[Chevdo[_2_]]

So I was needing a refresher on certain mastering topic, so I headed over to
the Ultimate Authority On Anything About Mastering, the website of Bob Katz.
Bob Katz used to post to this group, a long time ago, long before I
encountered the sad aftermath of his excellence here. He doesn't post anymore,
probably because everyone halfway normal has deserted usenet, and rec.audio.pro
is no exception. The handful of so-called 'reliable experts' who remain happen
to be people who were reading the group back when Bob Katz was here teaching
them everything he knows, or knew, back then. And they've been regurgitating
it ever since, much to Chevdo's chagrin a few years ago. Ever since Katz left
the group, this handful of rejects have jockeyed amongst themselves for the
position of 'group expert' that Katz vacated. They don't argue a whole lot
amonst themselves though, not because of any personal affinity (contrary to my
previous assumption: before I learned the history of this group I assumed there
was some kind of weird cronyism going on here), but because everything they
learned was from Katz, and its hard to argue fact, as they learned in their
many losing flame-wars with Katz.

Now, one of the things, if not the main gospel of this group over the past
decade has been the consensus over the 'loudness wars'. The rec.audio.pro
consensus has been canonized, essentially verbatim, on Bob Katz' site in his
audioFAQ section under "Loundess Race Discussed". Naturally, since all the
think-they-know-it-alls who still frequent rec.audio.pro, learned long ago
through trial and flame war, to bow down to all that is Katz. So for many
years, a militant anti-loudness position has been parroted on this group, with
the venerable Katz FAQ to back it up.

But I suspect that while Mr. Katz no longer posts to rec.audio.pro, he still
lurks and reads the discussion from time to time, particularly on topics that
interest him. And I suspect the 'loudness wars' is a topic that interests him.
That's because his AudioFAQ now has a new entry on the loudness wars, under
the title "Loud CD's: What's Your Feeling, Bob? (and references to sites about
the issue) ". Unfortunately the references are to articles supporting or at
least explaining the anti-loudness position, even though the new FAQ entry
depicts a marked softening of Bob's position since his original treatise on the
subject. That's ok though, because even though I think Bob's reading of my
posts here was responsible for the impact on his drastic change of opinion, I'm
not claiming to be vindicated because I think I changed Katz mind, but rather,
because Katz and I now seem to harbor a very similar opinion, regardless of how
Katz managed to catch up to me.

In his new FAQ entry, Katz is no longer fighting against loudness without
compromise, he says he'll make the CD loud if the client wants it loud, after
he is convinced that his client understands the trade-off between loudness and
fidelity. But here's the real gem: "I feel that the "loud CD" that I will make
for you will contain much excitement, impact and dynamics because I'll put all
my skill and experience into making it." Not only is Katz finally prepared to
master a 'loud cd', he's boldly claiming that his loud CDs could be better than
the competition's loud cds! That's exactly what I said about my confidence in
my ability in my contributions to the loudness discussion on rec.audio.pro
several years ago. Will either Katz or myself try to produce the loudest CD on
the market? Of course not, in fact, we know that to 'win' the loudness war, a
compromise must be met. Rather than master to the current 'loud standard',
we'll master a couple dB lower, because even if we do manage to produce a
distortion-free high-mark in loudness standards, enough anti-loudness
crusaders, or simply snobs who have read about the loudness war, will hate it
just for being so loud, that it doesn't make good marketing sense
to do that (and besides, while Katz may have access to the kind of
state-of-the-art equipment necessary to set new high-loudness/minimal
distortion standards, I don't). But we're certainly not going to retreat to
1990 levels either, which is what Katz was suggesting up until at least 2007
(perhaps only until he found time to update his website FAQ). Katz now
realizes that he can make hotter recordings now than he did in 1990 which
retain the same fidelity, because technology and his skill have improved since
then. But trying to make the hottest CD is an idiots game, and always has
been. Regardless of the zeitgeist of any era, the goal should be to master hot
enough that your recording doesn't sound wimpy when put on rotation in a 5-disc
CD player with four of the latest charting hits, and doesn't try to out-muscle
them either. The last thing you want to happen is for the consumer to reach
for the volume dial when your album comes on, whether it's to turn it down or
to turn it up.

"It is the brave person who knows he's right in the face of adversity." - Bob
Katz

It sure is, Bob, it sure is. And there's always plenty of that kind of
adversity for the bravely correct to face on rec.audio.parrot!

