On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 01:22:30 GMT, bob wrote:

I have my doubts about clicks. I've played with drummers who
use them all the time and drummers who hate them and think they are
"perfect". and i've recorded with and without... I'm very torn by the
concept for a bunch of reasons, but that said a studio we might record
at is one that insists on clicks.

They seem unclear on who is working for who.

Tell them you're not going to use a click - after you show up for the
session if necessary. If they still insist, pack up your stuff.

Rock and Roll is about doing it your own way. The LAST thing you are
supposed to be thinking about is whether or not you are on "perfect
studio time."

Do you rock without a click? Then do it.




Kurt Riemann

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 06:01:15 -0600, "Romeo Rondeau"
wrote:


"Harvey Gerst" wrote in message
.. .

I haven't found any clicks that are accurate enough for my playing. When
I try
to play along with them, every damn one of them seems to slow down about
1/2 way
thru the first chorus.

That's funny, I had quite a few drummers tell me that the click slowed down.
I tell them it might be time to turn the thing off, they're probably right
:-)


Extra points for click nerds - check the tempo on virtually every song
you love from the 60's and you'll see the same phenomenon on every
chorus - they all speed up. That's why they were Exciting.

I can't remember when or why we decided that was a bad thing. I LIKE
choruses that ramp it up a little bit. It's human. If you're singing
about something exciting, why not act like you believe it?





Kurt Riemann

Kurt Riemann wrote in message
...

Extra points for click nerds - check the tempo on virtually every song
you love from the 60's and you'll see the same phenomenon on every
chorus - they all speed up. That's why they were Exciting.

I can't remember when or why we decided that was a bad thing.

Probably the same time we started making "stars" out of people who couldn't
play. The click was just a necessary evil to make all that editing possible.

In article RsD%b.406032$I06.4408387@attbi_s01, "Ricky W. Hunt"
writes:

Extra points for click nerds - check the tempo on virtually every song
you love from the 60's and you'll see the same phenomenon on every
chorus - they all speed up. That's why they were Exciting.

Listen to Earth Wind and Fire's "September". That thing ends up a hell of a lot
faster than it starts out and it grooves like a mofo. Maybe this is one reason
that sequenced tracks lack the fire of a real band.

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

Garthrr wrote:

Listen to Earth Wind and Fire's "September". That thing ends up a hell of a lot
faster than it starts out and it grooves like a mofo. Maybe this is one reason
that sequenced tracks lack the fire of a real band.

Yes, but that's not to say that tempo variations are the key to a real
band's fire!

My suggestion to the OP is that if he still wants to record at the studio
that insists on using a click track then let them use a click track but
insist that it not be included in the foldback mixes. ;-)

--
================================================== ======================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
| - The Who, Bargain

"Michael R. Kesti" wrote in message
...

My suggestion to the OP is that if he still wants to record at the studio
that insists on using a click track then let them use a click track but
insist that it not be included in the foldback mixes. ;-)


In another post I suggested he "skip" this studio. I knew a guy that had a
small production studio FOR HIRE. But in addition to the people PAYING him,
he made it mandatory that he got total say so, even down to what he would
the person to play! It was nothing but a power struggle and people who I
know what recorded that were NOT happy. They wouldn't have been happy if it
was free. But to PAY to be treated like that...But then again maybe this
engineer could "foresee" the problems, but needed the job and though they
had "potential", but wasn't going to be stuck with endless turd polishing or
putting out a product he might be "embarrassed" of.

In Article ,
(Garthrr) wrote:
In article RsD%b.406032$I06.4408387@attbi_s01, "Ricky W. Hunt"
writes:

Extra points for click nerds - check the tempo on virtually every song
you love from the 60's and you'll see the same phenomenon on every
chorus - they all speed up. That's why they were Exciting.

Listen to Earth Wind and Fire's "September". That thing ends up a hell of a lot
faster than it starts out and it grooves like a mofo. Maybe this is one reason
that sequenced tracks lack the fire of a real band.

Right, but the presumption here is that those who are talking NOW about this
issue have the chops of Earth Wind and Fire and the bands that made the
charts in the 60's.

Unless they do, having a good click comprised of kick and snare can be very
helpful, especially if you're in the the basement doing your own overdubs
and you're not four really good musicans laying the rhythm track in one pass.

As we know,The Beatles' and George Martin's use of "a couple of four track
machines" can in no way be compared to what most of us are bout here.

Regards,

Ty Ford

For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

In Article YdX%b.427788$na.933726@attbi_s04, "Ricky W. Hunt"
wrote:
"Michael R. Kesti" wrote in message
...

My suggestion to the OP is that if he still wants to record at the studio
that insists on using a click track then let them use a click track but
insist that it not be included in the foldback mixes. ;-)


In another post I suggested he "skip" this studio. I knew a guy that had a
small production studio FOR HIRE. But in addition to the people PAYING him,
he made it mandatory that he got total say so, even down to what he would
the person to play! It was nothing but a power struggle and people who I
know what recorded that were NOT happy. They wouldn't have been happy if it
was free. But to PAY to be treated like that...But then again maybe this
engineer could "foresee" the problems, but needed the job and though they
had "potential", but wasn't going to be stuck with endless turd polishing or
putting out a product he might be "embarrassed" of.


Ricky,

Excellent anecdote. I've had people here who are seriously rhythm
challenged. They talk about overdubs, but can't even do a shaker egg overdub
to their own tunes because of the rhythm irregularities of the first pass.

This isn't a "gets faster in the chorus" problem. It's a "this song has
serious meter problems because the player tries to get the licks that just
don't fit" problem.

They don't like having to face the problems that they themselves created
because it means they aren't as good as they thought. If they trained with a
kick and snare click track, I think they could improve; who knows, maybe not.

Regards,

Ty Ford

For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

They don't like having to face the problems that they themselves created
because it means they aren't as good as they thought. If they trained with a
kick and snare click track, I think they could improve; who knows, maybe not.

Very true. When practicing, a metronome is your best friend. It can
be frightening, sometimes, to set half-tempo, then discover you STILL
can't play that tricky passage :-)

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

bob wrote in message . ..

Usually we record onto an otari 1 inch machine and
then it gets dumped into protools or digital performer.

In one of your earlier posts you mentioned that you wanted some ideas
for a comfortable click so you wouldn't burn out yours or the drummers
ears. The most comfortable click I've ever used is the Urei click
sound. It's the sound that a lot of orchestra folks use. It's easy
on the ears and doesn't have a tendency to bleed much becuase it's
sound isn't edgy. You'd have to hear it to appreciate it, but you
might like it. You can download it he
( http://a-no-ne.com/music/motu-mac/clippings/ ). There is also a
link there with instructions on how to install. Just load it into DP
or PT and use that as your metronome source. Maybe this will help you
solve that part of your problem.

Ty Ford wrote:
In Article ,
(Garthrr) wrote:

Listen to Earth Wind and Fire's "September". That thing ends up a hell of a lot
faster than it starts out and it grooves like a mofo. Maybe this is one reason
that sequenced tracks lack the fire of a real band.

Right, but the presumption here is that those who are talking NOW about this
issue have the chops of Earth Wind and Fire and the bands that made the
charts in the 60's.

And even if they do, there is no reason not to have a click track that also
changes tempo based on the song. I have seen that done before, and it can
work very well.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

wrote in message
m...

In one of your earlier posts you mentioned that you wanted some ideas
for a comfortable click so you wouldn't burn out yours or the drummers
ears.

I'm toying with the idea of building a visual click. I really like the
"bouncing ball" idea. Has anybody tried one of these?

"Ty Ford" wrote in message
...

They don't like having to face the problems that they themselves created
because it means they aren't as good as they thought.

Oh, so true. Been there. With others AND with myself. LOL!

wrote in message
...

Sometimes it works. I worked with a songwriter who wanted me to play
bass and keys but replace midi parts with some players, such as a
drummer buddy of his.


I think a really good drummer can work either way. He can play without a
click but still be so almost dead-on (or at least "consistent" in his
variations, if that makes sense) that editing is a breeze. Or he can play
with a click (a straight click with no programmed changes) yet still give
life and "push" to certain sections depending on how the "lays back" or
"anticipates" certain drums. In the end though, it ALWAYS starts with the
performer. If you don't have that, anything else is just going to be a
compromise.

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:46:51 GMT, "Ricky W. Hunt"
wrote:

Or he can play
with a click (a straight click with no programmed changes) yet still give
life and "push" to certain sections depending on how the "lays back" or
"anticipates" certain drums.

Pushing the chorus can be a problem because you "borrow time" from the
verse. You'll hear the slow down from the main tempo to get back in
sync.

If you have a drummer that can pull that off, he probably will sound
Stupendous without the click in the first place.



Kurt Riemann

On 28 Feb 2004 14:53:43 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

And even if they do, there is no reason not to have a click track that also
changes tempo based on the song. I have seen that done before, and it can
work very well.
--scott

Back in the late seventies when I did "Switched-On" style albums . . .

