Sorry if this double-posts, I couldn't tell if it went through on my news
server or not.

Hi all, I heard someone mention the other day that if you wanted to get some
good speaker cable, that you could save money and still get good quality by
just going to the local hardware store and buying some 12/2 electrical cable
(or better), cutting the ends off, and putting on the connector of your
choice.

I am setting up some Community speakers that require amplification and I
wanted to make up my own cables with Speakon connectors. Could I really just
go up to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy 100' of 12/2 or 10/2 cabling and make
my own, or should I buy cables specifically made for audio? Is there really
a difference?

Also, I am assuming the conductors need to be twisted strand, not solid
core, if you were going to use this approach? And lastly, if you can only
find 12/3 cabling, is that a problem? Can you just not use the ground wire
and leave it alone on both ends of the cable?

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I really am not sure if he was just
pulling my leg or if this works OK.

-Ben

Ben Hanson wrote:

Hi all, I heard someone mention the other day that if you wanted to get some
good speaker cable, that you could save money and still get good quality by
just going to the local hardware store and buying some 12/2 electrical cable
(or better), cutting the ends off, and putting on the connector of your
choice.

Sounds like a reasonable thing to do.

I am setting up some Community speakers that require amplification and I
wanted to make up my own cables with Speakon connectors. Could I really just
go up to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy 100' of 12/2 or 10/2 cabling and make
my own, or should I buy cables specifically made for audio? Is there really
a difference?

Cables made for audio will tend to be more flexible and easier to wrap.

Also, I am assuming the conductors need to be twisted strand, not solid
core, if you were going to use this approach? And lastly, if you can only
find 12/3 cabling, is that a problem? Can you just not use the ground wire
and leave it alone on both ends of the cable?

12/3 is fine, but you're paying more money for copper that you aren't using.
Better off to go to 14/4 and double the two conductors up. Two 14 ga.
conductors tied together gave the same cross sectional area as an 11 ga.
conductor.

The 12/2 outdoor lighting cable is great speaker line, but it is not fun
at all to wrap up at the end of a gig. It's probably the cheapest way to
go, though, since a hundred feet of the stuff at Lowe's is $20 or so.

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I really am not sure if he was just
pulling my leg or if this works OK.

Cable is cable. This is low frequency stuff, too. There are some sonic
differences between cables of the same gauge, but none that you'll notice
with typical PA cabinets like the Community stuff, so don't worry about it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Ben Hanson wrote:

Sorry if this double-posts, I couldn't tell if it went through on my

Hi all, I heard someone mention the other day that if you wanted to
get some good speaker cable, that you could save money and still get
good quality by just going to the local hardware store and buying
some 12/2 electrical cable (or better), cutting the ends off, and
putting on the connector of your choice.

This works. I keep a 250 foot spool Home Depot's 12 gauge speaker wire
around. New rolls cost me about $65 and its worth it to me to not come up
short when I've got some speakers to hook up. I think they call it "low
voltage 12 gauge" and its also used for exterior low voltage illumination.
I'll shortly point out some practical disadvantages to this stuff, but for
general use, its fine.

I am setting up some Community speakers that require amplification
and I wanted to make up my own cables with Speakon connectors. Could
I really just go up to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy 100' of 12/2 or
10/2 cabling and make my own, or should I buy cables specifically
made for audio? Is there really a difference?

In general, you don't want the cheapest grade of 12/2 for most audio
applications. That would probably have solid conductors and two separate
wires twisted together. It's house wiring. The problem isn't sound
quality, the problems relate other mechanical and practical issues. I've
hooked up speakers with this stuff and they sounded great.Well, they sounded
great until people stepping on the wire caused so much flexing that the
solid conductor broke off at one end. It does not coil and uncoil very
well. Spool it and unspool it a few times and it gets pretty ugly-looking
and can be nasty to try to get to lay straight.

Home Depot sells some stranded 12/2 that looks like bit like a cheap
extension cord with clear plastic insulation, but really thick. This makes
good speaker cable for many applications. Because it's stranded, it is a bit
limp so it tends to stay where you put it. It coils and uncoils pretty
nicely. It LOOKS right attached to a home stereo or perhaps some monitor
speakers in your studio. If you buy prefab speaker cables for a home stereo,
this is often the type of cable that you get sold. You can pay a buck or two
a foot for the same stuff with an audio-related brand on it. Its like a
quarter a foot on the big spool from Home Depot.

Home Depot also sells other 12/2 cable that is round and has ribbed or
smooth black rubber insulation. It looks like an old-style extension cord.
When you strip it there is some fiber twine inside. This stuff makes great
speaker cables for portable and stage applications. If you buy prefab
speaker cables at a pro audio store, it might look exactly like this stuff.
And, electrically it might be exactly this stuff. Sometimes you can buy this
stuff for less as an assembled cable than the cost of the wires and
connectors. But if you don't live on top of a big pro audio shop, you'll
probably get what you need faster at a hardware store or building supply
store. You can pay maybe half-a-buck a foot or something under a buck for
this stuff. I've gotten some real deals on shelf-weary partial spools of
this stuff, by offering a likely-sounding among of cash for the remainder,
unmeasured.

Let's say you use the *wrong* stuff. For example, the 12/2 house wiring is
stiff and doesn't lay very nicely. Because it's solid it will fracture if
there is a lot of localized flexing. The 12/2 home audio speaker wire
doesn't do very well if it gets stomped on a lot. It gets tattered pretty
fast if used on a busy stage. But, tucked behind cabinets or furniture, it
does just fine for years.

The round black 12/2 stuff that looks like an extension cord is probably
more expensive than all the others, but it has advantages when it comes to
durability in many practical situations. It's double-insulated so running it
through puddles isn't a problem.

Also, I am assuming the conductors need to be twisted strand, not
solid core, if you were going to use this approach?

Yes. You can count on speaker cables sustaining a lot of flexing, so at
least moderately fine stranding is a good thing. Hyper-fine stranded cable
can feel really nice in your hand, but ultra-fine strands are more
susceptible to corrosion. You often pay a premium for hyper-fine stranding,
but the law of diminishing returns is at play.

And lastly, if you can only find 12/3 cabling, is that a problem?

Not usually. Extra conductors just makes the cables costlier, heavier and
bulkier.

Can you just not use the ground wire and leave it alone on both ends of
the cable?

Yes. Or you can parallel it with one conductor or the other, and cut the
resistance of the cable by about 1/3.

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I really am not sure if he was
just pulling my leg or if this works OK.

The important things to keep in mind relate to keeping the resistance low
enough so that the frequency response of the speakers is not significantly
diminished by resistive losses in the wire acting on the impedance curve of
the speakers, and simply having something that makes sense from a durability
and aesthetics standpoint.

20 KHz isn't that high of a frequency from a power transmission standpoint
over a few feet or a few hundred feet. Anybody who talks about skin effect
is pulling your leg. The big issues are series resistance and to a lesser
degree series inductance. But for ordinary speaker cables a few dozen feet
long, 12 gauge is pretty much the size that fits all. It's often overkill,
but it's so cheap who cares?

Ben Hanson wrote:

Hi all, I heard someone mention the other day that if you wanted to get some
good speaker cable, that you could save money and still get good quality by
just going to the local hardware store and buying some 12/2 electrical cable
(or better), cutting the ends off, and putting on the connector of your
choice.

Corrrect.

I am setting up some Community speakers that require amplification and I
wanted to make up my own cables with Speakon connectors. Could I really just
go up to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy 100' of 12/2 or 10/2 cabling and make
my own, or should I buy cables specifically made for audio? Is there really
a difference?

The hardware store is your friend. While there can be differences in
conductor, insulation and jacketing materials, the main thing is that
the cable is sufficient for the power you will send through it. Issues
of flexibility, durability, snobappealability and more (your imagination
may know no limits g) may or may not be important to you. But Home
Depot 12/2 is going to work just fine, because the biggest difference
between it and fancy speaker cables is how much the manufacturer spends
per foot of cable on advertising.

For giggles go to Google's Advanced Usenet Group search and look for a
rec.audio.pro post by Arny Krueger with Home Depot in the body.

http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en

--
ha

In article writes:

I heard someone mention the other day that if you wanted to get some
good speaker cable, that you could save money and still get good quality by
just going to the local hardware store and buying some 12/2 electrical cable
(or better), cutting the ends off, and putting on the connector of your
choice.

That sounds like you're describing cutting the connectors off an
extension cord and using it as speaker wire. I don't recall if they
make 2-wire #12 extension cords, I think they're all 3-wire. Nothing
wrong with using three-conductor cable but it's cheaper to buy 12-2
off the roll, with no connectors, and if you have to carry long pieces
very far you'll apreciate the saving in weight.

Could I really just
go up to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy 100' of 12/2 or 10/2 cabling

Sure. The only difference between ordinary electrical wire and special
audio speaker cable is that the audio cable has the fingernails of
marketing managers woven in with the conductors.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"hank alrich" wrote in message
.. .

For giggles go to Google's Advanced Usenet Group search and look for a
rec.audio.pro post by Arny Krueger with Home Depot in the body.

http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en




OK, and which of the "about 210 posts" that Google found is THE funny one?

http://www.google.com/groups?as_epq=...eger&lr=&hl=en


Kendall

"Kendall" wrote in message
. com...

"hank alrich" wrote in message
.. .

For giggles go to Google's Advanced Usenet Group search and look for a
rec.audio.pro post by Arny Krueger with Home Depot in the body.

http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en




OK, and which of the "about 210 posts" that Google found is THE funny one?


http://www.google.com/groups?as_epq=...eger&lr=&hl=en



Sorry, actually its only "about 18 posts". I forgot to specify that I only
wanted results from rec.audio.pro. Still, I'm not sure which of the (about)
18 is the one you are referring to, and din't want to try and find out by
clicking on each one...
Maybe next time you could find THE funny one and make a link to it? Yeah, I
know, too much trouble. I don't blame you.
And, I wonder why Google says "about" 18 posts? Does it not know what it
found?


http://www.google.com/groups?as_epq=... er&lr=&hl=en

Kendall

Can you use that kind of cable though? Isn't that for low-voltage apps only?

