(chetatkinsdiet) wrote in message m...
OK, case in point...
Here's a nice machine for someone and it's going to run about the same
as a decent MOTU audio interface.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=15 199
When you put it that way, it doesn't even sound like a hard
decision...."lemme see, motu 2408 sound card or Scully 2" 16 track..."
haha,
m


That's a pretty good case and point M. How often do these types of
deals come along? I mean I live in Massachusetts, shipping a 400 box
is out of the question and not a choice since most of these ads are
pick up only. There are drawbacks too. You have to determine the
condition and apply the necessary doctoring. The motu works right out
of the box and unless you're recording at 192 khz costs less in
storage. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Would it be possible to find a decent deal on a 16 track in Mass? By
decent I mean something in working order but because of tape cost and
upkeep now colects dust. Liken it to giving away an old piano. Are
these circumstances too far fetched? Where would I even begin my
quest save for checking ebay?

thanks,
William

That's a pretty good case and point M. How often do these types of
deals come along? I mean I live in Massachusetts, shipping a 400 box
is out of the question and not a choice since most of these ads are
pick up only. There are drawbacks too. You have to determine the
condition and apply the necessary doctoring. The motu works right out
of the box and unless you're recording at 192 khz costs less in
storage. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Would it be possible to find a decent deal on a 16 track in Mass? By
decent I mean something in working order but because of tape cost and
upkeep now colects dust. Liken it to giving away an old piano. Are
these circumstances too far fetched? Where would I even begin my
quest save for checking ebay?

thanks,
William


Drive up to Vermont and buy Joe Egan's nice MCI machine for $2700.
--
--
John Noll
Retromedia Sound Studios
Red Bank, NJ 07701

Phone: 732-842-3853 Fax: 732-842-5631

http://www.retromedia.net

chetatkinsdiet wrote:

OK, case in point...
Here's a nice machine for someone and it's going to run about the same
as a decent MOTU audio interface.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=15 199
When you put it that way, it doesn't even sound like a hard
decision...."lemme see, motu 2408 sound card or Scully 2" 16 track..."
haha,

I know that beast well..

"Cashiers check, money order, or cash ONLY. Also, this machine is far
TOO HEAVY to even consider shipping, so it must be picked up. Please ask
any questions before bidding."

"Too Heavy" is right!! I moved that puppy myself a few times. Ouch..

chetatkinsdiet wrote:
snip
This is both good and bad. Good that the decks are still being used
and that guys just starting out are getting decent equipment to work
on. Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
and even spice tape.
snip
This is, I believe, the biggest weakness of the whole project studio
movement, it that's what it is.

I'm not slagging project studios... the technology available today makes
it possible for a lot of people to get involved with music production,
and that's a good thing.

But, they are, for the most part, doing it in isolation, without the
benefit of the mentors that most of us dinosaurs had, and without a
realistic appreciation of the history that same said mentors beat into
our headsG! It isn't just the test equipment, or even the skills, it
is an appreciation for why you need those skills and that equipment.

It isn't really all that surprising though... it is an attitude that has
been growing for a long time... the individual does everything, and
doesn't need help from "outsiders"... at least not outsiders that
require more attention than an email or posting.

In the mid-eighties I started a small business providing maintenance
services to studios and broadcasters. This was a logical step, at the
time, from my gig as a broadcast engineer, and at first it worked
nicely. I had a small client list that kept me busy, and we were all happy.

Then it happened. Studios that were charging $15/hour couldn't
understand how I had the nerve to charge $65/hour. The first couple of
prospects were written off as somewhat clueless, but over time the
number of folks who thought they were getting the deal of the century
became a very small subset of the total marketplace. Some of these guys
had significant money invested in their studios, but they didn't
understand that the gear needed to be maintaied. I'd get the emergency
calls, and they'd pay the rate, but all the while I was working they'd
be complaining.

Then along came the ADAT, and the DAW, and all of the sudden it seemed
like maintenance really wasn't necessary. And hey, maybe in a proper
setup it really isn't. I don't know... I got out of that line of work.

I own, and use, analog tape decks. I like them for a lot of reasons...
one might be that they sound cool, I think they do, but an even bigger
reason is that I can maintain them. I could probably learn to fix an
ADAT if I were so inclined... but my JH16 is really pretty simple to
work on, so I stick to that. And I don't think I'm ever going to invest
in a logic analyzer in order to repair a PCI cardG... or even a
symbolic debugger to fix a driver.

The whole landscape has changed pretty drastically!

I'm in agreement though that I think it is cool that people are buying
analog tape decks and trying to learn to use and maintain them. I just
with they understood the value of hooking up with a mentor...

Bill

you beat me to the punch about joe's machine. That's a GREAT one.
I'd think you, being in Boston, or Mass, are in a better spot than me
in Dallas trying to find a decent tape deck for cheap. You can drive
in to NYC if you had to for pickup. I'm sure if you post on here,
you'll find something soon enough.
BTW...agree on all counts on the MOTU vs. tape argument...tape will
cost you more to operate, but the results are hard to compare.
Digital is fine for some things, but I'd prefer tape. Out of ease of
use, etc, I'll continue to use digital, but....if I had Joe's MCI
machine....
later,
m

In article writes:

That's a pretty good case and point M. How often do these types of
deals come along? I mean I live in Massachusetts, shipping a 400 box
is out of the question

Joe Egan is in Vermont and he has a nice MCI for sale at a very
reasonable (but not scrap) price. Go rent a van and take a couple of
friends on a road trip.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

oe Egan is in Vermont and he has a nice MCI for sale at a very
reasonable (but not scrap) price.

Man that's sounds like rock bottom to me.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

Bill Thompson wrote in message ...
chetatkinsdiet wrote:
snip
This is both good and bad. Good that the decks are still being used
and that guys just starting out are getting decent equipment to work
on. Bad that most aren't going to have the proper tools (test
equipment or MRL tapes) or skills to do things like normal maintenance
and even spice tape.
snip
This is, I believe, the biggest weakness of the whole project studio
movement, it that's what it is.

I'm not slagging project studios... the technology available today makes
it possible for a lot of people to get involved with music production,
and that's a good thing.

But, they are, for the most part, doing it in isolation, without the
benefit of the mentors that most of us dinosaurs had, and without a
realistic appreciation of the history that same said mentors beat into
our headsG! It isn't just the test equipment, or even the skills, it
is an appreciation for why you need those skills and that equipment.

It isn't really all that surprising though... it is an attitude that has
been growing for a long time... the individual does everything, and
doesn't need help from "outsiders"... at least not outsiders that
require more attention than an email or posting.

In the mid-eighties I started a small business providing maintenance
services to studios and broadcasters. This was a logical step, at the
time, from my gig as a broadcast engineer, and at first it worked
nicely. I had a small client list that kept me busy, and we were all happy.

Then it happened. Studios that were charging $15/hour couldn't
understand how I had the nerve to charge $65/hour. The first couple of
prospects were written off as somewhat clueless, but over time the
number of folks who thought they were getting the deal of the century
became a very small subset of the total marketplace. Some of these guys
had significant money invested in their studios, but they didn't
understand that the gear needed to be maintaied. I'd get the emergency
calls, and they'd pay the rate, but all the while I was working they'd
be complaining.

Then along came the ADAT, and the DAW, and all of the sudden it seemed
like maintenance really wasn't necessary. And hey, maybe in a proper
setup it really isn't. I don't know... I got out of that line of work.

I own, and use, analog tape decks. I like them for a lot of reasons...
one might be that they sound cool, I think they do, but an even bigger
reason is that I can maintain them. I could probably learn to fix an
ADAT if I were so inclined... but my JH16 is really pretty simple to
work on, so I stick to that. And I don't think I'm ever going to invest
in a logic analyzer in order to repair a PCI cardG... or even a
symbolic debugger to fix a driver.

The whole landscape has changed pretty drastically!

I'm in agreement though that I think it is cool that people are buying
analog tape decks and trying to learn to use and maintain them. I just
with they understood the value of hooking up with a mentor...

