I think that this is an excellent topic, as the people who feel this way are
clogging up the "Speaker cable burn in" area clearly need a place to
struggle for dominance. If I can lure them here possibly the macho fest will
be contained.
Let me start off by saying that speakers absolutely benefit from prolonged
burn in. There. that should do it about as well as a match in a can of
gasoline. Go to it boys!
Wylie Williams

The 12" woofers on my KEF105.2s 'burned in' to the point where the voice
coils were dragging and causing distortion. This happened after about 5
years. Rotating them 120 degrees fixed the problem.
Ron
"Wylie Williams" wrote in message
...
I think that this is an excellent topic, as the people who feel this way
are
clogging up the "Speaker cable burn in" area clearly need a place to
struggle for dominance. If I can lure them here possibly the macho fest
will
be contained.
Let me start off by saying that speakers absolutely benefit from prolonged
burn in. There. that should do it about as well as a match in a can of
gasoline. Go to it boys!
Wylie Williams

Graeme, you are the first in all the posts I have read to distinctly
acknowledge that speaker break in improves the sound of a speaker.
Thanks. I call it break in, not burn in, as I think it's a mechanical
process of flexing the spider and surround till they lose the stiffness of
newness, like a pair of leather shoes, although it may be that the internal
components (wires, and capacitors in speakers that have crossovers) have a
"burn in" factor too.
You are right in your belief that it varies by speaker. What are "normal"
speakers and how much is "much" are both hard to define. In my store we
found that all speakers were inproved by break in, some more than others. We
didn't really know why, but the speakers with butyl surrounds usually took a
lot longer. It reached the point that we would let any new speaker play all
night while the store was closed, and listen in the mornng to see what
happened. Our system was not scientific - we just compared it to similar
speakers in our wall of speakers till we decided it had stopped changing.
I am guessing that most factories don't play a speaker any longer than it
takes to determine that it works properly, which wouldn't be much of a break
in.

"Graeme Nattress" wrote in message
...
Absolutely. Certain speakers need a "burn in" (for want of a better
phrase) period. My lowthers took a couple of hundred hours to sound
nice - but they changed most radically over the first 40 or so. With
lowthers, it's hard to burn them in due to their high sensitivity and
the low powers you tend to use with them.

But I doubt "normal" speakers need much burn in. The factory testing
is probably more than enough to get them sounding optimum.

"Wylie Williams" wrote in message
...
I think that this is an excellent topic, as the people who feel this way
are
clogging up the "Speaker cable burn in" area clearly need a place to
struggle for dominance. If I can lure them here possibly the macho fest
will
be contained.
Let me start off by saying that speakers absolutely benefit from
prolonged
burn in. There. that should do it about as well as a match in a can of
gasoline. Go to it boys!
Wylie Williams

I'm guessing that this thread has pretty much run its limits. Here's the data I
have on speaker break-in on 12-inch woofers. I recite it follwed by Wylie's
post. Make up your own minds OR, better yet, run some experiments.

A few years ago i acquired 4 fresh a/d/s 12-inch woofers. I measured the T/S
parameters on all four 'fresh' out of the box. I then 'broke-in' two of them
for 24 hours per manufacturer recommendations(driven in free air with a sine
wave near the drivers resonance with just enough power to stroke the suspension
in a healthy fashion) and remeasured T/S parameters.

Sure enough, the free air resonance (Fs)
had fallen by over 5% and the compliance (Vas) had increased by a like amount.
But, to my surprise, two different speaker modelling software delivered exactly
the same recommended enclosures for either set 'fresh' and 'broken-in' T/S
parameters. IOW the changes seemed to be offsetting in regard to speaker
design.

So I installed each driver in one of the two enclosures I made for the
experiment and found that all four of them frequency response measured wihtin
the unit-to-unit tolerances of the four drivers when measured 'fresh.' Not
only that they sounded excatly the same to me and to 2 other listeners. (They
were unable to discern which was playing when switched from one to another.)

A couple years following this another manufacturer had woofers that, according
to them, required 150 hours of break-in. I requested that they deliver 2 fully
broken-in drivers and 2 'fresh' samples.

When they arrived I ran T/S measurments and found that all four of them were
within 5% of each other in every category. After installing one fresh and one
broken-in in the manufacturers recommended enclosure I found that response was
virtually indistinguishable one to another. IOW they all fell within the limits
you'd expect from unit to unit variances. It was no surprise that they all
sounded identical as well.

Next I had a manufacturer who insisted that his 12-inch woofer needed 48 hours
of break-in. This time I measured T/S of the driver; installed it in the
enclosure indicated by these measurements measured frequency response, Fsb and
DCR and then 'broke-it-in' in the box for 48 hours with a ramped 6.5-cycle sine
wave with enough power to get a good stroke but not so much as to burn out the
driver.

However this time I measured system resonance (Fsb) and DCR (series resistance
of the voice coil and tinsel leads) at intervals. Sure enough the system
resonance slowly fell ending up at just under 10% and the DCR increased as the
voice coil heated up. After 48 hours near field frequency response was within
the tolerance I got running two successive measurements when the unit was
freash.

Now, I then remeasured Fsb and DCR hourly for 3 hours and again after 24 hours.
Guess what? As the voice coil cooled down the system measurements return to
their original fresh values with an overnight rest.

Did these speakers "break-in?" Not in my opinion. It is true that they may
'warm-up' with extended use but warmed-up speakers do not sound different from
fresh samples.

Here's Mr Williams post:

"Wylie Williams" wrote:
Graeme, you are the first in all the posts I have read to distinctly
acknowledge that speaker break in improves the sound of a speaker.
Thanks. I call it break in, not burn in, as I think it's a mechanical
process of flexing the spider and surround till they lose the stiffness of
newness, like a pair of leather shoes, although it may be that the internal
components (wires, and capacitors in speakers that have crossovers) have a
"burn in" factor too.
You are right in your belief that it varies by speaker. What are "normal"
speakers and how much is "much" are both hard to define. In my store we
found that all speakers were inproved by break in, some more than others. We
didn't really know why, but the speakers with butyl surrounds usually took a
lot longer. It reached the point that we would let any new speaker play all
night while the store was closed, and listen in the mornng to see what
happened. Our system was not scientific - we just compared it to similar
speakers in our wall of speakers till we decided it had stopped changing.
I am guessing that most factories don't play a speaker any longer than it
takes to determine that it works properly, which wouldn't be much of a break
in.

(Nousaine) wrote in message news:hGXQa.71558$Ph3.7289@sccrnsc04...
SNIP
Did these speakers "break-in?" Not in my opinion. It is true that they may
'warm-up' with extended use but warmed-up speakers do not sound different from
fresh samples.

Now what would be interesting is to do similar experiments with
speakers other than the 12" cones you mention. I can't afford to buy
another set of Lowthers for a while, but because of their widely
accepted long break-in period, they would be worth performing similar
tests upon. Also, testing the frequency response as well as the T/S
would be beneficial because, at least with the Lowthers, it's not the
surround that does the breaking in, it's the gently bending and
weakening of some of the lacquer that I think is happening.

Your measurements seem to indicate that running a speaker warms up the
suspension and surround, and that is a reverseable effect (as long as
you don't damage the speaker), whereas the in the Lowther situation,
its definately a one-way effect, that doesn't reverse itself over
time. My Lowthers were in storage over a year, and they did not sound
terrible like they did in the first 40 hours. After a small amount of
playing music through them, they were warmed up and ready to rock. I
believe this warming up is the effect you have measured.

The "breaking in" of loudspeakers will therefore only happen on
certain designs of cone where an significant irreversable change
occurs during use, hence my belief that "normal" speakers don't need
any more than the most minimal "break in".

"GRL" wrote in message news:ASpTa.122202$ye4.89420@sccrnsc01...
If this were true, then the manufacturer would be shipping a product that
they know will sound terrible (your word) for 40 hours and you (as customer)
are doing the final "tuning" of the brand new speaker you just bought for
(my guess) big bucks.

Lowther speakers have been around forever, and AFAIK they have always
operated this way. The instructions with the drivers warn you to break
them in gently (low volume) for 40 hours. Yes - the drivers are
expensive, but I'd hate to see how much they'd cost if Lowther had to
break them in for me as well. Much cheaper to do it yourself. Lowther
are hardly mainstream - people who buy them know what to expect. It's
not as if they're pulling the wool over your eyes.

This strikes me as a totally non-viable business
model: selling a speaker whose sound sucks in the hope that the customer
will put up with it for a week and not haul it back to the dealer and demand
their money back.

Must be viable given that they've been in business longer than just
about any other speaker manufacturer.... I'm sure that if you want to
buy a Lowther after hearing it at a store or show you will be warned
about the break in period. You'll hear it in the store and like it (or
not) and if you decide to buy you'll be told about the run in period.


Strikes me that any manufacturer who really had such a product should "break
it in" in their plant before it is shipped to lots of returns from PO'd
customers who thought they were buying one sound, but getting one a lot
worse.

I doubt they could afford to. The drivers are already very expensive.


On the other hand, maybe you just got used to the sound that never actually
changed.

I doubt it. People who hear the speakers as they are now do not
describe them as atrocious or terrible - they generally like the sound
a lot. Anyway, I had to leave them unlistened to for over a year as I
moved to another country, and after hearing them again they did not
sound awful - they sounded great. I don't think the brain't
compensation circuitry has over a year long memory.

This happens a lot with other things that one simply gets used to
after a while. I always hate the feel of driving a pickup after driving a
car for a while, but get used to it in a day or so. The truck does not
change, my perception of it does.

Indeed there is always an element of this, but I can assure you not in
this case. The changes in sound are not small in any way - they are
gross changes as the lacquer covering the speaker cones gently softens
/ breaks with use and forever alters the sound of the driver. This is
a one way mechanical change due to the way the drivers are
constructed.

Graeme

As a newsgroup newcomer I don't know why I see your post without seeing any
of the preceding posts. I was especially interested in this thread, as I
started it, but it has disappeared from my view. Ah well, the world of
computer/internet is still a mystery to me.

[ Moderator's note: May be a problem with your server or newsreader, I
see the preceding posts just fine. -- deb ]

Anyway, I suppose someone said speakers sound "horrible" until broken in.
As I have proclaimed myself the expert (why not?) I'll render my expert
opinion.
I have 22 years experience in a stereo store. In my store we found that when
new speakers were put in the sound room with all the others they generally
sounded a little less full and more harsh than the ones already there. Often
we had the different models of the same series so we had some reason to
expect a similar sound. We always listened to the new ones a bit and
compared them to the others to form an opinion of their relative merits. I
personally never heard "horrible" unless the speaker was inherently
horrible, but some have more acute hearing than I and might honestly feel
that way. To me speakers have the same general character before break in as
after, but after is almost always better. It varies with the speaker, as
some improve more than others. We would compare daily until we felt that
they speakers had kept changing.
No, it was not getting accustomed to the sound, although that is a valid
point for home listeners. We would typically play a few minutes of one or
more of our familiar demo tracks on a new speaker then go on to our other
business for the day. At night we would leave the speaker playing from 9PM
till 11AM next day and 6PM Saturday till 11AM Monday. . We would check to
listen for changes. Some changed a little; some changed a lot. Sometimes it
took weeks, Listening to an assortment of 20 pairs of speakers during out 6
day work week didn't let us get accustomed to the sound in the way that you
would get accustomed to new speakers in your home.
Some speakers need a lot more than others: usually the more expensive ones.
But the ability to compare as time went on left us certain that we were
hearing break in changes, which we preferred in every case.
Why don't factories break in speakers? I'm guessing that it would be too
expensive. And for all I know some of the smaller audiophile companies do
it. Anybody know?
As for as it being a non viable business model, may I express my opinion
that the most profitable speakers ( Bose, JBL, Infinity, et al) are not sold
on their sonic superiority, but as this is a high end forum we all know
that.

"GRL" wrote in message
news:ASpTa.122202$ye4.89420@sccrnsc01...
If this were true, then the manufacturer would be shipping a product that
they know will sound terrible (your word) for 40 hours and you (as
customer)
are doing the final "tuning" of the brand new speaker you just bought for
(my guess) big bucks. This strikes me as a totally non-viable business
model: selling a speaker whose sound sucks in the hope that the customer
will put up with it for a week and not haul it back to the dealer and
demand
their money back.

Strikes me that any manufacturer who really had such a product should
"break
it in" in their plant before it is shipped to lots of returns from PO'd
customers who thought they were buying one sound, but getting one a lot
worse.

