[liquidator[_2_]]

"Ron Johnson" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote in
message

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Sigh. Find a basic DC coupled design and drive it *very*
hard - we're talking severe overload here - and look at
the output. It will approach the power rails.

That's what saturated output devices do.

Indeed.

It'll be virtually a square wave with almost twice the
sinewave power of the amp but not 'DC' though.

As far as the speaker coil is concerned it might as well just be. And if
you measure the signal with an analogue meter DC is what you'll see.

Right, there will be a sort of sloppy square wave whose spectral
content
will depend on the waveform driving the amplifier.

Agreed.

The peak amplitude will be the rail voltages (which will have sagged if
there is a significant load), minus the saturation voltage of the
output
devices. If you look closely, there may be some funny stuff where the
output stages snap out of saturation.

This square wave will of course have more energy in it than a sine wave
with a similar peak amplitude.

Of course you could argue about what practical DC is. Most will have
some
form of ripple etc.


I`m getting a terrible sense of DejaVu about this thread



Yeah, it's been hashed a dozen times, clipping ain't DC, and people with
high levels of knowledge don't say it is.

Just salesmen and and fader jocks. Not real engineers.

In practice, the severely clipped amp won't do a perfect square wave, it
will sag. so the "virtual DC" argument falls flat on it's face...most supply
rails do not have enough storage to sustain a full square wave...some of the
real heavy old iron may.

But I don't talk about old amps to make a point, nobody uses them any more.

[liquidator[_2_]]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Arny Krueger wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Sigh. Find a basic DC coupled design and drive it *very*
hard - we're talking severe overload here - and look at
the output. It will approach the power rails.

That's what saturated output devices do.

Depends what you call saturate. It'll clip even if anti-saturation
measures such
as a Baker Clamp are used.


It'll be virtually a square wave with almost twice the
sinewave power of the amp but not 'DC' though.

Right, there will be a sort of sloppy square wave whose spectral content
will depend on the waveform driving the amplifier.

Yeah. Might conceivably be a bit asymettrical but probably not to a large
degree.


The peak amplitude will be the rail voltages (which will have sagged if
there is a significant load), minus the saturation voltage of the output
devices. If you look closely, there may be some funny stuff where the
output stages snap out of saturation.

Base charge storage. That's what the Baker Clamp stops.


This square wave will of course have more energy in it than a sine wave
with
a similar peak amplitude.

Around twice.



Arny and I agree?

Chicken Little was right...

I argue how close it is to virtual DC though.

I certainly don't feel it fits the definition.

[liquidator[_2_]]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

I got to say Jamie compared to you Eyesore is a Rhodes scholar, I havn't
seen anything but pure rubbish from you

and before you go off again like the noon bell at 11:17
there isno love lost between eyesore and myself
George

Thank you for the endorsement George. I recall we got on fine when I first
joined this group. For fear of provoking any further discord I'll avoid
mentioning the name of a certain person who helped upset that.

I was serious about you asking Jim Savery about the solder used by
Behringer
for N.A. destined products btw. If you're too busy, could you remind me of
his
contact details, email whatever and I'll enquire myself ?



Hey, you and I still have our words...but wouldn't it be friggin' boring if
everybody in th world agree on vanilla ice cream?

But different folks can find common ground. I got no quarrel with guys who
prefer blondes for instance...leaves more redheads for me...

[liquidator[_2_]]

"Meat Plow" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:00:32 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

Maynard is mentally defective as hell.

My irony meter just vaporized.

Used to be a stock scene in old Science fiction movies...all the meters go
into overload...someone yells out "Turn back you fool!"

Then the Earth explodes/a dimensional gate opens/a guy is mutated into a
nasty creature...(insert other options here).

[George's Pro Sound Company]

"liquidator" wrote in message
...

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

I got to say Jamie compared to you Eyesore is a Rhodes scholar, I
havn't
seen anything but pure rubbish from you

and before you go off again like the noon bell at 11:17
there isno love lost between eyesore and myself
George

Thank you for the endorsement George. I recall we got on fine when I
first
joined this group. For fear of provoking any further discord I'll avoid
mentioning the name of a certain person who helped upset that.

I was serious about you asking Jim Savery about the solder used by
Behringer
for N.A. destined products btw. If you're too busy, could you remind me
of
his
contact details, email whatever and I'll enquire myself ?



Hey, you and I still have our words...but wouldn't it be friggin' boring
if
everybody in th world agree on vanilla ice cream?

But different folks can find common ground. I got no quarrel with guys who
prefer blondes for instance...leaves more redheads for me...


All behringer product I have seen in "a long time" has been lead
free/compliant with the new standards

[Arny Krueger]

"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Sigh. Find a basic DC coupled design and drive it
*very* hard - we're talking severe overload here - and
look at the output. It will approach the power rails.

That's what saturated output devices do.

Depends what you call saturate. It'll clip even if
anti-saturation measures such as a Baker Clamp are used.

It'll be virtually a square wave with almost twice the
sinewave power of the amp but not 'DC' though.

Right, there will be a sort of sloppy square wave whose
spectral content will depend on the waveform driving the
amplifier.

Yeah. Might conceivably be a bit asymettrical but
probably not to a large degree.

YMMV.

The peak amplitude will be the rail voltages (which will
have sagged if there is a significant load), minus the
saturation voltage of the output devices. If you look
closely, there may be some funny stuff where the output
stages snap out of saturation.

Base charge storage. That's what the Baker Clamp stops.

Interesting page:

http://home.mira.net/~gnb/audio/lme49810.html

This square wave will of course have more energy in it
than a sine wave with a similar peak amplitude.

Around twice.

IOW, close to the energy content of DC, just with the polarity reversing
from time to time.

[Eeyore]

Meat Plow wrote:

**** off you bloated bag of gas.

Did you understand that?

I'm sure he understood it but King George won't like it one bit. He's a wee bit
temperamental, you know.

He also claims that MDF cabinets are crap despite buying them himself for his 'B
rigs'.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Meat Plow wrote:

"Phil Allison" wrote:

Maynard is mentally defective as hell.

My irony meter just vaporized.

They should get engaged. ;~)

Graham

[Eeyore]

Meat Plow wrote:

I'll give you one credit however, you
rec.audio.tech/alt.audio.pro.live-sound ****heads breath a little
life into s.e.r.

It's been an interesting combination and as I've said, completely on topic for
all. It's given me a chuckle too to see what the techs think of what Assilon
calls 'fader jockeys'. And then there's Jamie. He's in his own league.

Graham

[Eeyore]

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

"Meat Plow" wrote

I'll give you one credit however, you
rec.audio.tech/alt.audio.pro.live-sound ****heads breath a little
life into s.e.r.

wish we could say the same for the s.e.r merkins
George

Do you fix your own gear Your Highness ?

Graham

[Eeyore]

liquidator wrote:

Been bitching at Graham to stop this **** for probably a year.

I ONLY crosspost when it's on topic for all the groups as per netiquette
standards. Which it clearly was here.

In fact I normally trim groups more than anything, except you don't see that
of course.

Graham

[Eeyore]

liquidator wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote

Still saw enough of them in amp racks. Usually with a pair of Boxer fans
blowing on the heatsinks.

Most I ever counted was a festival system, 72 Phase 400's in racks. Not mine
of course, we had two systems, both together were less than half that.

I think we owned about 36, generally 6 on the bench, 6 as spares, 24 in
actual use.

But they were cheaper, lighter, and sounded better than Crowns.

Crowns of that era always sounded gritty to me and had no better heatsinks
either. Never bothered with them then or since. Well especially as I 'roll my
own' these days !

Several UK companies like RSD/Studiomaster and Turner realised the heatsinking
problem and dealt with it. We had a Turner in my rig for a while. Sounded fine
too. It was driving mids (Philishave lookalikes - home made).

Graham

[Eeyore]

liquidator wrote:

But I don't talk about old amps to make a point, nobody uses them any more.

Can't afford the fuel to carry them !

Graham

[Eeyore]

liquidator wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Sigh. Find a basic DC coupled design and drive it *very*
hard - we're talking severe overload here - and look at
the output. It will approach the power rails.

That's what saturated output devices do.

Depends what you call saturate. It'll clip even if anti-saturation
measures such as a Baker Clamp are used.

It'll be virtually a square wave with almost twice the
sinewave power of the amp but not 'DC' though.

Right, there will be a sort of sloppy square wave whose spectral content
will depend on the waveform driving the amplifier.

Yeah. Might conceivably be a bit asymettrical but probably not to a large
degree.

The peak amplitude will be the rail voltages (which will have sagged if
there is a significant load), minus the saturation voltage of the output
devices. If you look closely, there may be some funny stuff where the
output stages snap out of saturation.

Base charge storage. That's what the Baker Clamp stops.

This square wave will of course have more energy in it than a sine wave
with a similar peak amplitude.

Around twice.

Arny and I agree?

Chicken Little was right...

I argue how close it is to virtual DC though.

I certainly don't feel it fits the definition.

It's AC not DC ! Damn, they were on the week before last. 8 Nov.
http://thehorn.co.uk/ click on "What's On" then full listings. Not bad either.
Oh and I could tell you a tale about that evening too ....!

Graham

[Eeyore]

liquidator wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

I got to say Jamie compared to you Eyesore is a Rhodes scholar, I havn't
seen anything but pure rubbish from you

and before you go off again like the noon bell at 11:17
there isno love lost between eyesore and myself
George

Thank you for the endorsement George. I recall we got on fine when I first
joined this group. For fear of provoking any further discord I'll avoid
mentioning the name of a certain person who helped upset that.

I was serious about you asking Jim Savery about the solder used by
Behringer for N.A. destined products btw. If you're too busy, could you
remind me of
his contact details, email whatever and I'll enquire myself ?

Hey, you and I still have our words...but wouldn't it be friggin' boring if
everybody in th world agree on vanilla ice cream?

Totally agree. Had a chat about that on Sat in fact.


But different folks can find common ground. I got no quarrel with guys who
prefer blondes for instance...leaves more redheads for me...

Don't you DARE get near MY redheads ! Actually haven't seen many in ages but I
can spot them at a fair distance.

Anna was so stunning that - this has never happened before to me or since - my
legs would physically go weak.

I gave her a life home once (with her almost as perfect redhead friend Fiona).
As she left, she gave me a kiss on the neck that felt like sucking and blowing
at the same time. How DO they do it ?

Graham

[Eeyore]

liquidator wrote:

"Meat Plow" wrote
"Phil Allison" wrote:

Maynard is mentally defective as hell.

My irony meter just vaporized.

Used to be a stock scene in old Science fiction movies...all the meters go
into overload...someone yells out "Turn back you fool!"

Then the Earth explodes/a dimensional gate opens/a guy is mutated into a
nasty creature...(insert other options here).

I caught the tail end of Alien vs Predator the other night. Boring really.

But then there's 'The Forbidden Planet'. It can still make my flesh tingle.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Arny Krueger wrote:

The peak amplitude will be the rail voltages (which will
have sagged if there is a significant load), minus the
saturation voltage of the output devices. If you look
closely, there may be some funny stuff where the output
stages snap out of saturation.

Base charge storage. That's what the Baker Clamp stops.

Interesting page:

http://home.mira.net/~gnb/audio/lme49810.html

Well fancy that ! Nat Semi do make some of the best integrated audio amps.
See Gainclone for example. Although this is only a driver.

Graham

[Jamie[_2_]]

Ron Johnson wrote:

Eeyore wrote:


liquidator wrote:

"Jamie" t wrote in
message

Any one have some hip boots ? my normal boots aren't tall enough!

Jeez- another idiot to killfiter- where are you pointing out what I
said was
wrong?


Jamie is notorious (with me at least) for having some very odd ideas
sometimes
in the electronics groups. I think he's a little bit out of touch with
current
practice in this area.

Graham

See! this is what happens when you crosspost - you get the idiots from
other groups polluting all the groups.

The blind leading the blind...

its become common plase these days..

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

[Eeyore]

Jamie wrote:

The blind leading the blind...

You're certainly blind as well as dumb.

Graham

[Jamie[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:


Jamie wrote:


Eeyore wrote:

Jamie wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

liquidator wrote:

"Jamie" wrote in message


Btw, distortion due to amplifier saturation,

What is this "amplifier saturation" you talk of ? Please use accepted
terminology.


even though the amp is
far belong the rating of the speaker can and does over heat the speaker
coil and thus, can terminate the life of a speaker even rated higher
than said amp.

Ahnothetr person with minimal knowledge.

This is my experience of Jamie too. He reckons he's some hot shot but constantly
uses the wrong words to describe things for example. His knowledge is also very
dated.

Graham, you play with toys.. you work with toys.. and as usual,
all you have left is finger pointing because you've lost what ever
you had. That is, if you had anything of value to start with other
than what you find off the backs of others.

Your knowledge of electronics is most likely gained from destroying
an untold amount of components and still to this day, you have to
scratch that bold head of yours and wonder what you did with that last
puff of smoke you allowed to escape.

You boast that your an elite in audio design, from what I've seen you
point out. A mear amateur, expert you are not!.

Answer the bloody question IDIOT !

What is a "saturated amplifier" ? You can't even use the right words.

Graham

I proved my point..


You have proved NOTHING and STILL failed to answer the question posed of you several
times now and not once addressed..

Graham

Look you geezer, you can back paddle all you want, it does
not change the facts.

Hacking up a post and twisting things around to detour, in an
attempt to save face, won't cut it..

Look, you want credit where credit is due? Ok.

you're very good at dodging the bullet, or
at least you think you are.

You may have some fooled, but not all.

Have a good day and may it rain on you bald
head, hard!

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

[Jamie[_2_]]

Phil Allison wrote:

"George's Pro Sound Company"
"Jamie"



I got to say Jamie, compared to you Eyesore is a Rhodes scholar, I havn't
seen anything but pure rubbish from you



** "Jamie" is actually one Maynard A. Philbrook.

Maynard is a another ****wit radio ham, call sign: KA1LPA

Maynard makes his living as a code scribbler, he is no electronics tech.

Maynard is mentally defective as hell.



..... Phil


LOL!!

Boy, are you missed informed!

Poor miss lead lamb !..

Btw **** head, The programming is not my bread and
butter, although I do use those skills in my regular job
at the micro level base.. Something I don't think you can
grasp.


http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

[Jamie[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:


Jamie wrote:


The blind leading the blind...


You're certainly blind as well as dumb.

Graham

That's very creative. Did it take all the
muster you could conjure up to spit that out?



http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

[Eeyore]

Jamie wrote:

Look you geezer, you can back paddle all you want, it does
not change the facts.

It's back-pedal and I haven't.

YOU ARE A COMPLETE IDIOT. GET OUT OF THIS THREAD.

[Jamie[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:


YOU ARE A COMPLETE IDIOT. GET OUT OF THIS THREAD.

You first ! **** for brains.

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

[liquidator[_2_]]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Jamie wrote:

The blind leading the blind...

You're certainly blind as well as dumb.

Graham


Dumb enough to flunk second grade spelling. It's 'place" not "plase".

A mental giant he isn't. just killfile his stupid ass. His grave ain't worth
****ing on.