Panzzi wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote in
:

I also rather suspect Panzzi is going to be on the butt end of load of
kicking when the $7k of gear he bought sounds crap in his echo chamber
regardless of the number of busses !

What is that to do with the "bus" question? I have question, so I post here
to seek for answer/suggestion, if you can't give one or unwilling to give
one, then don't waste your time here.

Actually - it's entirely to the point.

13 busses, regardless of cost, aren't going to save your sound. That is *very*
on-topic.

You came here asking for advice and got it.

*Every* single poster said that you needed to address the acoustic issues of
your venue as a priority.

You didn't like it and tried a.a.p.l-s. As warned in advance, you got totally
flamed. Live sound engineers have seen it all before. I can *personally* tell
you how bad a venue like yours will sound ! It's agonisingly bad. The only time
*ever* the band contracting me refused to pay - despite the obvious problems.
Now consider how you're going to look when you're on the end of that kind of
result !

Actually, of all the respondents, I am possibly the only one who thinks that
your $7k might just be stretchable to provide something 'workable'. I've had to
do low budget installs myself in the past - very careful selection of gear plus
cost-trimming in less critical areas can work - as long as you're aware of the
compromises.

Even so - no amount of gear will change the sound of your hall.

Until you actually admit that - you're essentially wasting your ( and our )
time.

This is for *YOUR* benefit not mine - you are getting for free the combined
experience of industry experts totaling probably millenia in the industry. We
want to help - but if you *DON'T WANT TO BE HELPED* you'll get very short
shrift.


The easiest way to solve a problem is you have unlimited resource.

Even an unlimited resource won't make the acoustics of your building great if
it's built the way you said.


Unfortunately, 9999 out of 10000 times that is not the case. So the best
way is to utilize the resource to get the best outcome. I can assume you
that even I can have a $700,000 budget, somebody can still walk in and
comment: "it sounds crap!"

Some do that - they're called c***s. Some are Christian too. Maybe most ?


Sadly the *holy* are unstoppable in their belief. Maybe he reckons God
[1] will make it sound better ?

Graham

[1] insert choice of God of your preference.

Mr. Graham, that is kind of an insult to a Christian (if not all),

Yup - it would be an insult to a Moslem too. I'm fair like that.

That's *kinda my point* !!!! You won't accept Allah is God and they won't
accept yours - and so on etc all over the rest of the world's religions.

You expect any sane person to think *any* of them are right ?

Seriously ?

I am
sorry that you don't believe in Christ,

Actually, I believe that Jesus lived and preached nice things and set some
great examples for us to follow. I don't happen to believe he's the 'Son of
God' however. A damn fine bloke to be very much admired - a saint in the
generic meaning of the word sure.


but that didn't mean that you can
insult Christian.

Well, actually, I can do what I like. It's called self-determination.


And you are right, our belief and our faith drive us,
everything, and yes, God CAN make it sound great if he wants to.

In *your* eyes.


Somebody in this forum once called you a hatred of Christian, I didn't
believe it back then, but now...

I'm not a Christian hater but I really worry about so-called 'Christians'
sometimes. Don't worry, not exclusively Christians. Moslems worry me more and
Catholics are well..... just Catholics I guess. Not sure how their bishops are
capable of freely brushing child abuse under the carpet - nor how the African
ones are able to claim that condoms aren't effective in helping stop the spread
of Aids - but I digress.


Regds, Graham



p.s. also posted to aapl-s since this is really a live post. I reckon they'll
get the drift.

Pooh Bear wrote in
:

You came here asking for advice and got it.

*Every* single poster said that you needed to address the acoustic
issues of your venue as a priority.

You didn't like it and tried a.a.p.l-s. As warned in advance, you got
totally flamed. Live sound engineers have seen it all before. I can
*personally* tell you how bad a venue like yours will sound ! It's
agonisingly bad. The only time *ever* the band contracting me refused
to pay - despite the obvious problems. Now consider how you're going
to look when you're on the end of that kind of result !

The reason that I post the same question on AAPLS was because one of the
guys here told me I should not post that kind of question in RAP, I
should go there, so I did. But obviously that is a bad suggestion.

