You know, the longer this thread goes on, the more I get nostalgic for
churches with no sound systems at all. I'm turning into an old fart, I
guess, but I've stood in a hundred-year-old church with a bunch of old
ladies singing hymns they've known for 75 years, no powered gear in the room
other than light bulbs (and those not turned on when it's a sunny day), and
even to this non-Christian it's an experience likely to bring me to tears.

Okay, I see the usefulness of a Family Life Center, yes.

Peace,
Paul

Panzzi wrote:
It just happened that we are talking about a Baptist church here.

I can't let out the secret how I knew that, but awana tell you
it might've had something to do with what you said the gym
was going to be used for.

- Logan

"anthony.gosnell" wrote in message
...
"Panzzi" wrote
Size of gym.: 100'(L) x 70'(W) x 30'(H)
Wall: Tilted concrete wall construction on 3 sides, sheet metal on 4th
side

What exactly is "Tilted concrete"?
Do you perhaps mean tiled concrete?

Tilted concrete wall is where they pour the wall horizontally and "tilt" it
up at the jobsite during assembly. Also called prefab, or "fabcrete."

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
Romeo Rondeau wrote:

Don't worry about them, some people in this group have a hatred for
Christianity.

Hey, I'm no fan of certain religions including various flavours of
Christianity.

I won't let that stop me giving this guy some decent advice though.

Don't be so bigoted pls. It just helps confirm the suspicion that
religious ppl
think they're the bees knees and we heathens are trash.

How am I being bigoted? I'm glad that your hatred for Christianity isn't
going to stop you from giving good advice, maybe it will stop you from
getting s stab in on religion... oh wait...too late.

"Logan Shaw" wrote in message
...
Panzzi wrote:
It just happened that we are talking about a Baptist church here.

I can't let out the secret how I knew that, but awana tell you
it might've had something to do with what you said the gym
was going to be used for.

Family Life Center gave it away for me :-)

My suggestion: don't even THINK of trying to do stage or musical work
in
a room with three concrete walls and one sheet metal wall.

If you CAN damp it down enough to be useful, it will be too dead for
basketball games.

What great advice, Scott! So tell them to build another building? A
church
with $7,000 for a sound system is gonna be able to afford this?

And by the way, why does a basketball game need to be echoey? I'd be
delighted to watch basketball, or play it, in a room with an RT60 of less
than one minute.

You know, it's funny, musical work is done all the time in a room with 3
concrete walls and one sheet metal wall. The nightclub that I was recording
in Saturday is built that way. Does the room sound like Bass Hall? No. Is
the band going to have a great sounding record? You bet. They sold a whole
bunch of copies of the first live record and I have no doubt they will do it
on this one. Audio is a compromise from the get-go. Where engineering comes
in is when you are given a set of circumstances and formulate a plan to get
the job done in the best manner possible. Whining that more money wasn't
spent or that people don't respect the sound people is just plain
unprofessional.

In article writes:

you think I'm wrong. I don't believe he asked for a commentary on how to
manage his churches money or any other church for that matter.

He did mention what his budget was, and I believe it is inadequate to
do a workmanlike job. That's what I told him. The fact that it was a
church helped to explain why the budget might have been inadequate. If
this was someone asking how he, as a musician, should spend $7,000 on
what he had hoped would be a $200,000 studio, would you suggest that I
was against musicians because I told him that he needed to spend more,
suggesting that it's common for musicians to believe that if they
spend money on gear they'll have solved the problems?

How was your post
helpful? What was your intention for posting?

I intended to suggest that while his budget might be sufficient for
sound equipment, there would be more money needed for acoustical
treatment. He may or may not have realized that. I suspect that maybe
he had given it some thought but knew that the money wasn't there.

How did you feel that your
post was going to be interpreted? What did you expect for a reply? Think
about it.

Well, I certainly didn't expect to get this sort of reply from you.
Stick to the facts - the fact is that I didn't believe he had enough
money to do a good job, and that seems to be the concensus.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Romeo Rondeau" wrote
the job done in the best manner possible. Whining that more money wasn't
spent or that people don't respect the sound people is just plain
unprofessional.

The professional aproach is to do it right the first time. In this case
this means hiring an acoustician before you build the hall.

--
Anthony Gosnell

to reply remove nospam.

He did mention what his budget was, and I believe it is inadequate to
do a workmanlike job. That's what I told him. The fact that it was a
church helped to explain why the budget might have been inadequate. If
this was someone asking how he, as a musician, should spend $7,000 on
what he had hoped would be a $200,000 studio, would you suggest that I
was against musicians because I told him that he needed to spend more,
suggesting that it's common for musicians to believe that if they
spend money on gear they'll have solved the problems?

I don't think he was expecting the room to sound like Carnegie Hall. It was
the manner in which you treated him that set me off.


How was your post
helpful? What was your intention for posting?

I intended to suggest that while his budget might be sufficient for
sound equipment, there would be more money needed for acoustical
treatment. He may or may not have realized that. I suspect that maybe
he had given it some thought but knew that the money wasn't there.