-Ben

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Ben Hanson wrote:

Hi all, I heard someone mention the other day that if you wanted to get
some
good speaker cable, that you could save money and still get good quality
by
just going to the local hardware store and buying some 12/2 electrical
cable
(or better), cutting the ends off, and putting on the connector of your
choice.

Sounds like a reasonable thing to do.

I am setting up some Community speakers that require amplification and I
wanted to make up my own cables with Speakon connectors. Could I really
just
go up to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy 100' of 12/2 or 10/2 cabling and
make
my own, or should I buy cables specifically made for audio? Is there
really
a difference?

Cables made for audio will tend to be more flexible and easier to wrap.

Also, I am assuming the conductors need to be twisted strand, not solid
core, if you were going to use this approach? And lastly, if you can only
find 12/3 cabling, is that a problem? Can you just not use the ground
wire
and leave it alone on both ends of the cable?

12/3 is fine, but you're paying more money for copper that you aren't
using.
Better off to go to 14/4 and double the two conductors up. Two 14 ga.
conductors tied together gave the same cross sectional area as an 11 ga.
conductor.

The 12/2 outdoor lighting cable is great speaker line, but it is not fun
at all to wrap up at the end of a gig. It's probably the cheapest way to
go, though, since a hundred feet of the stuff at Lowe's is $20 or so.

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I really am not sure if he was just
pulling my leg or if this works OK.

Cable is cable. This is low frequency stuff, too. There are some sonic
differences between cables of the same gauge, but none that you'll notice
with typical PA cabinets like the Community stuff, so don't worry about
it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

x-no archive: yes

Kendall wrote:

Still, I'm not sure which of the (about)
18 is the one you are referring to

http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&l...hreadm=YffA6.6
19%24mN.200137762%40newssvr10-int.news.prodigy.com&rnum=6&prev=/groups%3
Fq%3D%2B%2522Home%2BDepot%2522%2Bgroup:rec.audio.p ro%2Bauthor:Arny%2Baut
hor:Krueger%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3DYffA6.6
19%2524mN.200137762%2540newssvr10-int.news.prodigy.com%26rnum%3D6

Message 1 in threadFrom: Arny Krueger )
Subject: One reason why some power amps sound different

*
View this article onlyNewsgroups: rec.audio.pro, rec.audio.tech
Date: 2001-04-02 03:24:05 PST

People are asking me why their listening tests are providing positive
outcomes in the power amp DBT at
http://www.pcabx.com/product/amplifi...-850/index.htm . The most
obvious technical effect in those tests is a 0.5 dB dip in amplifier
frequency response around 4 KHz with a loudspeaker load.

I built a jig for testing the output impedances of power amps. I have
only SS power amps on hand, but apparently even a small selection of
them can provide a few surprising results:

Amp Z(out) @20 Hz Z(out) @1 KHz Z(out) @20 KHz

Dyna 120 1.2 ohms 0.12 ohms 0.26 ohms
Dyna 400 0.18 ohms 0.18 ohms 0.6 ohms
USA 850 0.9 ohms 0.05 ohms 0.38 ohms
Tripath T10 0.40 ohms 0.40 ohms 3.35 ohms

The Dyna 120 is "pre-TIP mod".

The Tripath is a switch-mode amplifier and the relatively high output
impedance is due to the low pass filters found at the output of most
switchmode power amps.

The high output impedance of the amps at 20 KHz is largely due to the
output inductor that virtually every solid state amplifier has.

The Dyna 120's reputation for poor reliability is probably partially
due to the minimal effective size of its inductor, due to the
"shorted turn" effect of the aluminum electrolytic capacitor cans
that they were wound on.

The high output impedance of the Dyna 120 at low frequencies is due
to the output coupling capacitor.

The relatively high output impedance of the QSC USA 850 at low
frequencies is due to the fact that the power supply filter capacitor
is effectively in series with the output of the amp due to the
unusual power supply design that allows them to mount the output
devices without insulators.

Just for grins I measured some speaker cable as well:

8' of Monster M2.2 ($449 audiophile net at
http://www.audiofx.com/cgi-bin/Audio...ster/M2.2s.CFM ) versus an
identical length of Home Depot 12 gauge stranded wire (my cost
$4.00):

Cable Z(series) @20 Hz Z(series) @1 KHz Z(series) @20 KHz

M2.2 0.03 ohms 0.03 ohms
0.23 ohms
HD 12 gauge 0.027 ohms 0.03 ohms 0.22
ohms

Ben Hanson wrote:
Can you use that kind of cable though? Isn't that for low-voltage apps only?

200 watts into 8 ohms... you can do the V^2/R=P yourself. Speaker signals
_are_ low voltage applications, unless you're running high-Z distributed
systems where you crank the voltage up very high to reduce losses in long
cable runs.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."