[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 07:30:27 -0800 (PST), Ty Ford
wrote:

On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 3:33:08 PM UTC-5, nickbatz wrote:
My first thought was that the front- and rear-firing woofers aren't in phase, but nope.

Probably not keepers, but I'm only 90% sure.

Shouldn't the front and rear be out of phase?

No. They both need to be pressurizing the room on the out stroke.

d

[nickbatz]

Well, they'd have to screw up pretty badly to have a factory red mark on woofer's positive terminal - where the red wire goes.

[Trevor]

On 24/01/2020 5:30 am, nickbatz wrote:
Pretty normal when the T/S parameters aren't suitable for a small box.
You often get higher efficiency than a smaller driver, but not
necessarily lower bass.

I know everything.

That is, except for what T/S paramaters are.


Theile/Small parameters, ie Fs, Vas, Qts. depend on the driver design
and are used to calculate suitable box parameters, and the resulting
bass response.

[Scott Dorsey]

nickbatz wrote:
Pretty normal when the T/S parameters aren't suitable for a small box.
You often get higher efficiency than a smaller driver, but not
necessarily lower bass.

I know everything.

That is, except for what T/S paramaters are.

You can basically split all small speaker designs into two eras: before the
thiele-small paper, and after the thiele-small paper. Before Small wrote
a series of articles in the JAES expanding the work of fellow-Australian
Neville Thiele, people designed vented boxes pretty much by trial and error.
The manufacturer made a driver, they put it in a box, they tried different
volumes and portings and maybe adjusted the stiffness of the suspension, but
it was pretty much a matter of just trying things until they worked.

Thiele and Small figured out a relatively small number of parameters that
could be measured on a driver, and then a set of equations that could be
plugged and chugged to figure out the system response of that driver in a
given box. So designers could easily predict what was going to happen before
building anything.

Which is why there was such a dramatic improvement in sound quality of small
vented box speakers beginning in the early seventies.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

nickbatz wrote:
If the slope of the rolloff is very sharp (sharper than 6dB/octave), they
likely were designed to have been used with a subwoofer. They are from that
era where the sat/sub thing was becoming very popular.

Could be, and the rolloff is pretty steep. There actually is some useful response at 40, but between 60 and 30 there's more than a 6dB cut.

But these are tower speakers, and the RSL brochure I found online with similar-looking speakers (except passive radiators, hence my original assumption) didn't have a sub in it.

I'd expect there to be a crossover to the sub built in, even though these are passive xovers. Still, whether or not that was the design, Ima try hooking up my Blue Sky sub just for fun.

The crossover might be built in, it's mechanical. No, we wouldn't do that
today, and yeah, it's a bad idea, but check out the Triad System Model One for
instance.

By the way, Manny LaCarubba (Sausalito Audioworks), who's as good a speaker designer as there is, uses subs in his systems. The twist is that he uses multiple ones, not just a single one. So it's not just that era!

At what point does it cease becoming a subwoofer and become a woofer?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[nickbatz]

The crossover might be built in, it's mechanical. No, we wouldn't do that
today, and yeah, it's a bad idea, but check out the Triad System Model One for
instance.

You mean they might have rolled it off intentionally?

Quite possible.


By the way, Manny LaCarubba (Sausalito Audioworks), who's as good a speaker designer as there is, uses subs in his systems. The twist is that he uses multiple ones, not just a single one. So it's not just that era!

At what point does it cease becoming a subwoofer and become a woofer?

100Hz.

http://www.grimanisystems.com/technology/

I heard those in his workshop/office/whatever you call it. After about ten seconds I forgot I was listening to speakers and got drawn deep into the recordings he played.

[nickbatz]

Thiele and Small figured out a relatively small number of parameters that
could be measured on a driver, and then a set of equations that could be
plugged and chugged to figure out the system response of that driver in a
given box. So designers could easily predict what was going to happen before
building anything.

Which is why there was such a dramatic improvement in sound quality of small
vented box speakers beginning in the early seventies.


Great, thanks, will read up on it.

That was right before my short-lived career working in stereo stores.

[geoff]

On 28/01/2020 9:03 am, nickbatz wrote:
The crossover might be built in, it's mechanical. No, we wouldn't do that
today, and yeah, it's a bad idea, but check out the Triad System Model One for
instance.

You mean they might have rolled it off intentionally?

Quite possible.


By the way, Manny LaCarubba (Sausalito Audioworks), who's as good a speaker designer as there is, uses subs in his systems. The twist is that he uses multiple ones, not just a single one. So it's not just that era!

At what point does it cease becoming a subwoofer and become a woofer?

100Hz.

My woofers go down to 18Hz....

geoff

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 12:03:39 -0800 (PST), nickbatz
wrote:

The crossover might be built in, it's mechanical. No, we wouldn't do that
today, and yeah, it's a bad idea, but check out the Triad System Model One for
instance.

You mean they might have rolled it off intentionally?

Quite possible.


By the way, Manny LaCarubba (Sausalito Audioworks), who's as good a speaker designer as there is, uses subs in his systems. The twist is that he uses multiple ones, not just a single one. So it's not just that era!

At what point does it cease becoming a subwoofer and become a woofer?

100Hz.

http://www.grimanisystems.com/technology/

I heard those in his workshop/office/whatever you call it. After about ten seconds I forgot I was listening to speakers and got drawn deep into the recordings he played.

My woofer tails off at about 60, then the sub continues down to 15.

d

[Trevor]

On 28/01/2020 7:26 am, geoff wrote:
On 28/01/2020 9:03 am, nickbatz wrote:
At what point does it cease becoming a subwoofer and become a woofer?

100Hz.

My woofers go down to 18Hz....


Most woofers go down to 18Hz. Now how much SPL that can pump out at that
frequency is another matter entirely! :-)
That aside, MANY woofers can put out a higher SPL at 30Hz than many *so
called* sub woofers. Current terminology is to call ANY woofer in a
separate single box, a sub woofer. I've seen 3 inch "sub woofers" that
can't manage 100Hz at any normal SPL let alone real bass! :-(

[geoff]

On 28/01/2020 8:53 pm, Trevor wrote:
On 28/01/2020 7:26 am, geoff wrote:
On 28/01/2020 9:03 am, nickbatz wrote:
At what point does it cease becoming a subwoofer and become a woofer?

100Hz.

My woofers go down to 18Hz....


Most woofers go down to 18Hz. Now how much SPL that can pump out at that
frequency is another matter entirely! :-)
That aside, MANY woofers can put out a higher SPL at 30Hz than many *so
called* sub woofers. Current terminology is to call ANY woofer in a
separate single box, a sub woofer. I've seen 3 inch "sub woofers" that
can't manage 100Hz at any normal SPL let alone real bass! :-(





20Hz-20kHz +/- 2dB. (whole speaker !)
Max SPL 112dB

geoff

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 22:40:45 +1300, geoff
wrote:

On 28/01/2020 8:53 pm, Trevor wrote:
On 28/01/2020 7:26 am, geoff wrote:
On 28/01/2020 9:03 am, nickbatz wrote:
At what point does it cease becoming a subwoofer and become a woofer?

100Hz.

My woofers go down to 18Hz....


Most woofers go down to 18Hz. Now how much SPL that can pump out at that
frequency is another matter entirely! :-)
That aside, MANY woofers can put out a higher SPL at 30Hz than many *so
called* sub woofers. Current terminology is to call ANY woofer in a
separate single box, a sub woofer. I've seen 3 inch "sub woofers" that
can't manage 100Hz at any normal SPL let alone real bass! :-(





20Hz-20kHz +/- 2dB. (whole speaker !)
Max SPL 112dB

geoff

+/-2dB? I never saw a speaker at any price that could do that. It
isn't even a spec that means anything without some serious
qualification. Is that whole sphere, half sphere, on axis?

d

[Scott Dorsey]

geoff wrote:

20Hz-20kHz +/- 2dB. (whole speaker !)
Max SPL 112dB

geoff

IT'S A MIRACLE! Someone get the Pope on the phone immediately!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[nickbatz]

On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 11:54:05 PM UTC-8, Trevor wrote:
On 28/01/2020 7:26 am, geoff wrote:
On 28/01/2020 9:03 am, nickbatz wrote:
At what point does it cease becoming a subwoofer and become a woofer?

100Hz.

My woofers go down to 18Hz....


Most woofers go down to 18Hz. Now how much SPL that can pump out at that
frequency is another matter entirely! :-)
That aside, MANY woofers can put out a higher SPL at 30Hz than many *so
called* sub woofers. Current terminology is to call ANY woofer in a
separate single box, a sub woofer. I've seen 3 inch "sub woofers" that
can't manage 100Hz at any normal SPL let alone real bass! :-(


Well yeah, I'd imagine a tweeter could flap 18x a second. The question is whether it's moving enough air to be of any use!