The reason that I asked for suggestion for mixer is obvious, or might be
I didn't state it clear, it is not for the Family Life Center that I
posted before. It is for an upgrade in our sanctuary, so it got nothing
to do with "I ignore the previous suggestion and want to get around with
it". Sorry for the misunderstanding.

And, seriously, I don't know about you, but obviously, nobody in our
church know about acoustic enough, as a matter of fact, you can't find a
church that include one of each professional among the congegration! But
thing needs to be done, that's why I asked for suggestion. And yes, I
have already contact an acoustic consultant around town to give me a
quote.

Thank you for your feedback.

Well, actually, I can do what I like. It's called self-determination.

I don't want to go deep into religion, what I would like to say is as a
Christian, even I cannot accept another religions, I still would not
insult anyone about their religions. That is some basic manner, oh yes,
we are in America, we have free speech (hang on, we don't), but the way
you comment(s) will reflect your personality! Who will look bad? Not the
church, not one Christian, but it is YOU, think about it.

Panzzi

Panzzi wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote in
:

You came here asking for advice and got it.

*Every* single poster said that you needed to address the acoustic
issues of your venue as a priority.

You didn't like it and tried a.a.p.l-s. As warned in advance, you got
totally flamed. Live sound engineers have seen it all before. I can
*personally* tell you how bad a venue like yours will sound ! It's
agonisingly bad. The only time *ever* the band contracting me refused
to pay - despite the obvious problems. Now consider how you're going
to look when you're on the end of that kind of result !

The reason that I post the same question on AAPLS was because one of the
guys here told me I should not post that kind of question in RAP, I
should go there, so I did. But obviously that is a bad suggestion.

The reason that I asked for suggestion for mixer is obvious, or might be
I didn't state it clear, it is not for the Family Life Center that I
posted before. It is for an upgrade in our sanctuary, so it got nothing
to do with "I ignore the previous suggestion and want to get around with
it". Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No problem.

In which case, I recommend stating the exact requirements you are looking
for as opposed to generalisations e.g. like type of usage basically, and you
will surely get advice regarding the related benefits of differing mixer
designs and features.

There is nothing *better* about the number of busses, unless you know how
many you will actually need. Here lies the rub. A 200 bus mixer is no better
than a 2 bus if you only *need* 2 !


And, seriously, I don't know about you, but obviously, nobody in our
church know about acoustic enough, as a matter of fact, you can't find a
church that include one of each professional among the congegration! But
thing needs to be done, that's why I asked for suggestion. And yes, I
have already contact an acoustic consultant around town to give me a
quote.

I'm genuinely *very* pleased to hear that. I hope it works out well.


Thank you for your feedback.

YW.


Well, actually, I can do what I like. It's called self-determination.

I don't want to go deep into religion, what I would like to say is as a
Christian, even I cannot accept another religions, I still would not
insult anyone about their religions.

Actually, I never hold anything against anyone for holding religious views.
That is admirable in some ways. I have more of a problem with what is
promulgated on the followers' behalf by those who choose to use religions
for their own ends.

For an excellent example see Usama bin Laden. And the way he twists religion
to suit his ends. Sadly, his methods aren't unique to him or his religion.


That is some basic manner, oh yes,
we are in America, we have free speech (hang on, we don't), but the way
you comment(s) will reflect your personality! Who will look bad? Not the
church, not one Christian, but it is YOU, think about it.

That's a matter of opinion, it would seem.

Best luck anyway.


Wishing you well, Graham

Pooh Bear wrote in
:

There is nothing *better* about the number of busses, unless you know
how many you will actually need. Here lies the rub. A 200 bus mixer is
no better than a 2 bus if you only *need* 2 !

So, my question is: what kind of "application" can I use to utilize these
bus? And/or how to count them... with example? Wow... that makes two
questions, doesn't it?

Thank you in advance.

Panzzi

Panzzi wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote in
:


There is nothing *better* about the number of busses, unless you know
how many you will actually need. Here lies the rub. A 200 bus mixer is
no better than a 2 bus if you only *need* 2 !


So, my question is: what kind of "application" can I use to utilize these
bus?

The more buses there are in the mixer (particularly subroups and other buses which lie between the inputs and whatever outputs you are using) the more potential gainstaging, noise, and grounding problems the designer has to overcome.

Buses and applications? Pre/post fader, pre/post EQ aux buses to start. Main outs, tape outs, matrix outs, subgroup outs and that's even before you start with VCA's...


Hint: At the low end of the market, the smaller Mackie boards (less inputs and less buses) are quieter and generally sound better.

"Kurt Albershardt" wrote in message
...
The more buses there are in the mixer (particularly subroups and other
buses which lie between the inputs and whatever outputs you are using) the
more potential gainstaging, noise, and grounding problems the designer has
to overcome.

I'm not sure why unused buses should add problems, switch them out of the
main mix.
OTOH if you really need them ...........

TonyP.

Panzi,

I am also specifying a new board for our church. The current board has a
left and a right main output, A single monitor line and a single MONO
combined (Post left and right mains) line. Making up four master faders.
There is one separate effects send and return. And a built in reverb send.
So I guess there would be five busses (left, right, monitor, effects and
reverb). I am not counting the post mains MONO line.

For a new board I am sketching all the possible alter/stage configurations.
Noting where the monitors are and what is to come out of each monitor. Also
noting the mains speakers, assisted listening transmitter for the hard of
hearing, tape recording feeds (stereo), back rooms (nursery, cry room, two
class rooms, office and Fellowship hall) all on one feed.

Outputs I would have:
2 - for mains left and right
1 - mono for the back rooms
1 - for listening assist transmitter
2 - recording mix
5 - monitors, choir, worship team vocals, worship team instrumentation, and
pastors pulpit.
2 - special effects

I figure 13 minimum. Or 2 mains and 11 sub send busses.

For inputs - Again sketching the locations or racking add up your input
needs like mics, instrumentation, video, CD player, etc. and figure your
input needs.

Just a sample. I hope this helps.
--
Paul Pinyot



"Panzzi" wrote in message
21...

So, my question is: what kind of "application" can I use to utilize these
bus? And/or how to count them... with example? Wow... that makes two
questions, doesn't it?

Thank you in advance.

Panzzi

The most flexible (most auxes) boards I'm aware of in the highly affordable
range are the Yamahas. I'm not a big fan (in part owing to the channel EQ,
in part owing to the look & feel), but they get the job done. If the budget
allows, the Crest HP8 is the best bang for the buck (8 groups, 10 auxes, two
Matrix mixes) and should be a very good console.



"Paul Pinyot" wrote in
message ...
Panzi,

I am also specifying a new board for our church. The current board has a
left and a right main output, A single monitor line and a single MONO
combined (Post left and right mains) line. Making up four master faders.
There is one separate effects send and return. And a built in reverb
send.
So I guess there would be five busses (left, right, monitor, effects and
reverb). I am not counting the post mains MONO line.

For a new board I am sketching all the possible alter/stage
configurations.
Noting where the monitors are and what is to come out of each monitor.
Also
noting the mains speakers, assisted listening transmitter for the hard of
hearing, tape recording feeds (stereo), back rooms (nursery, cry room, two
class rooms, office and Fellowship hall) all on one feed.

Outputs I would have:
2 - for mains left and right
1 - mono for the back rooms
1 - for listening assist transmitter
2 - recording mix
5 - monitors, choir, worship team vocals, worship team instrumentation,
and
pastors pulpit.
2 - special effects

I figure 13 minimum. Or 2 mains and 11 sub send busses.

For inputs - Again sketching the locations or racking add up your input
needs like mics, instrumentation, video, CD player, etc. and figure your
input needs.

Just a sample. I hope this helps.
--
Paul Pinyot



"Panzzi" wrote in message
21...

So, my question is: what kind of "application" can I use to utilize
these
bus? And/or how to count them... with example? Wow... that makes two
questions, doesn't it?

Thank you in advance.

Panzzi