[Peter Wieck[_2_]]

I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is being dissipated in the high range. And, the brute fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives that his speakers are overly bright, we should start there.

I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither is tweaking room acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how we perceive sound at various volumes.

Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer, especially given that one does not normally blast music in an office. At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets to the bass driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker efficiency drops. These are 88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.

Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness" function, start there. If they have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the bass - again that nasty issue of low-volume weak bass is more at-issue than excess treble (at low volume). Failing both these things, is it possible to relocate the speakers, moving them more towards room corners, or closer to the floor, or similar so as to help 'boost' the bass response. However, this might sacrifice sound-stage.

Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more heroic measures.

[Trevor Wilson[_3_]]

On 15/02/2020 5:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is being dissipated in the high range.

**Unlikely. Assuming nothing is broken is the system (as suggested by
Dick), then it is almost certainly a room problem. Room and speaker/room
interaction *IS*, by a very considerable margin, the dominant factor is
perceived audible problems in an audio system.


And, the brute fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot
going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives that his speakers
are overly bright, we should start there.

**Well, again: Assuming there is nothing broken in the speaker (which,
obviously, should be checked first, to ensure correct functioning), then
the room is the next item to check.



I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither is tweaking room acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how we perceive sound at various volumes.

**And trust me on this: The room is, by a very considerable margin, the
dominant factor in audible problems with systems.


Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer, especially given that one does not normally blast music in an office. At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets to the bass driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker efficiency drops. These are 88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.

**I am making several assumptions in my diagnosis:

1) That the speakers have been professionally and correctly designed and
constructed. Either of these things may not be true. I don't know. Sony
is a proper brand, so I assume design and construction has been done to
decent standards.

2) That the amplifier is not broken.

Therefore, the room is the problem. Room treatments can be challenging
to apply, but they can be very, VERY cost-effective.

The room will be the problem. Too many hard surfaces is most likely.



Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness" function, start there.

**No. Tone controls (and loudness controls) are very much a hit and miss
treatment. Without proper measurements and controls, tone controls are
pretty much a waste of time.


If they have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the bass - again that nasty
issue of low-volume weak bass is more at-issue than excess treble (at
low volume). Failing both these things, is it possible to relocate the
speakers, moving them more towards room corners, or closer to the floor,
or similar so as to help 'boost' the bass response. However, this might
sacrifice sound-stage.

**The speakers should be placed in a location where they have been
designed for. Any other location will deliver unpredictable results.


Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more heroic measures.


**Room treatments are hardly heroic measures. Room treatments are
FUNDAMENTAL to the proper operation of a sound reproduction system. In
fact, I would posit that the STARTING point of a sound reproduction
system is the room. Everything else is secondary. And, when I say 'room
treatments' I do include speakers and speaker location as part of the
process. However, since the speakers are already chosen and, presumably,
located appropriately, then room treatments (damping materials) is the
next approach to take.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, February 16, 2020 at 1:29:45 PM UTC-5, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 15/02/2020 5:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being
dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is being dissipated in the high range.

**Unlikely. Assuming nothing is broken is the system (as suggested by
Dick), then it is almost certainly a room problem.

AAT the kind of frequencies the original poster is talking
about, it is almost certinaly NOT a room problem. It would
be about the LAST thing I would go looking after.

Room and speaker/room

interaction *IS*, by a very considerable margin, the dominant factor is
perceived audible problems in an audio system.

Not at the kinds of high frequency (10 kHz) the poster is taking
about, no.

In all the speakers I have measured in rooms, and that number is
not inconsiderable, the higher frequencies, and especially that
region around and above 10 kHz, shows the closest approach to the
anechoice response of the loudspeaker.

Why? For it to be a room problem, you have to have a LOT of paths
(and by "a lot", I mean the preponderance of all possible paths)
whose length is proximal to whiole number multiples of eithe 1/4
or 1/2 a wavelenngth to within a high degree of precision (maybe
+- a few degrees total phase error), and we're talking wavelength
on the order of an inch or less. Further, all these paths must have
a very low total absorption along the paths.


And, the brute fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot
going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives that his speakers
are overly bright, we should start there.

I would suggest this will be a fruitless pursuit.

Now, if it was just a LITTLE lower in frequency, like a factor
a hundred times lower, you might have a case.

[Trevor Wilson[_3_]]

On 18/02/2020 9:27 am, wrote:
On Sunday, February 16, 2020 at 1:29:45 PM UTC-5, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 15/02/2020 5:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being
dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is being dissipated in the high range.