[geoff]

On 29/01/2020 1:52 am, Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 22:40:45 +1300, geoff
wrote:

On 28/01/2020 8:53 pm, Trevor wrote:
On 28/01/2020 7:26 am, geoff wrote:
On 28/01/2020 9:03 am, nickbatz wrote:
At what point does it cease becoming a subwoofer and become a woofer?

100Hz.

My woofers go down to 18Hz....


Most woofers go down to 18Hz. Now how much SPL that can pump out at that
frequency is another matter entirely! :-)
That aside, MANY woofers can put out a higher SPL at 30Hz than many *so
called* sub woofers. Current terminology is to call ANY woofer in a
separate single box, a sub woofer. I've seen 3 inch "sub woofers" that
can't manage 100Hz at any normal SPL let alone real bass! :-(





20Hz-20kHz +/- 2dB. (whole speaker !)
Max SPL 112dB

geoff

+/-2dB? I never saw a speaker at any price that could do that. It
isn't even a spec that means anything without some serious
qualification. Is that whole sphere, half sphere, on axis?

d


Well they sure ain't omnis !Actually the bass end is very omni as it
radiates through a smallish vertically-orientated vent.

The most specific specs I have a
*Frequency response:* 20Hz-20kHz +/- 2dB on reference axis.
*Directional characteristics:* Within 2dB of response on reference axis
up to 15kHz for +/- 10° vertically. Up to 19kHz for +/- 30° horizontally.

The LF extension is very real - The LF rumble at the start of Sting's
'A Thousand Years' (that most people don't even realise is there at all)
gets the house shaking like a reasonable earthquake.

geoff

[Trevor]

On 29/01/2020 6:43 am, nickbatz wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 11:54:05 PM UTC-8, Trevor wrote:
On 28/01/2020 7:26 am, geoff wrote:
On 28/01/2020 9:03 am, nickbatz wrote:
At what point does it cease becoming a subwoofer and become a woofer?

100Hz.

My woofers go down to 18Hz....


Most woofers go down to 18Hz. Now how much SPL that can pump out at that
frequency is another matter entirely! :-)
That aside, MANY woofers can put out a higher SPL at 30Hz than many *so
called* sub woofers. Current terminology is to call ANY woofer in a
separate single box, a sub woofer. I've seen 3 inch "sub woofers" that
can't manage 100Hz at any normal SPL let alone real bass! :-(


Well yeah, I'd imagine a tweeter could flap 18x a second. The question is whether it's moving enough air to be of any use!

Of course it isn't, that's not the point! :-)

[Trevor]

On 29/01/2020 9:40 am, geoff wrote:
On 29/01/2020 1:52 am, Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 22:40:45 +1300, geoff
wrote:
On 28/01/2020 8:53 pm, Trevor wrote:
On 28/01/2020 7:26 am, geoff wrote:
On 28/01/2020 9:03 am, nickbatz wrote:
At what point does it cease becoming a subwoofer and become a
woofer?

100Hz.

My woofers go down to 18Hz....


Most woofers go down to 18Hz. Now how much SPL that can pump out at
that
frequency is another matter entirely! :-)
That aside, MANY woofers can put out a higher SPL at 30Hz than many *so
called* sub woofers. Current terminology is to call ANY woofer in a
separate single box, a sub woofer. I've seen 3 inch "sub woofers" that
can't manage 100Hz at any normal SPL let alone real bass! :-(

20Hz-20kHz +/- 2dB. (whole speaker !)
Max SPL 112dB

+/-2dB? I never saw a speaker at any price that could do that. It
isn't even a spec that means anything without some serious
qualification. Is that whole sphere, half sphere, on axis?


Well they sure ain't omnis !Actually the bass end is very omni as it
radiates through a smallish vertically-orientated vent.

The most specific specs I have a
*Frequency response:* 20Hz-20kHz +/- 2dB on reference axis.
*Directional characteristics:* Within 2dB of response on reference axis
up to 15kHz for +/- 10° vertically. Up to 19kHz for +/- 30° horizontally.

The LF extension is very real - The LF rumble at the start of Sting's 'A
Thousand Years' (that most people don't even realise is there at all)
gets the house shaking like a reasonable earthquake.



So do tell us what are these wonder speakers? Assuming the specs are
remotely correct, that's more impressive than just the bass.

[[email protected]]

I'd expect there to be a crossover to the sub built in, even though these are passive xovers. Still, whether or not that was the design, Ima try hooking up my Blue Sky sub just for fun.