I used to divide an oscillator down from audio frequencies to tempo so
I could play changes from my 2600 keyboard. I still have the
calculator with the equation I'd use taped on it. Back then I'd have
to live with my tempo decisions for a year while I worked on the
pieces, so I took a lot of time getting it right.

I left that period with a firm conviction that you needed to have
absolute control over your machines or else they would cow you into
doing the easy thing - Sounding Like A Machine.

There IS a lot of difference between 120 and 121, and you a subtle
accel from one to the other is unique. Too many tempo changes are
ham-fisted these days.

Give me a drummer who feels the song over a click track ANY DAY.




Kurt "back in my day . . ." Riemann

In article lEu0c.443136$na.1064258@attbi_s04 writes:

I'm toying with the idea of building a visual click. I really like the
"bouncing ball" idea. Has anybody tried one of these?

There was a commercial product shown at NAMM several years ago, and it
just resurfaced a few months back. Though I can't suggest key words to
search for, if you're clever, you'll find a product announcement and a
little discussion about it in the Google archive of this newsgroup.

I've seen it, but never tried to play to it.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article lEu0c.443136$na.1064258@attbi_s04,
Ricky W. Hunt wrote:
wrote in message
om...

In one of your earlier posts you mentioned that you wanted some ideas
for a comfortable click so you wouldn't burn out yours or the drummers
ears.

I'm toying with the idea of building a visual click. I really like the
"bouncing ball" idea. Has anybody tried one of these?

Okay, when we used to do film soundtrack gigs with actual film projection
rather than a crappy little monitor at the conductor's position, we would
get a dupe film made from the workprint, and then somebody (usually the
intern that nobody liked) would go through with a sharp stylus and scratch
the film at specified intervals to make "streamers" that would appear across
the projected screen on the beat. It worked very well.

Today some folks do this with video streamers superimposed on the video
workprint. Others give the conductor a click. Film soundtrack work absolutely
needs to be precise, with the crescendos and decrescendos falling on the
exact frame.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I wonder if I made an AVI that could somehow be imported into a DAW (in my
case Sonar) and synced to the current tempo map if distributing that AVI
(free of course) would violate whoever owns the patent on that "bouncing
baton" or whatever they call it, device?

Kurt Riemann wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:46:51 GMT, "Ricky W. Hunt"
wrote:

Or he can play
with a click (a straight click with no programmed changes) yet still give
life and "push" to certain sections depending on how the "lays back" or
"anticipates" certain drums.

Pushing the chorus can be a problem because you "borrow time" from the
verse. You'll hear the slow down from the main tempo to get back in
sync.


That was more in relation to individual drums than actual tempo changes.

Lines: 37
Message-ID:
X-Trace: ldjgbllpbapjglppdbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcbohk iempkhgofabdfkhboeneagdmedomkfhkncfaaokgiflhgihlbj pbippnceoinfecojabbfckobgkchmapfbooncikondjpneaago gdojjmjppk
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:32:13 EST
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:32:13 GMT
Xref: intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1044020


On 2004-02-24 said:
i should mention that it's pretty straight garagey/pop/rock stuff.
.. Then a click track might be totally out of the question. With
this description, I'd stay 1000 miles away from an edit-happy nut
case. Your songs won't be the same when you're finished.

Amen brother! YOu need to record somewhere that you can all play
together and get a thing going it seems to me.

I've had midi parts for some jingles and some of my own stuff where I
wanted the real drummer and some other instrument replacement to
happen. THen I hired a drummer with good chops and found something to
make him comfortable, whether it was the sound of maraccas doing 8th
notes or a steady rhythm pattern with conga drums etc. being generated
by the drum module.

IF you're not syncing up midi tracks etc. find a place to record where
you can all play down the tunes together for your foundation takes,
even if not everything on the first pass is a keeper or even
recorded.

THis job isn't a nail and you don't need a hammer.