**Unlikely. Assuming nothing is broken is the system (as suggested by
Dick), then it is almost certainly a room problem.

AAT the kind of frequencies the original poster is talking
about, it is almost certinaly NOT a room problem. It would
be about the LAST thing I would go looking after.

**I've read the OP's words and there is ZERO reference to specific
frequencies. The OP could be referring to frequencies around 3kHz for
all any of us know. I see no measurements, nor anything else that could
provide a starting point for investigations.



Room and speaker/room

interaction *IS*, by a very considerable margin, the dominant factor is
perceived audible problems in an audio system.

Not at the kinds of high frequency (10 kHz) the poster is taking
about, no.

**I don't see how you can infer that 10kHz is the problem. 10kHz is
NEVER, IME, a problem for anyone other than children.


In all the speakers I have measured in rooms, and that number is
not inconsiderable, the higher frequencies, and especially that
region around and above 10 kHz, shows the closest approach to the
anechoice response of the loudspeaker.

**Sure, but you are assuming the OP knows that 10kHz is the problem. I
posit that the likely problem frequencies are lower. MUCH lower.



Why? For it to be a room problem, you have to have a LOT of paths
(and by "a lot", I mean the preponderance of all possible paths)
whose length is proximal to whiole number multiples of eithe 1/4
or 1/2 a wavelenngth to within a high degree of precision (maybe
+- a few degrees total phase error), and we're talking wavelength
on the order of an inch or less. Further, all these paths must have
a very low total absorption along the paths.


And, the brute fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot
going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives that his speakers
are overly bright, we should start there.

I would suggest this will be a fruitless pursuit.

Now, if it was just a LITTLE lower in frequency, like a factor
a hundred times lower, you might have a case.

**I will bet you that the problem can be solved using appropriate (and
inexpensive) room treatments. It always is. Room effects dominate ANY
system. And, frankly, I don't know why you are arguing this point with
me. You know I am correct. What neither of us know, is the ACTUAL
frequencies that are causing discomfort. I betcha it is somewhere around
3kHz. After we see some measurements, then we will know for sure.



--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[~misfit~[_3_]]

On 15/02/2020 7:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is being dissipated in the high range. And, the brute fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives that his speakers are overly bright, we should start there.

A lot of the material I listen to is 'full range' and does have a reasonable amount of high
frequency content.

(I was listening to the Lindsey Buckingham Christine McVie album the other day and there were
'tinkling' noises in one track that I could hear but not clearly. It made me wonder why two 70 y/o
plus musicians were using sounds that they likely couldn't hear!)

I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither is tweaking room acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how we perceive sound at various volumes.

Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer, especially given that one does not normally blast music in an office. At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets to the bass driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker efficiency drops. These are 88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.

I do generally listen to music with a wide dynamic range so the volume is set higher than it would
be if I were listening to compressed pop or rock music. I sometimes listen to music while computer
gaming and it can be louder than you'd expect in an 'office'.

I use the term 'office' loosely to mean the area of the house where my computer and desk are. It's
a habit I picked up when I owned a small business and did my stocktaking and accounts etc. from a
home office.

Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness" function, start there. If they have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the bass - again that nasty issue of low-volume weak bass is more at-issue than excess treble (at low volume). Failing both these things, is it possible to relocate the speakers, moving them more towards room corners, or closer to the floor, or similar so as to help 'boost' the bass response. However, this might sacrifice sound-stage.

The bass is good. I'm using a small kitset pre-amp with no tone controls which goes through a
crossover in a second-hand kitset subwoofer amplifier. (Playmaster 300W Subwoofer Amplifier.) The
crossover takes away all of signal below a certain point, sums it and feeds it to the 300W MOSFET
amp. It has three selectable crossover points and a level control.

I've got it set to the lowest of the crossover points (which are 70, 90 and 120Hz) as I want to
preserve as much directional information from low frequencies as possible. The Sony SS-K30EDs seem
to handle frequencies down to 70Hz just fine with minimal drop-off.

The subwoofer is a very inefficient thing that I built braced 25mm MDF a couple of decades ago.
It's a 10" driver in a ~40l internally-braced sealed box and as such is very 'musical' when
compared to ported subwoofers that I've heard. It's response tails off below about 26Hz but I'm
fine with that.

Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more heroic measures.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

[Trevor Wilson[_3_]]

On 18/02/2020 3:28 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 15/02/2020 7:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being
dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy is
being dissipated in the high range. And, the brute fact of the matter
is that there is not a whole lot going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if
the OP perceives that his speakers are overly bright, we should start
there.