I can accept that.


How did you feel that your
post was going to be interpreted? What did you expect for a reply? Think
about it.

Well, I certainly didn't expect to get this sort of reply from you.
Stick to the facts - the fact is that I didn't believe he had enough
money to do a good job, and that seems to be the concensus.

Again, it was the way you replied that I thought was unprofessional. As for
not expecting a reply like this from me, I didn't expect it from you either.
I may have sounded more brash than I intended. I apologize.

Paul Stamler wrote:
Romeo Rondeau wrote in message
...

My suggestion: don't even THINK of trying to do stage or musical work in
a room with three concrete walls and one sheet metal wall.

If you CAN damp it down enough to be useful, it will be too dead for
basketball games.

What great advice, Scott! So tell them to build another building? A church
with $7,000 for a sound system is gonna be able to afford this?

And by the way, why does a basketball game need to be echoey? I'd be
delighted to watch basketball, or play it, in a room with an RT60 of less
than one minute.

It's boring. In a room with a long RT60, you dribble that ball and you
hear it bounce back from the room. A small crowd seems like a huge crowd
cheering you on.

I think Beranek actually wrote a paper about subjective responses to various
acoustical environments that had a nice discussion of sports complexes. I
will see if I can find it when I get back home.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"anthony.gosnell" wrote in message
...
"Romeo Rondeau" wrote
the job done in the best manner possible. Whining that more money wasn't
spent or that people don't respect the sound people is just plain
unprofessional.

The professional aproach is to do it right the first time. In this case
this means hiring an acoustician before you build the hall.

Of course, but it don't happen often.

In article ,
Romeo Rondeau wrote:

"anthony.gosnell" wrote in message
...
"Panzzi" wrote
Size of gym.: 100'(L) x 70'(W) x 30'(H)
Wall: Tilted concrete wall construction on 3 sides, sheet metal on 4th
side

What exactly is "Tilted concrete"?
Do you perhaps mean tiled concrete?

Tilted concrete wall is where they pour the wall horizontally and "tilt" it
up at the jobsite during assembly. Also called prefab, or "fabcrete."

I am seeing brick walls done this way more and more often these days, but
whatever happened to tip-up chimneys? Nobody around here has ever heard
of them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 05:59:45 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

And by the way, why does a basketball game need to be echoey? I'd be
delighted to watch basketball, or play it, in a room with an RT60 of less
than one minute.

Peace,
Paul

Amen Brother! When Scott said that acoustics for a sporting event
needed to be different from that of spoken word, I wondered WHY?
The last time I went to a basket ball game I was in pain at the noise
level in the room.
I have done innumerable performances over 25 years in school gyms with
a small Bose system and depending on the wall treatment and ceiling
shape it varied the sound from passable to horrific.
The client I was accompanying would invariably ask me to do something
about the sound, to which I predictably reply "It's a gym" with an
implied D-UH!
I just redid the sound in my church (Unitarian). After the budget was
submitted they cut it in half. I managed to get the most of right
gear by a congregants generously offer to redo all the wiring and
soldering rather than buying a new snake.
The problem in this church is not acoustic it is a combination of
amateur mic users and literally deaf (three with hearing aids)
amateur soundmen. The new sound system will do nothing to improve
either, I warned them and even offered a workshop on care and use of
gear. Few attended. Non of the soundmen.
I ended up having to train them individually on the new board
repeatedly because they couldn't remember anything since it was all so
different.
One soundman was very upset that the meters had been torn out to make
room for the new board. I explained the board had a built in led and
that it was unnecessary 90% of the time to use them as we never
exceed levels where it was a problem. But he said "since he can't hear
he does sound by looking at them". I threw my hands in the air in
supplication, and I'm a pagan!

In article , (Scott Dorsey)
wrote:

Multipurpose auditoria always turn out to be a really bad idea. They
want a room that works for everything, and they wind up with a room that
doesn't work for anything.


And this is what we call a 'multipurposeless room'.

Scott Fraser

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message ...
Panzzi wrote:

My church is going to build a gym and I'm going to take care of its sound
system.

May I ask your suggestion?

Size of gym.: 100'(L) x 70'(W) x 30'(H)
Wall: Tilted concrete wall construction on 3 sides, sheet metal on 4th side
for future expansion
Frame: Steel frame building
Stage: 48'(W) x 24'(D)
Purpose: vocal, stage, musical
Budget: US$7,000.00

My suggestion: don't even THINK of trying to do stage or musical work in
a room with three concrete walls and one sheet metal wall.

If you CAN damp it down enough to be useful, it will be too dead for
basketball games.
--scott

Too dead for basketball games?
Is there some requirement of which I'm unaware that athletic events
must always have bad sound? I know that they almost always do, but I
never thought it was intentional.

Panzzi wrote in message . 121...
Hi,

My church is going to build a gym and I'm going to take care of its sound
system.

May I ask your suggestion?