[[email protected]]

On Nov 19, 6:42 am, (Chevdo) wrote:
So I was needing a refresher on certain mastering topic, so I headed over to
the Ultimate Authority On Anything About Mastering, the website of Bob Katz.
Bob Katz used to post to this group, a long time ago, long before I
encountered the sad aftermath of his excellence here. He doesn't post anymore,
probably because everyone halfway normal has deserted usenet, and rec.audio.pro
is no exception. The handful of so-called 'reliable experts' who remain happen
to be people who were reading the group back when Bob Katz was here teaching
them everything he knows, or knew, back then. And they've been regurgitating
it ever since, much to Chevdo's chagrin a few years ago. Ever since Katz left
the group, this handful of rejects have jockeyed amongst themselves for the
position of 'group expert' that Katz vacated. They don't argue a whole lot
amonst themselves though, not because of any personal affinity (contrary to my
previous assumption: before I learned the history of this group I assumed there
was some kind of weird cronyism going on here), but because everything they
learned was from Katz, and its hard to argue fact, as they learned in their
many losing flame-wars with Katz.

Now, one of the things, if not the main gospel of this group over the past
decade has been the consensus over the 'loudness wars'. The rec.audio.pro
consensus has been canonized, essentially verbatim, on Bob Katz' site in his
audioFAQ section under "Loundess Race Discussed". Naturally, since all the
think-they-know-it-alls who still frequent rec.audio.pro, learned long ago
through trial and flame war, to bow down to all that is Katz. So for many
years, a militant anti-loudness position has been parroted on this group, with
the venerable Katz FAQ to back it up.

But I suspect that while Mr. Katz no longer posts to rec.audio.pro, he still
lurks and reads the discussion from time to time, particularly on topics that
interest him. And I suspect the 'loudness wars' is a topic that interests him.
That's because his AudioFAQ now has a new entry on the loudness wars, under
the title "Loud CD's: What's Your Feeling, Bob? (and references to sites about
the issue) ". Unfortunately the references are to articles supporting or at
least explaining the anti-loudness position, even though the new FAQ entry
depicts a marked softening of Bob's position since his original treatise on the
subject. That's ok though, because even though I think Bob's reading of my
posts here was responsible for the impact on his drastic change of opinion, I'm
not claiming to be vindicated because I think I changed Katz mind, but rather,
because Katz and I now seem to harbor a very similar opinion, regardless of how
Katz managed to catch up to me.

In his new FAQ entry, Katz is no longer fighting against loudness without
compromise, he says he'll make the CD loud if the client wants it loud, after
he is convinced that his client understands the trade-off between loudness and
fidelity. But here's the real gem: "I feel that the "loud CD" that I will make
for you will contain much excitement, impact and dynamics because I'll put all
my skill and experience into making it." Not only is Katz finally prepared to
master a 'loud cd', he's boldly claiming that his loud CDs could be better than
the competition's loud cds! That's exactly what I said about my confidence in
my ability in my contributions to the loudness discussion on rec.audio.pro
several years ago. Will either Katz or myself try to produce the loudest CD on
the market? Of course not, in fact, we know that to 'win' the loudness war, a
compromise must be met. Rather than master to the current 'loud standard',
we'll master a couple dB lower, because even if we do manage to produce a
distortion-free high-mark in loudness standards, enough anti-loudness
crusaders, or simply snobs who have read about the loudness war, will hate it
just for being so loud, that it doesn't make good marketing sense
to do that (and besides, while Katz may have access to the kind of
state-of-the-art equipment necessary to set new high-loudness/minimal
distortion standards, I don't). But we're certainly not going to retreat to
1990 levels either, which is what Katz was suggesting up until at least 2007
(perhaps only until he found time to update his website FAQ). Katz now
realizes that he can make hotter recordings now than he did in 1990 which
retain the same fidelity, because technology and his skill have improved since
then. But trying to make the hottest CD is an idiots game, and always has
been. Regardless of the zeitgeist of any era, the goal should be to master hot
enough that your recording doesn't sound wimpy when put on rotation in a 5-disc
CD player with four of the latest charting hits, and doesn't try to out-muscle
them either. The last thing you want to happen is for the consumer to reach
for the volume dial when your album comes on, whether it's to turn it down or
to turn it up.

"It is the brave person who knows he's right in the face of adversity." - Bob
Katz

It sure is, Bob, it sure is. And there's always plenty of that kind of
adversity for the bravely correct to face on rec.audio.parrot!

CheeseBall

did you also read that he had a heart attack??
There is rumor that it happen from doing too many LOUD masterings.

[Randy Yates]

writes:
[...]
did you also read that he had a heart attack??

What? Bob Katz is mortal after all?!?
--
% Randy Yates % "How's life on earth?
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % ... What is it worth?"
%%% 919-577-9882 % 'Mission (A World Record)',
%%%% % *A New World Record*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

[Sean Conolly]

Dude - back away from the glass pipe!

Sean