A lot of the material I listen to is 'full range' and does have a
reasonable amount of high frequency content.

(I was listening to the Lindsey Buckingham Christine McVie album the
other day and there were 'tinkling' noises in one track that I could
hear but not clearly. It made me wonder why two 70 y/o plus musicians
were using sounds that they likely couldn't hear!)

**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz. You need
to employ some room treatments to deal with the problem.


I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither
is tweaking room acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how
we perceive sound at various volumes.

Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer,
especially given that one does not normally blast music in an office.
At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets to the bass
driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker efficiency
drops. These are 88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.

I do generally listen to music with a wide dynamic range so the volume
is set higher than it would be if I were listening to compressed pop or
rock music. I sometimes listen to music while computer gaming and it can
be louder than you'd expect in an 'office'.

**Is the amplifier being allowed to enter Voltage limiting (aka:
Clipping)? If so, then all bets are off. You may need an amplifier with
more output Voltage capability.


I use the term 'office' loosely to mean the area of the house where my
computer and desk are. It's a habit I picked up when I owned a small
business and did my stocktaking and accounts etc. from a home office.

Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness"
function, start there. If they have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the
bass - again that nasty issue of low-volume weak bass is more at-issue
than excess treble (at low volume). Failing both these things, is it
possible to relocate the speakers, moving them more towards room
corners, or closer to the floor, or similar so as to help 'boost' the
bass response. However, this might sacrifice sound-stage.

The bass is good. I'm using a small kitset pre-amp with no tone controls
which goes through a crossover in a second-hand kitset subwoofer
amplifier. (Playmaster 300W Subwoofer Amplifier.) The crossover takes
away all of signal below a certain point, sums it and feeds it to the
300W MOSFET amp. It has three selectable crossover points and a level
control.

**You're an Aussie then?


I've got it set to the lowest of the crossover points (which are 70, 90
and 120Hz) as I want to preserve as much directional information from
low frequencies as possible. The Sony SS-K30EDs seem to handle
frequencies down to 70Hz just fine with minimal drop-off.

The subwoofer is a very inefficient thing that I built braced 25mm MDF a
couple of decades ago. It's a 10" driver in a ~40l internally-braced
sealed box and as such is very 'musical' when compared to ported
subwoofers that I've heard. It's response tails off below about 26Hz but
I'm fine with that.

Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more
heroic measures.

Cheers,


**Room damping treatments and ensuring your amp is not clipping should
go a long way to solving your problems. Give me a call. I'm in the book.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Trevor Wilson[_3_]]

On 19/02/2020 6:41 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:


**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz.

**Should read: "....somewhere around 3 ~ 5kHz."

Very few instruments possess fundamentals that reach 5kHz. A very tiny
number posses harmonics of significant levels that exceed 10kHz.

Turn the volume down and see if the sound is still annoying. I suspect
you are clipping your amplifier. Clipping can generate large amounts of
high frequency harmonic content. And, just to shut down any myths you
may have heard: Valve amplifiers WILL clip and WILL generate excessive
high frequency harmonics if over-driven.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[~misfit~[_3_]]

On 19/02/2020 11:14 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 19/02/2020 6:41 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:


**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz.

**Should read: "....somewhere around 3 ~ 5kHz."

It seems to be higher.

FWIW I just did this on-line frequency hearing test:
http://onlinetonegenerator.com/hearingtest.html
and through my monitor-mounted Dell soundbar (with 25mm drivers) I could hear to just over 12.5kHz
but through the stereo in question could only hear to about 11.5kHz. That's quite a bit lower than
the last time I used a similar tool a few years back. Maybe those years when I spent hours several
nights a week at a mixing desk at live (loud) gigs in my 20s are coming back to bite me?

So now I'm a bit baffled. The issue I have is due to sounds at the highest frequencies that I can
hear and that seems to be ~11kHz with this system in the current configuration. Maybe they have a
peak about there or are flatter than the other speakers I've tried...

Very few instruments possess fundamentals that reach 5kHz. A very tiny number posses harmonics of
significant levels that exceed 10kHz.

Turn the volume down and see if the sound is still annoying. I suspect you are clipping your
amplifier. Clipping can generate large amounts of high frequency harmonic content. And, just to
shut down any myths you may have heard: Valve amplifiers WILL clip and WILL generate excessive high
frequency harmonics if over-driven.

It's not clipping. The Dynaco ST120 I have hooked up at the moment is a solid-state amp and I no
longer own any valve amps.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

[Trevor Wilson[_3_]]

On 19/02/2020 1:02 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 19/02/2020 11:14 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 19/02/2020 6:41 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:


**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz.

**Should read: "....somewhere around 3 ~ 5kHz."

It seems to be higher.

**Until it has been measured, then we're both guessing. Few instruments
go as high as 5kHz. There is almost nothing beyond 10kHz in any music.


FWIW I just did this on-line frequency hearing test:
http://onlinetonegenerator.com/hearingtest.html
and through my monitor-mounted Dell soundbar (with 25mm drivers) I could
hear to just over 12.5kHz but through the stereo in question could only
hear to about 11.5kHz. That's quite a bit lower than the last time I
used a similar tool a few years back. Maybe those years when I spent
hours several nights a week at a mixing desk at live (loud) gigs in my
20s are coming back to bite me?

So now I'm a bit baffled. The issue I have is due to sounds at the
highest frequencies that I can hear and that seems to be ~11kHz with
this system in the current configuration. Maybe they have a peak about
there or are flatter than the other speakers I've tried...

**Until you perform some measurements, you're guessing. You could try to
acquire a (preferably digital) parametric equaliser and perform some
measurements.

I still betcha room treatments will solve your problems. IME (which is
substantial), room treatments solve most mid-HF problems, PROVIDED there
is nothing inherently wrong with the equipment, or the amp is not being
clipped.


Very few instruments possess fundamentals that reach 5kHz. A very tiny
number posses harmonics of significant levels that exceed 10kHz.

Turn the volume down and see if the sound is still annoying. I suspect
you are clipping your amplifier. Clipping can generate large amounts
of high frequency harmonic content. And, just to shut down any myths
you may have heard: Valve amplifiers WILL clip and WILL generate
excessive high frequency harmonics if over-driven.

It's not clipping. The Dynaco ST120 I have hooked up at the moment is a
solid-state amp and I no longer own any valve amps.

**You've checked with a 'scope to ensure no clipping then? Or are you
guessing again? It might worth looking at the waveform on a 'scope to
see if there are no parasitics present.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[~misfit~[_3_]]

On 20/02/2020 10:44 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 19/02/2020 1:02 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 19/02/2020 11:14 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 19/02/2020 6:41 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:


**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz.

**Should read: "....somewhere around 3 ~ 5kHz."

It seems to be higher.

**Until it has been measured, then we're both guessing. Few instruments go as high as 5kHz. There
is almost nothing beyond 10kHz in any music.


FWIW I just did this on-line frequency hearing test:
http://onlinetonegenerator.com/hearingtest.html
and through my monitor-mounted Dell soundbar (with 25mm drivers) I could hear to just over
12.5kHz but through the stereo in question could only hear to about 11.5kHz. That's quite a bit
lower than the last time I used a similar tool a few years back. Maybe those years when I spent
hours several nights a week at a mixing desk at live (loud) gigs in my 20s are coming back to
bite me?

So now I'm a bit baffled. The issue I have is due to sounds at the highest frequencies that I can
hear and that seems to be ~11kHz with this system in the current configuration. Maybe they have a
peak about there or are flatter than the other speakers I've tried...

**Until you perform some measurements, you're guessing. You could try to acquire a (preferably
digital) parametric equaliser and perform some measurements.

I still betcha room treatments will solve your problems. IME (which is substantial), room
treatments solve most mid-HF problems, PROVIDED there is nothing inherently wrong with the
equipment, or the amp is not being clipped.


Very few instruments possess fundamentals that reach 5kHz. A very tiny number posses harmonics
of significant levels that exceed 10kHz.

Turn the volume down and see if the sound is still annoying. I suspect you are clipping your
amplifier. Clipping can generate large amounts of high frequency harmonic content. And, just to
shut down any myths you may have heard: Valve amplifiers WILL clip and WILL generate excessive
high frequency harmonics if over-driven.

It's not clipping. The Dynaco ST120 I have hooked up at the moment is a solid-state amp and I no
longer own any valve amps.

**You've checked with a 'scope to ensure no clipping then? Or are you guessing again? It might
worth looking at the waveform on a 'scope to see if there are no parasitics present.