By the way, Manny LaCarubba (Sausalito Audioworks), who's as good a speaker designer as there is, uses subs in his systems. The twist is that he uses multiple ones, not just a single one. So it's not just that era!

problem with multiple subs is that unless the subs are located right next to each other, there will be areas in the room (or space) with destructive interference and other areas with constructive interference.

m

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 06:53:59 -0800 (PST), wrote:



I'd expect there to be a crossover to the sub built in, even though these are passive xovers. Still, whether or not that was the design, Ima try hooking up my Blue Sky sub just for fun.

By the way, Manny LaCarubba (Sausalito Audioworks), who's as good a speaker designer as there is, uses subs in his systems. The twist is that he uses multiple ones, not just a single one. So it's not just that era!

problem with multiple subs is that unless the subs are located right next to each other, there will be areas in the room (or space) with destructive interference and other areas with constructive interference.

m

Unless the room is unusually well acoustically treated those areas are
plentiful even with a single low end driver. Room modes are really
hard to get rid of. I've managed to drop the peak-to-trough ratio to
about 13dB in my listening room and I have no idea how to improve it
short of going anechoic - which isn't happening.

d

[geoff]

On 29/01/2020 5:24 pm, Trevor wrote:
On 29/01/2020 9:40 am, geoff wrote:
On 29/01/2020 1:52 am, Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 22:40:45 +1300, geoff
wrote:
On 28/01/2020 8:53 pm, Trevor wrote:
On 28/01/2020 7:26 am, geoff wrote:
On 28/01/2020 9:03 am, nickbatz wrote:
At what point does it cease becoming a subwoofer and become a
woofer?

100Hz.

My woofers go down to 18Hz....


Most woofers go down to 18Hz. Now how much SPL that can pump out at
that
frequency is another matter entirely! :-)
That aside, MANY woofers can put out a higher SPL at 30Hz than many
*so
called* sub woofers. Current terminology is to call ANY woofer in a
separate single box, a sub woofer. I've seen 3 inch "sub woofers" that
can't manage 100Hz at any normal SPL let alone real bass! :-(

20Hz-20kHz +/- 2dB. (whole speaker !)
Max SPL 112dB

+/-2dB? I never saw a speaker at any price that could do that. It
isn't even a spec that means anything without some serious
qualification. Is that whole sphere, half sphere, on axis?


Well they sure ain't omnis !Actually the bass end is very omni as it
radiates through a smallish vertically-orientated vent.

The most specific specs I have a
*Frequency response:* 20Hz-20kHz +/- 2dB on reference axis.
*Directional characteristics:* Within 2dB of response on reference
axis up to 15kHz for +/- 10° vertically. Up to 19kHz for +/- 30°
horizontally.

The LF extension is very real - The LF rumble at the start of Sting's
'A Thousand Years' (that most people don't even realise is there at
all) gets the house shaking like a reasonable earthquake.



So do tell us what are these wonder speakers? Assuming the specs are
remotely correct, that's more impressive than just the bass.





Not 'wonder-speakers' at all. Just regular KEF Reference 107 from the
'80s. And no, the KUBE is not applying vast amounts of bass boost
electronically.

https://www.usahifi.com/sites/defaul...Brochu re.pdf

geoff

[nickbatz]

problem with multiple subs is that unless the subs are located right next to each other, there will be areas in the room (or space) with destructive interference and other areas with constructive interference.


Or unless Manny set them up.

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:

problem with multiple subs is that unless the subs are located right next to each other, there will be areas in the room (or space) with destructive interference and other areas with constructive interference.

That's a feature, not a bug. The good part is that the changing phase
relationships give you low frequency imaging. The bad part is that in
poor rooms, the changing phase relationships give you bizarre imaging that
bears little relationship to what is on the original recording.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:

problem with multiple subs is that unless the subs are located right next to each other, there will be areas in the room (or space) with destructive interference and other areas with constructive interference.

That's a feature, not a bug. The good part is that the changing phase
relationships give you low frequency imaging. The bad part is that in
poor rooms, the changing phase relationships give you bizarre imaging that
bears little relationship to what is on the original recording.
--scott


I looked at subs for ... years. They're all but unbuyable.

I finally gave up and we now have a Logitech 2.1 computer speaker setup
on the big TV. I bought it to fill the gap and never bothered upgrading.
One of my kids had the same model, and I thought they weren't too bad.
Her room has an expanse of hard floor that's not kind to them, but we're
on carpet.

Yeah, it's got a 2-4k bump but it's a TV setup and they hide the dialog
under the foleys these days. No, really - you watch a 1960s movie on
them and it's just fine.

I should get an impulse of that setup.

--
Les Cargill

[geoff]

On 30/01/2020 3:11 pm, Les Cargill wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Â* wrote:

problem with multiple subs is that unless the subs are located right
next to each other, there will be areas in the room (or space)Â* with
destructive interference and other areas with constructive interference.

That's a feature, not a bug.Â* The good part is that the changing phase
relationships give you low frequency imaging.Â* The bad part is that in
poor rooms, the changing phase relationships give you bizarre imaging
that
bears little relationship to what is on the original recording.
--scott


I looked at subs for ... years. They're all but unbuyable.

I finally gave up and we now have a Logitech 2.1 computer speaker setup
on the big TV. I bought it to fill the gap and never bothered upgrading.
One of my kids had the same model, and I thought they weren't too bad.
Her room has an expanse of hard floor that's not kind to them, but we're
on carpet.

Yeah, it's got a 2-4k bump but it's a TV setup and they hide the dialog
under the foleys these days. No, really - you watch a 1960s movie on
them and it's just fine.

I should get an impulse of that setup.


I ended up buying a 2.1 'sound-bar' for my lounge TV everyday use,
because the sound on the TV purchased to replace a dead one was so poor
I initially took it back thinking it faulty.


Seems that most TVs' native sound today is similar quality to a 3"
transistor radio of the 1970s - presumably in a cynical move to enforce
the purchase of extra gear, or a cop-out promoted by the apparent need
for TVs to have increasing shallow physical depth.


I stick TV/DVD/BR sound through my domestic stereo instead for any
'serious' watching/listening.

geoff

[david gourley[_4_]]

Les Cargill :

Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:

problem with multiple subs is that unless the subs are located right
next to each other, there will be areas in the room (or space) with
destructive interference and other areas with constructive interference.

That's a feature, not a bug. The good part is that the changing phase
relationships give you low frequency imaging. The bad part is that in
poor rooms, the changing phase relationships give you bizarre imaging
that
bears little relationship to what is on the original recording.
--scott


I looked at subs for ... years. They're all but unbuyable.

I finally gave up and we now have a Logitech 2.1 computer speaker setup
on the big TV. I bought it to fill the gap and never bothered upgrading.
One of my kids had the same model, and I thought they weren't too bad.
Her room has an expanse of hard floor that's not kind to them, but we're
on carpet.

Yeah, it's got a 2-4k bump but it's a TV setup and they hide the dialog
under the foleys these days. No, really - you watch a 1960s movie on
them and it's just fine.

I should get an impulse of that setup.


That's funny. I use the same thing on our main TV too. It was better than
any sound bar I heard.

david

[nickbatz]

I ended up buying a 2.1 'sound-bar' for my lounge TV everyday use,
because the sound on the TV purchased to replace a dead one was so poor

geoff

Same here, only it's 3.0 (no sub but a center speaker).

I used extreme critical golden ears technique when evaluating it, aka I bought the one that was the same brand as our TV sight unseen so I wouldn't have to phaff with yet another remote.

It's perfect for what it is.


Les Cargill wrote:

"I looked at subs for ... years. They're all but unbuyable."

The one I have is part of my Blue Sky System One, which consists of sealed sats + the subwoofer. It's very well integrated, unlike almost every other sub system I've hears.

There is one system that impressed the hell out of me: an $80 sub from Costco added to a pair of NS-10s. I'm not kidding! It helps that the guy who owns this setup is an absolutely amazing engineer.

[Trevor]

On 30/01/2020 1:55 pm, geoff wrote:

I ended up buying a 2.1 'sound-bar' for my lounge TV everyday use,
because the sound on the TV purchased to replace a dead one was so poor
I initially took it back thinking it faulty.


Seems that most TVs' native sound today is similar quality to a 3"
transistor radio of the 1970s - presumably in a cynical move to enforce
the purchase of extra gear, or a cop-out promoted by the apparent need
for TVs to have increasing shallow physical depth.


Bingo! They simply can't sell a flat screen TV with a big enough space
for proper speakers to locate. It is now well accepted that you will use
a separate speaker set up of some kind, and that's probably a good thing
IMO.



I stick TV/DVD/BR sound through my domestic stereo instead for any
'serious' watching/listening.

As do many people who don't have or want a full 5.1 or 7.1 HT set up.