On the other hand, maybe you just got used to the sound that never
actually
changed. This happens a lot with other things that one simply gets used to
after a while. I always hate the feel of driving a pickup after driving a
car for a while, but get used to it in a day or so. The truck does not
change, my perception of it does.

--

- GRL

"It's good to want things."

Steve Barr (philosopher, poet, humorist, chemist,
Visual Basic programmer)
"Graeme Nattress" wrote in message
et...
(Nousaine) wrote in message
news:hGXQa.71558$Ph3.7289@sccrnsc04...
SNIP
Did these speakers "break-in?" Not in my opinion. It is true that they
may
'warm-up' with extended use but warmed-up speakers do not sound
different from
fresh samples.

Now what would be interesting is to do similar experiments with
speakers other than the 12" cones you mention. I can't afford to buy
another set of Lowthers for a while, but because of their widely
accepted long break-in period, they would be worth performing similar
tests upon. Also, testing the frequency response as well as the T/S
would be beneficial because, at least with the Lowthers, it's not the
surround that does the breaking in, it's the gently bending and
weakening of some of the lacquer that I think is happening.

Your measurements seem to indicate that running a speaker warms up the
suspension and surround, and that is a reverseable effect (as long as
you don't damage the speaker), whereas the in the Lowther situation,
its definately a one-way effect, that doesn't reverse itself over
time. My Lowthers were in storage over a year, and they did not sound
terrible like they did in the first 40 hours. After a small amount of
playing music through them, they were warmed up and ready to rock. I
believe this warming up is the effect you have measured.

The "breaking in" of loudspeakers will therefore only happen on
certain designs of cone where an significant irreversable change
occurs during use, hence my belief that "normal" speakers don't need
any more than the most minimal "break in".

On 23 Jul 2003 15:24:42 GMT, (Graeme Nattress)
wrote:

Lowther speakers have been around forever, and AFAIK they have always
operated this way. The instructions with the drivers warn you to break
them in gently (low volume) for 40 hours.

A well established belief system.

I don't think the brain't compensation circuitry has over a year long memory.

Perhaps but your expectations will endure.

Kal

On 23 Jul 2003 15:24:42 GMT, (Graeme Nattress)
wrote:

"GRL" wrote in message news:ASpTa.122202$ye4.89420@sccrnsc01...
If this were true, then the manufacturer would be shipping a product that
they know will sound terrible (your word) for 40 hours and you (as customer)
are doing the final "tuning" of the brand new speaker you just bought for
(my guess) big bucks.

Lowther speakers have been around forever, and AFAIK they have always
operated this way. The instructions with the drivers warn you to break
them in gently (low volume) for 40 hours. Yes - the drivers are
expensive, but I'd hate to see how much they'd cost if Lowther had to
break them in for me as well. Much cheaper to do it yourself. Lowther
are hardly mainstream - people who buy them know what to expect. It's
not as if they're pulling the wool over your eyes.

Yes, they are. With the tiny volume that Lowther ships, and the
massive cost of those drivers, it would cost next to nothing to have
an extra two days of storage time used for 'break-in' of the dozen or
so drivers that this would represent. The plain fact is that they have
a very distinctive sound, and *that* is what the 40-hour 'break-in'
period is for - to let your *ears* get used to the different sound.

Having said that, the crude construction of the cone and suspension
does lend itself to some kind of initial 'wearing in' process as the
paper fibres and lacqer settle from their new state. If such occurs,
this does not however bode well for longevity.............

This strikes me as a totally non-viable business
model: selling a speaker whose sound sucks in the hope that the customer
will put up with it for a week and not haul it back to the dealer and demand
their money back.

Must be viable given that they've been in business longer than just
about any other speaker manufacturer.... I'm sure that if you want to
buy a Lowther after hearing it at a store or show you will be warned
about the break in period. You'll hear it in the store and like it (or
not) and if you decide to buy you'll be told about the run in period.

Oh, the ones in the store are 'broken-in', I presume? :-)

Ever tried comparing the demo pair with ones fresh out of the box?

Strikes me that any manufacturer who really had such a product should "break
it in" in their plant before it is shipped to lots of returns from PO'd
customers who thought they were buying one sound, but getting one a lot
worse.

I doubt they could afford to. The drivers are already very expensive.

That's*why* it would cost next to nothing to break them in. You
couldn't say the same for say B&W 600 series drivers, which are cheap
drivers produced in massive volume.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

In article ,
Wylie Williams wrote:
Anyway, I suppose someone said speakers sound "horrible" until broken in.
As I have proclaimed myself the expert (why not?) I'll render my expert
opinion. I have 22 years experience in a stereo store.

Why not? Because 22 years experience in a stereo store does not
render you an expert in the physical properties and behavior of
loudspeakers. Pretty damned far from it, in fact. Thus, as a
person with 22 years experience in a stereo store, you have no
"expert" opinion when it comes to such properties and behavior.

Nearly a decade before you first entered your high-fi job, I was
measuring, designing, modeling, building, tearing down,
rebuilding loudspeakers and their components. While I am not
going to be so arrogant as to self-decalre myself the "expert,"
I'd bet 30 years of direct technical involvement in
loudspeakers, loudspeaker components, their design, measurement,
evaluation, including by listening, and being a paid consulatant
to a fairly large number of loudspeaker companies puts me a lot
closer to the title, I would assert.

For example, the claim was made in this thread that NO changes
are measurable. Now, that's a TRULY extraordinary claim, and, I
believe, was made by someone who very clearly NEVER made any
such measurements. I measure changes all the time, yet the issue
is what changes are significantly audible.

But, all due respect, 22 years in a hi fi store doesn;t wualify
you as any more of an expert in loudspeakers as 22 years behind
the cash register in a drug store would qualify someone as a
doctor.

Simple enough, eh?

--
| Dick Pierce |
| Professional Audio Development |
| 1-781/826-4953 Voice and FAX |
| |

Wylie Williams wrote:
Thus as a person with 22 years experience in a stereo store, you have no
"expert" opinion when it comes to such properties and behavior.
Sure I do. My experience does count for something, maybe not much, but in
this limited capacity I am confident in what I know. Maybe it's a misguided
confidence like the unproved assertions of a folk medicine practicioner as
opposed to the proven knowledge of medical doctor, but I still hold by what
I have heard so many times.

And like that folk practitioner, you may be quite wrong about the
*reasons* behind what you experienced. Since you've never *actually*
tested what you believe you tested -- whether speakers 'break in' audibly
-- you can't know.

It seems to me that you are an expert, even if you are so humble and
unassuming in your posts. Even if you were arrogant it would be
understandable, given your qualifications. I have met some arrogant people
in this business, Dick Seqerrra being the most memorable. I can understand
and accept arrogance when, like him, the individual is truly a superior
intellect who stands so far above the herd that he finds it difficult to
suffer fools gladly.

But, all due respect, 22 years in a hi fi store doesn;t wualify
you as any more of an expert in loudspeakers as 22 years behind
the cash register in a drug store would qualify someone as a
doctor.
Well, to preface that statement "all due respect" is a real corker. I do,
however, appreciate the gesture. If I have overstated my qualifications I
apologize. I thought that I was limiting my "expert" status to my
observation that speaker do indeed break in, and that the difference can be
heard, with the added personal observation that I prefer the change.

That is what you *reported*, and then you indicated that your 22 yrs in
audio retail is your main claim to 'expertise' as relates to the report.
Mr. Pierce explains why that is not a basis for expertise in asnwering the
question your observations raise.

The fact is, you could have performed your experiment the same way every
day of those 22 years, and gotten tons of positive 'break -in' results,
and it *still* wouldn't be a good experiment for determining whether
speaker break-in is audible, from a scientific POV, which is to say, a POV
where the main concern is getting an accurate model of reality.

--
-S.

(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message

Yes, they are. With the tiny volume that Lowther ships, and the
massive cost of those drivers, it would cost next to nothing to have
an extra two days of storage time used for 'break-in' of the dozen or
so drivers that this would represent. The plain fact is that they have
a very distinctive sound, and *that* is what the 40-hour 'break-in'
period is for - to let your *ears* get used to the different sound.


Sure they have a distinctive sound, as the brain/ear combination
adapts to that over time. There is also a physical break in that
occurs that completely alters the tonal balance of the drivers. Yes -
new driver do sound totally different to old run in drivers. They're
not even in the same ball park as each other.

You can't just dismiss the mechanical break in that occurs by masking
it with the ear/brain adaption. Both of these events occur
simultaneously, but listening to both old and new drivers will tell
you this.

Having said that, the crude construction of the cone and suspension
does lend itself to some kind of initial 'wearing in' process as the
paper fibres and lacqer settle from their new state. If such occurs,
this does not however bode well for longevity.............

The only longevity problems I've heard about are some of the old foam
surrounds rotting. I've seen some very, very old Lowthers / Voigts
that were still fine.

In article ,
Wylie Williams wrote:
Thus as a person with 22 years experience in a stereo store, you have no
"expert" opinion when it comes to such properties and behavior.
Sure I do. My experience does count for something, maybe not much, but in
this limited capacity I am confident in what I know.

But you claimed to be an expert. That's a VERY different matter
altogether now, isn't it? Just what are you claiming to be an
expert in?

Maybe it's a misguided
confidence like the unproved assertions of a folk medicine practicioner as
opposed to the proven knowledge of medical doctor,

And when both are wrong, the medic al doctor has a FAR better
chance of knowing WHY and thus not making the same mistake
again.

but I still hold by what I have heard so many times.

You're allowed to do that, but that STILL does not make you an
expert anymore than I would entertain the opinion of a folk
doctor in treating necrotizing pancreatitis.

While I am not going to be so arrogant as to self-decalre myself the
"expert,"
I'd bet 30 years of direct technical involvement in
loudspeakers, loudspeaker components, their design, measurement,
evaluation, including by listening, and being a paid consulatant
to a fairly large number of loudspeaker companies puts me a lot
closer to the title, I would assert.

It seems to me that you are an expert, even if you are so humble and
unassuming in your posts. Even if you were arrogant it would be
understandable, given your qualifications. I have met some arrogant people
in this business, Dick Seqerrra being the most memorable. I can understand
and accept arrogance when, like him, the individual is truly a superior
intellect who stands so far above the herd that he finds it difficult to
suffer fools gladly.

Dick Sequerra is a person to whom I would defer when it comes to
FM tuner design. Dick Sequerra is also a person who has deferred
to me on several occasions when it has come to matters speaker.

The point being that Both I and the esteemed Mr. Sequerra (who I
find not the least arrogant, but rather extremely freienmdy and
entertaining) both recognize the limitations of our repective
areas of expertise, and don't assume that

But, all due respect, 22 years in a hi fi store doesn;t wualify
you as any more of an expert in loudspeakers as 22 years behind
the cash register in a drug store would qualify someone as a
doctor.
Well, to preface that statement "all due respect" is a real corker.

Then you need to read more carefully' "with all due respect" is
meant exactly as it is written. I respect your 22 years
experience in a hi-fi store, and I respect that such does NOT
qualify you in a variety of fields having to do wioth hi-fi.
It's as simple as that.

I do,
however, appreciate the gesture. If I have overstated my qualifications I
apologize. I thought that I was limiting my "expert" status to my
observation that speaker do indeed break in, and that the difference can be
heard, with the added personal observation that I prefer the change.

That's an opinion, and one that you may have and I shan't deny
you that opinion. But you have no expert status beyond your
claim. It's very simple.

I have
expressed no wider claims to expertise, but I reserve the right for such in
future in case I discover that I know something.

Welll that's one of the nice things about what a person "knows:"
it does not have to be at all congruent with what "is" for the
person to "know" it.

Unfortunately, beyond that, what "is" could care less about what
any given person "knows." A lot of people in this business
"know" that speaker cables MUST be the same length, otherwise
imaging will suffer because the difference in timing. What "is"
is VERY different, and is not the least bit influenced by what
these people "know."

--
| Dick Pierce |
| Professional Audio Development |
| 1-781/826-4953 Voice and FAX |
| |

wrote:

the esteemed Mr. Sequerra (who I
find not the least arrogant, but rather extremely freienmdy and
entertaining)

No truer words were ever spoken. Dick holding court by virtue of his knowledge
and wit, at a "Bryston Breakfast" (Bismarck, CES, late 70's) is one of my
great industry experiences.

Bryston Breakfasts were always very cool, with people from all walks of audio
showing up, but this one towers above them all as the most memorable.

bp