[[email protected]]

I just am not satisfied with the sound from any solid state amplifiers.
I have tried high end home amps and even some top of the line amps made
for commercial use. (Stage equipment).

I miss my old tube system that I had years ago. Those tube amps pumped
out 300W (RMS) and had more actual power than my current 1200W (RMS)
solid state system..

Semiconductors are made from sand, and that is what they sound like. I
like the warm sound of the metal elements and the heat of the filament
inside of tubes. Plus I miss watching the dancing purple glow (purple
haze) inside of the tubes. (You dont see anything in solid state amps).

I had no real reason to post this other than state my opinion and get it
off my chest.

[Dave]

Glass tubes are also made of sand, probably why tubes are supposed to have a warm, beachy sound.

[Ed Presson[_2_]]

"Dave" wrote in message ...

Glass tubes are also made of sand, probably why tubes are supposed to have
a warm, beachy sound.

If two or three or more decades have passed, it's possible the poster's
hearing has changed.

[~misfit~[_3_]]

Once upon a time on usenet Ed Presson wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message ...

Glass tubes are also made of sand, probably why tubes are supposed
to have a warm, beachy sound.

If two or three or more decades have passed, it's possible the
poster's hearing has changed.

Not to mention the nostalgia factor and the huge wattage he's using having
an effect on hearing.

I guess I'm also guilty of feeding a troll....
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

[Peter Wieck[_2_]]

On Wednesday, September 5, 2018 at 7:09:04 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I just am not satisfied with the sound from any solid state amplifiers.
I have tried high end home amps and even some top of the line amps made
for commercial use. (Stage equipment).

I miss my old tube system that I had years ago. Those tube amps pumped
out 300W (RMS) and had more actual power than my current 1200W (RMS)
solid state system..

Semiconductors are made from sand, and that is what they sound like. I
like the warm sound of the metal elements and the heat of the filament
inside of tubes. Plus I miss watching the dancing purple glow (purple
haze) inside of the tubes. (You dont see anything in solid state amps).

I had no real reason to post this other than state my opinion and get it
off my chest.

Ummmmm... brand of tube amp that made 200 watts? That would be 6 x KT88/6550 per channel. More on this later.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Peter Wieck[_2_]]

On Wednesday, September 5, 2018 at 7:09:04 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I just am not satisfied with the sound from any solid state amplifiers.
I have tried high end home amps and even some top of the line amps made
for commercial use. (Stage equipment).

If you are using a Class D amp, they are utterly merciless when it comes to bad signal or poor speakers. And, they have a few additional issues, none of which are insurmountable.

Tube amps clip softly, and in some cases 'mold' the music to sound less edgy. In fact, they are _REMOVING_ or _ALTERING_ signal thereby.

Meaning that you may be hearing stuff for the first time with your SS amp - and what you are hearing may not be what you like. But, that does not change the fact that it is there.

Then, of course, there are the speakers. I keep Maggie MGIIIas with the outboard crossovers. My 75 wpc/rms tube amp is very nearly useless driving them, but my 225 wpc/rms SS amp does quite nicely.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[[email protected]]

On 6 Sep 2018 02:27:51 GMT, "Ed Presson" wrote:

"Dave" wrote in message ...

Glass tubes are also made of sand, probably why tubes are supposed to have
a warm, beachy sound.

If two or three or more decades have passed, it's possible the poster's
hearing has changed.


My hearing is fine. (Cant say that for my eyesite though).
If I am close to a stage at a rock concert, I can easily tell which
guitar amps are tube, without even seeing the amp.

The SHELL part of a glass tube is made from sand, but the shell is not
the active part of the electronics inside of it. It's just a container
and what holds the vacuum around the metal elements.

[Trevor Wilson]

On 5/09/2018 9:09 pm, wrote:
I just am not satisfied with the sound from any solid state amplifiers.
I have tried high end home amps and even some top of the line amps made
for commercial use. (Stage equipment).

**Then you need to listen to some different (SS) amps.


I miss my old tube system that I had years ago. Those tube amps pumped
out 300W (RMS) and had more actual power than my current 1200W (RMS)
solid state system..

**Just a nit: There is no such thing as 300 Watts RMS. I suspect you
mean 300 Watts (continuous). In any case, I'd be curious to know which
valve amps you had that could deliver 300 Watts (continuous). Also,
1,200 Watts, continuous, is impossible, unless you are operating on a
multi-phase power supply. So, the questions a

* What was your valve amp?
* What is your SS amp?

IF we take you at your word (and I don't), then a 1,200 Watt amp will
deliver more power than a 300 Watt amp. However, that only tells part of
the story, as valve amps are different to MOST SS amps, due to various
factors, such as Voltage limiting (clipping), current limiting, the way
the two different technologies operate into a varying load impedance
(like a speaker system). That said, it is feasible to construct a SS amp
such that it responds much like a valve amp, if that's what you desire.
So, it's not the technology (SS or valve), but it is more related to the
topology.


Semiconductors are made from sand, and that is what they sound like.

**Nonsense. Like all such things, there are some pretty ordinary
sounding SS amps and some pretty decent sounding ones. Same a valve
amps. There's good and bad there too.


I
like the warm sound of the metal elements and the heat of the filament
inside of tubes.

**Nope. More likely, you are focusing on other aspects of the
amplifiers. Things like:

* The lack of extension at both ends of the frequency spectrum.
* The excessive levels of even order harmonic distortion.
* The lack of hard Voltage limiting.
* The lack of current limiting problems.
* The excessively high output impedance, which leads to frequency
response errors that please you.

All of which can easily be duplicated with transistors, should a
designer desire it.


Plus I miss watching the dancing purple glow (purple
haze) inside of the tubes. (You dont see anything in solid state amps).

**Can't argue that, but you could plonk one of these on the front of
your amp (looks nicer than a gassy valve):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQxXD6dpaCo


I had no real reason to post this other than state my opinion and get it
off my chest.

**Fair enough.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 6:01:26 AM UTC-5, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 5/09/2018 9:09 pm, wrote:
I just am not satisfied with the sound from any solid state amplifiers.
I have tried high end home amps and even some top of the line amps made
for commercial use. (Stage equipment).

**Then you need to listen to some different (SS) amps.


I suspect that if its stage equipment, the amps AND the speakers
are of the same class, where audio fidelity is NOT a primary
design driver.

I miss my old tube system that I had years ago. Those tube amps pumped
out 300W (RMS) and had more actual power than my current 1200W (RMS)
solid state system..

You actually measured this? Really?

I'd be curious to know which valve amps you had that
could deliver 300 Watts (continuous). 1,200 Watts,
continuous, is impossible, unless you are operating on a
multi-phase power supply.

Not necessarily. let's look at the details.

Let's assume an optimally designed and biased class AB tube
amplifier. The output stage is going to run at 40% efficiency,
tops, which means at 300 watts, it's going to be pulling
300 watts/40% or 750 watts from the wall. Generously assume
the power budget for the remainder of the amp is 40 watts
(filaments, dancing purple glow, etc.), means that the power
supply has to provide about 800 watts. Assume the power supply
transformer is running at about 90% efficiency, that means the
amp, running full tilt, is consuming around 900 watts. It will
run fine by itself on a single 15-amp circuit, at worst pulling
7.5 amps at 120 VAC.

Now, let's do the same for this hypothetical 1200 watt amp:
assume the same 40% class-AB efficiency, but we need much less
of a power budget for everything else, so consumption from the
supply is 3000 Watts. Assume the same transformer efficiency,
that's 3400 watts. At 120 volts, that's 28 amps at 120 VAC,
a lot to be sure, but it would run fine on a 30 amp. Run it at
240 VAC, that's 14 amps.

Look at it another way, it's like running a 1.25 HP vs a 4 HP motor
under load: at 220 VAC, you don't need multi-phase power (well,
multi-phase would help startup, but that's not so much of an
issue with an amplifier).

I like the warm sound of the metal elements and the heat of the filament
inside of tubes.

**Nope. More likely, you are focusing on other aspects of the
amplifiers. Things like:

* The lack of extension at both ends of the frequency spectrum.

Except in some pathological cases, the real difference in bandwidth
is insignificant.

* The excessive levels of even order harmonic distortion.

Sorry, this is something of a myth. A lot of tube crcuits do
have even order harmonics, not because they're tubes, but
because they are essentially running single-ended (not meaning to
suggest they are one of those pathological examples of single-
ended power amps using ancient fire bottles like 300Bs).

A similar single-ended solid state circuit with bit of non-linearity
will also have an emphasis on even-order products.

But, if the guy's listening to the kind of amps he claims, we
can rest assured these are push-pull, symmetrical amps, which
means regardless of whether they are solid state or tubes, the
non-linearities will be symmetrical and thus the distortion
products resulting from the non-linearities will be be predominantly
odd-order.

* The lack of hard Voltage limiting.

Only an issue if they guy is listening at such levels the amps
are spending a lot of time clipping: and in such cases, the speakers
almost inevitable have order of magnitude worse distortion.

* The lack of current limiting problems.

Well, no: if the amps have the power levels he claims, betcha they
have plenty of current. And

* The excessively high output impedance, which leads to frequency
response errors that please you.


Maybe.

All of which can easily be duplicated with transistors, should a
designer desire it.

Yes, a designer can. Remember a corralary of Suffolk Audio's
first law of acoustics:

Any idiot can design an amplifier and, unfortunately,
many do.

Plus I miss watching the dancing purple glow (purple
haze) inside of the tubes. (You don't see anything in
solid state amps).

Depends upon what you're smoking, and whether that smoke is
coming from the amps with the tubes that are seriously over-driven
and not just a little gassy, or somewhere else.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 9:54:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 6:01:26 AM UTC-5, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 5/09/2018 9:09 pm, wrote:
I just am not satisfied with the sound from any solid state amplifiers.
I have tried high end home amps and even some top of the line amps made
for commercial use. (Stage equipment).

I miss my old tube system that I had years ago. Those tube amps pumped
out 300W (RMS) and had more actual power than my current 1200W (RMS)
solid state system..

I'd be curious to know which valve amps you had that
could deliver 300 Watts (continuous). 1,200 Watts,
continuous, is impossible, unless you are operating on a
multi-phase power supply.

Not necessarily. let's look at the details.
....
Now, let's do the same for this hypothetical 1200 watt amp:
assume the same 40% class-AB efficiency, but we need much less
of a power budget for everything else, so consumption from the
supply is 3000 Watts. Assume the same transformer efficiency,
that's 3400 watts. At 120 volts, that's 28 amps at 120 VAC,
a lot to be sure, but it would run fine on a 30 amp. Run it at
240 VAC, that's 14 amps.

Sorry, I got distracted and forgot the other case. The guy
talks about "stage equipment", so we also need to entertain
the possibility that this supposed 1200 watt amp is a switcher,
in which case we're looking at an overall efficiency of 85%,
which means this 1200 watt amp is pulling, at peak, 1400 watts
from the wall. At 120 VAC, that's a bit under 12 amps, and would
run fine on a 15 amp circuit.

Look at it another way, it's like running a 1.25 HP vs a 4 HP motor
under load: at 220 VAC, you don't need multi-phase power (well,
multi-phase would help startup, but that's not so much of an
issue with an amplifier).

And in the switcher case, that's less than 2 HP.

[Trevor Wilson]

On 22/11/2018 12:20 am, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 9:54:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 6:01:26 AM UTC-5, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 5/09/2018 9:09 pm, wrote:
I just am not satisfied with the sound from any solid state amplifiers.
I have tried high end home amps and even some top of the line amps made
for commercial use. (Stage equipment).

I miss my old tube system that I had years ago. Those tube amps pumped
out 300W (RMS) and had more actual power than my current 1200W (RMS)
solid state system..

I'd be curious to know which valve amps you had that
could deliver 300 Watts (continuous). 1,200 Watts,
continuous, is impossible, unless you are operating on a
multi-phase power supply.

Not necessarily. let's look at the details.
...
Now, let's do the same for this hypothetical 1200 watt amp:
assume the same 40% class-AB efficiency, but we need much less
of a power budget for everything else, so consumption from the
supply is 3000 Watts. Assume the same transformer efficiency,
that's 3400 watts. At 120 volts, that's 28 amps at 120 VAC,
a lot to be sure, but it would run fine on a 30 amp. Run it at
240 VAC, that's 14 amps.

Sorry, I got distracted and forgot the other case. The guy
talks about "stage equipment", so we also need to entertain
the possibility that this supposed 1200 watt amp is a switcher,
in which case we're looking at an overall efficiency of 85%,
which means this 1200 watt amp is pulling, at peak, 1400 watts
from the wall. At 120 VAC, that's a bit under 12 amps, and would
run fine on a 15 amp circuit.

**I have, perhaps foolishly, assumed that the amp was a two channel one.


Look at it another way, it's like running a 1.25 HP vs a 4 HP motor
under load: at 220 VAC, you don't need multi-phase power (well,
multi-phase would help startup, but that's not so much of an
issue with an amplifier).

And in the switcher case, that's less than 2 HP.

**Perhaps the OP will reveal some more details of the set-up. Then we
can discuss the issue with more helpful responses.



--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Peter Wieck[_2_]]

Guys and gals:

The OP is a person-of-strong-opinion. Nothing wrong with that, but if the starting point is "stage equipment", that puts a specific slant on what is being represented herein.

Back in the day, now 50 years ago, I ran a professional 35mm RCA projection system that an individual had donated to my high-school, along with the building it was in and other gifts. It was an RCA system set up for visual Mono and magnetic stereo - but the school used only the visual sound-track. That was a total of six (6) 6L6 output tubes driven by 6SN7 drivers to a single pretty large horn behind the screen. Did fine. My guess is about 60 watts, continuous if necessary. The stereo amps were 4 x 6L6 each.

I did once observe reinforcement equipment at a large NYC theater venue - multiple tube amps that may, in total, have reached 500 watts or so. It is perhaps possible that a WHO concert back in the day might have 1000 +/- watts on stage, or maybe the cumulative effect of Woodstock. But 3,000 watts? OK, then.

Point being that not one single example cited herein was designed as an exercise in High Fidelity. More an exercise in making noise as efficiently as possible with the equipment at-hand.

Hindsight is always 20:20, often enhanced by wishful thinking to 20:10 or even better. As I suggested earlier, solid-state equipment of high wattage (and decent quality) is totally merciless on the signal fed to it. Tube equipment driven to clipping is very soft (and easy) on the same sources.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA