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#1
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring (specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website (in general, not specifically for these speakers). Is there any real advantage to doing this? -- Andy Barss |
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#2
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
On 3 Mar 2009 22:02:28 GMT, Andrew Barss
wrote: I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring (specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website (in general, not specifically for these speakers). Is there any real advantage to doing this? -- Andy Barss What you are describing is a form of bi-amping, not just bi-wiring. However, the answer is the same in both cases: No real advantage. Kal |
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#3
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
"Andrew Barss" wrote in message
... I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring (specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website (in general, not specifically for these speakers). Is there any real advantage to doing this? No. Most speaker manufacturers who provide bi-wiring terminals do so as to not alienate the reviewers and audionuts who think that Bi-wiring actually makes a difference. |
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#4
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 15:57:43 -0800, Kalman Rubinson wrote
(in article ): On 3 Mar 2009 22:02:28 GMT, Andrew Barss wrote: I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring (specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website (in general, not specifically for these speakers). Is there any real advantage to doing this? -- Andy Barss What you are describing is a form of bi-amping, not just bi-wiring. However, the answer is the same in both cases: No real advantage. Kal Under certain circumstances, bi-amping can be beneficial; like for servo'd subwoofers, etc., but there is no technological advantage to bi-wiring. None at all. Speaker wires not big enough for you? Use bigger cables, it's just as good as doubling-up on the smaller cables - cheaper too. |
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#5
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote: I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring (specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website (in general, not specifically for these speakers). Is there any real advantage to doing this? -- Andy Barss Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs. Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair. Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change whatsoever. I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check. All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do. Greg |
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#6
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
Please note the interpolations.
Please forgive the top-posting. On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote: Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs. Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair. Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change whatsoever. Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be "no change whatsoever". I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check. All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do. I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga. stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no discernable difference. Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
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#7
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations. Please forgive the top-posting. On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote: Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs. Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair. Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change whatsoever. Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be "no change whatsoever". I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check. All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do. I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga. stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no discernable difference. Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable differences? The output of both will be identical in every measurable parameter? That surprises me. Which specific laws of physics are you thinking of and how do they apply here? |
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#8
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:16:01 -0800, Greg Wormald wrote
(in article ): In article , Andrew Barss wrote: I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring (specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website (in general, not specifically for these speakers). Is there any real advantage to doing this? -- Andy Barss Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs. Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair. Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change whatsoever. I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check. All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do. Greg A total waste of time. If you did a double blind test of your Kabers tri-wired and single-cable wired, I'll guarantee you that neither you nor anyone else would be able to detect the slightest difference. |
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#9
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
On Mar 4, 12:16*pm, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations. Please forgive the top-posting. On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote: Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs. Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair. Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change whatsoever. Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be "no change whatsoever". I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check. All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do. I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga. stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no discernable difference. Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid- range/tweeter. emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter. I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but it's there. I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics. Two songs in my music collection which tend to make the effect of bi- wiring most apparent are Erykah Badu's "Other side of the game" and "Shimmer", from Erik and Arvid. On Eryka's song, the bass of this song, the whole album, actually, is stupendously powerful. Eryka's gentle and soulful vocal floats above the smooth and powerfull bottom. When my system was not bi-wired, I would sometimes pick up that Erykah's voice was being modulated by the bass. With bi-wiring, her voice now sails along more effortlessly while the bass continues to thrump strongly. For Erik and Arvid's Shimmer, this song has an incredible strong mid- range synthesizer with a funky and strong bass section. Again, without bi-wiring, there were times that the synthesizer sounded as if it was being modulated by the bass. With bi-wiring, both sections sing independently of each other in full force. CD |
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#10
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
In article ,
Sonnova wrote: On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:16:01 -0800, Greg Wormald wrote (in article ): In article , Andrew Barss wrote: I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring (specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website (in general, not specifically for these speakers). Is there any real advantage to doing this? -- Andy Barss Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs. Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair. Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change whatsoever. I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check. All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do. A total waste of time. If you did a double blind test of your Kabers tri-wired and single-cable wired, I'll guarantee you that neither you nor anyone else would be able to detect the slightest difference. Never noticed a difference with my Kabers, even when adding amps. Going active, OTOH, was major. Stephen |
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#11
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
wrote in message ...
