger, 3 more point back at him. but im not getting into
this ego war.
these are the facts.
yes he is correct. i mistakenly switched the low and hi impedence
issue. my error.
however that was NOT the main issue though he made it that and even
introduced the theory of balanced connections to puff his chest.
something which u could give 2 hoots about. bravo dude.

ur interested in getting a good signal voltage to ur XL-1 from ur line
output of ur mixer. correct?
ALL TRANSFORMERS CHANGE VOLTAGE. how else could ur home be run on 120V
from a 20,000V extension power line outside. see that transformer on
the pole? good.
now the CURRENT remains the same but the VOLTAGE either steps UP or
DOWN. in this case u want it to step DOWN.
i am not only a sound engineer, im a musician AND a commercial video
and jingle producer. im telling u this so that u would feel more
confident about taking this solution. i do this ALL THE TIME. for eg.
i dont like to depend on some club engineer giving me the compression
i need on my voice on any given gig so i carry my own compressor
ONSTAGE. thing is, its made to be used as an outboard piece of gear
out by the mixing console where everything speaks in LINE language
after it enters the board.
so it expects a LINE level signal on the IN but im sending a MIC
signal to it onstage. HOW? by using the opposite of the transformer i
showed u inline between the microphone and the compressor IN. now the
engineer needs a MIC level signal to carry to his snake onstage (which
he would have normally simply connected to the microphone). HOW? by
sticking the SAME THING i recommended to u inline from the OUT of the
compressor LINE out thus changing it BACK to MIC level and the
engineer is happy. and im happy cause my vocal sound great. my soft
notes are heard and i can shout as much as i want keeping the levels
almost constant.
i also just did a DVD of one of our live shows and the stationary
tripoded camera (Cannon XL-1) was fed audio from the mix out of the
board. SAME THING U NEED no? this solution worked. WHY? cause it
ALWAYS WORKS. thats what the damn transformers were built for.
if u dont believe me, carry ur mixer, if its small, to radioshack with
maybe a portable sound device to run through it. use the adapter to ur
XL-1 and u can pay me later.

all advice and no solutions make dave distressed:-)

H Sean - Touchy, touchy... If you're going to be one of the 3 fingers
pointing back, at least get your facts right (and have the decency to spell
correctly - there might be my kids reading ;o) Oh, and snipping superfluous
material is considered good netiquette, too?

(Netcops please excuse the top-posting, points are inline)

"Sean Bartholomew" wrote

---------
my god, this guy has gone to great lengths to prove only that when he
points a finger, 3 more point back at him. but im not getting into
this ego war.
these are the facts.
yes he is correct. i mistakenly switched the low and hi impedence
issue. my error.
however that was NOT the main issue though he made it that and even
introduced the theory of balanced connections to puff his chest.
something which u could give 2 hoots about. bravo dude.

ur interested in getting a good signal voltage to ur XL-1 from ur line
output of ur mixer. correct?
ALL TRANSFORMERS CHANGE VOLTAGE. how else could ur home be run on 120V
from a 20,000V extension power line outside. see that transformer on
the pole? good.
now the CURRENT remains the same **[1] but the VOLTAGE either steps UP or
DOWN. in this case u want it to step DOWN.


i am not only a sound engineer, im a musician AND a commercial video
and jingle producer. im telling u this so that u would feel more
confident about taking this solution.

Well, bully for you! I think your advice (well, the theoretical side of it)
comes into the category of free advice everywhere - it's worth exactly what
you pay for it ;o)

i do this ALL THE TIME. for eg.
i dont like to depend on some club engineer giving me the compression
i need on my voice on any given gig so i carry my own compressor
ONSTAGE. thing is, its made to be used as an outboard piece of gear
out by the mixing console where everything speaks in LINE language
after it enters the board.
so it expects a LINE level signal on the IN but im sending a MIC
signal **[2] to it onstage. HOW? by using the opposite of the transformer
i
showed u inline between the microphone and the compressor IN. now the
engineer needs a MIC level signal to carry to his snake onstage (which
he would have normally simply connected to the microphone). HOW? by
sticking the SAME THING i recommended to u inline from the OUT of the
compressor LINE out thus changing it BACK to MIC level and the
engineer is happy **[3]. and im happy cause my vocal sound great. my soft
notes are heard and i can shout as much as i want keeping the levels
almost constant.

And your compressor's quite unhappy - it's being presented with a serious
mismatch on its input (and output, possibly). All input stages are designed
with both a source level and a source impedance in mind, and transorming the
very low voltage from a mic' to a higher voltage will increase the source
impedance by the *square* of the voltage ratio (the power in primary and
secondary windings of the transformer is near-as-damnit equal, ignoring
hysterisis losses in the core, resistance of windings etc, which should be
negligible in a well-designed audio transformer) and using Ohm's laws **[4]
if Vout = 10Vin, and Pout = Pin then Iout = Iin/10, which means that if
V=IR, then Rout = 100Rin. For a well-designed low-impedance input
(particularly if designed around low-noise specific IC's, most of which are
optimised for *very* low source impedances) the input impedance is critical,
and a mismatch will really increase the noise floor and the distortion, and
may well cause a degradation of the frequency response. Bad Idea (
Are you using a guitar compressor or something similar onstage?


i also just did a DVD of one of our live shows and the stationary
tripoded camera (Cannon XL-1) was fed audio from the mix out of the
board. SAME THING U NEED no? this solution worked. WHY? cause it
ALWAYS WORKS. thats what the damn transformers were built for. **[5]
if u dont believe me, carry ur mixer, if its small, to radioshack with
maybe a portable sound device to run through it. use the adapter to ur
XL-1 and u can pay me later.

all advice and no solutions make franz distressed:-)

[1] Watts = Volts x Amps, so 20,000 Volts at 1 Amp becomes 120 V at 1 amp?
so where did the other 19,880 Watts go? That transformer must be getting a
little warm....
[2] in fact mic level at a high source impedance - i guess it rolls off the
bass quite a bit, too, and the engineer probably has to wind the controls a
bit to make up for it?
[3] or the engineer's rolling off the pre-gain on the mixer so it can take a
line-level input at low impedance, which is what you're presenting him with?
[4] (as if it were DC, a gross over-simplification which at least got my
students through their EE exams....)
[5] the "damn transformers" are built for converting a line level signal
between low and high impedance, or (in the case of
worth-their-weight-in-gold exotica) a mic' signal between the two impedance
levels - NOT line to mic' level or vice versa.

Yes, it *may* work if you're lucky, but then sh*t will work for brains if
you're lucky!

HTH,
Dave H.
Not egostistical, just correct

Former senior engineer at a reputable studio equipment / microphone
manufacturer, former on-the-road sound engineer, and former college
electronics lecturer - there, three separate fingers to point back P -
just doing it as a hobby now, as building bits of the 'net pays better and
i've got kids to feed ;o)

whtever guys.
i use it everyday and my VU meters read good signals with these inline
transformers.
CLEAN signals too. so Franz b4 u listen to these KNOCKS, try it b4 u
buy it. ull see.
i also urge all of u who will only go with the $75 and up Di's to
also.
take any line level transformed with one of these things and ull find
NO distortion and no noise going into an input meant for mic level.
the other way around too!! plug a mic in one of these then plug it
into the LINE input of any mixer and ull see healthy signal level.
so u can sit around and theorize all day and write in the groups all u
want.
i LIVE it almost everyday.
this is my last post on this subject.
u needed help franz. here it is. take it or leave it.
bye ands good luck.

PS: only 15 bucks too!


(Richard Kuschel) wrote in message ...

Any Radioshack store would have what is called a "HI to LOW Z"
transformer. It is NOT an adapter but a transformer. Do not buy the
plain adapter that just converts one shape (1/4" female phono plug) to
another (3 pin male XLR). Once u get it, rush home and simply plug it
inline (between the mixer and the cam) and ur done.
Hi impedance is the mic (mic level is hi impedance so as to not lose
much signal over long stretches at a time).

You are wrong on this.

Microphones use low impedance lines so that the signals will travel well over
hundreds of feet. Preferably, low impedance balanced lines are used to further
reduce pickup of extraeneous radio frequency hash as well as hum.





Low impedance is the line.
Z is the term for "impedance".




Line level is usually low impedance and balanced as well. but it can be high
impedance as it is with most home HiFi gear.



The 274-017 is what u want. Its female 1/4" to male XLR.
The 274-016 is what NOT to buy. This goes FROM mic TO line. U want to
go FROM line TO mic. So there u go. Hope that helps. Its about 15
bucks though. At radioshack that is. U can get it cheaper at other
online electronic stores but then ud have to pay for shipping. So if u
have a lot of stuff u need to get, itd make sense to buy online, if
not, go to radioshack.


those adapters have nothing to do with mic and line they are all mivc level
transfromers and only convert impedance.

They will not convert mic level to line level.

Converting line level to mic level CAN be done with a transformer, Radio
inline transfromers are not up to the task.Jensen Transformers are, but are
about $75 each unwired. It is usually done through a resistave network such as
found on a direct box.

The little Beachtek box is what is usually used on a Canon XL1 to get it to
interface with the real world.

Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

On 12 Oct 2003 13:58:31 -0700, (Sean Bartholomew)
wrote:

ALL TRANSFORMERS CHANGE VOLTAGE. how else could ur home be run on 120V
from a 20,000V extension power line outside. see that transformer on
the pole? good.
now the CURRENT remains the same but the VOLTAGE either steps UP or
DOWN. in this case u want it to step DOWN.

Could you send me a schematic of this transformer that steps up
voltage but maintains the same current? I think we may have an
answer to the world's power crisis :-)

On 12 Oct 2003 13:58:31 -0700, (Sean Bartholomew)
wrote:

ALL TRANSFORMERS CHANGE VOLTAGE. how else could ur home be run on 120V
from a 20,000V extension power line outside. see that transformer on
the pole? good.
now the CURRENT remains the same but the VOLTAGE either steps UP or
DOWN. in this case u want it to step DOWN.

Could you send me a schematic of this transformer that steps up
voltage but maintains the same current? I think we may have an
answer to the world's power crisis :-)

Franz,

sounds like mismatch. Use the AUDIO 1 input ! It is software
switchable from line to mic/mic -10 dB pad. Sending mic-Level into M
100 should work.

More infos at:

at: http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/pd150.htm

try the links in that report.

Or search shure.com Knowledgebase for FP 24 for more infos.

Locut

Franz,

sounds like mismatch. Use the AUDIO 1 input ! It is software
switchable from line to mic/mic -10 dB pad. Sending mic-Level into M
100 should work.

More infos at:

at: http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/pd150.htm

try the links in that report.

Or search shure.com Knowledgebase for FP 24 for more infos.

Locut