Size of gym.: 100'(L) x 70'(W) x 30'(H)
Wall: Tilted concrete wall construction on 3 sides, sheet metal on 4th side
for future expansion
Frame: Steel frame building
Stage: 48'(W) x 24'(D)
Purpose: vocal, stage, musical
Budget: US$7,000.00

Thanks in advance.

Panzzi

If it isn't too late, beg and plead the church council to suspend
proceedings immediately until you can get someone on the design team
that knows how to make a sanctuary sound good and give them the
authority to override an architect that only knows how to make it look
good.
MacLuhan said that the medium is the message but in a church,
mosque, or synagogue the message is the message. No matter how
beautiful the room or how majestic the pipe organ sounds, if the words
of the songs, prayers, and sermons aren't intelligible to everyone
there you might as well use the property for a bowling alley.
I'm coming up on the 1 year anniversary of being drafted to
volunteer to run a (Baptist) church sound system in a sanctuary that
was designed and built (while I wasn't around) with almost no thought
given to sound until after it was nearly finished. As a result they
have a very visually lovely echo chamber. The reverb time is
something like 6 seconds. The standing wave situation is such that I
can feed a single tone into the house speakers and if I walk up the
center aisle quickly it sounds like a Leslie cabinet. It's not
because we don't have decent equipment, it's because the acoustics are
so horrid, and that's because there wasn't somebody involved from the
very beginning that knew what kind of pitfalls to avoid.
The better the acoustics of the room the less you'll need to spend
on sound reinforcement.
If you think I might be able to help get the message through to the
powers that be email me at with your phone
number.

Too dead for basketball games?

Right. Pro basketball arenas are actually built with the thought in mind that
if the crowd sound is really loud it will be more exciting to players &
spectators. Teams refer to certain arenas as 'loud' or not.

Is there some requirement of which I'm unaware that athletic events
must always have bad sound?

It has nothing to do with sound reinforcement. They want the audience response
to be loud.

I know that they almost always do, but I
never thought it was intentional.


That's because the people who want a loud arena (the basketball teams & owners)
are not concerned with the fact that a venue has to take rock concert bookings
to cover costs.

Scott Fraser

Romeo Rondeau wrote:

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
Romeo Rondeau wrote:

Don't worry about them, some people in this group have a hatred for
Christianity.

Hey, I'm no fan of certain religions including various flavours of
Christianity.

I won't let that stop me giving this guy some decent advice though.

Don't be so bigoted pls. It just helps confirm the suspicion that
religious ppl
think they're the bees knees and we heathens are trash.

How am I being bigoted? I'm glad that your hatred for Christianity

Where did I say I had hatred for Christianity ?

I don't. I don't happen to practice conventional Christianity but I admire
its central tenets.

isn't
going to stop you from giving good advice,

Exactly - it won't. I'm not small-minded, unlike ( sadly ) so many
self-appointed so-called 'Christians'.

maybe it will stop you from
getting s stab in on religion... oh wait...too late.

Mmmmmm

They say Satan was / is ? a fallen angel. Maybe he was ****ed off with
humbuggery ?


Graham

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 16:05:42 EST
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:05:42 GMT
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On 2004-03-02 said:
You know, it's funny, musical work is done all the time in a room
with 3 concrete walls and one sheet metal wall. The nightclub that
I was recording in Saturday is built that way. Does the room sound
like Bass Hall? No. Is the band going to have a great sounding
record? You bet. They sold a whole bunch of copies of the first
live record and I have no doubt they will do it on this one. Audio
is a compromise from the get-go. Where engineering comes in is when
you are given a set of circumstances and formulate a plan to get
the job done in the best manner possible. Whining that more money
wasn't spent or that people don't respect the sound people is just
plain unprofessional.
THis might surprise you ROmeo, but you and I agree here.

USe the tools you have in the most effective manner to get the job
done. What gets me and many commenting in such threads is this is the
people who build something knowing from the get-go that they expect it
to serve for live performances and presentations but give no thought
to the sound system.

Before sound reinforcement was a tool churches cathedrals and
auditoriums were built with acoustics in mind. It's one reason I
don't do concerts in sports arenas as a paying punter. I'm not going
to pay big money for an overpriced seat where the sound sucks and my
neighbors have to use binoculars to see the action on stage. IF I'm
being paid we'll try to get a good sound for as many seats as we can
with the tools we have.

I guess mom used to say it best when I was a kid. "If you're dealt
lemons make some lemonade."

A couple of people asked me a year ago about upgrading the sound
system for the fellowship hall. I looked at them and told them
straight out they don't have the budget. THis is a small congregation
these days which didn't used to be. WHEn it comes to priorities
upgrading the hvac systems for the building is a higher priority,
especially when they can borrow my system for special events and get a
good sound. THe jazzercise people who rent the fellowship hall three
nights a week can bring their own g.

i'd love to put them in a better sound system for the fellowship hall
and the sanctuary as well, because sooner or later that old Bogan
thing is going to let its smoke out. I'd also like to provide some
more speakers and provisions for an induction loop system for those
who need it. Even though I'm vice president of the church council
this year however I know that the money isn't there. Other fires need
fighting first.



Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--