On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote: Please note the interpolations. Please forgive the top-posting. On Mar 4, 10:16 am, Greg Wormald wrote: Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs. Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair. Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change whatsoever. Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be "no change whatsoever". I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check. All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do. I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga. stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no discernable difference. Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable differences? The output of both will be identical in every measurable parameter? That surprises me. Which specific laws of physics are you thinking of and how do they apply here? Superposition. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
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#12
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
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#13
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 16:23:18 -0800, codifus wrote
(in article ): On Mar 4, 12:16*pm, " wrote: Please note the interpolations. Please forgive the top-posting. On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote: Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs. Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair. Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change whatsoever. Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be "no change whatsoever". I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check. All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do. I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga. stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no discernable difference. Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid- range/tweeter. emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter. I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but it's there. I'll just bet it is. I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics. I've tried it on a number of different speakers, heard no difference. |
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#14
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
On Mar 4, 7:23*pm, codifus wrote:
On Mar 4, 12:16*pm, " wrote: Please note the interpolations. Please forgive the top-posting. On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote: Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs. Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair. Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change whatsoever. Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be "no change whatsoever". I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check. All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do. I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga. stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no discernable difference. Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid- range/tweeter. emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter. I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but it's there. I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics. Two songs in my music collection which tend to make the effect of bi- wiring most apparent are Erykah Badu's "Other side of the game" and "Shimmer", from Erik and Arvid. On Eryka's song, the bass of this song, the whole album, actually, is stupendously powerful. Eryka's gentle and soulful vocal floats above the smooth and powerfull bottom. When my system was not bi-wired, I would sometimes pick up that Erykah's voice was being modulated by the bass. With bi-wiring, her voice now sails along more effortlessly while the bass continues to thrump strongly. For Erik and Arvid's Shimmer, this song has an incredible strong mid- range synthesizer with a funky and strong bass section. Again, without bi-wiring, there were times that the synthesizer sounded as if it was being modulated by the bass. With bi-wiring, both sections sing independently of each other in full force. CD- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Those would be very poorly designed speakers in that case. Considering that the only _actual_ separation between the two systems (Woof & Rest) is the jumper at the terminals. What happens inside the box is identical in either case. And in either case the crossover system(s) remain(s) in place and in-use. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
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#15
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:13:15 -0800, MiNe 109 wrote
(in article ): In article , Sonnova wrote: On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:16:01 -0800, Greg Wormald wrote (in article ): In article , Andrew Barss wrote: I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring (specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website (in general, not specifically for these speakers). Is there any real advantage to doing this? -- Andy Barss Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs. Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair. Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change whatsoever. I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check. All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do. A total waste of time. If you did a double blind test of your Kabers tri-wired and single-cable wired, I'll guarantee you that neither you nor anyone else would be able to detect the slightest difference. Never noticed a difference with my Kabers, even when adding amps. Going active, OTOH, was major. Stephen You mean active crossovers? Like between the pre-amp and the power amp(s)? |
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#16
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
On Mar 4, 10:14*pm, Sonnova wrote:
I've tried it on a number of different speakers, heard no difference. Did you try it with different types of music? Like I pointed out earlier, it's the types of music that will more likely bring out bi- wiring's advantages. I've seen your posts and noticed that your taste in music tend to be classical and that you aren't keen on studio recordings. Well, IMO a studio recording has the tendency to more fully test the instantaneous dynamic capability of an audio system than a classical recording ever will. Classical music doesn't invoke the short term dynamic that bi-wiring brings out. I like all types of music; live, studio, classical, hip-hop, reggae etc. Different types of music can make certain capabilities of a system more readily apparent than other types. CD. |
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#17
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
"codifus" wrote in message
... On Mar 4, 12:16 pm, " wrote: The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid- range/tweeter. You should ask yourself - what is the physical impact of back-emfs? They cause the impedance of the drivers to vary with frequency. emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter. That's why there are such things as crossovers. The crossovers for the midrange and tweeter not only isolate them from the large voltage that drives the woofer, but also from the so-called back-emf. I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but it's there. You expected an improvement and your expectations created the perception of an improvement. Or, your original speaker cables were techically inadequate. I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics. There should and are no actual strong effects due to bi-wiring if your speaker cable is adequate to begin with. You would always be better off simply running the second bi-wire cable in parallel with the original cable and forget about bi-wiring. |
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#18
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
On Mar 4, 8:14*pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 14:05:17 -0800, wrote (in article ): On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote: Please note the interpolations. Please forgive the top-posting. On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote: Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs. Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair. Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change whatsoever. Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be "no change whatsoever". I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check. All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do. I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga. stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no discernable difference. Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable differences? That's right, there should be no discernible differences. The only measurable difference see by doubling-up on a speaker run is that the DC resistance (and AC impedance) of the wire will be halved via Rt= 1/ 1/r1+ 1/r2 where r1 and r2 are the resistances of the two parallel runs of wire. However, since, with anything above 16 Ga lamp cord, the single resistance or the doubled-up cable resistance will be quite a bit less than 1 Ohm, its irrelevant. To put it another way, assuming that the speaker looks back down the speaker cable into virtually a dead-short (the "on" resistance of a solid-state amplifier's output stage) the addition of a tenth of an ohm (over 12-15 feet or so of speaker cable) added to a speaker load that varies much more than that over it's own frequency range is going to make no difference whatsoever. If 15 ft of speaker wire has a resistance of 0.6 Ohms (I'm just making the numbers up for illustrative purposes), then doubling it up will reduce that to 0.3 Ohms. A feat which can more easily be accomplished by merely doubling the wire size of a single cable. On the AC side, such mechanizations might have some affect above 50 MHz or so, where skin effect, etc., might come into play, but this is audio; 20 Hz to 20 KHz (or maybe a bit higher). At those frequencies any changes in capacitive or inductive reactance caused by doubling-up the cable will have no affect on the signal and this can easily be shown mathematically. Just use 20 KHz (or 30, or 40) as the maximum frequency and using the inductance and capacitance per foot of the cable to figure the inductive and capacitive reactance. Then plug those into the standard impedance equation and notice the results. The numbers at those frequencies are miniscule and of absolutely no consequence. The output of both will be identical in every measurable parameter? If they are the same make and gauge of wire, and are both exactly the same length, there should be absolutely no difference Kirchoff's law guarantees that. I.E. the total voltage delta in a closed loop will be zero. *That surprises me. Which specific laws of physics are you thinking of and how do they apply here? Ohms law, Kirchoff's law, the effect of impedance over frequency, etc. All first year electronics technician stuff.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Thanks! Saved me the trouble. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
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#19
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
In article ,
Sonnova wrote: Never noticed a difference with my Kabers, even when adding amps. Going active, OTOH, was major. You mean active crossovers? Like between the pre-amp and the power amp(s)? Yes. The subjective reaction was to wonder what was wrong with the passive crossovers. A direct comparison was impractical, of course, so nay-sayers can console themselves that I'm fooling myself. Stephen |
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#20
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
In article ,
Sonnova wrote: On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:16:01 -0800, Greg Wormald wrote (in article ): In article , Andrew Barss wrote: I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring (specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website (in general, not specifically for these speakers). Is there any real advantage to doing this? -- Andy Barss Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs. Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair. Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change whatsoever. I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check. All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do. Greg A total waste of time. If you did a double blind test of your Kabers tri-wired and single-cable wired, I'll guarantee you that neither you nor anyone else would be able to detect the slightest difference. bbbbbzzzzzzztttttttttt Sorry, no prize. My wife could tell the difference she walked into the room--without knowing that I had done anything at all. Please remember that expectations, as well as providing a difference when none exists, can also delete a difference where it does exist. Greg |
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#21
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Bi-wiring?
wrote in message ...
On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote: Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place. For real? Yes. Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable differences? There are always measurable differences! I can measure the difference in the resistance between a wire the same wire as the room temperature varies. The differences, which can be predicted theoretically and also measured, are way too small to matter. The output of both will be identical in every measurable parameter? I repeat, there are always measurable differences! Which specific laws of physics are you thinking of and how do they apply here? An amplifier, speaker cables, and speakers constitute an electrical network. There are a number of laws of physics, such as Ohm's law and Kirchoff's law that are relevant. |
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#22
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Bi-wiring?
On Mar 4, 5:05*pm, wrote:
On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote: Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place. For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable differences? The output of both will be identical in every measurable parameter? He didn't say that, did he? Which specific laws of physics are you thinking of and how do they apply here? Right back at ya, good buddy: which specific laws of physics are YOU thinking of and how to they apply here? (hint: think Ohm, think liner superposition, think Kirchoff, think Thevenin). |
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#23
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Bi-wiring?
On Mar 5, 6:22*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"codifus" wrote in message ... On Mar 4, 12:16 pm, " wrote: The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid- range/tweeter. You should ask yourself - what is the physical impact of back-emfs? They cause the impedance of the drivers to vary with frequency. *emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter. That's why there are such things as crossovers. *The crossovers for the midrange and tweeter not only isolate them from the large voltage that drives the woofer, but also from the so-called back-emf. We've been here before. Of course that's what the circuit is designed to do, and in a perfect world, the circuit would do it.....perfectly. You know that all electrical designs do not behave perfectly, but pretty much perfectly. I think that bi-wiring helps the crossovers to better isolate the woofer's signal from the id-range and tweeter's signal. I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but it's there. You expected an improvement and your expectations created the perception of an improvement. Or, your original speaker cables were techically inadequate. I use relatively fat 12 gauge cables. I don't know if you recall, but in another thread where my speakers kept dying and you had later advised me on how the impedance switch was designed in my Yamaha amplifier. The switch had 2 settings, 6 ohms and above, or 4 ohms and below. I kept the setting at 4 ohms and below, illogically thinking that the amp would drive the speakers harder. After several times of having my speakers blowing their crossovers, I tried it at the other setting and immediately noticed that the amp actually drove the speakers harder in the 6 ohms and above setting. This correlated with how you later described the impedance switch from looking at the service manual. Basically, you said the switch "selects different paris of taps on the secondary winding of the power transformer" etc. Also, I have a Behringer SRC 2496 DAC which is pretty much just sitting there doing nothing. I've listened to it and hate it. I bought it because of all the wonderful mods I've heard on the net that could really bring the SRC to life and make it a credible inexpensive DAC. It turns out that mine was a newer version where practically everything inside was consolidated into 3 or 4 ICs on a board, and therefore un-modifiable. Earlier versions had 2 or 3 boards with capacitors etc which made modding easy. My point is that I don't always believe in every change that I make. I try to keep myself objective. This bi-wiring I believe in, and it makes itself apparent in certain types of music. If you don't listen to that type of music, you may not notice it. I certainly didn't notice it in most of my collection. But in some songs, it is quite apparent. Like I said earlier, music with very strong mid-range and bass power will bring out the effects of bi-wiring. On classical music, I wouldn't really notice, unless someone can suggest some classical music that would fit that criteria. I am more than willing to give it a listen and compare. I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics. There should and are no actual strong effects due to bi-wiring if your speaker cable is adequate to begin with. You would always be better off simply running the second bi-wire cable in parallel with the original cable and forget about bi-wiring. Two sets of 12 gauge cables would seem a bit over-done in my setup  CD |
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#24
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Bi-wiring?
On Mar 5, 9:14*am, Sonnova wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 14:05:17 -0800, wrote (in article ): On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote: Please note the interpolations. Please forgive the top-posting. On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote: Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs. Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair. Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change whatsoever. Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be "no change whatsoever". I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check. All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do. I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga. stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no discernable difference. Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable differences? That's right, there should be no discernible differences. The only measurable difference see by doubling-up on a speaker run is that the DC resistance (and AC impedance) of the wire will be halved via Rt= 1/ 1/r1+ 1/r2 where r1 and r2 are the resistances of the two parallel runs of wire. However, since, with anything above 16 Ga lamp cord, the single resistance or the doubled-up cable resistance will be quite a bit less than 1 Ohm, its irrelevant. To put it another way, assuming that the speaker looks back down the speaker cable into virtually a dead-short (the "on" resistance of a solid-state amplifier's output stage) the addition of a tenth of an ohm (over 12-15 feet or so of speaker cable) added to a speaker load that varies much more than that over it's own frequency range is going to make no difference whatsoever. If 15 ft of speaker wire has a resistance of 0.6 Ohms (I'm just making the numbers up for illustrative purposes), then doubling it up will reduce that to 0.3 Ohms. A feat which can more easily be accomplished by merely doubling the wire size of a single cable. On the AC side, such mechanizations might have some affect above 50 MHz or so, where skin effect, etc., might come into play, but this is audio; 20 Hz to 20 KHz (or maybe a bit higher). At those frequencies any changes in capacitive or inductive reactance caused by doubling-up the cable will have no affect on the signal and this can easily be shown mathematically. Just use 20 KHz (or 30, or 40) as the maximum frequency and using the inductance and capacitance per foot of the cable to figure the inductive and capacitive reactance. Then plug those into the standard impedance equation and notice the results. The numbers at those frequencies are miniscule and of absolutely no consequence. The output of both will be identical in every measurable parameter? If they are the same make and gauge of wire, and are both exactly the same length, there should be absolutely no difference Kirchoff's law guarantees that. I.E. the total voltage delta in a closed loop will be zero. *That surprises me. Which specific laws of physics are you *****ing of and how do they apply here? Ohms law, Kirchoff's law, the effect of impedance over frequency, etc. All first year electronics technician stuff. I am music lover and would like to share observation. I can't tell any difference whatsoever nor any of my so called audiophile friends. Of course I didn't tell them I am doing any blind test. The only aspect of bi-wiring that I hope someone can reply is:- 1) When the woofer moves the coils suppose to generate electricity and it suppose reverse to the amplifier or get filtered or something like that. So when we connect the tweeter and subwoofer or woofer won't this little current affect the tweeter? 2) By bi-wiring there's no "disturbance" in current to tweeter. Is this possible? Regards, Chelvam |
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#25
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Bi-wiring?
On 5 Mar, 07:20, wrote:
On Mar 4, 5:05*pm, wrote: On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote: Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place. For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable differences? The output of both will be identical in every measurable parameter? He didn't say that, did he? In effect he did. Unless you feel measurements are somehow indiscernable. Might want to wipe the mud off the meters if you are having a problem with this sort of thing. Which specific laws of physics are you thinking of and how do they apply here? Right back at ya, good buddy: which specific laws of physics are YOU thinking of and how to they apply here? (hint: think Ohm, think liner superposition, think Kirchoff, think Thevenin). Right back at what good buddy? I didn't make the assertion. It's a pretty simple question. Do the laws of physics tell us that there will be no difference in the signal with bi-wiring or not. You seem to fancy yourself an expert. What is the answer? will there be no difference on your test bench? |
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#26
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Bi-wiring?
codifus wrote:
We've been here before. Of course that's what the circuit is designed to do, and in a perfect world, the circuit would do it.....perfectly. You know that all electrical designs do not behave perfectly, but pretty much perfectly. I think that bi-wiring helps the crossovers to better isolate the woofer's signal from the id-range and tweeter's signal. How does it do that? In other words - exactly what is it that bi-wiring is believed to do, and how? Bob M. |
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#27
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Bi-wiring?
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 07:24:50 -0800, ST wrote
(in article ): [quoted text deleted -- deb] [Moderator's note: All of you need to start doing a much better job of snipping quoted text that does not directly relate to your response, else we will start rejecting wholesale any posts that fail to do it. -- deb ] I am music lover and would like to share observation. I can't tell any difference whatsoever nor any of my so called audiophile friends. Of course I didn't tell them I am doing any blind test. The only aspect of bi-wiring that I hope someone can reply is:- 1) When the woofer moves the coils suppose to generate electricity and it suppose reverse to the amplifier or get filtered or something like that. So when we connect the tweeter and subwoofer or woofer won't this little current affect the tweeter? No. First of all, the back EMF (as this voltage is called) is quite small. Secondly, ostensibly, there is a capacitor in series with both the tweeter and the midrange (if any). The size of the capacitor is calculated to block frequencies below a certain maximum. The purpose of this is to keep low frequency energy (where the power is) from entering the smaller speakers which, generally speaking, cannot handle as much power as the low frequency driver. The second purpose in keeping low frequencies out of the tweeter is to avoid intermodulation distortion by not letting the small tweeter diaphragm move in response to a frequency range over which it can move, but over which it is incapable of producing any sound. By definition, this capacitor will keep back EMF out of the tweeter as well because the back EMF is also at a frequency below the crossover point. 2) By bi-wiring there's no "disturbance" in current to tweeter. Is this possible? Nope. Electrically, they are the same point because they are tied together at the amplifier output terminals. It really doesn't matter whether you tie the tweeter to the amp at the amplifier terminals using two runs of speaker cable, or at the speaker itself using the applied straps between the woofer terminals and the tweeter terminals, it's the same. As I said, there would be no disturbance to the tweeter anyway because that's what the crossover network is for. Regards, Chelvam |
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#28
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Bi-wiring?
"codifus" wrote in message
... On Mar 4, 10:14 pm, Sonnova wrote: I've tried it on a number of different speakers, heard no difference. Did you try it with different types of music? Like I pointed out earlier, it's the types of music that will more likely bring out bi- wiring's advantages. I've seen your posts and noticed that your taste in music tend to be classical and that you aren't keen on studio recordings. Well, IMO a studio recording has the tendency to more fully test the instantaneous dynamic capability of an audio system than a classical recording ever will. Classical music doesn't invoke the short term dynamic that bi-wiring brings out. I like all types of music; live, studio, classical, hip-hop, reggae etc. Different types of music can make certain capabilities of a system more readily apparent than other types. CD. But bi-wiring can't make a difference as the laws of physics don't allow it. So, any ideas that different types of music will show up different capabilities is pure fantasy. If you really believe that you can hear bi-wiring making a difference, can you please suggest a mechanism by which this could be? Please suggest a hypothesis that can be tested. Please suggest some tests by which we can verify independently what you suggest is the case. Otherwise, it's just opinion, with no basis in reality. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
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#29
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Bi-wiring?
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 03:22:08 -0800, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ): "codifus" wrote in message ... On Mar 4, 12:16 pm, " wrote: The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid- range/tweeter. You should ask yourself - what is the physical impact of back-emfs? They cause the impedance of the drivers to vary with frequency. And are blocked from the tweeter by the crossover capacitor, anyway. emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter. That's why there are such things as crossovers. The crossovers for the midrange and tweeter not only isolate them from the large voltage that drives the woofer, but also from the so-called back-emf. Exactly. I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but it's there. You expected an improvement and your expectations created the perception of an improvement. Or, your original speaker cables were techically inadequate. I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics. There should and are no actual strong effects due to bi-wiring if your speaker cable is adequate to begin with. You would always be better off simply running the second bi-wire cable in parallel with the original cable and forget about bi-wiring. Electrically, either is exactly the same. |
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#30
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Bi-wiring?
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 07:24:19 -0800, codifus wrote
(in article ): On Mar 5, 6:22*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "codifus" wrote in message ... On Mar 4, 12:16 pm, " wrote: The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid- range/tweeter. You should ask yourself - what is the physical impact of back-emfs? They cause the impedance of the drivers to vary with frequency. *emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter. That's why there are such things as crossovers. *The crossovers for the midrange and tweeter not only isolate them from the large voltage that drives the woofer, but also from the so-called back-emf. We've been here before. Of course that's what the circuit is designed to do, and in a perfect world, the circuit would do it.....perfectly. You know that all electrical designs do not behave perfectly, but pretty much perfectly. I think that bi-wiring helps the crossovers to better isolate the woofer's signal from the id-range and tweeter's signal. Nonsense! The capacitors in series with the tweeter will not pass a low frequency signal below the crossover point and any "Back EMF" from a low-frequency driver will be below the crossover. The characteristics of LC networks in conjunction with AC signals is well understood as is the interaction of speaker back EMF with amplifier output stages. I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but it's there. You expected an improvement and your expectations created the perception of an improvement. Or, your original speaker cables were techically inadequate. I use relatively fat 12 gauge cables. I don't know if you recall, but in another thread where my speakers kept dying and you had later advised me on how the impedance switch was designed in my Yamaha amplifier. The switch had 2 settings, 6 ohms and above, or 4 ohms and below. I kept the setting at 4 ohms and below, illogically thinking that the amp would drive the speakers harder. After several times of having my speakers blowing their crossovers, I tried it at the other setting and immediately noticed that the amp actually drove the speakers harder in the 6 ohms and above setting. This correlated with how you later described the impedance switch from looking at the service manual. Basically, you said the switch "selects different paris of taps on the secondary winding of the power transformer" etc. Also, I have a Behringer SRC 2496 DAC which is pretty much just sitting there doing nothing. I've listened to it and hate it. I bought it because of all the wonderful mods I've heard on the net that could really bring the SRC to life and make it a credible inexpensive DAC. It turns out that mine was a newer version where practically everything inside was consolidated into 3 or 4 ICs on a board, and therefore un-modifiable. Earlier versions had 2 or 3 boards with capacitors etc which made modding easy. My point is that I don't always believe in every change that I make. I try to keep myself objective. This bi-wiring I believe in, and it makes itself apparent in certain types of music. If you don't listen to that type of music, you may not notice it. I certainly didn't notice it in most of my collection. But in some songs, it is quite apparent. Like I said earlier, music with very strong mid-range and bass power will bring out the effects of bi-wiring. On classical music, I wouldn't really notice, unless someone can suggest some classical music that would fit that criteria. I am more than willing to give it a listen and compare. I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics. There should and are no actual strong effects due to bi-wiring if your speaker cable is adequate to begin with. You would always be better off simply running the second bi-wire cable in parallel with the original cable and forget about bi-wiring. Two sets of 12 gauge cables would seem a bit over-done in my setup Well, it won't hurt anything and probably looks impressive. :-) |
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#31
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Bi-wiring?
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 07:18:33 -0800, MiNe 109 wrote
(in article ): In article , Sonnova wrote: Never noticed a difference with my Kabers, even when adding amps. Going active, OTOH, was major. You mean active crossovers? Like between the pre-amp and the power amp(s)? Yes. The subjective reaction was to wonder what was wrong with the passive crossovers. A direct comparison was impractical, of course, so nay-sayers can console themselves that I'm fooling myself. Stephen Active crossover can have advantages. They can have steeper slopes and flatter turnover points than passive crossovers. Arguably this could make the frequency response of the speaker system flatter, with fewer dips at the crossover frequencies. What one needs to do is weigh the advantages of the active crossover with the disadvantages of adding extra active stages to your signal path. Generally held wisdom says the simpler, the cleaner. I used to use a passive crossover between my pre-amp and my power amplifiers to bi-amp my Magnaplanar MG-3Bs. The beauty of it was it's simplicity. Merely a couple of small capacitors, a couple of resistors and two pots (to match the gains of the two different power amplifiers: tubes on the midrange panels/ribbon tweeters and solid-state on the bass panels.). My thinking was that a solid-state amp with its superior damping factor, would better control the bass while the tube amps would give me the creamy midrange and sweet, open highs characteristic of tubes. Frankly I really don't know whether I gained anything or not, but that was the system, it worked well and the speakers sounded fine, so I left it that way. I do not bi-amp my current Martin-Logans, however. |
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#32
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Bi-wiring?
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#33
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Bi-wiring?
Please note the interpolations.
Please forgive the top-posting. On Mar 5, 10:24*am, ST wrote: I am music lover and would like to share observation. I can't tell any difference whatsoever nor any of my so called audiophile friends. Of course I didn't tell them I am doing any blind test. The only aspect of bi-wiring that I hope someone can reply is:- 1) When the woofer moves the coils suppose to generate electricity and it suppose reverse to the amplifier or get filtered or something like that. So when we connect the tweeter and subwoofer or woofer won't this little current affect the tweeter? Note: We are discussing Bi-WIRING - not Bi-Amping. So, instead of a small jumper on the back of the speaker between the two sections, you now have a rather longer, thicker jumper connected at the amp terminals. Electrically the same as far as the speaker can perceive. 2) *By bi-wiring there's no "disturbance" in current to tweeter. No *discernable* difference in what the tweeter sees between bi-wiring and single-wiring assuming adequate gauge wire and clean, tight connections in both cases. Is this possible? Not as you define the problem. Bi-Amping will isolate the two sections of the speaker. But not Bi-Wiring. Of course, bi-amping raises the question as to whether four cables will now be required.... Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
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#34
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Bi-wiring?
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 03:21:58 -0800, codifus wrote
(in article ): On Mar 4, 10:14*pm, Sonnova wrote: I've tried it on a number of different speakers, heard no difference. Did you try it with different types of music? Like I pointed out earlier, it's the types of music that will more likely bring out bi- wiring's advantages. I've seen your posts and noticed that your taste in music tend to be classical and that you aren't keen on studio recordings. This is audio mythology. It's right up there with ceramic and foam "lifts" to keep the speaker cables off the floor, myrtle wood blocks, magic clocks, and $4000 speaker cables. There is NOTHING to be gained by bi-wiring, it does NOTHING. If you think you hear a difference, its because you went to the trouble to install a second cable run. You WANT to hear an improvement in your sound, so your mind provides it. That's the danger of sighted evaluations. You will hear what you want to hear. Believe me, in a blind A-B test, you would not be able to tell the difference between a pair of bi-wired speakers and an identical pair NOT bi-wired. Well, IMO a studio recording has the tendency to more fully test the instantaneous dynamic capability of an audio system than a classical recording ever will. Classical music doesn't invoke the short term dynamic that bi-wiring brings out. That's because it doesn't exist. It CAN'T exist. There is no electrical theory that could possibly account for such a phenomenon. I like all types of music; live, studio, classical, hip-hop, reggae etc. Different types of music can make certain capabilities of a system more readily apparent than other types. Especially when you want to hear such differences. Look, I'm not saying this to rain on anybody's parade, I'm merely telling you that any differences that you think you hear with bi-wiring are all illusions. There are no laws of electrical physics that apply and when it comes to wire, believe me, the subject has pretty well been researched to death. There are no unknowns. Wire is the backbone of the world's information infrastructure. There are billions of miles of it all over the world. It's properties, at all frequencies, with all types of signals has been characterized for the last 150 years. We know everything there is to know about how wire behaves with any kind of signal, over any distance that you can imagine. I spent more than three years studying and experimenting with different kinds of wire to be used in aerospace in the Lockheed cable lab. So you can believe me when I say that bi-wiring is a myth, so are expensive speaker cables and expensive interconnects. The only thing about interconnects that you need concern yourself about is that the cable is constructed so that the shield does not carry any signal (called quasi-balanced. Interconnects that are designed this way can be identified because they usually have an arrow on them somewhere denoting direction. This is because the shield is connected to the RCA plug's "barrel" on one end, but not on the other. This arrow denotes which end the shield is connected to (arrow points away from the shield connection), not the direction of signal "flow". All shields should terminate at one common point (which would be the pre-amp or integrated amp) for lowest noise). The only other consideration should be build quality. Cheap cables invite problems down the line. Good quality interconnects should last indefinitely and shouldn't cost more than about $30-$50 for a 1 meter pair. As for speaker cable, any speaker cable of sufficient size should fill the bill nicely. Something like the clear-jacketed Monster is fine, but like interconnects, good speaker connections insure reliability. So perhaps something like the *Monster Z1 with factory applied banana plug terminations at $2.50/ft or so isn't a bad investment. Again, the point is, with wire, the terminations and build quality are FAR more important than the wire itself. Wire is wire. If it is of sufficient gauge to carry the current required (IOW, 16 Ga or larger for most domestic installations of 20 ft or less), it is adequate End of story. *I'm not specifically recommending Monster cable or any other brand. I used Monster as an example only. Brand doesn't matter. All speaker wire sounds the same. There is no way that it couldn't. |
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#35
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Bi-wiring?
Greg Wormald wrote:
In article , Sonnova wrote: On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:16:01 -0800, Greg Wormald wrote (in article ): In article , Andrew Barss wrote: I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring (specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website (in general, not specifically for these speakers). Is there any real advantage to doing this? -- Andy Barss Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs. Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair. Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change whatsoever. I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check. All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do. Greg A total waste of time. If you did a double blind test of your Kabers tri-wired and single-cable wired, I'll guarantee you that neither you nor anyone else would be able to detect the slightest difference. bbbbbzzzzzzztttttttttt Sorry, no prize. My wife could tell the difference she walked into the room--without knowing that I had done anything at all. bbbbzzzttt. Not a valid control. Please remember that expectations, as well as providing a difference when none exists, can also delete a difference where it does exist. Remember above all that sighted comparisons, aren't usually sources of good data, particualrly when there is no technically valid reason for 'biwiring' to work. -- -S We have it in our power to begin the world over again - Thomas Paine |
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#36
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Bi-wiring?
On Mar 5, 10:24*am, ST wrote:
I am music lover and would like to share observation. I can't tell any difference whatsoever nor any of my so called audiophile friends. Of course I didn't tell them I am doing any blind test. The only aspect of bi-wiring that I hope someone can reply is:- 1) When the woofer moves the coils suppose to generate electricity and it suppose reverse to the amplifier or get filtered or something like that. Yeah, or something like that, but not. So when we connect the tweeter and subwoofer or woofer won't this little current affect the tweeter? No. Why would it There are a several reasons why it won't: 1. Let's take your little voltage "generator" model: That voltage generated by the voice coil is isolated from the rest of the system FIRST by the series DC resistance of the voice coil. In the non-biwiring case, it's a short hop over to the tweeter, where there's already a pretty hefty filter to prevent this stuff from getting through. But, as importantly, there's also a near dead short to ground: the output impedance of the amplifier. Let's follow the tortured path of the signal. Assume speaker leads are 10 feet of 16 gauge standard copper zip cord. That's 0.08 ohms resistance. Now assume the amplifier has a modest, but not atypical output impedance at low frequencies of, oh, 0.16 ohms (a "damping factor" of 50). And lastly, assume a 7 ohm resistance in the woofer voice coil. IN the non-biwrired case, the "generator voltage" you hypothesize will be attenuated by the series attenuator formed by the DC resistance and the combination of the speaker lead and amplifier resistance, e.g.: G = (0.08+0.16)/(0.08+0.16+7) Which works out to 30 dB. And THAT voltage is further attenuated by the tweeter crossover. Assume the tweeter crosses over at 2000 Hz with a 12 dB/octave slope, and the woofer system resonance (the point at which your "generator voltage" is at its max) is 50 Hz. That tweeter crossover then further attenuates you "little generator voltage by a further 70 dB, for a total attenuation of about 100 dB by the time it reaches the tweeter. So let's bi-wire using the same wire. Now, the attenuation at the point where the tweeter and woofer can talk to each other has merely been moved from the speaker to the amplifer: the connection is still there, just with the resistances in a slightly different position. In the bi-wire case, the attenuation is now: G = (0.16)/(0.16+0.24+7) or 33 dB. Add to that the same 70 dB of crossover attenuation, and you now get 103 dB. Can you show that the level difference at the tweeter of a 50 Hz signal that's 100 dB vs 103 dB down is discernable? 2. GO bone up on the good Mr. Thevenin. When you've done that, you can show that, at resonance, the point where the back EMF voltage is at its maximum, the load presented to the amplifier looks like a pure resistor: Thevenin's theorem states, in such a case that there is no difference between an 8 ohm voice coil with a back-EMF behind it equal to 3/4 of the impressed amplifier voltage, and a 32 ohm resistor with no generator (a very typical impedance of a woofer at resonance). Unless you are ready to prove Mr. Thevenin wrong, why would you expec a 32 ohm load to benefit from bi-wiring (hint: it doesn't). 3. Take the example worked on in point #1: replace the 16 gauge wire in the non bi-wired case with 12 gauge wire. Just that alone will give you 102 dB of total attenuation. 2) *By bi-wiring there's no "disturbance" in current to tweeter. Is this possible? It can be shown that it does not have the effect claimed by the proponents of biwiring. |
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#37
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
On Mar 5, 3:17*pm, "Serge Auckland"
wrote: "codifus" wrote in message ... On Mar 4, 10:14 pm, Sonnova wrote: I've tried it on a number of different speakers, heard no difference. Did you try it with different types of music? Like I pointed out earlier, it's the types of music that will more likely bring out bi- wiring's advantages. I've seen your posts and noticed that your taste in music tend to be classical and that you aren't keen on studio recordings. Well, IMO a studio recording has the tendency to more fully test the instantaneous dynamic capability of an audio system than a classical recording ever will. Classical music doesn't invoke the short term dynamic that bi-wiring brings out. I like all types of music; live, studio, classical, hip-hop, reggae etc. Different types of music can make certain capabilities of a system more readily apparent than other types. CD. But bi-wiring can't make a difference as the laws of physics don't allow it. So, any ideas that different types of music will show up different capabilities is pure fantasy. Really? OK. So, every capacitor, inductor, resistor etc in an electrical circuit behaves perfectly, as defined by the laws of physics? No, of course not. Capacitors have resistance, inductors have capicatance and so forth. It goes to follow that circuits built from these imperfect components won't behave perfectly, just more or less perfectly. ------Quite oxymoronic, that last statement, don't you think? You resort to the laws of physics which is fine for a textbook case, which this isn't. If you really believe that you can hear bi-wiring making a difference, can you please suggest a mechanism by which this could be? Please suggest a hypothesis that can be tested. Please suggest some tests by which we can verify independently what you suggest is the case. Otherwise, it's just opinion, with no basis in reality. I don't recall ever saying it was fact. Just that I observed it, and believe it. As for tests, I did suggests types of music which would make the effects of bi-wiring more apparent. I can't give you everything you want EXACTLY as you want it, but I sure did try. S. --http://audiopages.googlepages.com CD |
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#38
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
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#39
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
On Mar 5, 7:44*pm, dave a wrote:
wrote: * * Can you show that the level difference at the tweeter * * of a 50 Hz signal that's 100 dB vs 103 dB down is * * discernable? So you're saying that the 50 Hz signal is twice as loud and you can't tell the difference? *:-) A cute reply, thanks, but it leads to one more step. It might be instructive to see what the real effect ends up being. Let's say we're playing along at a pretty hefty SPL of, oh, 90 dB. First, that "little generator signal" results in effect in a signal that's 10 dB vs 13 dB BELOW the best-case threshold of hearing. Second, the DIFFERENCE between that -100 vs -103 dB extraneous added BELOW the 90 dB signal means the difference in SPL of 90.000086 vs 90.000061 dB SPL.. That's indiscernable by ANY means other than silly speculation. |
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#40
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Bi-wiring?
On Mar 5, 6:07*pm, codifus wrote:
On Mar 5, 3:17*pm, "Serge Auckland" But bi-wiring can't make a difference as the laws of physics don't allow it. So, any ideas that different types of music will show up different capabilities is pure fantasy. Really? OK. So, every capacitor, inductor, resistor etc in an electrical circuit behaves perfectly, as defined by the laws of physics? No, of course not. Sorry, the most assuredly are. Capacitors have resistance, inductors have capicatance and so forth. All of which are very well understood and work perfectly fine within the laws of physics. Can you explain your rather absurd claim they don't? It goes to follow that circuits built from these imperfect components won't behave perfectly, just more or less perfectly. And EXTREMELY predictably, I would add. You resort to the laws of physics which is fine for a textbook case, which this isn't. Nonsense. Where on earth do you come up with the absurd notion that non-ideal components are exempt from the laws of physics, which is, in essence, what you claim? In fact, non-ideal components follow physics quite nicely and, in fact, are QUITE well understood exactly in the context of physics. The fact that YOU might not understand this is not a situation that can be extrapolated to the rest of the world, fortunately. Every reasonable physics textbook I've come across deals quite well with non-ideal components and their behavior under real-world situations. Perhaps you need new physics textbooks. Or maybe you don''t have any. |
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