Of course I'm guessing. I know this is rec.audio.high-end but I don't have (or have access to) a
parametric equaliser or an o'scope. When I say I'm not listening at low 'office level' volumes I
also don't mean ear-bleeding party volumes. Maybe somewhere in the 'half volume' range on a 60 - 80
wpc amp... I've currently got a Marantz Stereo Reciever SR4023 hooked up set to 'flat' (it has a
pre/power loop for the subwoofer amp) and the issue is the same - but the amp belongs elsewhere.

However I have used these speakers with a few different amplifiers, (from 25 watts /channel class A
up to 160 w/c RMS) and at different volumes and in different locations and the issue I perceive
persists.

I realise that without measuring we're all making educated guesses. Really I just wanted to know
what to add to the speaker crossovers / tweeter wires to attenuate frequencies above say 10kHz by
maybe 3db (and not attenuate the crucial frequencies where female vocals and the upper reaches of
electric guitar solos and harmonics reside).
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

[~misfit~[_3_]]

On 19/02/2020 8:41 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 18/02/2020 3:28 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 15/02/2020 7:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being dissipated by the speakers in the
high range, then too much energy is being dissipated in the high range. And, the brute fact of
the matter is that there is not a whole lot going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP perceives
that his speakers are overly bright, we should start there.

A lot of the material I listen to is 'full range' and does have a reasonable amount of high
frequency content.

(I was listening to the Lindsey Buckingham Christine McVie album the other day and there were
'tinkling' noises in one track that I could hear but not clearly. It made me wonder why two 70
y/o plus musicians were using sounds that they likely couldn't hear!)

**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz. You need to employ some room
treatments to deal with the problem.

They sure don't seem to be and I don't have an analyser.

I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither is tweaking room
acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how we perceive sound at various volumes.

Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer, especially given that one
does not normally blast music in an office. At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets
to the bass driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker efficiency drops. These are
88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.

I do generally listen to music with a wide dynamic range so the volume is set higher than it
would be if I were listening to compressed pop or rock music. I sometimes listen to music while
computer gaming and it can be louder than you'd expect in an 'office'.

**Is the amplifier being allowed to enter Voltage limiting (aka: Clipping)? If so, then all bets
are off. You may need an amplifier with more output Voltage capability.

It's not clipping. I've tried different power amps and the problem is with the speakers.

I use the term 'office' loosely to mean the area of the house where my computer and desk are.
It's a habit I picked up when I owned a small business and did my stocktaking and accounts etc.
from a home office.

Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness" function, start there. If they
have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the bass - again that nasty issue of low-volume weak bass is
more at-issue than excess treble (at low volume). Failing both these things, is it possible to
relocate the speakers, moving them more towards room corners, or closer to the floor, or similar
so as to help 'boost' the bass response. However, this might sacrifice sound-stage.

The bass is good. I'm using a small kitset pre-amp with no tone controls which goes through a
crossover in a second-hand kitset subwoofer amplifier. (Playmaster 300W Subwoofer Amplifier.) The
crossover takes away all of signal below a certain point, sums it and feeds it to the 300W MOSFET
amp. It has three selectable crossover points and a level control.

**You're an Aussie then?

I live in South Auckland.

I've got it set to the lowest of the crossover points (which are 70, 90 and 120Hz) as I want to
preserve as much directional information from low frequencies as possible. The Sony SS-K30EDs
seem to handle frequencies down to 70Hz just fine with minimal drop-off.

The subwoofer is a very inefficient thing that I built braced 25mm MDF a couple of decades ago.
It's a 10" driver in a ~40l internally-braced sealed box and as such is very 'musical' when
compared to ported subwoofers that I've heard. It's response tails off below about 26Hz but I'm
fine with that.

Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more heroic measures.


**Room damping treatments and ensuring your amp is not clipping should go a long way to solving
your problems. Give me a call. I'm in the book.

Thanks for the input Trevor. I live in rental accommodation and am 'under the sword' - the property
could be sold to developers at any time and I'll need to find somewhere else to live. (It's been
that way since the landlord warned me a year ago and there's a housing shortage here.) So I'm not
that keen on spending too much effort on room treatments. More pressing is selling the
surplus-to-requirements speakers and old Thinkpads etc. that are filling the back bedroom!

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

[Trevor Wilson[_3_]]

On 19/02/2020 12:28 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 19/02/2020 8:41 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 18/02/2020 3:28 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 15/02/2020 7:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being
dissipated by the speakers in the high range, then too much energy
is being dissipated in the high range. And, the brute fact of the
matter is that there is not a whole lot going on above 15 kHz
anyway. So if the OP perceives that his speakers are overly bright,
we should start there.

