[mcp6453[_2_]]

Why is the output level of an RE20 so low? Back in my radio days, I never paid
much attention to its output level. It just became noticeable to me when I used
it with my Sony PCM-M10.

Is an RE-27's output higher? Noticeably higher?

If you need a utility USB mic for your kit, the Blue Snowball is on sale for
$57.99 shipped from Amazon. This microphone is fantastic for its intended purpose.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EOPQ7E/

[Mike Rivers]

On 4/17/2010 7:14 AM, mcp6453 wrote:

Why is the output level of an RE20 so low?

Because back in the day it was a good match for the mic inputs that
people were using. Also, the capability for +24 dBu output at the mic
preamp was because you normally only peaked at around +14 (10 dB over
the nominal Ampex reference level). Today's A/D converters want at least
+20 dBu in to get to full scale, and everyone is afraid that if they
don't record full scale peaks their levels aren't hot enough.

It just became noticeable to me when I used
it with my Sony PCM-M10

The PCM-M10 is actually pretty good in this respect. Don't try it with a
Zoom H2.

Is an RE-27's output higher? Noticeably higher?

Not a lot.

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 4/17/2010 7:45 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:

The PCM-M10 is actually pretty good in this respect. Don't try it with a
Zoom H2.

Actually, I'm thinking about getting involved in some live, voice-only projects
in which I could have as many as four wireless lavaliers. The idea of recording
each mic on its own channel so preclude having to mix on the spot has a lot of
appeal. The only portable recorder that I see with four channel simultaneous
recording is the Zoom H4N. Is there another? Level shouldn't be a problem since
the lav receivers have line outs.

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 4/17/2010 7:51 AM, mcp6453 wrote:
On 4/17/2010 7:45 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:

The PCM-M10 is actually pretty good in this respect. Don't try it with a
Zoom H2.

Actually, I'm thinking about getting involved in some live, voice-only projects
in which I could have as many as four wireless lavaliers. The idea of recording
each mic on its own channel so preclude having to mix on the spot has a lot of
appeal. The only portable recorder that I see with four channel simultaneous
recording is the Zoom H4N. Is there another? Level shouldn't be a problem since
the lav receivers have line outs.

Look what I found.

http://tinyurl.com/y4opbr3

For $1000. That seems like a steal.

[Scott Dorsey]

mcp6453 wrote:
Why is the output level of an RE20 so low? Back in my radio days, I never paid
much attention to its output level. It just became noticeable to me when I used
it with my Sony PCM-M10.

Back then, everything was that low, and everything was going into transformer
balanced inputs. I bet if you put a 1:5 step-up transformer in front of your
M10 preamp that you'll have plenty of gain.

Is an RE-27's output higher? Noticeably higher?

It's 6 dB higher at 1 Khz, but the presence band is up more than that.
It's louder, but it's also a really different sound.

if you need a utility USB mic for your kit, the Blue Snowball is on sale for
$57.99 shipped from Amazon. This microphone is fantastic for its intended purpose.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EOPQ7E/

The guys at BLUE are pretty smart, and I think the acoustical design on that
one was actually done by Martins, who is a real acoustical engineer and not
just someone slapping stuff together to look nice. I have never used a BLUE
product that wasn't useful although I have used a few that were pretty weird.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 4/17/2010 10:23 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
mcp6453 wrote:
Why is the output level of an RE20 so low? Back in my radio days, I never paid
much attention to its output level. It just became noticeable to me when I used
it with my Sony PCM-M10.

Back then, everything was that low, and everything was going into transformer
balanced inputs. I bet if you put a 1:5 step-up transformer in front of your
M10 preamp that you'll have plenty of gain.

Who makes 1:5 mic transformers these days? I think I really like the sound of
transformers.

[Scott Dorsey]

mcp6453 wrote:
On 4/17/2010 10:23 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
mcp6453 wrote:
Why is the output level of an RE20 so low? Back in my radio days, I never paid
much attention to its output level. It just became noticeable to me when I used
it with my Sony PCM-M10.

Back then, everything was that low, and everything was going into transformer
balanced inputs. I bet if you put a 1:5 step-up transformer in front of your
M10 preamp that you'll have plenty of gain.

Who makes 1:5 mic transformers these days? I think I really like the sound of
transformers.

Lundahl will sell you a box with a step-up in it, as will Jensen. But before
doing either one, try one of the 600-10K ohm transformer gadgets from Edcor.
They are dirt cheap, and they really aren't bad at all. Definite sleepers.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[david gourley]

mcp6453 put forth the notion
in...news:epydnUGxgKSkYFTWnZ2dnUVZ_hCdnZ2d@giganew s.com:

On 4/17/2010 10:23 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
mcp6453 wrote:
Why is the output level of an RE20 so low? Back in my radio days, I
never paid
much attention to its output level. It just became noticeable to me
when I used
it with my Sony PCM-M10.

