[Ian Bell[_2_]]

I recently ordered some PCBs from ExpressPCB in the USA. They cost a
total of 51USD plus 45USD carriage (UPS Express) giving a total of 96USD
or about 60GBP at current exchange rates. I am in the UK but even with
the carriage costs this was as cheap or cheaper than European suppliers,
the software is a doddle to use and you don't have to worry about file
formats.

The boards arrived yesterday and I was disappointed to have to pay an
extra 22.50GBP (about 36USD) in import charges. This consisted of
11.50GBP VAT (roughly the same as sales tax in the US) and 11.0GBP
brokerage for for paying the VAT. I have purchased tubes and various
other items from the US and other parts of the world and this is the
first time I have ever had to pay duty. I don't know if this is a UPS
thing, simple bad luck or the norm for PCB imports.

What is worse is that the invoice says these are *estimated* amounts and
I may later get an invoice if the actual amounts differ.

So, a word of warning to UK users of ExpressPCB - watch out for import
duties!

Cheers

IOan

P.S. The PCBs are great. Thanks Phil for the details of the PCB socket
dimensions - they fit the PCB just right.

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
I recently ordered some PCBs from ExpressPCB in the USA. They cost a total
of 51USD plus 45USD carriage (UPS Express) giving a total of 96USD or about
60GBP at current exchange rates. I am in the UK but even with the carriage
costs this was as cheap or cheaper than European suppliers, the software is
a doddle to use and you don't have to worry about file formats.

The boards arrived yesterday and I was disappointed to have to pay an
extra 22.50GBP (about 36USD) in import charges. This consisted of 11.50GBP
VAT (roughly the same as sales tax in the US) and 11.0GBP brokerage for
for paying the VAT. I have purchased tubes and various other items from
the US and other parts of the world and this is the first time I have ever
had to pay duty. I don't know if this is a UPS thing, simple bad luck or
the norm for PCB imports.

What is worse is that the invoice says these are *estimated* amounts and I
may later get an invoice if the actual amounts differ.

So, a word of warning to UK users of ExpressPCB - watch out for import
duties!

Cheers

IOan



Hi IOan :-)

Since customs formalities are so much simplified now in the EU
one quickly forgets how it used to be in "the good old days"

Many people do not realise that customs VAT is payable on every
element of the invoice - the goods themselves, the freight (hate that
word shipping!) and also the clearing agent's costs. So you need to
check the figures very carefully to make sure you are not paying VAT
on a sum which aready includes it!

Most goods delivered as "small packets" in bubble-pack envelopes
don't attract the attention of the customs, unless the declared value
on the green sticker is high.

Some people choose to look ater the customs formalities themselves
thereby saving the brokerage costs. I spent the greater part of a day
last Friday at the customs with a road-manager colleague of mine
who went to collect a Studer recording console sent from Canada.
I don't know that I would have had the patience to fill in all the
required documentation but he saved quite a lot of money
(plus VAT) by not using the freight agent for this task.

Cheers
Iain

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Iain Churches wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
I recently ordered some PCBs from ExpressPCB in the USA. They cost a total
of 51USD plus 45USD carriage (UPS Express) giving a total of 96USD or about
60GBP at current exchange rates. I am in the UK but even with the carriage
costs this was as cheap or cheaper than European suppliers, the software is
a doddle to use and you don't have to worry about file formats.

The boards arrived yesterday and I was disappointed to have to pay an
extra 22.50GBP (about 36USD) in import charges. This consisted of 11.50GBP
VAT (roughly the same as sales tax in the US) and 11.0GBP brokerage for
for paying the VAT. I have purchased tubes and various other items from
the US and other parts of the world and this is the first time I have ever
had to pay duty. I don't know if this is a UPS thing, simple bad luck or
the norm for PCB imports.

What is worse is that the invoice says these are *estimated* amounts and I
may later get an invoice if the actual amounts differ.

So, a word of warning to UK users of ExpressPCB - watch out for import
duties!

Cheers

IOan



Hi IOan :-)

Since customs formalities are so much simplified now in the EU
one quickly forgets how it used to be in "the good old days"


How true. Which PCB supplier do you use? Are they European?