Bill

I agree Bill. Not that I grew up in the environment you suggest is
necessary to appreciate the time and effort it takes to maintain
unstable equipment. Guitar has taught me a lot about how things can
drastically change. Whether it be an acoustic guitar played at
different temps or even stomp boxes and how temps would haunt them.

I hate editing digitally. All that cut copy and paste is powerful but
tedious. I hate how digital reacts to overloads too. Am I asking for
trouble wanting a dash recorder? Yes, indeed. I will have to learn
how to tune something other than my guitar. At the same time I'll have
to callibrate my patience if I've become too used to digital
stability.

Do I want to do it all alone? unfortunately yes, that Paul Mccartney
record an album in your living room mentality is in me. It's good to
have other opinions though. My idea now is to track and mix in another
studio.

I saw the ad for the forementioned sony/mci. I'm not sure how to read
into it. I understand the shipping aspects and I'll continue to
compare it to a piano. What I don't have is the knowledge to
understand the servicable and eventually replaced parts.

I suppose the other reason to get into this mad mad world is to keep
the flame going. The music I like was recorded on 4,8, 16, 24 etc
track recorders and released on vinyl and I love the sound. I haven't
checked prices on tape in a while but one thing is for sure it will
force you to make your recordings count unless you're rich.

William

(chetatkinsdiet) wrote in message m...
you beat me to the punch about joe's machine. That's a GREAT one.
I'd think you, being in Boston, or Mass, are in a better spot than me
in Dallas trying to find a decent tape deck for cheap. You can drive
in to NYC if you had to for pickup. I'm sure if you post on here,
you'll find something soon enough.
BTW...agree on all counts on the MOTU vs. tape argument...tape will
cost you more to operate, but the results are hard to compare.
Digital is fine for some things, but I'd prefer tape. Out of ease of
use, etc, I'll continue to use digital, but....if I had Joe's MCI
machine....
later,
m


I agree there are machines being sold, I'm just worried about not
being familiar with them. If one is selling for $2700 could it mean it
needs work? It seems Studers hold the most value. I suppose that's
justified to a degree. Yes you will get no arguement from me about
analog properly done sounds better to my ears. The thing is it is
work.

William

....and while you're in Vermont picking up the Scully, swing on up to
Canada to get your mastering deck. Here it is....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=15 199

Seriously guys....would that be a nice little set up. The Scully with
this 2 track? Why don't I have an extra $4-5K laying around for these
deals....that would cover the van rental and expenses for a 3-4 day
road trip and everything.
later,
m

In article writes:

I agree there are machines being sold, I'm just worried about not
being familiar with them. If one is selling for $2700 could it mean it
needs work?

You need to have a certain degree of trust in the seller. In the case
of the MCI that Joe Egan's selling, I'd have a reasonable degree of
confidence that his description is accurate. After all, he's even had
his picture in Mix or something. g

Small and medium sized working studios often don't have a full time
maintenance person, but have someone local who comes around to service
their machines beyond routine alignment. You can ask the seller who
maintains his recorders, and ask the tech about the history of the
machine you're thinking of buying. Or you can find out who maintains
analog recorders in the area where the machine you're drooling over is
located, and pay him $100 or so to go to the studio that's selling the
recorder and look it over.

About the only real deal breaker (other than that it's been in a
flooded basement for years and it's covered with rust, corrosion, and
green crud) is that the heads aren't in usable condition. 15 or so
years ago, I bought an Ampex MM1100 from a local studio. I knew the
studio, I knew the machine (I'd recorded on it), and I knew the guy
who did maintenance on it. Still, before making the deal, I gave the
studio a check for $1000 as a deposit, they gave me the heads (they
come off with just one screw), and I sent them to JRF Magnetic
Sciences for an autopsy report.

They told me that there was plenty of life left in the heads, but that
they could use refurbishment, which, at the time, I think cost about
$450. That was good enough for me. I had them go ahead with the
refurbishment (knowing that the recorder was costing me $450 more than
I was paying the owner for it), and I got a machine that I used for
ten more years with only a couple of minor repairs.

These things just don't break or give you the upgrade temptation that
a computer does.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1069509357k@trad...
In article writes:

I agree there are machines being sold, I'm just worried about not
being familiar with them. If one is selling for $2700 could it mean it
needs work?

You need to have a certain degree of trust in the seller. In the case
of the MCI that Joe Egan's selling, I'd have a reasonable degree of
confidence that his description is accurate. After all, he's even had
his picture in Mix or something. g

Small and medium sized working studios often don't have a full time
maintenance person, but have someone local who comes around to service
their machines beyond routine alignment. You can ask the seller who
maintains his recorders, and ask the tech about the history of the
machine you're thinking of buying. Or you can find out who maintains
analog recorders in the area where the machine you're drooling over is
located, and pay him $100 or so to go to the studio that's selling the
recorder and look it over.

About the only real deal breaker (other than that it's been in a
flooded basement for years and it's covered with rust, corrosion, and
green crud) is that the heads aren't in usable condition. 15 or so
years ago, I bought an Ampex MM1100 from a local studio. I knew the
studio, I knew the machine (I'd recorded on it), and I knew the guy
who did maintenance on it. Still, before making the deal, I gave the
studio a check for $1000 as a deposit, they gave me the heads (they
come off with just one screw), and I sent them to JRF Magnetic
Sciences for an autopsy report.

They told me that there was plenty of life left in the heads, but that
they could use refurbishment, which, at the time, I think cost about
$450. That was good enough for me. I had them go ahead with the
refurbishment (knowing that the recorder was costing me $450 more than
I was paying the owner for it), and I got a machine that I used for
ten more years with only a couple of minor repairs.

These things just don't break or give you the upgrade temptation that
a computer does.


True Mike,
I'm also not sure if I'm ready for 16/24track analog. Tape is very expensive.
William

In article writes:

I'm also not sure if I'm ready for 16/24track analog. Tape is very expensive.

Actually tape prices haven't risen much if at all in the past 10
years, but it's true - we've become accustomed to media cost being
either negligable or hidden in the price of our computers. Buying used
but usable tape from http://www.tapetape.com can cut your cost
significantly.

One "hidden" benefit to using expensive media and not having a large
project budget is that you become much more selective about what you
keep and what you just re-record. And having only 16 or 24 tracks to
mix can save you a lot of time over having 60 or 80 tracks.

You need to know what the project is going to sound like while you're
working so that you can make every track count. It's good discipline
no matter what media you're using.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1069618303k@trad...
In article writes:

I'm also not sure if I'm ready for 16/24track analog. Tape is very expensive.

Actually tape prices haven't risen much if at all in the past 10
years, but it's true - we've become accustomed to media cost being
either negligable or hidden in the price of our computers. Buying used
but usable tape from http://www.tapetape.com can cut your cost
significantly.

One "hidden" benefit to using expensive media and not having a large
project budget is that you become much more selective about what you
keep and what you just re-record. And having only 16 or 24 tracks to
mix can save you a lot of time over having 60 or 80 tracks.

You need to know what the project is going to sound like while you're
working so that you can make every track count. It's good discipline
no matter what media you're using.

I've certainly considered that aspect of the process Mike. Concerning
tape costs I meant that I've become used to a few DAT back up tapes or
the alike. 16 tracks would be plenty for me. I'm one of those people
who think drums are background instruments not featured performance.
The other factor about these machines is I currently have no means to
mix 16-24 tracks. I suppose I could buy say a mackie or something to
monitor and go to another studio to mix.

William

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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:36:50 GMT
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On 2003-11-23 said:
One "hidden" benefit to using expensive media and not having a large
project budget is that you become much more selective about what you
keep and what you just re-record. And having only 16 or 24 tracks to
mix can save you a lot of time over having 60 or 80 tracks.
You need to know what the project is going to sound like while
you're working so that you can make every track count. It's good
discipline no matter what media you're using.
And because you had to have an idea what you wanted to achieve
sonically you also expeted folks performing to deliver a quality
performance when the tape was rolling. WOw what a concept!!!

THese days we just throw a bunch of tracks down and figure between PT
and that Autotune dreck we can deliver something that maybe gets
within a country mile of a quality performance. NOt quite.




Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--