A lot of the material I listen to is 'full range' and does have a
reasonable amount of high frequency content.

(I was listening to the Lindsey Buckingham Christine McVie album the
other day and there were 'tinkling' noises in one track that I could
hear but not clearly. It made me wonder why two 70 y/o plus musicians
were using sounds that they likely couldn't hear!)

**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz. You need
to employ some room treatments to deal with the problem.

They sure don't seem to be and I don't have an analyser.

**They will, almost certainly, be below 5kHz.


I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But
neither is tweaking room acoustics. We need to work with the Human
Ear and how we perceive sound at various volumes.

Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer,
especially given that one does not normally blast music in an
office. At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets to the
bass driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker
efficiency drops. These are 88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not
great either.

I do generally listen to music with a wide dynamic range so the
volume is set higher than it would be if I were listening to
compressed pop or rock music. I sometimes listen to music while
computer gaming and it can be louder than you'd expect in an 'office'.

**Is the amplifier being allowed to enter Voltage limiting (aka:
Clipping)? If so, then all bets are off. You may need an amplifier
with more output Voltage capability.

It's not clipping.

**How do you know?


I've tried different power amps and the problem is
with the speakers.

**Again: How do you know? How do you know that the room is not the problem?


I use the term 'office' loosely to mean the area of the house where
my computer and desk are. It's a habit I picked up when I owned a
small business and did my stocktaking and accounts etc. from a home
office.

Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness"
function, start there. If they have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the
bass - again that nasty issue of low-volume weak bass is more
at-issue than excess treble (at low volume). Failing both these
things, is it possible to relocate the speakers, moving them more
towards room corners, or closer to the floor, or similar so as to
help 'boost' the bass response. However, this might sacrifice
sound-stage.

The bass is good. I'm using a small kitset pre-amp with no tone
controls which goes through a crossover in a second-hand kitset
subwoofer amplifier. (Playmaster 300W Subwoofer Amplifier.) The
crossover takes away all of signal below a certain point, sums it and
feeds it to the 300W MOSFET amp. It has three selectable crossover
points and a level control.

**You're an Aussie then?

I live in South Auckland.

**Ah. We Aussies always forget about our Eastern state. :-)


I've got it set to the lowest of the crossover points (which are 70,
90 and 120Hz) as I want to preserve as much directional information
from low frequencies as possible. The Sony SS-K30EDs seem to handle
frequencies down to 70Hz just fine with minimal drop-off.

The subwoofer is a very inefficient thing that I built braced 25mm
MDF a couple of decades ago. It's a 10" driver in a ~40l
internally-braced sealed box and as such is very 'musical' when
compared to ported subwoofers that I've heard. It's response tails
off below about 26Hz but I'm fine with that.

Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more
heroic measures.


**Room damping treatments and ensuring your amp is not clipping should
go a long way to solving your problems. Give me a call. I'm in the book.

Thanks for the input Trevor. I live in rental accommodation and am
'under the sword' - the property could be sold to developers at any time
and I'll need to find somewhere else to live. (It's been that way since
the landlord warned me a year ago and there's a housing shortage here.)
So I'm not that keen on spending too much effort on room treatments.
More pressing is selling the surplus-to-requirements speakers and old
Thinkpads etc. that are filling the back bedroom!


**Room treatments can be VERY, VERY cheap and easy to apply
(temporarily). Old rugs, mattresses, etc work just fine. In fact, back
in the 1990s, I took part in a couple of hi fi shows in Las Vegas. At
one show, some other Aussies (Krix Loudspeakers) had their room near to
mine. Their room possessed extremely poor acoustics and the guys set
about to rectify the situation as quickly and inexpensively as possible.
They used some old cardboard boxes, duct tape, a Doona„¢ cover and some
Dacron„¢. They constructed a false 'wall' from the cardboard and duct
tape, measuring around 3.5 Metres X 2.5 Metres X 400mm. They filled it
with the Dacron„¢ and covered the whole thing with the Doona„¢ cover (for
appropriate cosmetic effect). Problem solved at the cost of some Dacron„¢
and a roll of duct tape.

I would encourage you to try room treatments, before you spend too much
time, money and effort on other things.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[~misfit~[_3_]]

On 20/02/2020 10:57 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 19/02/2020 12:28 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 19/02/2020 8:41 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 18/02/2020 3:28 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 15/02/2020 7:32 am, Peter Wieck wrote:
I think you are missing the point. If too much energy is being dissipated by the speakers in
the high range, then too much energy is being dissipated in the high range. And, the brute
fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot going on above 15 kHz anyway. So if the OP
perceives that his speakers are overly bright, we should start there.