Many people do not realise that customs VAT is payable on every
element of the invoice - the goods themselves, the freight (hate that
word shipping!) and also the clearing agent's costs. So you need to
check the figures very carefully to make sure you are not paying VAT
on a sum which aready includes it!


Yes this is explained on the back of the invoice so I ended up paying
VAT on the PCBs AND the shipping cost. Working backwards, 11.50 VAT
means the total was £65.71 and if this represents $96 it means they used
an exchange rate of $1.46 to the GBP - probably about right. Silly thing
is I did not need the boards in a hurry so slower /cheaper freight would
have been OK and saved me some money. WHat really irks me is the extra
11 quid just for doing it!!


Most goods delivered as "small packets" in bubble-pack envelopes
don't attract the attention of the customs, unless the declared value
on the green sticker is high.


The blurb on the back of the invoice says duty may be payable if the
declared value exceeds $18 which is pretty low. Of course ExpressPCB
declared the value as $45.

Some people choose to look ater the customs formalities themselves
thereby saving the brokerage costs. I spent the greater part of a day
last Friday at the customs with a road-manager colleague of mine
who went to collect a Studer recording console sent from Canada.
I don't know that I would have had the patience to fill in all the
required documentation but he saved quite a lot of money
(plus VAT) by not using the freight agent for this task.

Cheers
Iain


Think I'll stick to EU suppliers for PCBs from now on.

Cheers

Ian

[Phil Allison]

"Ian Bell"


P.S. The PCBs are great. Thanks Phil for the details of the PCB socket
dimensions - they fit the PCB just right.


** You've got to ask yourself one question, Ian:

" Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk ?? "


So the punk felt lucky .............




...... Phil

[PeterD]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:34:09 +0000, Ian Bell
wrote:

I recently ordered some PCBs from ExpressPCB in the USA. They cost a
total of 51USD plus 45USD carriage (UPS Express) giving a total of 96USD
or about 60GBP at current exchange rates. I am in the UK but even with
the carriage costs this was as cheap or cheaper than European suppliers,
the software is a doddle to use and you don't have to worry about file
formats.

The boards arrived yesterday and I was disappointed to have to pay an
extra 22.50GBP (about 36USD) in import charges. This consisted of
11.50GBP VAT (roughly the same as sales tax in the US) and 11.0GBP
brokerage for for paying the VAT. I have purchased tubes and various
other items from the US and other parts of the world and this is the
first time I have ever had to pay duty. I don't know if this is a UPS
thing, simple bad luck or the norm for PCB imports.

What is worse is that the invoice says these are *estimated* amounts and
I may later get an invoice if the actual amounts differ.

So, a word of warning to UK users of ExpressPCB - watch out for import
duties!

Cheers

IOan

P.S. The PCBs are great. Thanks Phil for the details of the PCB socket
dimensions - they fit the PCB just right.


The problem is not ExpressPCB, but UPS... Both UPS and FedEx are known
for high brokerage charges.

[Eeyore]

Ian Bell wrote:

I recently ordered some PCBs from ExpressPCB in the USA. They cost a
total of 51USD plus 45USD carriage (UPS Express) giving a total of 96USD
or about 60GBP at current exchange rates. I am in the UK but even with
the carriage costs this was as cheap or cheaper than European suppliers,
the software is a doddle to use and you don't have to worry about file
formats.

The boards arrived yesterday and I was disappointed to have to pay an
extra 22.50GBP (about 36USD) in import charges. This consisted of
11.50GBP VAT (roughly the same as sales tax in the US) and 11.0GBP
brokerage for for paying the VAT. I have purchased tubes and various
other items from the US and other parts of the world and this is the
first time I have ever had to pay duty. I don't know if this is a UPS
thing, simple bad luck or the norm for PCB imports.

What is worse is that the invoice says these are *estimated* amounts and
I may later get an invoice if the actual amounts differ.

So, a word of warning to UK users of ExpressPCB - watch out for import
duties!

Yup, been there, done that. The 'brokerage' is a UPS ripoff.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Iain Churches wrote:

"Ian Bell" wrote in message

So, a word of warning to UK users of ExpressPCB - watch out for import
duties!

Since customs formalities are so much simplified now in the EU
one quickly forgets how it used to be in "the good old days"

Many people do not realise that customs VAT is payable on every
element of the invoice - the goods themselves, the freight (hate that
word shipping!) and also the clearing agent's costs. So you need to
check the figures very carefully to make sure you are not paying VAT
on a sum which aready includes it!

Most goods delivered as "small packets" in bubble-pack envelopes
don't attract the attention of the customs, unless the declared value
on the green sticker is high.

Universally my experience too plus there is a few tens of pounds tax free
allowance IIRC for personal imports.

Best is to get the green label marked 'gift', 'commercial sample of no value',
or some low value, say £15.


Some people choose to look ater the customs formalities themselves
thereby saving the brokerage costs. I spent the greater part of a day
last Friday at the customs with a road-manager colleague of mine
who went to collect a Studer recording console sent from Canada.
I don't know that I would have had the patience to fill in all the
required documentation but he saved quite a lot of money
(plus VAT) by not using the freight agent for this task.

I once sold some audio gear back in 1976/77 to some Norwegian guys. We were
'Common Market' then and they were as they are now EFTA but there were various
trade agreements.

These guys enquired of their local Customs and they said if you get a valid from
'XYZ' Oooh was it EUR2 ? there's no duty payable. So I got the forms from the
local Customs Office (we had one in town) and filled them in as described.

I helped them with the run to the port and hung around to see all was OK. After
a bit, one of them came out of the Customs building and waved me in. He said the
Customs Officer said it was all nonsence. So I spoke to him and told him this
was what they had been advised and would it hurt him to apply the official stamp
?

In botheration he replied "It won't make any difference you know" and duly
stamped all 6 or so forms in an officious manner.

When the guys got back to Norway, it all went smoothly and no duty was charged
! ;~)

Graham


p.s. my memory is scary. It looks like it WAS form EUR2 ! Nor bad recalling that
snippet from 30+ yrs ago

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ria/reduction-admin-burdens.pdf
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...ct=cl nk&cd=1

[Eeyore]

Ian Bell wrote:

Think I'll stick to EU suppliers for PCBs from now on.

How good are you at generating the Gerber and Excellon files ? Not a problem with
ExpressPCB and their software you see.

Graham

[Eeyore]

PeterD wrote:

The problem is not ExpressPCB, but UPS... Both UPS and FedEx are known
for high brokerage charges.

Totally agreed.

Graham

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:

Ian Bell wrote:

Think I'll stick to EU suppliers for PCBs from now on.

How good are you at generating the Gerber and Excellon files ? Not a problem with
ExpressPCB and their software you see.

Graham



Good question and the answer is I don't know because I have never done
it. However I have come a cross a couple of EU PCB makers who accept
Eagle files in their native format (they accept other formats too but
usually of proprietary=expensive EDA packages).

Cheers

Ian

[bigwig]

On 13 Nov, 21:11, Eeyore
wrote:
PeterD wrote:
The problem is not ExpressPCB, but UPS... Both UPS and FedEx are known
for high brokerage charges.

Totally agreed.

Graham

Hi,
I recently purchased two power transformers from the US. I decided to
use standard USPS as I was in no rush. They arrived after 9 days. The
only way I found this out was by tracking the package on the USPS site
and then the Parcel Force (the parcel side of the UK Post Office).
They only cost $52 each plus $34 for freight.
not bad when the whole thing weighed in at 20Lb. The charge once I
managed to locate them which I think was probably two of the nine days
delivery time was £8 handling from Parcel Force plus £10.40 VAT. I
thought this was very reasonable and I could not get the transformers
cheaper here even after all the costs, it wouldnt be so good now with
the exchange rate being so bad. About two weeks after I got them home
UK customs and excise sent me a letter stating that they had arrived
and the cost (which I had already paid).
If you check the UK customs website its an absolute minefield and I
think they make it up as they go along. I have heard some horror
stories from people who used FEDEX. A friend had customs knock on his
door and chase him up at work when he bought an engagement ring from
the US. I guess that was to be expected he was trying to pull a quick
one.
Dont blame Express PCB it has nothing to do with them its just the
crazy situation with our customs boys here. I would suggest you use
USPS and be prepared to wait a bit longer.
Matt.

