[Scott Dorsey]

geoff wrote:
On 14/12/2020 1:50 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:

For me it's the total opposite.... since the DAW world allows you to have
as many channels as you want, there's no need to record stems or premixes,
so I just track directly through standalone preamps. Then I use the console
for mixing down.

A console being essentially a bunch of stand-alone preamps in one box,
for this purpose.

Recording to ...?

Usually a DAW, which I use for editing and comping, just like I use the tape
machine for editing and comping. Sometimes a standalone digital recorder
which is more convenient for concert work, but requires files to be moved
off to a daw and back if extensive editing is needed. Sometimes a 1" Ampex.

The main difference being your mix-down, with no editing of any other
sort, in any type of 'box' ?

Editing in the box, mixdown out of the box.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Les Cargill[_5_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 12/12/2020 7:52 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
:

You only get a Focusrite interface if you promise
not to try to fix them. I had broken buttons on mine; I took
the plastic out and use a crochet needle to hit the switches.

Â* Mike Rivers wrote
geez, how far did you have to drop it?

I transported it without a rack, and a mic stand rolled into them.

Sounds like plain bad luck. That'll probably never happen again.

Nope.

I would
have asked Focusrite for some new buttons.

i never use those buttons anyway.

I don't know how people lose
knobs on their Mackie mixers (they're pretty hard to pull off) but I've
easily gotten replacements. Of course that was the "old Mackie" when
Greg was in charge. Today it might be different.

Â* Well... it's $500 and it lasts as long as lt lasts or what, %5,000Â* and
it lasts "forever" - long as you repair it.

. . . . or until it becomes obsolete andÂ* you can't do today's work with
yesteryear's hardware. There are a few holdouts like me, but there's a
lot of 5 year old used gear on eBay or Reverb that still works and most
even has all the knobs - and surprisingly for not as cheap as something
declared no longer useful ought to be.


I got 12 years out of the last device that failed.

Just the space for a real console is kind of daunting.

That's the part of the commitment to having a studio that we just don't
get nowadays. You don't need any rack space for a compressor for every
track, you don't even have very much money. And, dammit, it works as
well as the real thing once you get the hang of it. It does my heart
good when I see a $400 plug-in. But the $40 version of the same function
doesn't need to be expendable because software doesn't break, at least
not in the same way as hardware.

With my experience, I can troubleshoot and repair a console, but I can't
troubleshoot something in a computer-based system that doesn't work
right. When I was an active studio, most studios had the skill available
to keep their gear going.


Valid point - but it all Just Works these days. Once you basically
figure out how to test an interface, the rest is just cabling.


Now those studios that are still in business and have moved to software
have an IT expert on staff or on call. And the solo musician with a
studio gets on a forum and asks for help, which usually involves getting
the latest version of something.

. . .Â* the new digital consoles, for me, are all obsolete because
they don't have enough inputs to have "tape" returns

True that. It's a lot done "in the box" now.

Funny about that. You buy a mixing console, then you use your computer
as the recorder, and instead of sending tracks back to the mixer, you
mix them on the computer. The console becomes a tracking tool, and then
becomes obsolete until the next session.


At least you don't have to "turn the board".

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill[_5_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 12/13/2020 2:34 PM, geoff wrote:
A console being essentially a bunch of stand-alone preamps in one box,
for this purpose.

Well, yes. Not of much value when all you're recording is your voice and
guitar, even if you're doing 40 tracks of overdubs. But if you're
recording a live band and need to make a few headphone mixes, it's much
faster working on a console than digging up 20 mic preamps, patching
them to a recorder, and then doing your mixes in the box.

Recording to ...?

In my case, a 24-track hard disk recorder. With a modern digital
console, the computer, via the console's USB (usually) digital output,
is the recorder. And many digital consoles have a slot for a flash
memory card or USB hard drive so you can stack up WAV files on that, and
play them back into the console for mixing.

The main difference being your mix-down, with no editing of any other
sort, in any type of 'box' ?

My hard disk recorder has a fine editor. What it doesn't have that a DAW
has is signal processing, but the mixing console has that. It's just
like working with a 24-track Studer into a vintage Neve or API console -
except that neither is either.

But that doesn't bother me. And since I've never had a recording project
that used all 24 tracks, what I have suits my needs just fine. The
problem that I have is that modern Mikey-priced digital consoles don't
have dedicated recorder returns to the channels. Generally one hole is
shared with a mic and line input, so playback from the recorder involves
some cable changing.

Furthermore, some don't have direct outputs from the preamps so there
aren't enough outputs to feed all 24 tracks of the recorder - you have
to use bus outputs, of which there are rarely more than 16, and those
are usually what you feed headphone mixes from.

But all of those inputs and outputs are what make a traditional console
expensive. For the largest customer base, it's a digital world, whether
you choose to incorporate a console or not.



There is now a small eternity of Neve 1073 and 1083 modules, many in 500
buss form factor. That's a lot less real estate than a console.

--
Les Cargill

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 12/15/2020 8:42 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
There is now a small eternity of Neve 1073 and 1083 modules, many in 500
buss form factor. That's a lot less real estate than a console.

That's obvious, and there's nothing preventing me from adding some to my
console if I want them. But a rack full of 500 series modules doesn't
give me faders and pans, multiple out buses, monitor control, and an
organized work space.

If you want a console, you'll make room for a console. If you use lack
of space as an excuse not to get a console if you want one, then you
don't one badly enough.

That's all.



--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Les Cargill[_5_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 12/15/2020 8:42 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
There is now a small eternity of Neve 1073 and 1083 modules, many in
500 buss form factor. That's a lot less real estate than a console.

That's obvious, and there's nothing preventing me from adding some to my
console if I want them. But a rack full of 500 series modules doesn't
give me faders and pans, multiple out buses, monitor control, and an
organized work space.

If you want a console, you'll make room for a console. If you use lack
of space as an excuse not to get a console if you want one, then you
don't one badly enough.


Consoles never really worked their way into my work flow. I'd rather use
the space for something else.

That's all.




--
Les Cargill

[Ty Ford[_2_]]

Consoles never really worked their way into my work flow. I'd rather use
the space for something else.

That's all.
Les Cargill

I mostly agree with Mr. Cargill on this. I got into Pro Tools around 2000. Before that I used small mixers on small projects. I think Pro Tools promised 16 tracks (maybe 24) back then. That was more than enough for me.

Over time, Pro Tools brought hardware consoles back to market. My question was, "Why bother?" I'm very happy NOT to have a console. I get around on the screen just fine. OK for live sound maybe, but the Behringer XR 18 is a competent system and it's on screen. I mixed small house concerts on one for two years. I think if you're predisposed to knobs and faders, your inclination is to want a console. I spent a lot of time with hardware consoles. If I worked in high channel live sound where getting to a dedicated control was essential, I'd probably feel differently.

[James Price[_6_]]

On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 9:32:58 AM UTC-6, Ty Ford wrote:
Consoles never really worked their way into my work flow. I'd rather use
the space for something else.

That's all.
Les Cargill

I mostly agree with Mr. Cargill on this. I got into Pro Tools around 2000.. Before that I used small mixers on small projects. I think Pro Tools promised 16 tracks (maybe 24) back then. That was more than enough for me.

Over time, Pro Tools brought hardware consoles back to market. My question was, "Why bother?" I'm very happy NOT to have a console. I get around on the screen just fine. OK for live sound maybe, but the Behringer XR 18 is a competent system and it's on screen. I mixed small house concerts on one for two years. I think if you're predisposed to knobs and faders, your inclination is to want a console. I spent a lot of time with hardware consoles. If I worked in high channel live sound where getting to a dedicated control was essential, I'd probably feel differently.

For automation, I prefer faders.

[geoff]

On 20/12/2020 4:32 am, Ty Ford wrote:
Consoles never really worked their way into my work flow. I'd rather use
the space for something else.

That's all.
Les Cargill

I mostly agree with Mr. Cargill on this. I got into Pro Tools around 2000. Before that I used small mixers on small projects. I think Pro Tools promised 16 tracks (maybe 24) back then. That was more than enough for me.

Over time, Pro Tools brought hardware consoles back to market. My question was, "Why bother?" I'm very happy NOT to have a console. I get around on the screen just fine. OK for live sound maybe, but the Behringer XR 18 is a competent system and it's on screen. I mixed small house concerts on one for two years. I think if you're predisposed to knobs and faders, your inclination is to want a console. I spent a lot of time with hardware consoles. If I worked in high channel live sound where getting to a dedicated control was essential, I'd probably feel differently.


I have a Mackie Control which I could (and have) used in conjunction
with DAW software (Vegas Pro, Acid Pro, Reaper, etc), but nowadays find
that I more often just use envelopes and mouse on timelines to mix down.
Though the MCU can be used to generate those envelopes in real-time.

I wonder what is being used on consoles for analogue (or external
digital) mixdowns - EQ, Level, pan, preset or interactive. Or mainly
just level.

geoff

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 12/19/2020 6:54 PM, geoff wrote:
I have a Mackie Control which I could (and have) used in conjunction
with DAW software (Vegas Pro, Acid Pro, Reaper, etc), but nowadays find
that I more often just use envelopes and mouse on timelines to mix down.
Though the MCU can be used to generate those envelopes in real-time.

I don't have the patience to manipulate volume and pan envelopes with a
mouse. That's why I like using a console. Pans, at least for the work I
do, are static - I can set those and they stay in one place throughout
the song. But with volume, I play with that like playing an instrument.
If something's too quiet, I just ease the fader up until it sounds
right. And if I'm not quick enough, I'll do it again and get it right
the second time. But I don't know by how many dB I've changed the level.
With a volume envelope, you draw what you think is right, then listen to
it to see if it's what you want.

I've thought about using something iike the Mackie MCU but I'm not
enough of a horse trader to buy one,(if you can find them any more), see
if I like it, and if I don't, then sell it. PreSonus makes a couple now
- actually three - one with one fader that they've had out for at least
10 years, one with four faders, and one with eight. They're kind of
expensive, though, but since they don't pass any audio, they're a lot
cheaper than a console.

I wonderÂ* what is being used on consoles for analogue (or external
digital) mixdowns - EQ, Level, pan, preset or interactive. Or mainly
just level.

I'm not sure I understand that question. Do you mean how are console
moves stored and played back through the console?

--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Scott Dorsey]

geoff wrote:

I have a Mackie Control which I could (and have) used in conjunction
with DAW software (Vegas Pro, Acid Pro, Reaper, etc), but nowadays find
that I more often just use envelopes and mouse on timelines to mix down.
Though the MCU can be used to generate those envelopes in real-time.

With a few exceptions, I absolute hate those damn envelopes. Every once in
a while, I will use one for to deal with a specific level problem, but I
would much rather actually just mix.

I wonder what is being used on consoles for analogue (or external
digital) mixdowns - EQ, Level, pan, preset or interactive. Or mainly
just level.

All of the above. Also I do all the dynamics processing on the console
or through outboard gear off the patchbay. The same way I mix from the
tape machine, I mix from the daw. Other effects might be patched in too
if needed.

Sometimes I even mix from the daw through the console to the ATR-100s.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[geoff]

On 20/12/2020 3:23 pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 12/19/2020 6:54 PM, geoff wrote:
I have a Mackie Control which I could (and have) used in conjunction
with DAW software (Vegas Pro, Acid Pro, Reaper, etc), but nowadays
find that I more often just use envelopes and mouse on timelines to
mix down. Though the MCU can be used to generate those envelopes in
real-time.

I don't have the patience to manipulate volume and pan envelopes with a
mouse. That's why I like using a console. Pans, at least for the work I
do, are static - I can set those and they stay in one place throughout
the song. But with volume, I play with that like playing an instrument.
If something's too quiet, I just ease the fader up until it sounds
right. And if I'm not quick enough, I'll do it again and get it right
the second time. But I don't know by how many dB I've changed the level.
With a volume envelope, you draw what you think is right, then listen to
it to see if it's what you want.

With the software I use made a node and drag it up and down like a
fader. or 2 nodes and drag the line between them up and down. Yeah pan
stays constant, with occasional exceptions.

I've thought about using something iike the Mackie MCU but I'm not
enough of a horse trader to buy one,(if you can find them any more), see
if I like it, and if I don't, then sell it. PreSonus makes a couple now
- actually three - one with one fader that they've had out for at least
10 years, one with four faders, and one with eight. They're kind of
expensive, though, but since they don't pass any audio, they're a lot
cheaper than a console.

Behringer do one too - prolly much cheaper.

I wonderÂ* what is being used on consoles for analogue (or external
digital) mixdowns - EQ, Level, pan, preset or interactive. Or mainly
just level.

I'm not sure I understand that question. Do you mean how are console
moves stored and played back through the console?

Stored as preset scenes, manually tweaked up and down for the mix-down,
or stored as flying-faders (and presumably tweaked/recorded per pass too) ?

geoff

[Ty Ford[_2_]]

Pro Tools has this function that allows you to select a section of audio with your cursor and then raise or lower its level. It's very handy for studio mixing. The fader is on the lower left corner of the section you have created. In many cases I can hit play and just by seeing the waveform know that a section needs to be louder or softer. No Envelopes Required....although I do use them sometimes as well. I haven't found that feature in Logic yet.

Ty

[DarseZ Szabo]

There are degrees of niche-ness, an industry can become comparatively
niche without having to go to the extreme of typewriter repair.

Large full serve studios will continue to exist for specific purposes,
like large film sound stages. But they simply don't exist to the degree
they used to, either for clients or as places of employment.



On 2020-12-08 11:43 p.m., James Price wrote:
On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 at 8:18:36 PM UTC-6, Scott Dorsey wrote:
James Price wrote:
Do you think the rise of home studios will eventually offset
demand for professional recording services to the point that
running a commercial studio won't be a viable career path?

That happened some time in the mid-nineties. Did you miss it?

If it were no longer a viable career path, recording studios would
occupy a niche market on par with typewriter repair.