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--



"Standing in the Glare of Quantization" Watch for it on
Empty-Vee.--- Hank Alrich

Lines: 34
Message-ID:
X-Trace: npbhgpngjbkmjfegdbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcbohd cfjajgjjegjemnfbcgpepmajljakaondbjlblihpjbnalfhlbj pbippnceoinfecojabbfckobgkchneeognhdlcndjnpgjklfld hcknaocike
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:42:10 EST
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 02:42:10 GMT
Xref: intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1044097


On 2004-02-24 said:
wrote in message
.. .
I've had midi parts for some jingles and some of my own stuff
where I wanted the real drummer and some other instrument
replacement to happen. THen I hired a drummer with good chops
and found something to Really MIDI and click tracks have nothing to
do with each other, or they don't have to. Your sequencer will
place the notes wherever you play them (at it's highest resolution
of course). So as long as you don't go trying to quantizing them it
shouldn't matter if it was played to a click track or not. Of
course, if you're wanting them to line up on a grid that's a
different story but that's usually done for editing reasons, which
we've already discussed.

IN these cases I had midi keyboard and horn parts etc. that people
needed to play with. I'd play in a bass part using my bass module and
some rhythmic stuff to use instead of the click as I described
earlier. worked well and everything lined up nicely.

tHe midi parts were written and the arrangement pretty well done up
before we brought the live players in in these cases.




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

Lines: 40
Message-ID:
X-Trace: bhmkggakljkaanefdbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcboig anfbllgjaipaklmodoldmkocifcjbkfpaihjjpkhgbclacihbi hliohechmkebfkchgdklbiopcbmolcmpneablbjkhbbjnjhaij ibjlmohifg
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 19:46:46 EST
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 00:46:46 GMT
Xref: intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1046188


On 2004-02-29 said:
wrote in message
Sometimes it works. I worked with a songwriter who wanted me to
play bass and keys but replace midi parts with some players, such
as a drummer buddy of his.
I think a really good drummer can work either way. He can play
without a click but still be so almost dead-on (or at least
"consistent" in his variations, if that makes sense) that editing
is a breeze. Or he can play with a click (a straight click with no
programmed changes) yet still give life and "push" to certain
sections depending on how the "lays back" or "anticipates" certain
drums. In the end though, it ALWAYS starts with the performer. If
you don't have that, anything else is just going to be a compromise.

aS I've found. REal musicians can play with a click and sitll give it
some feel. IT's the amateur players who become intimidated by it.

Btw on this songwriter's project I brought in a session drummer on one
of the tunes that I'd used for some other projects. HE was used to
playing with a click and a drummer with a good sense of the song. IN
fact I did sound for one of his regular band's gigs in trade for him
playing on the session g. Mr. songwriter chose my drummer's version over his
buddy's in a blind test. NEver did tell him his old pal wasn't on one
of the tracks he chose the live drums for.




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--



remember the seven p's of the studio: "Pre-
production planning prevents **** poor performance". ---Fletcher

Lines: 47
Message-ID:
X-Trace: bhmkggakljkaanefdbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcboja ohnbeeaadphfimfbcgpepmajljakaolpadndeiiocgejmbobcm cjkhbgbpoobgnfealbidafnhbcfkfmnojjhgclhlbfohphjoid legfkkpccm
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 12:14:00 EST
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:14:00 GMT
Xref: intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1045282


On 1904-02-28 (TyFord) said:
Ricky, Excellent anecdote. I've had people here who are seriously
rhythm challenged. They talk about overdubs, but can't even do a
shaker egg overdub to their own tunes because of the rhythm
irregularities of the first pass. This isn't a "gets faster in the
chorus" problem. It's a "this song has serious meter problems
because the player tries to get the licks that just don't fit"
problem. They don't like having to face the problems that they
themselves created because it means they aren't as good as they
thought. If they trained with a kick and snare click track, I think
they could improve; who knows, maybe not. Regards,
Sometimes it works. I worked with a songwriter who wanted me to play
bass and keys but replace midi parts with some players, such as a
drummer buddy of his.

WHen we started my main problem with him was his insistence that the
basic back beat we used as his "click" was too loud if he could hear
it at all, then he'd play with his own internal kinda sorta rhythm.
Eventually I found the pocket where he could actually stay with it and
not feel that it overpowered him. Tried every trick in the book, a
touch of a room verb on the drums etc.
We finally got tracks where he and the midi were in sync then we
started working with other tracks. HIS cousin came over one night,
played a nice mandolin part to a couple of the tunes he wanted her on
before she moved out of town. THen we went to replacing drums.

when it was all said and done I got another drummer friend of mine
whom I hired for such swessions to play on three of the eight tunes.
HIs buddy was uncomfortable with a click but learned to ignore it and
once he got comfortable played some good drums. wHen it was all said
and done however we used my midi parts on a d4 module because they fit
the arrangements better. All little stuff like going to the ride on
instrumental passages, to kick rim and hats on verses, kick and
regular snare on choruses etc.




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--