[Eeyore]

Ian Bell wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Ian Bell wrote:

Think I'll stick to EU suppliers for PCBs from now on.

How good are you at generating the Gerber and Excellon files ? Not a problem with
ExpressPCB and their software you see.

Good question and the answer is I don't know because I have never done
it.

You don't want to unless you do this stuff full time and have a Gerber viewer / editor
to check the results.


However I have come a cross a couple of EU PCB makers who accept
Eagle files in their native format

Handy although I looked at Eagle and nearly vomitted.


(they accept other formats too but
usually of proprietary=expensive EDA packages).

Normal.

Graham

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

bigwig wrote:
On 13 Nov, 21:11, Eeyore
wrote:
PeterD wrote:
The problem is not ExpressPCB, but UPS... Both UPS and FedEx are known
for high brokerage charges.
Totally agreed.

Graham

Hi,
I recently purchased two power transformers from the US. I decided to
use standard USPS as I was in no rush. They arrived after 9 days. The
only way I found this out was by tracking the package on the USPS site
and then the Parcel Force (the parcel side of the UK Post Office).
They only cost $52 each plus $34 for freight.
not bad when the whole thing weighed in at 20Lb. The charge once I
managed to locate them which I think was probably two of the nine days
delivery time was £8 handling from Parcel Force plus £10.40 VAT. I
thought this was very reasonable and I could not get the transformers
cheaper here even after all the costs, it wouldnt be so good now with
the exchange rate being so bad. About two weeks after I got them home
UK customs and excise sent me a letter stating that they had arrived
and the cost (which I had already paid).
If you check the UK customs website its an absolute minefield and I
think they make it up as they go along. I have heard some horror
stories from people who used FEDEX. A friend had customs knock on his
door and chase him up at work when he bought an engagement ring from
the US. I guess that was to be expected he was trying to pull a quick
one.
Dont blame Express PCB it has nothing to do with them its just the
crazy situation with our customs boys here. I would suggest you use
USPS and be prepared to wait a bit longer.
Matt.

I don't blame ExpressPCB. T present they only seem to offer the express
freight. I'll email them, explain the situation and see if thay can
offer something slower/cheaper.

Cheers

Ian

[Eeyore]

bigwig wrote:

On 13 Nov, 21:11, Eeyore
wrote:
PeterD wrote:
The problem is not ExpressPCB, but UPS... Both UPS and FedEx are known
for high brokerage charges.

Totally agreed.

Graham

Hi,
I recently purchased two power transformers from the US. I decided to
use standard USPS as I was in no rush. They arrived after 9 days. The
only way I found this out was by tracking the package on the USPS site
and then the Parcel Force (the parcel side of the UK Post Office).
They only cost $52 each plus $34 for freight.
not bad when the whole thing weighed in at 20Lb. The charge once I
managed to locate them which I think was probably two of the nine days
delivery time was £8 handling from Parcel Force plus £10.40 VAT. I
thought this was very reasonable and I could not get the transformers
cheaper here even after all the costs, it wouldnt be so good now with
the exchange rate being so bad. About two weeks after I got them home
UK customs and excise sent me a letter stating that they had arrived
and the cost (which I had already paid).
If you check the UK customs website its an absolute minefield and I
think they make it up as they go along. I have heard some horror
stories from people who used FEDEX. A friend had customs knock on his
door and chase him up at work when he bought an engagement ring from
the US. I guess that was to be expected he was trying to pull a quick
one.
Dont blame Express PCB it has nothing to do with them its just the
crazy situation with our customs boys here. I would suggest you use
USPS and be prepared to wait a bit longer.
Matt.

Not bad advice but I don't think ExpressPCB give you a choice of carrier.

Graham

[Eeyore]

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Handy although I looked at Eagle and nearly vomitted.

The learning curve is very steep but Eagle is a nice piece o software.

Not compared to ones I'm used to it isn't !

Graham

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:

Ian Bell wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Ian Bell wrote:

Think I'll stick to EU suppliers for PCBs from now on.
How good are you at generating the Gerber and Excellon files ? Not a problem with
ExpressPCB and their software you see.
Good question and the answer is I don't know because I have never done
it.

You don't want to unless you do this stuff full time and have a Gerber viewer / editor
to check the results.


That was what was attractive about ExpressPCB. When I was working, we
had PCB designers who took care of all that but now I am retired I no
longer have that luxury! I have been interested in EDA for many years
and ran a drawing office (mainly PCB layouts) back in the mid 80s. Now I
moderate a yahoo group that supports the Kicad EDA package. I think
Gerber viewers have been feely available for a long time.

However I have come a cross a couple of EU PCB makers who accept
Eagle files in their native format

Handy although I looked at Eagle and nearly vomitted.


Yes, I started playing Eagle some years ago when I was looking for a
free EDA package. It was about the only freeish one available at the
time and seemed pretty klunky to me. That's why I took up woith Kicad.

(they accept other formats too but
usually of proprietary=expensive EDA packages).

Normal.

Graham


Cheers

Ian

[Mikkel C. Simonsen]

Ian Bell wrote:

I don't know if this is a UPS thing, simple bad luck or the norm
for PCB imports.

It's partly a UPS thing. The problem is that UPS do what they're
supposed to do. They charge VAT and duties on every shipment, which is
easy as they require an invoice from the sender. If you choose regular
mail instead, your parcel/letter may not get stopped, so you don't have
to pay every time.

I don't know about the "Royal Mail", but in Denmark the UPS fees are a
bargain compared to what the mail charges...

Best regards,

Mikkel C. Simonsen

[Paul Crawford]

I use a copy of PADS PowerPCB (originally at significant expense, now
owned by Mentor Graphics so probably even more expensive) so don't have
to worry about the design tools side of things.

There are a lot of cheap and usable packages out there, but with PCB
stuff you always seem to need a bit of time & effort to get over the
initial hump of making *anything* usable. Typically getting to know the
tools and creating a library of usable package decals takes effort. Why,
oh, why are they never supplied with useful decals to begin with?

In the UK I have found the "PCB Train" service is quick and good value:

http://www.pcbtrain.co.uk/

They also offer a reasonable cost option for assembling stuff , that is
useful if you are forced to use SMT devices and don't have the tools or
eyesight to do it by hand yourself.

[Eeyore]

Paul Crawford wrote:

I use a copy of PADS PowerPCB (originally at significant expense, now
owned by Mentor Graphics so probably even more expensive) so don't have
to worry about the design tools side of things.

There are a lot of cheap and usable packages out there, but with PCB
stuff you always seem to need a bit of time & effort to get over the
initial hump of making *anything* usable. Typically getting to know the
tools and creating a library of usable package decals takes effort. Why,
oh, why are they never supplied with useful decals to begin with?

Beats me, other than no-one can decide what 'useful' really is. I usually
end up designing most of my library parts too. Used Orcad for ages btw.
Liked Pads when I came across it. The pcb tools seemed more intuitive than
many I've seen. How ANYONE can use Protel is beyond me.


In the UK I have found the "PCB Train" service is quick and good value:

http://www.pcbtrain.co.uk/

They also offer a reasonable cost option for assembling stuff , that is
useful if you are forced to use SMT devices and don't have the tools or
eyesight to do it by hand yourself.

Worth a look.

Graham

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Paul Crawford wrote:
I use a copy of PADS PowerPCB (originally at significant expense, now
owned by Mentor Graphics so probably even more expensive) so don't have
to worry about the design tools side of things.

There are a lot of cheap and usable packages out there, but with PCB
stuff you always seem to need a bit of time & effort to get over the
initial hump of making *anything* usable. Typically getting to know the
tools and creating a library of usable package decals takes effort. Why,
oh, why are they never supplied with useful decals to begin with?


I ran a PCB drawing office back in the early 80s before PC based EDA
became commonplace. We spent a lot of time then creating footprints.

Then in the 90s at another company we moved from using external PCB
layout to an in house system and one of the cvriteria for the system we
chose was that it had lots of footprints. We still eneded spending a lot
of time making our own.

In the UK I have found the "PCB Train" service is quick and good value:

http://www.pcbtrain.co.uk/


I came across that one too. Prices seem reasonable too. Good to hear
from someone who has actually used them.

Cheers

Ian
They also offer a reasonable cost option for assembling stuff , that is
useful if you are forced to use SMT devices and don't have the tools or
eyesight to do it by hand yourself.

[Paul Crawford]

Eeyore wrote:
Beats me, other than no-one can decide what 'useful' really is. I usually
end up designing most of my library parts too. Used Orcad for ages btw.
Liked Pads when I came across it. The pcb tools seemed more intuitive than
many I've seen. How ANYONE can use Protel is beyond me.


I used the old DOS 16-bit Orcad initially and liked it. It was fast (on
a 12MHz 286!) and intuitive, with easy key-strokes for common tasks. You
got the impression it was written by folk who actually used it.

Then we got the 32-bit version of "DOS" Orcad (actually used a
DOS-extender I think). It was OK, handled bigger designs, but had a
number of irritating changes that made it seem less than good (mostly to
the PCB side of things).

When looking for a replacement to do stuff using 8-layer boards and
456-pin BGA packages I initially looked at the windows version of Orcar
(version 9 I think) and it was awful. All of the good aspects the DOS
original had were lost, and some things were just so stupid I could not
believe them. For example, editing a part with 'hidden' pins (e.g.
power/ground) in the DOS version showed them in blue so you could see
them to edit. In the windoze version they stayed hidden! You had to
guess/edit a location to see what the pin was, and if you made a mistake
there was no 'undo' option. DOH! Adding in the cost that was, after
allowing for inflation, 250% higher than the DOS package, it was
obviously not a good buy.

Having tried/demod the PADS package I was impressed, it was easy to
create things like the 456-pin BGA in about 4 commands (compared to
Orcad needing 456 manual pin placements) and it supported key-stroks for
common things, so I decided on that.

No idea how the various packages compare now, I don't use it so much
that it is worth paying for support/upgrades any more.

Sadly, the whole move to SMT just resulted in an explosion of PCB decals
being needed, and often for no good reason. For example, the 16-pin SO
resistor package from Bournes being just a *little* bit bigger than
everyone elses' 16-SO ICs. WTF?

[Eeyore]

Paul Crawford wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Beats me, other than no-one can decide what 'useful' really is. I usually
end up designing most of my library parts too. Used Orcad for ages btw.
Liked Pads when I came across it. The pcb tools seemed more intuitive than
many I've seen. How ANYONE can use Protel is beyond me.

I used the old DOS 16-bit Orcad initially and liked it. It was fast (on
a 12MHz 286!) and intuitive, with easy key-strokes for common tasks. You
got the impression it was written by folk who actually used it.

Likewise. Version 3.2. Was easy to use. I was only talking about it yesterday in
fact !


Then we got the 32-bit version of "DOS" Orcad (actually used a
DOS-extender I think). It was OK, handled bigger designs, but had a
number of irritating changes that made it seem less than good (mostly to
the PCB side of things).

When looking for a replacement to do stuff using 8-layer boards and
456-pin BGA packages I initially looked at the windows version of Orcar
(version 9 I think) and it was awful. All of the good aspects the DOS
original had were lost, and some things were just so stupid I could not
believe them. For example, editing a part with 'hidden' pins (e.g.
power/ground) in the DOS version showed them in blue so you could see
them to edit. In the windoze version they stayed hidden! You had to
guess/edit a location to see what the pin was, and if you made a mistake
there was no 'undo' option. DOH! Adding in the cost that was, after
allowing for inflation, 250% higher than the DOS package, it was
obviously not a good buy.

Having tried/demod the PADS package I was impressed, it was easy to
create things like the 456-pin BGA in about 4 commands (compared to
Orcad needing 456 manual pin placements) and it supported key-stroks for
common things, so I decided on that.

Interesting. I haven't originated anything in PADS, just reviewed.


No idea how the various packages compare now, I don't use it so much
that it is worth paying for support/upgrades any more.

Sadly, the whole move to SMT just resulted in an explosion of PCB decals
being needed, and often for no good reason. For example, the 16-pin SO
resistor package from Bournes being just a *little* bit bigger than
everyone elses' 16-SO ICs. WTF?

I feel for you.

Graham