Back then, everything was that low, and everything was going into
transformer
balanced inputs. I bet if you put a 1:5 step-up transformer in front of
your
M10 preamp that you'll have plenty of gain.

Who makes 1:5 mic transformers these days? I think I really like the
sound of
transformers.

http://www.kandkaudio.com/transformers.html

They're in Apex, Mike.

david

[mcp6453[_2_]]

David, you and Scott can help me here while I embarrass myself. The nominal load
for an RE20 is 150 ohms, I assume. The actual input impedance of a Mackie preamp
is 1.3K. While a 5:1 transformer would certainly provide voltage gain, what
about impedances? Of course the preamp bridges the mic without a transformer,
but it seems to me that a 5:1 transformer would cause the preamp impedance
(reflected back to the primary) to excessively load the mic output.

What I am missing?

On 4/17/2010 8:32 PM, david gourley wrote:
mcp6453 put forth the notion
in...news:epydnUGxgKSkYFTWnZ2dnUVZ_hCdnZ2d@giganew s.com:

On 4/17/2010 10:23 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
mcp6453 wrote:
Why is the output level of an RE20 so low? Back in my radio days, I
never paid
much attention to its output level. It just became noticeable to me
when I used
it with my Sony PCM-M10.

Back then, everything was that low, and everything was going into
transformer
balanced inputs. I bet if you put a 1:5 step-up transformer in front of
your
M10 preamp that you'll have plenty of gain.

Who makes 1:5 mic transformers these days? I think I really like the
sound of
transformers.

http://www.kandkaudio.com/transformers.html

They're in Apex, Mike.

david

[Scott Dorsey]

mcp6453 wrote:
David, you and Scott can help me here while I embarrass myself. The nominal load
for an RE20 is 150 ohms, I assume. The actual input impedance of a Mackie preamp
is 1.3K. While a 5:1 transformer would certainly provide voltage gain, what
about impedances? Of course the preamp bridges the mic without a transformer,
but it seems to me that a 5:1 transformer would cause the preamp impedance
(reflected back to the primary) to excessively load the mic output.

What I am missing?

That the actual input impedance of the preamp that you've got is probably
5K or higher. Doing low-Z inputs right without using a transformer is
hard, and most designers just ignore the issues because most users don't
care and they don't want to add any additional cost at all.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 4/17/2010 8:49 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
mcp6453 wrote:
David, you and Scott can help me here while I embarrass myself. The nominal load
for an RE20 is 150 ohms, I assume. The actual input impedance of a Mackie preamp
is 1.3K. While a 5:1 transformer would certainly provide voltage gain, what
about impedances? Of course the preamp bridges the mic without a transformer,
but it seems to me that a 5:1 transformer would cause the preamp impedance
(reflected back to the primary) to excessively load the mic output.

What I am missing?

That the actual input impedance of the preamp that you've got is probably
5K or higher. Doing low-Z inputs right without using a transformer is
hard, and most designers just ignore the issues because most users don't
care and they don't want to add any additional cost at all.
--scott


Makes sense. Now, is this one of the Edcor units you were recommending? How do
we know that it is usable for mic levels?

http://www.edcorusa.com/Products/ShowProduct.aspx?ID=28

[david gourley]

mcp6453 put forth the notion
in...news:Fr2dnZO7PtEAyVfWnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@giganew s.com:

David, you and Scott can help me here while I embarrass myself. The
nominal load
for an RE20 is 150 ohms, I assume. The actual input impedance of a Mackie
preamp
is 1.3K. While a 5:1 transformer would certainly provide voltage gain,
what
about impedances? Of course the preamp bridges the mic without a
transformer,
but it seems to me that a 5:1 transformer would cause the preamp
impedance
(reflected back to the primary) to excessively load the mic output.

What I am missing?

Nothing, really. I agree with Scott that the impedance is likely higher in
the first place. They probably establish that spec for 'quality' reasons
if nothing else.

I don't think you'd go wrong with K&K (I need to go there myself), and they
can probably give you some additional tips as well.

david






On 4/17/2010 8:32 PM, david gourley wrote:
mcp6453 put forth the notion
in...news:epydnUGxgKSkYFTWnZ2dnUVZ_hCdnZ2d@giganew s.com:

On 4/17/2010 10:23 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
mcp6453 wrote:
Why is the output level of an RE20 so low? Back in my radio days, I
never paid
much attention to its output level. It just became noticeable to me
when I used
it with my Sony PCM-M10.

Back then, everything was that low, and everything was going into
transformer
balanced inputs. I bet if you put a 1:5 step-up transformer in front
of
your
M10 preamp that you'll have plenty of gain.

Who makes 1:5 mic transformers these days? I think I really like the
sound of
transformers.

http://www.kandkaudio.com/transformers.html

They're in Apex, Mike.

david

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 4/17/2010 9:20 PM, david gourley wrote:
mcp6453 put forth the notion

What I am missing?

Nothing, really. I agree with Scott that the impedance is likely higher in
the first place. They probably establish that spec for 'quality' reasons
if nothing else.

I don't think you'd go wrong with K&K (I need to go there myself), and they
can probably give you some additional tips as well.

Are they a stocking dealer or a manufacturer's rep? I've never heard of them.

[Scott Dorsey]

mcp6453 wrote:
On 4/17/2010 9:20 PM, david gourley wrote:
mcp6453 put forth the notion

What I am missing?

Nothing, really. I agree with Scott that the impedance is likely higher in
the first place. They probably establish that spec for 'quality' reasons
if nothing else.

I don't think you'd go wrong with K&K (I need to go there myself), and they
can probably give you some additional tips as well.

Are they a stocking dealer or a manufacturer's rep? I've never heard of them.

Kevin is the US rep for Lundahl. He is a really, really good fellow and
I cannot speak highly enough about him or his products.

However.... Edcor makes a nice step-up for ten bucks.... it's not in the
same league as the Lundahls but I've used it in the past for mike input
stages and it's not half bad. It'll at least let you know if you're on the
right track.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[david gourley]

mcp6453 put forth the notion in...news:ldmdnSsS-
:

On 4/17/2010 9:20 PM, david gourley wrote:
mcp6453 put forth the notion

What I am missing?

Nothing, really. I agree with Scott that the impedance is likely higher
in
the first place. They probably establish that spec for 'quality'
reasons
if nothing else.

I don't think you'd go wrong with K&K (I need to go there myself), and
they
can probably give you some additional tips as well.

Are they a stocking dealer or a manufacturer's rep? I've never heard of
them.


My impression is that they're a stocking dealer; now, " how many of what
kind " I just don't know. Their order page implies that at least some
things are stocked. They have a good discussion forum, too.

I found them several years ago when I was looking for Lundahl U.S.
suppliers. I sure was suprised to find them in our backyard !

david

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 4/17/2010 9:54 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

Kevin is the US rep for Lundahl. He is a really, really good fellow and
I cannot speak highly enough about him or his products.

I'll try to connect with him later this week.

However.... Edcor makes a nice step-up for ten bucks....

The cheapest I can find for a microphone step up (if I picked the right one) is
$24. Do you know the model of the one you're thinking about?

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 4/17/2010 9:54 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

However.... Edcor makes a nice step-up for ten bucks.... it's not in the
same league as the Lundahls but I've used it in the past for mike input
stages and it's not half bad. It'll at least let you know if you're on the
right track.
--scott

....unless you mean this one.

http://www.edcorusa.com/Products/ShowProduct.aspx?ID=92

[Mike Rivers]

On 4/17/2010 8:38 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The nominal load
for an RE20 is 150 ohms, I assume. The actual input impedance of a Mackie preamp
is 1.3K. While a 5:1 transformer would certainly provide voltage gain, what
about impedances?

Actually, the SOURCE impedance of the mic is 150 ohms,. It actually
wants to be loaded
with something considerably higher. One of the finest mic preamps
around, the Gordon, has
an input impedance of 2 megohms. The mic preamps with variable input
impedance simply
have a control that makes the mic sound worse, at least in certain
respects, however sometimes a mic may benefit from heavier damping, and
that's where it's effective to play with the load impedance if you can,
and want to bother.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:

On 4/17/2010 8:38 PM, mcp6453 wrote:

The nominal load
for an RE20 is 150 ohms, I assume. The actual input impedance of a
Mackie preamp is 1.3K. While a 5:1 transformer would certainly
provide voltage gain, what about impedances?

The 5:1 ratio _is_ the impedance ratio, strictly speaking the number of
turns ratio.

Actually, the SOURCE impedance of the mic is 150 ohms,. It actually
wants to be loaded with something considerably higher.

Moving coil thingies (moving coil grammophone cartridged included) tend to
like the load zone 5 to 10 times their internal impedance, and apparent from
the Shure SM57 dicussions it is (also) with mics an issue of treble
transient purity vs. treble resonance. Back in the days of the first version
Ultimo phonograph cartridge the default suggestion was to solder 1 kOhm
across the amplifier input.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

One of the finest mic preamps
around, the Gordon, has
an input impedance of 2 megohms. The mic preamps with variable input
impedance simply
have a control that makes the mic sound worse, at least in certain
respects, however sometimes a mic may benefit from heavier damping,
and that's where it's effective to play with the load impedance if
you can, and want to bother.

[geoff]

mcp6453 wrote:
Why is the output level of an RE20 so low?

Cos it's an old dynamic structure, with a whole bunch of passive filtering
hung off the back end.

geoff

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
mcp6453 wrote:
On 4/17/2010 9:54 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

Kevin is the US rep for Lundahl. He is a really, really good fellow and
I cannot speak highly enough about him or his products.

I'll try to connect with him later this week.

However.... Edcor makes a nice step-up for ten bucks....

The cheapest I can find for a microphone step up (if I picked the right one) is
$24. Do you know the model of the one you're thinking about?

I was thinking the PC10K/600 which is a 4:1 or the PC15K/500 which is a 5:1.
They are $6.37 each according to the website.

They also make the MX5-CS which has a copper shield (still no mu metal
shield, though, for more money and possibly better linearity but a smaller
core so poorer low frequency response at high levels.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
mcp6453 wrote:
On 4/17/2010 9:54 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

However.... Edcor makes a nice step-up for ten bucks.... it's not in the
same league as the Lundahls but I've used it in the past for mike input
stages and it's not half bad. It'll at least let you know if you're on the
right track.

...unless you mean this one.

http://www.edcorusa.com/Products/ShowProduct.aspx?ID=92

I was thinking about the version of that without the nifty little PC board,
but the PC board is handy thing to have.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
Mike Rivers wrote:
On 4/17/2010 8:38 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
The nominal load
for an RE20 is 150 ohms, I assume. The actual input impedance of a Mackie preamp
is 1.3K. While a 5:1 transformer would certainly provide voltage gain, what
about impedances?

Actually, the SOURCE impedance of the mic is 150 ohms,. It actually
wants to be loaded
with something considerably higher. One of the finest mic preamps
around, the Gordon, has
an input impedance of 2 megohms. The mic preamps with variable input
impedance simply
have a control that makes the mic sound worse, at least in certain
respects, however sometimes a mic may benefit from heavier damping, and
that's where it's effective to play with the load impedance if you can,
and want to bother.

The RE-20 probably expects something in the 600 ohm general range, but
it doesn't ring like the SM-57 if it's left unloaded. Part of this is
because the motor system in it is very inefficient so that altering the
load doesn't change the mechanical damping very much.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Roy W. Rising[_2_]]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

The RE-20 probably expects something in the 600 ohm general range, ... .
--scott

Scott ~ I'm curious to understand the basis of your 600 ohm hunch.

When the EV's 'TLM' Research Engineering RE-series mics were introduced,
professional mic preamp inputs were presumed to be "2K or greater", largely
in the interest of not loading ribbon mics. EV founder Lou Burroughs said
a 150 ohm load on an RE15 would reduce it's [bridged] level by 6dB without
affecting response. I wish I'd known enough back then to engage him in a
chat about this topic.

--
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
Roy W. Rising wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

The RE-20 probably expects something in the 600 ohm general range, ... .

Scott ~ I'm curious to understand the basis of your 600 ohm hunch.

When the EV's 'TLM' Research Engineering RE-series mics were introduced,
professional mic preamp inputs were presumed to be "2K or greater", largely
in the interest of not loading ribbon mics. EV founder Lou Burroughs said
a 150 ohm load on an RE15 would reduce it's [bridged] level by 6dB without
affecting response. I wish I'd known enough back then to engage him in a
chat about this topic.

If you put a 150 ohm load on a source and it drops the level by half,
then the source impedance of the device is 150 ohms. That is,
the device acts like a perfect voltage source with 150 ohms in series
with it.

Dynamics tend to be designed to drive a load that is two to four times the
output impedance of the mike. That's kind of a street corner estimate
and not a solid rule, though.

But the low coupling of the RE-20 means that it is happy over a very wide
range of impedances..... which the designers considered more important than
efficiency. I'd tend to agree with them, because the folks at Shure took
the other route with the SM-57 and it's been nothing but trouble over the
years.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Jason Warren]

In article ,
says...
On 4/17/2010 7:51 AM, mcp6453 wrote:
-snip-

Look what I found.

http://tinyurl.com/y4opbr3

For $1000. That seems like a steal.

Take a look at the Zoom R16 - $400.