A lot of the material I listen to is 'full range' and does have a reasonable amount of high
frequency content.

(I was listening to the Lindsey Buckingham Christine McVie album the other day and there were
'tinkling' noises in one track that I could hear but not clearly. It made me wonder why two 70
y/o plus musicians were using sounds that they likely couldn't hear!)

**Those "tinkling noises" you hear are somewhere around 3kHz. You need to employ some room
treatments to deal with the problem.

They sure don't seem to be and I don't have an analyser.

**They will, almost certainly, be below 5kHz.

I might have to look for a phone ap. That said my low-end Samsung phone is very low on storage
space, I've had to delete apps recently...

I agree that attenuating the high range is not the answer. But neither is tweaking room
acoustics. We need to work with the Human Ear and how we perceive sound at various volumes.

Which is why balancing the speaker output does seem to be an answer, especially given that one
does not normally blast music in an office. At low volumes, in general, not enough energy gets
to the bass driver(s) to balance the treble, especially as speaker efficiency drops. These are
88 dB speakers, not horrible, but not great either.

I do generally listen to music with a wide dynamic range so the volume is set higher than it
would be if I were listening to compressed pop or rock music. I sometimes listen to music while
computer gaming and it can be louder than you'd expect in an 'office'.

**Is the amplifier being allowed to enter Voltage limiting (aka: Clipping)? If so, then all bets
are off. You may need an amplifier with more output Voltage capability.

It's not clipping.

**How do you know?

I don't KNOW per se but I've used different amps and I don't listen at volumes above about 50%.

Â*I've tried different power amps and the problem is
with the speakers.

**Again: How do you know? How do you know that the room is not the problem?

As I mentioned elsewhere I've tried these speakers in different rooms including my very 'soft'
bedroom and the problem follows them.

I use the term 'office' loosely to mean the area of the house where my computer and desk are.
It's a habit I picked up when I owned a small business and did my stocktaking and accounts etc.
from a home office.

Eschew needless complexity. If the electronics have a "Loudness" function, start there. If
they have tone-controls try *BOOSTING* the bass - again that nasty issue of low-volume weak
bass is more at-issue than excess treble (at low volume). Failing both these things, is it
possible to relocate the speakers, moving them more towards room corners, or closer to the
floor, or similar so as to help 'boost' the bass response. However, this might sacrifice
sound-stage.

The bass is good. I'm using a small kitset pre-amp with no tone controls which goes through a
crossover in a second-hand kitset subwoofer amplifier. (Playmaster 300W Subwoofer Amplifier.)
The crossover takes away all of signal below a certain point, sums it and feeds it to the 300W
MOSFET amp. It has three selectable crossover points and a level control.

**You're an Aussie then?

I live in South Auckland.

**Ah. We Aussies always forget about our Eastern state. :-)

Heh!

I've got it set to the lowest of the crossover points (which are 70, 90 and 120Hz) as I want to
preserve as much directional information from low frequencies as possible. The Sony SS-K30EDs
seem to handle frequencies down to 70Hz just fine with minimal drop-off.

The subwoofer is a very inefficient thing that I built braced 25mm MDF a couple of decades ago.
It's a 10" driver in a ~40l internally-braced sealed box and as such is very 'musical' when
compared to ported subwoofers that I've heard. It's response tails off below about 26Hz but I'm
fine with that.

Only after the obvious fixes have failed should we push towards more heroic measures.


**Room damping treatments and ensuring your amp is not clipping should go a long way to solving
your problems. Give me a call. I'm in the book.

Thanks for the input Trevor. I live in rental accommodation and am 'under the sword' - the
property could be sold to developers at any time and I'll need to find somewhere else to live.
(It's been that way since the landlord warned me a year ago and there's a housing shortage here.)
So I'm not that keen on spending too much effort on room treatments. More pressing is selling the
surplus-to-requirements speakers and old Thinkpads etc. that are filling the back bedroom!


**Room treatments can be VERY, VERY cheap and easy to apply (temporarily). Old rugs, mattresses,
etc work just fine. In fact, back in the 1990s, I took part in a couple of hi fi shows in Las
Vegas. At one show, some other Aussies (Krix Loudspeakers) had their room near to mine. Their room
possessed extremely poor acoustics and the guys set about to rectify the situation as quickly and
inexpensively as possible. They used some old cardboard boxes, duct tape, a Doona„¢ cover and some
Dacron„¢. They constructed a false 'wall' from the cardboard and duct tape, measuring around 3.5
Metres X 2.5 Metres X 400mm. They filled it with the Dacron„¢ and covered the whole thing with the
Doona„¢ cover (for appropriate cosmetic effect). Problem solved at the cost of some Dacron„¢ and a
roll of duct tape.

I would encourage you to try room treatments, before you spend too much time, money and effort on
other things.

Cheers. I fondly remember the 'listening room' in a flat I was in a few decades back. All of the
walls above chair-height were covered in op-shop blankets / duvets then covered in egg trays
(mainly to disguise the mismatched blankets). We also had double-layer egg trays on the ceiling.

My flatmate had a good turntable, (as well as tone arm, cart and stylus) that was made from a solid
block of marble, all really expensive by our standards. I forget the make or model. As long as the
source is good I've always been about the speakers and to a lesser extent amplification. Then (and
especially these days) I believe the biggest gains in a system can usually be made with the choice,
design and placement of speakers.

Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

[Peter Wieck[_2_]]

Snark Warning!

__________________________________________________ ___________________
This from last year in another thread:

As it happens, and apart from (very) exceptional room acoustics, your dilemma was addressed quite specifically by no less than Acoustic Research and Edgar Villchur back in the dim and distant 1960s. And, much of the ARs designs historically were based on solving placement issues.

All of the above based on minimum 8"/200 mm woofers and against the wall in "conventional" box-type front-firing speakers. Smaller woofers are hopeless in delivering clean bass unless in many multiples - which brings on more problems than it solves.

As follows:

Starting on the LONG wall of the listening room:

a) Place speaker A at the 1/4 point from one corner. Makes no difference which. The woofer should be at least one (1) woofer diameter off the floor - making the center-line at 1.5 diameters. The tweets should be IN or UP.
b) Place speaker B at the 1/3 point from the opposite corner.
c) While playing a full-range, well-recorded, familiar signal at normal/slightly lower volume, tweak Speaker B to achieve the best sound-stage. 95% of the time, B will move closer to A. Starting out, your sound-stage will be ~2/3 as wide as the distance between the speakers and about as deep as half the distance between them.
d) Once you have achieved a comfortable sound-stage, tweak either/both speaker heights to achieve the best possible signal balance. If you have wide-dispersion (as in dome) tweets (and, ideally mid-ranges) *YOUR* ear level will not be critical.

And, this should do it - excepting very strange rooms or strangely shaped rooms.

Notes:

1. At no time should the speakers be symmetrical on a given wall _UNLESS_ there is something between them (such as a fireplace) that renders their relationship asymmetrical within the room. Symmetrical placement invites standing waves, cancellation waves and other forms of interference. For the same reason, no speaker should be placed at a mind-point between two walls.
2. Exactly the same exercise obtains on the short wall, except that bass will be enhanced, sometimes too much.

3. Exactly the same exercise obtains from the ceiling rather than the floor - but the speakers should be bass-up if vertical in that exercise. No change if on their sides - tweets in.

4. With good speakers (clean response curve) final placement will very much depend on the listener and his/her preferences. And, therefore why the exercise should be with all settings "FLAT" and with familiar and full-range signal. Changes from a good start will not require changes in speaker location(s).

5 And to repeat: NOT SYMMETRICAL!

Once you have found a configuration that pleases you - give it a week. Mark the locations in some way, then start over but with a different signal. If you wind up at the same points, you are done. And, of course, inches do make a difference - and why you should give it time until you are very happy with the result.

Side note: AR added a center-channel to its flagship receiver as back when stereo was "new", recording engineers often exaggerated separation as an "Oh, WOW!" factor. And David Hafler designed the Hafler Circuit to address that issue, which evolved into the Poor Man's Quadraphonic system. Be careful that the signal you use is well engineered *and* well recorded.
__________________________________________________ ________________

This pretty much summarizes my approach to speaker placement. There are overly bright rooms, there are overly dull rooms. But in the typical household, they are the rare exception. For the most part, speaker placement is bunged by practical needs such as 'the speakers can't go there because...', there by requiring compromises, not always pleasant. And in the case of Shaun's speaker/amp/sub-woofer system, I expect that electronic equalization will be the most practical solution, and also the most transferable of the options should he have to move. I admit to keeping an equalizer - but it hardly gets used as I am also blessed with an understanding wife who allows me to put the speakers where they 'want' to be in both listening areas. That one pair are Maggies makes her even more remarkable.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA