[Radium]

Hi:

What are the chances that, in the next 20-50 years, that a
congenitally-deaf individual will have a chance to hear sounds via some
hi-tech electronic stimulation of the brain with electrical signals
exciting and relaxing certains parts of the brain in a similar manner
in which the auditory-cortex [of individual who can -- or could once --
hear] does? This would be a bionic substitute for the auditory cortex
that could be connected to the brain of a person who has never heard
anything from the time he/she was conceived. The brain is "tricked"
into perceiving the electronic signals as sound. The brain 'thinks'
that it is receiving signals from an actual auditory cortex but in fact
is receiving those messages from an electronic device.

Does anyone think that such technology will be available [or at least
developing] for congenitally-deaf patients in the next 20-50 years?

NOTE: Cochlear implants are peripheral rather than central. I am
talking about direct stimulation of the brain. The theoretical device I
am speaking of can cause auditory perception in a congenitally-deaf
individual in the same way auditory perception occurs in dreams [of
those who are not congenitelly-deaf] as well as auditory
hallucinations. This device would produce audio perceptions much in a
similar way that auditory-hallucinations occur -- i.e. within the brain
itself -- and could do so even in a congenitally-deaf individual who --
due to some birth-defect, perhaps -- has never had any peripheral
auditory nerves [remember, cochlear implants only work in subjects who
have peripherial auditory nerves].


Thanks,

Radium

[Xtrchessreal]

Radium wrote:
Hi:

What are the chances that, in the next 20-50 years, that a
congenitally-deaf individual will have a chance to hear sounds via some
hi-tech electronic stimulation of the brain with electrical signals
exciting and relaxing certains parts of the brain in a similar manner
in which the auditory-cortex [of individual who can -- or could once --
hear] does? This would be a bionic substitute for the auditory cortex
that could be connected to the brain of a person who has never heard
anything from the time he/she was conceived. The brain is "tricked"
into perceiving the electronic signals as sound. The brain 'thinks'
that it is receiving signals from an actual auditory cortex but in fact
is receiving those messages from an electronic device.

Does anyone think that such technology will be available [or at least
developing] for congenitally-deaf patients in the next 20-50 years?

NOTE: Cochlear implants are peripheral rather than central. I am
talking about direct stimulation of the brain. The theoretical device I
am speaking of can cause auditory perception in a congenitally-deaf
individual in the same way auditory perception occurs in dreams [of
those who are not congenitelly-deaf] as well as auditory
hallucinations. This device would produce audio perceptions much in a
similar way that auditory-hallucinations occur -- i.e. within the brain
itself -- and could do so even in a congenitally-deaf individual who --
due to some birth-defect, perhaps -- has never had any peripheral
auditory nerves [remember, cochlear implants only work in subjects who
have peripherial auditory nerves].


Thanks,

Radium

I would venture to say that you could get the technology to work and
the perhaps some nerve stimulations but the key thing to realize is
that the previously deaf person would hear noise and unable to discern
one sound from another. It would be like those of us that hear
normally trying to understand what a dog is communicating when it is
barking.

"Bark ruffshtifff zoingkk blat"

The technology would need to be interfaced on babies for it to work.
Especially within the first six months of life since that is the point
at which the most neurons are available for path connections etc.

On an adult it would probably make them go insane from the noise. I
imagine it to be like hooking up headphones to a white noise generator
along with some percusive sounds, extremely rattling. If you have ever
had the experience of a noise so loud it made your eyes go crossed -
totally un-interpretable.

Thats my opinion.

[Laurence Payne]

I wouldn't be too pessimistic about the adult brain's ability to learn
and adapt.

[artis]

3.78 to 1

Artis


"Radium" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi:

What are the chances that, in the next 20-50 years, that a
congenitally-deaf individual will have a chance to hear sounds via some
hi-tech electronic stimulation of the brain with electrical signals
exciting and relaxing certains parts of the brain in a similar manner
in which the auditory-cortex [of individual who can -- or could once --
hear] does? This would be a bionic substitute for the auditory cortex
that could be connected to the brain of a person who has never heard
anything from the time he/she was conceived. The brain is "tricked"
into perceiving the electronic signals as sound. The brain 'thinks'
that it is receiving signals from an actual auditory cortex but in fact
is receiving those messages from an electronic device.

Does anyone think that such technology will be available [or at least
developing] for congenitally-deaf patients in the next 20-50 years?

NOTE: Cochlear implants are peripheral rather than central. I am
talking about direct stimulation of the brain. The theoretical device I
am speaking of can cause auditory perception in a congenitally-deaf
individual in the same way auditory perception occurs in dreams [of
those who are not congenitelly-deaf] as well as auditory
hallucinations. This device would produce audio perceptions much in a
similar way that auditory-hallucinations occur -- i.e. within the brain
itself -- and could do so even in a congenitally-deaf individual who --
due to some birth-defect, perhaps -- has never had any peripheral
auditory nerves [remember, cochlear implants only work in subjects who
have peripherial auditory nerves].


Thanks,

Radium

[Bob Masta]

On 18 Dec 2006 22:26:38 -0800, "Radium" wrote:

Hi:

What are the chances that, in the next 20-50 years, that a
congenitally-deaf individual will have a chance to hear sounds via some
hi-tech electronic stimulation of the brain with electrical signals
exciting and relaxing certains parts of the brain in a similar manner
in which the auditory-cortex [of individual who can -- or could once --
hear] does? This would be a bionic substitute for the auditory cortex
that could be connected to the brain of a person who has never heard
anything from the time he/she was conceived. The brain is "tricked"
into perceiving the electronic signals as sound. The brain 'thinks'
that it is receiving signals from an actual auditory cortex but in fact
is receiving those messages from an electronic device.

Does anyone think that such technology will be available [or at least
developing] for congenitally-deaf patients in the next 20-50 years?

NOTE: Cochlear implants are peripheral rather than central. I am
talking about direct stimulation of the brain. The theoretical device I
am speaking of can cause auditory perception in a congenitally-deaf
individual in the same way auditory perception occurs in dreams [of
those who are not congenitelly-deaf] as well as auditory
hallucinations. This device would produce audio perceptions much in a
similar way that auditory-hallucinations occur -- i.e. within the brain
itself -- and could do so even in a congenitally-deaf individual who --
due to some birth-defect, perhaps -- has never had any peripheral
auditory nerves [remember, cochlear implants only work in subjects who
have peripherial auditory nerves].


The technology you are talking about is currently under active
research and development. However, as far as I know nobody is
attempting to stimulate the auditory cortex (as can be done with
visual cortex). Instead, they are looking into some of the
"way-stations" that the signals from the periphery pass through
on their way up to the cortex. The issues are many, but one
is that they need to find a "mapping",

The cochlea is a parallel system, with separate channels
(neurons) for each frequency. The cochlear implant can take
advantage of the fact that high-frequency neurons come
from the base of the cochlea (nearest the outside world) and
low-frequency neurons come from the apex. So there is a regular
mapping between location and frequency. The cochlear prosthesis is
just a linear array of electrodes, and they basically just thread it
up into the cochlea. Wherever it stops, the electrode contacts will
be near neurons of some particular frequency. It's not going to be
identical from patient to patient, but it's more or less
predictable that more-distant electrodes stimulate lower
frequencies.

But after the nerve bundle connects to the cochlear nucleus
("nucleus" in brain-talk means "bunch of neurons and stuff"),,
the mapping is not so neat. The contact electrodes will probably
need to be a 2-D surface array, which will have to contact an
ill-defined glob of cells...difficult, compared to the simplicity of a
linear cochlea.

But it gets worse. The signals are getting partially decoded as they
work their way up to the cortex. so it's not as simple as one contact
for one input frequency. There are neurons that respond to different
"features" of the sound frequencies, such as onset and offset or
sweeps. So even assuming that a predictable placement can be
worked out somehow (or mapped after placement, more likely),
the encoding of the stimulating signals for each electrode is going
to be much more involved.

And as you go higher up toward the cortex, the encoding problem
gets worse. I suspect that at the top, things will be so heavily
processed and combined with other inputs that the best strategy,
would be to just place the electrodes and then have some sort of
scheme where electrodes are stimulated in random patterns and
the subject reports what is heard. Or, as another post implies,
you just plug in some arbitrary stimulus mapping and let the
subject learn what it means ("neural plasticity")... eventually.

Best regards,


Bob Masta
dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Home of DaqGen, the FREEWARE signal generator

[ian.vitro]

Well, I'm with the above post. It's highly unlikely that stimulating
cortex would be the most efficient and/or useful way to solve this
problem because of brainstem processing. The complicated way that
afferent neurons from cochlea hook up to olivary nucleus gives us the
ability to sense the direction of a source of a wave that travels at
some 330 m/s. After this, things split again. It is a common mistake in
neuro to believe that all processing goes on in cortex - the energy
costs of synapses are so high that I guarantee there is computation, a
"reason" for being if you will, anywhere they exist.

Auditory hallucinations are a little more complicated than just
activity within the primary auditory cortex, as well - there are
affective components (limbic system), they probably come from memory
(requiring hippocampal activation), as well as having the auditory
component. Lastly, thanks to plastic properties of cerebral cortex,
congenitally deaf adults probably don't have "auditory cortex." Since
afferent nerves from auditory system haven't stimulated any activity,
it is likely that this part of cortex would be "taken over" by adjacent
areas, like is seen in stroke recovery; or in Hubel & Weisel's
experiments with cat visual cortex.

Cheers,

Ian Vitro

[moneysmith]

I forwarded the original question to Michael Seidman, an ENT at Henry
Ford Health Systems, and here is his reply:

Dear Radium, My answer is too lengthy to really discuss in an email,
but I will try to touch on the highlights.

There is already extensive research being conducted at hair cell
regeneration in the inner ear. I have a lengthy scientific talk on this
which will be available on my website within the next several weeks.

We are already implanting electrodes into the auditory cortex (a study
I have developed), you can see this on www.bodylanguagevitamin.com --
look in the educational resources section (this is a commercial
website) and scroll way down and one of the first powerpoint
presentations which has some of this work on the site.

Two of my patients are experiencing auditory hallucinations when the
power is turned up. Part of the problem is that people who have NEVER
learned speech and acquired language will have an EXCEPTIONALLY
difficult time gaining hearing through stimulation at the cochlea or
the brain. We know that if you cover someone's eyes from birth for the
first 1-2 years of life they will be blind forever, as the neural
tracts are not laid down. Some have said that this may be true for
hearing as well. I could discuss this for hours and write pages and
pages, but I will have to stop here.

Michael D. Seidman, MD., FACS
Henry Ford Health System
Director of Otologic/Neurotologic Surgery
Medical-Director Tinnitus Center
Medical Director of the Complementary/Integrative Medicine Center
Associate Clinical Professor Wayne State University-Dept of Oto HNS
6777 W. Maple Rd
W. Bloomfield, Michigan 48323 USA


ian.vitro wrote:
Well, I'm with the above post. It's highly unlikely that stimulating
cortex would be the most efficient and/or useful way to solve this
problem because of brainstem processing. The complicated way that
afferent neurons from cochlea hook up to olivary nucleus gives us the
ability to sense the direction of a source of a wave that travels at
some 330 m/s. After this, things split again. It is a common mistake in
neuro to believe that all processing goes on in cortex - the energy
costs of synapses are so high that I guarantee there is computation, a
"reason" for being if you will, anywhere they exist.

Auditory hallucinations are a little more complicated than just
activity within the primary auditory cortex, as well - there are
affective components (limbic system), they probably come from memory
(requiring hippocampal activation), as well as having the auditory
component. Lastly, thanks to plastic properties of cerebral cortex,
congenitally deaf adults probably don't have "auditory cortex." Since
afferent nerves from auditory system haven't stimulated any activity,
it is likely that this part of cortex would be "taken over" by adjacent
areas, like is seen in stroke recovery; or in Hubel & Weisel's
experiments with cat visual cortex.

Cheers,

Ian Vitro

[Radium]

Big thanks to all those who took the time and energy to answer my
question.

[Charles Schuler]

"Radium" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi:

What are the chances that, in the next 20-50 years, that a
congenitally-deaf individual will have a chance to hear sounds via some
hi-tech electronic stimulation of the brain with electrical signals
exciting and relaxing certains parts of the brain in a similar manner
in which the auditory-cortex [of individual who can -- or could once --
hear] does?

Given your time frame, the odds are better than even. But, it might involve
some brain adaptation (learning).

[Chef Juke]

On 19 Dec 2006 01:02:04 -0800, "Xtrchessreal"
wrote:




I would venture to say that you could get the technology to work and
the perhaps some nerve stimulations but the key thing to realize is
that the previously deaf person would hear noise and unable to discern
one sound from another. It would be like those of us that hear
normally trying to understand what a dog is communicating when it is
barking.

"Bark ruffshtifff zoingkk blat"

The technology would need to be interfaced on babies for it to work.
Especially within the first six months of life since that is the point
at which the most neurons are available for path connections etc.

On an adult it would probably make them go insane from the noise. I
imagine it to be like hooking up headphones to a white noise generator
along with some percusive sounds, extremely rattling. If you have ever
had the experience of a noise so loud it made your eyes go crossed -
totally un-interpretable.

Thats my opinion.

A few years ago I had a bout of Bell's Palsy. This affected the
facial nerve on the left side of my face (made me look as if I had had
a stroke) and it also affected the muscle that stretches the ear drum.
This resulted in hyperacusis, a symptom where the ear hears sounds as
louder than they are, in this case because the muscle in my left ear
that would normally stretch the eardrum reflexivly to loud noises was
paralyzed (temporarily).

The real-worl result was, about a week after I first came down with
Bell's Palsy, I went to a Lyle Lovett concert. My wife had gotten us
front row seats. I had not noticed any symptoms related to my ear
until the point when the Band struck up and started playing. It was
like listening to a stereo with a blown left speaker with the sound
turned up all the way. To my affected left ear, the sound of the band
was about 3 times louder than the right and it was distorted like a
blown speaker. Hurt like a sonovagun too. I slapped my hand over my
ear and eventually figured that if I stuffed the right amount of
tissue in my ear, I could dampen the sound enough to equalize between
the left and right ears.

I later found out that the muscle in your ear works kind of
like...well kind of like a tv censor....when it hears something coming
in that seems to loud, it automatically adjusts the ear so that the
sound is muted....like a limiter of sorts. I imagine that this is the
one of the major obstacles any technology trying to bring hearing to
the deaf would have to work hard to overcome. How to effectively
autobalance the sound coming in, in a way that matches how the body
normally does it.




-Chef Juke
"EVERYbody Eats When They Come To MY House!"
www.chefjuke.com

[Ken]

I was initially sceptical about this thread but it has certainly proved
interesting, giving us a glimpse of the synaptic activity which
underlies all human mental and physical activity, the way the ears may
judge direction by phase analysis and how much of the analysis of
received data may take place at muscular-level rather than in the brain
itself. I suppose one question is how you define the brain. One
definition would encompass all systems linked to it. I have had the
impression that the retina is indistinguishable from the brain and I
suppose many of us have a similar feeling about the cochlea.

As the group is no doubt tired of hearing, I was recently fitted with a
CI and the perception, when I turn the processor on, is that
information is being conveyed directly to my brain (OK - in part this
is because the transfer of data across my skin actually takes place
immediately above my ear) whereas, with a normal hearing aid, it is
being fed to my ear.

Another example of distributed processing is the quite incredible
ability of our hands to identify incredibly small differences in the
weight of objects (I am talking grams). This must involve some sort of
muscular memory and ability to compare. And all those instinctive
movements we make doing everyday things which seem to happen with
little or now involvement of the brain - I have often felt that the
essence of sporting skills - skiing or playing tennis - lie in the
ability of the limbs to learn to do various complicated things without
conscious thought - automatically.

Fascinating stuff!

[Radiosrfun]

"Ken" wrote in message
ups.com...

I was initially sceptical about this thread but it has certainly proved
interesting, giving us a glimpse of the synaptic activity which
underlies all human mental and physical activity, the way the ears may
judge direction by phase analysis and how much of the analysis of
received data may take place at muscular-level rather than in the brain
itself. I suppose one question is how you define the brain. One
definition would encompass all systems linked to it. I have had the
impression that the retina is indistinguishable from the brain and I
suppose many of us have a similar feeling about the cochlea.

As the group is no doubt tired of hearing, I was recently fitted with a
CI and the perception, when I turn the processor on, is that
information is being conveyed directly to my brain (OK - in part this
is because the transfer of data across my skin actually takes place
immediately above my ear) whereas, with a normal hearing aid, it is
being fed to my ear.

Another example of distributed processing is the quite incredible
ability of our hands to identify incredibly small differences in the
weight of objects (I am talking grams). This must involve some sort of
muscular memory and ability to compare. And all those instinctive
movements we make doing everyday things which seem to happen with
little or now involvement of the brain - I have often felt that the
essence of sporting skills - skiing or playing tennis - lie in the
ability of the limbs to learn to do various complicated things without
conscious thought - automatically.

Fascinating stuff!


I'm not sure if this is what you wish to read - but - a few months back -
there was an article in our local paper of a young girl - now about 15 or
so - who apparently was deaf from birth. The article related "surgery helps
girl deaf from birth - hear for the first time". So - whatever they did -
apparently did work - at least to some degree. Does she hear like those of
us granted hearing at birth? Who knows! Just thought I would share that with
you - given the header topic. IF you wish, you could look up the article
itself in the news papers archives. The newspaper is called "The Valley
Independent" - and is printed in Westmoreland County - PA. That news paper
is also affiliated with the "Tribune Review" which you may also see headers
for in any web search related. Whether they ran the story in both - I
couldn't say.

Lou

[jakdedert]

Radiosrfun wrote:

I'm not sure if this is what you wish to read - but - a few months back -
there was an article in our local paper of a young girl - now about 15 or
so - who apparently was deaf from birth. The article related "surgery helps
girl deaf from birth - hear for the first time". So - whatever they did -
apparently did work - at least to some degree. Does she hear like those of
us granted hearing at birth? Who knows! Just thought I would share that with
you - given the header topic. IF you wish, you could look up the article
itself in the news papers archives. The newspaper is called "The Valley
Independent" - and is printed in Westmoreland County - PA. That news paper
is also affiliated with the "Tribune Review" which you may also see headers
for in any web search related. Whether they ran the story in both - I
couldn't say.

I wonder if any two of us hear things--in our heads--the same. Maybe
what I perceive as loud, you perceive the same way I would bright or
hot. Is there really any way to tell?

My feeling is that the experience is similar; but I don't know that
there will ever be any way to really tell. Perhaps by observing the
areas of the brain that are stimulated by various sensory input....?

jak

Lou

[Radiosrfun]

"jakdedert" wrote in message
...
Radiosrfun wrote:

I'm not sure if this is what you wish to read - but - a few months back -
there was an article in our local paper of a young girl - now about 15 or
so - who apparently was deaf from birth. The article related "surgery
helps girl deaf from birth - hear for the first time". So - whatever they
did - apparently did work - at least to some degree. Does she hear like
those of us granted hearing at birth? Who knows! Just thought I would
share that with you - given the header topic. IF you wish, you could look
up the article itself in the news papers archives. The newspaper is
called "The Valley Independent" - and is printed in Westmoreland County -
PA. That news paper is also affiliated with the "Tribune Review" which
you may also see headers for in any web search related. Whether they ran
the story in both - I couldn't say.

I wonder if any two of us hear things--in our heads--the same. Maybe what
I perceive as loud, you perceive the same way I would bright or hot. Is
there really any way to tell?

My feeling is that the experience is similar; but I don't know that there
will ever be any way to really tell. Perhaps by observing the areas of
the brain that are stimulated by various sensory input....?

jak

Lou


I have to agree!

Lou

[Radiosrfun]

"Radiosrfun" wrote in message
...

"jakdedert" wrote in message
...
Radiosrfun wrote:

I'm not sure if this is what you wish to read - but - a few months
back - there was an article in our local paper of a young girl - now
about 15 or so - who apparently was deaf from birth. The article related
"surgery helps girl deaf from birth - hear for the first time". So -
whatever they did - apparently did work - at least to some degree. Does
she hear like those of us granted hearing at birth? Who knows! Just
thought I would share that with you - given the header topic. IF you
wish, you could look up the article itself in the news papers archives.
The newspaper is called "The Valley Independent" - and is printed in
Westmoreland County - PA. That news paper is also affiliated with the
"Tribune Review" which you may also see headers for in any web search
related. Whether they ran the story in both - I couldn't say.

I wonder if any two of us hear things--in our heads--the same. Maybe
what I perceive as loud, you perceive the same way I would bright or hot.
Is there really any way to tell?

My feeling is that the experience is similar; but I don't know that there
will ever be any way to really tell. Perhaps by observing the areas of
the brain that are stimulated by various sensory input....?

jak

Lou


I have to agree!

Lou

I was using toothpicks to hold my eyes open in the last reply - but was
going to add - there have been - even recently in other threads - chats on
sound quality of radios. Your comment was a good one - given levels of
hearing with people individually - it is best to not get too technical or
picky on "audio" quality. What may sound good to me - may be muddled to
someone else. A "musician" can pick out a sour note much quicker than me -
even if his hearing isn't so good anymore. I am sure no two Audiophiles have
the same taste in sound. Same with volume loudness. If a guy is wearing
double hearing aids as a friend of mine does - something of low volume to me
and others - blows his ears out. "I" am not deaf by a long shot. I wish I
had stock in the hearing aid companies because in the next 5 years or so I
do see a spike in sales. When you can hear a car coming - from the stereo
blasting - and it is a good mile or so down the road - that speaks loudly -
pun intended. Those people won't be hearing too much longer. Speaking of of
hearing aids -- there are "some" people who "may" have some hearing
difficulties - won't admit to it, do not wear hearing aids and well - if you
get into a ****ing match with them as to audio quality, you could be there a
while.

I've been into electronics quite a while. I've tuned many radios by the
"manufacturers tuning directions". But I often find - I tweak it a bit
more - by ear - for best quality. Test equipment does ok - but.............
So then - we could get into a discussion of "vision" or equipment specs and
tolerances - as to whether or not I read my meters correctly or the quality
or specs of that equipment was of par! And so the world keeps
spinning....... always providing issues with which to debate.......

Yeah, this is a thread which can stimulate quite a bit of response if it
were to be. I try to not get into arguments over things such as this purely
for the reasons given. There is no sense in arguing with people over stupid
issues. Sometimes (unfortunately) I don't heed my own advice.

I am sure much has been done in Medical advances. Oddly enough - I keep
hearing of cures for cancer having been found, etc. Yet just this year and
just in the last 6 months, I've either lost friends to cancer OR had some
diagnosed with it. Only "one" person - do I know - who was deemed "in
remission" - not cured. She was like 5 years old at the start - and deemed
in remission at the age of I believe 14. She is now like 22. A very bright
and beautiful young lady with "hopefully" a promising career and lifetime
ahead.

Back to sound quality, though I don't listen to things set too loudly to
start, I find I must turn them down completely when using my cell phone -
as many complain the sounds wipe "me" out - even if on very low audio where
"I" could still hear them at the lowest point. It doesn't matter if I'm
using my headset or handset (my headset is always used 99.9% of time) - they
hear the background much louder than me - even a "slight" breeze! The
exhaust of my truck or engine noise if my windows are down! My heater, etc.
I guess in this case - my cell phone has good audio on transmission - but
"maybe" too good!

Yeah, this is a case where audio quality could be argued til cows start
flying.......... It would be interesting to see other views - but
"certainly" nothing worth "fighting" about!

It could be interesting to see the results of a study where someone who's
hearing has been restored from deafness be it from birth or injury - to see
what - if any - differences there may be. Someone from deaf from birth may
be best as they have no memory of what things sound like. I guess you would
have to "program" their mind first - with various sounds - just to get them
to know what the sound is being produced by - even a simple knock on the
door!

WOW - the things we take for granted......... Christmas is a time of
miracles, so they say. I hope those of us with these miracles of sound and
sight - can keep them - and those who don't have them - may be able to get
them.

Happy Holidays to all. May they be safe, healthy, rewarding and a picture of
brighter days ahead.

Lou

[Ken]

The short answer is 100%. There are thousands of people born without
hearing who can now hear because of cochlear implants. I would expect
that the odds against an implant working on a random person would be
around 0.001% - negligible.

I can say, with some authority, that these people hear. A robin (or a
microwave or a car) chirps and they hear it! A piece of paper falls on
a table and they hear it. In fact a match falls on a table (or a cat
purrs) and it comes through loud and clear.

So in essence, anyone born without functioning hearing, given
expenditure of about $30k, can be given the ability to hear.

Expressed as above, maybe no big deal. But if they can hear an
approaching sparrow or a purring cat, they can also hear a car (or an
angry partner) which/who is about to hit them.

[Bob Masta]

On 24 Dec 2006 20:14:40 -0800, "Ken" wrote:

The short answer is 100%. There are thousands of people born without
hearing who can now hear because of cochlear implants. I would expect
that the odds against an implant working on a random person would be
around 0.001% - negligible.

I can say, with some authority, that these people hear. A robin (or a
microwave or a car) chirps and they hear it! A piece of paper falls on
a table and they hear it. In fact a match falls on a table (or a cat
purrs) and it comes through loud and clear.

So in essence, anyone born without functioning hearing, given
expenditure of about $30k, can be given the ability to hear.

Expressed as above, maybe no big deal. But if they can hear an
approaching sparrow or a purring cat, they can also hear a car (or an
angry partner) which/who is about to hit them.


Sorry to say, it's not quite that simple. Yes, most of the recipients
can "hear", but it's not very close to normal hearing. Very few, for
example, can enjoy music. The reason is pretty clear when you
understand that the normal cochlea can resolve several thousand
different frequencies... because it has separate neurons for each one.
The coclear implants typically have 22 electrodes, so in some ideal
sense you might hope they could resolve 22 different frequency bands.
Alas, it's nowhere near this good. The first issue is that many of
those electrodes never even make it into the proper part of the
cochlea, since the surgeon can't get it in all the way for whatever
reason. Then, the patient may not have all the original nerves
intact, so there is nothing to receive the stimulus in some regions.
Finally, there is the (BIG) problem of current spread. The electrodes
are not sitting right on the nerves they are attempting to
stimulate... the current must travel a certain distance.
Unfortunately, it is travelling through (essentially) sal****er,
so the current spreads to surrounding nerves, not just the one
that is closest. Besides limiting the selectivity, the current
spread also affects how many channels you can activate at
once. There are very sophisticated stimulation schemes that
try to address these issues, but the last I heard a typical
result for overall frequency resolution is about 8 channels.

I have heard simulations of various numbers of channels,
and believe me, 8 is pretty lame compared to normal
hearing. However, it is enough that with training many
patients can learn to use a telephone. That's the "gold
standard" in CI circles (since the patient doesn't have
any lipreading cues), but even there the whole trick
works because normal speech is very redundant and
full of contextual cues.

So, we still have a *looonng* way to go before we can
come anywhere close to restoring "hearing" in the sense
that most of us think of it.

Best regards,




Bob Masta
dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Home of DaqGen, the FREEWARE signal generator

[Kalman Rubinson]

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 16:11:21 GMT, (Bob Masta)
wrote:

On 24 Dec 2006 20:14:40 -0800, "Ken" wrote:

The short answer is 100%.
snip
Expressed as above, maybe no big deal. But if they can hear an
approaching sparrow or a purring cat, they can also hear a car (or an
angry partner) which/who is about to hit them.


Sorry to say, it's not quite that simple. Yes, most of the recipients
can "hear", but it's not very close to normal hearing. Very few, for
example, can enjoy music.

Yes buy that was not what he was saying. They will have functional
hearing sufficient for communication and survival. Music and other
subtleties involve many, many issues.

Kal

[Ken]

I understand Cochlear is developing a 48-electrode array - difficult
for the reasons you mention. And still a long way from thousands.
Incidentally, in my case, as a recent implantee, all electrodes
worked.

I have yet to tackle music - except what I pick up listening to
radio/DVDs/TV. And I have one ear which, with a hearing aid, can hear
up to 1000hz and, within that limitation, can enjoy music (No violins
but most vocal not bad and, oddly, clarinets come through)
In response to Kalman and others,

From reports from other implantees, experience with music varies widely
(I find myself wondering whether those who do well were, in their
hearing years, tone deaf - plenty of tone-deaf people love/ enjoy music
and the deficiencies of CI mentioned above would not affect them - my
wife is tone-deaf and, as a child, had a hopeless ambition to be in the
choir - naturally she always, eventually, got turfed out!).

The other thing is the ability of the brain to adapt - learn. I intend
to work with a keyboard to see if it is possible to follow the
chromatic scale - we will see.

And the other string to my bow is continuing development of CI
software. The big thing, for people interested in music, is that
Cochlear must be keen to sell CI technology to populous increasingly
affluent Asian countries whose languages are tonal. For CI to work well
in these countries its ability to convey music is, coincidentally,
improved.

Harking back to the original post, the question was whether people born
deaf could be enabled to hear. The answer is, as I said, yes. Not hear
well, but, like Dr. Johnson's bi-pedal dog, be able to do it at all.

As has often been mentioned (yet is widely overlooked) environmental
noises are important - sometimes vital - for our survival in a
dangerous world

[artis]

"Ken" wrote in message
s.com...


I understand Cochlear is developing a 48-electrode array - difficult
for the reasons you mention. And still a long way from thousands.
Incidentally, in my case, as a recent implantee, all electrodes
worked.

I have yet to tackle music - except what I pick up listening to
radio/DVDs/TV. And I have one ear which, with a hearing aid, can hear
up to 1000hz and, within that limitation, can enjoy music (No violins
but most vocal not bad and, oddly, clarinets come through)
In response to Kalman and others,

From reports from other implantees, experience with music varies widely
(I find myself wondering whether those who do well were, in their
hearing years, tone deaf - plenty of tone-deaf people love/ enjoy music
and the deficiencies of CI mentioned above would not affect them - my
wife is tone-deaf and, as a child, had a hopeless ambition to be in the
choir - naturally she always, eventually, got turfed out!).

The other thing is the ability of the brain to adapt - learn. I intend
to work with a keyboard to see if it is possible to follow the
chromatic scale - we will see.
And the other string to my bow is continuing development of CI
software. The big thing, for people interested in music, is that
Cochlear must be keen to sell CI technology to populous increasingly
affluent Asian countries whose languages are tonal. For CI to work well
in these countries its ability to convey music is, coincidentally,
improved.



Rush Limbaugh says that with his cochlear implant he can listen to music he
knew before his auto-immune condition rendered him completely deaf, and hear
it, but music he did not learn when his hearing was normal, he cannot now
decipher or appreciate. A very interesting observation, as he is a former
disk jockey, who now makes talk radio his livelihood.

Artis

[EOO]

"artis" wrote in message
...


Rush Limbaugh says that with his cochlear implant he can listen to music
he knew before his auto-immune condition rendered him completely deaf, and
hear it, but music he did not learn when his hearing was normal, he cannot
now decipher or appreciate. A very interesting observation, as he is a
former disk jockey, who now makes talk radio his livelihood.

Artis

I was under the impression that "America's paragon of virtue" was abusing
oxycotinin, a prescription
drug for pain, which they now attribute to causing his rapid hearing loss.
I remember when he was still losing his hearing, the doctors thought is was
an auto-immune condition but never saw one progress so fast.

[Ken]

artis wrote:

Rush Limbaugh says that with his cochlear implant he can listen to music he
knew before his auto-immune condition rendered him completely deaf, and hear
it, but music he did not learn when his hearing was normal, he cannot now
decipher or appreciate. A very interesting observation, as he is a former
disk jockey, who now makes talk radio his livelihood.

Artis

Interesting point - I have commented before of the ability of the human
brain to store vast amounts of music - not just the melody line,
harmony and words but the whole performance - the orchestra, the lot -
for hundreds of pieces in my case - maybe thousands. We leave those
horrible little ipod things for dead. I'll bet that many reading this
will recall instances where they have dredged up a song, virtually
complete, which they have not thought of for 20 years or more.

I suspect that people differ widely in this capacity though I would
also suspect that my ability is pretty typical.

[Michael Ridenhour]

"Ken" wrote in message
ps.com...

artis wrote:

Rush Limbaugh says that with his cochlear implant he can listen to music
he
knew before his auto-immune condition rendered him completely deaf, and
hear
it, but music he did not learn when his hearing was normal, he cannot now
decipher or appreciate. A very interesting observation, as he is a former
disk jockey, who now makes talk radio his livelihood.

Artis

Interesting point - I have commented before of the ability of the human
brain to store vast amounts of music - not just the melody line,
harmony and words but the whole performance - the orchestra, the lot -
for hundreds of pieces in my case - maybe thousands. We leave those
horrible little ipod things for dead. I'll bet that many reading this
will recall instances where they have dredged up a song, virtually
complete, which they have not thought of for 20 years or more.

I suspect that people differ widely in this capacity though I would
also suspect that my ability is pretty typical.


Verdi said that opera was far superior to the theater because people could
hear 4 different people sing at once and yet understand each of them. Gives
an interesting slant to music processing in the central mechanism.

Michael

[Michael Ridenhour]

"EOO" whereeverforever.com wrote in message
. ..

"artis" wrote in message
...


Rush Limbaugh says that with his cochlear implant he can listen to music
he knew before his auto-immune condition rendered him completely deaf,
and hear it, but music he did not learn when his hearing was normal, he
cannot now decipher or appreciate. A very interesting observation, as he
is a former disk jockey, who now makes talk radio his livelihood.

Artis

I was under the impression that "America's paragon of virtue" was abusing
oxycotinin, a prescription
drug for pain, which they now attribute to causing his rapid hearing loss.
I remember when he was still losing his hearing, the doctors thought is
was an auto-immune condition but never saw one progress so fast.




Your memory is incorrrect. Mr. Limbaugh, as many others, has a family
history of auto-immune disease. There is no way, short of post mortem exam,
to make such an accusation as you make, so you, nor does anyone else, know
the actual cause of his loss of hearing. Are you happy another human being
has been rendered deaf?

Michael

[Radium]

Ken wrote:
The short answer is 100%. There are thousands of people born without
hearing who can now hear because of cochlear implants. I would expect
that the odds against an implant working on a random person would be
around 0.001% - negligible.

I can say, with some authority, that these people hear. A robin (or a
microwave or a car) chirps and they hear it! A piece of paper falls on
a table and they hear it. In fact a match falls on a table (or a cat
purrs) and it comes through loud and clear.

So in essence, anyone born without functioning hearing, given
expenditure of about $30k, can be given the ability to hear.

Expressed as above, maybe no big deal. But if they can hear an
approaching sparrow or a purring cat, they can also hear a car (or an
angry partner) which/who is about to hit them.

Um. I was talking of a case where the congenitally-deaf patient was
born without any cochlear nerves. So no cochlear implant will help this
patient. Whats the solution now?

[Michael Ridenhour]

"Radium" wrote in message
ups.com...

Ken wrote:
The short answer is 100%. There are thousands of people born without
hearing who can now hear because of cochlear implants. I would expect
that the odds against an implant working on a random person would be
around 0.001% - negligible.

I can say, with some authority, that these people hear. A robin (or a
microwave or a car) chirps and they hear it! A piece of paper falls on
a table and they hear it. In fact a match falls on a table (or a cat
purrs) and it comes through loud and clear.

So in essence, anyone born without functioning hearing, given
expenditure of about $30k, can be given the ability to hear.

Expressed as above, maybe no big deal. But if they can hear an
approaching sparrow or a purring cat, they can also hear a car (or an
angry partner) which/who is about to hit them.

Um. I was talking of a case where the congenitally-deaf patient was
born without any cochlear nerves. So no cochlear implant will help this
patient. Whats the solution now?


One word.
Plastics.

Michael

[Radium]

Michael Ridenhour wrote:
"Radium" wrote in message
ups.com...

Ken wrote:
The short answer is 100%. There are thousands of people born without
hearing who can now hear because of cochlear implants. I would expect
that the odds against an implant working on a random person would be
around 0.001% - negligible.

I can say, with some authority, that these people hear. A robin (or a
microwave or a car) chirps and they hear it! A piece of paper falls on
a table and they hear it. In fact a match falls on a table (or a cat
purrs) and it comes through loud and clear.

So in essence, anyone born without functioning hearing, given
expenditure of about $30k, can be given the ability to hear.

Expressed as above, maybe no big deal. But if they can hear an
approaching sparrow or a purring cat, they can also hear a car (or an
angry partner) which/who is about to hit them.

Um. I was talking of a case where the congenitally-deaf patient was
born without any cochlear nerves. So no cochlear implant will help this
patient. Whats the solution now?


One word.
Plastics.

Michael

I see. One solution is to prevent neuroplasticity from occuring. What
would be the disadvantages of such a solution?

[EOO]

"Michael Ridenhour" wrote in message
...

"EOO" whereeverforever.com wrote in message
. ..

"artis" wrote in message
...


I was under the impression that "America's paragon of virtue" was abusing
oxycotinin, a prescription
drug for pain, which they now attribute to causing his rapid hearing
loss. I remember when he was still losing his hearing, the doctors
thought is was an auto-immune condition but never saw one progress so
fast.




Your memory is incorrrect. Mr. Limbaugh, as many others, has a family
history of auto-immune disease. There is no way, short of post mortem
exam, to make such an accusation as you make, so you, nor does anyone
else, know the actual cause of his loss of hearing. Are you happy another
human being has been rendered deaf?

Michael

No my memory isn't incorrect. There was a discussion with a specialist in
the field ( I did not catch his name, nor do I remember the exact date) on
the radio concerning Mr. Limbaugh's condition and he was amazed how fast the
progression was. At the time they thought it was auto-immune.
Now there is reason to believe he did it to himself by abusing oxycotinin.
Mr. Limbaugh is an asshole about 2/3's of the day. The other 1/3 he is
probably asleep. During his waking hours he is busy conjuring up moral
judgments on just about everyone on the planet outside of the Republican
party.
I find it humorous that he got caught abusing prescription drugs. After
all, a good, moral Republican and Christian like your hero would never do
such a thing.
Nowhere did I mention I was happy about his hearing loss.

Now what else do you want to assume?

[ian.vitro]

I am not sure it would be possible for someone born with no cochlear
nerve to ever hear, unless an implant far beyond what we have now were
implanted very early in life - say during the first three years or so.
There is tons of evidence showing that acquisition of phoneme
distinction, the building block of comprehension, is established very
early in life. Again, like Hubel and Weisel`s Nobel-winning work shows,
pieces of cortex that do not get used for their "normal" function are
taken over by adjacent areas for increases in function. Limbaugh`s
observation is interesting, and suggests the same thing - you can hear
music that you know, because it is still in memoy and brains are very
good at pattern completion; but new music ends up being beyond you -
presumably because you lack the resolution to make out all of the
different frequencies.

Blocking neuroplasticity would be the worst thing you could ever do.
You would eliminate learning of any kind. Eliminate the ability of
brains to recover after strokes or other infarcts. You would, in
essence, block the thing that makes brains so bloody useful. Even Rush
Limbaugh`s (well, it`s useful to him!).

Ian Vitro

[Michael Ridenhour]

"EOO" whereeverforever.com wrote in message
. ..

"Michael Ridenhour" wrote in message
...

"EOO" whereeverforever.com wrote in message
. ..

"artis" wrote in message
...


I was under the impression that "America's paragon of virtue" was
abusing oxycotinin, a prescription
drug for pain, which they now attribute to causing his rapid hearing
loss. I remember when he was still losing his hearing, the doctors
thought is was an auto-immune condition but never saw one progress so
fast.




Your memory is incorrrect. Mr. Limbaugh, as many others, has a family
history of auto-immune disease. There is no way, short of post mortem
exam, to make such an accusation as you make, so you, nor does anyone
else, know the actual cause of his loss of hearing. Are you happy another
human being has been rendered deaf?

Michael

No my memory isn't incorrect. There was a discussion with a specialist in
the field ( I did not catch his name, nor do I remember the exact date) on
the radio concerning Mr. Limbaugh's condition and he was amazed how fast
the progression was. At the time they thought it was auto-immune.
Now there is reason to believe he did it to himself by abusing oxycotinin.
Mr. Limbaugh is an asshole about 2/3's of the day. The other 1/3 he is
probably asleep. During his waking hours he is busy conjuring up moral
judgments on just about everyone on the planet outside of the Republican
party.
I find it humorous that he got caught abusing prescription drugs. After
all, a good, moral Republican and Christian like your hero would never do
such a thing.
Nowhere did I mention I was happy about his hearing loss.

Now what else do you want to assume?


Odd. I never said this fellow was my hero. I just used information from the
Associated Press concerning his loss and my statement is a quote from one of
the physicians consulted by the AP.
You have a tremendous amount of hate in you sir.
Perhaps anger management might be in order?

Michael

[Michael Ridenhour]

"ian.vitro" wrote in message
ups.com...
I am not sure it would be possible for someone born with no cochlear
nerve to ever hear, unless an implant far beyond what we have now were
implanted very early in life - say during the first three years or so.
There is tons of evidence showing that acquisition of phoneme
distinction, the building block of comprehension, is established very
early in life. Again, like Hubel and Weisel`s Nobel-winning work shows,
pieces of cortex that do not get used for their "normal" function are
taken over by adjacent areas for increases in function. Limbaugh`s
observation is interesting, and suggests the same thing - you can hear
music that you know, because it is still in memoy and brains are very
good at pattern completion; but new music ends up being beyond you -
presumably because you lack the resolution to make out all of the
different frequencies.

Blocking neuroplasticity would be the worst thing you could ever do.
You would eliminate learning of any kind. Eliminate the ability of
brains to recover after strokes or other infarcts. You would, in
essence, block the thing that makes brains so bloody useful. Even Rush
Limbaugh`s (well, it`s useful to him!).

Ian Vitro


Gosh, two slurs against Limbaugh. I'll have to start listening to his show.
To engender such a visceral response from people he must be quite
interesting.

Michael

[Radiosrfun]

"Michael Ridenhour" wrote in message
...

"ian.vitro" wrote in message
ups.com...
I am not sure it would be possible for someone born with no cochlear
nerve to ever hear, unless an implant far beyond what we have now were
implanted very early in life - say during the first three years or so.
There is tons of evidence showing that acquisition of phoneme
distinction, the building block of comprehension, is established very
early in life. Again, like Hubel and Weisel`s Nobel-winning work shows,
pieces of cortex that do not get used for their "normal" function are
taken over by adjacent areas for increases in function. Limbaugh`s
observation is interesting, and suggests the same thing - you can hear
music that you know, because it is still in memoy and brains are very
good at pattern completion; but new music ends up being beyond you -
presumably because you lack the resolution to make out all of the
different frequencies.

Blocking neuroplasticity would be the worst thing you could ever do.
You would eliminate learning of any kind. Eliminate the ability of
brains to recover after strokes or other infarcts. You would, in
essence, block the thing that makes brains so bloody useful. Even Rush
Limbaugh`s (well, it`s useful to him!).

Ian Vitro


Gosh, two slurs against Limbaugh. I'll have to start listening to his
show. To engender such a visceral response from people he must be quite
interesting.

Michael

A good friend of mine used to listen to ole Rush almost religiously. I gave
the guy a chance. I found him to be a loud mouth - full of crap - self
centered - egotistical - ass. IF he can do better than those he opposes -
why then - doesn't he "run" for the job? Truth is, he like so many "talk
show" hosts - can talk a good game - but bottom line - don't have the balls
to try to make change. And THEN - to be caught doing drugs and oh gee - with
a bottle of Viagra or was it a "penis pump" - at the airport - THAT IS A
HOOT!!!!!!!!!! He just went to show - he is NOT any better than those he put
down - including any one calling in to his show to whom he opposed. It never
fails - those who place themselves above all others - ALWAYS fall - and fall
HARD. Ya got to love it!

[Michael A. Terrell]

Michael Ridenhour wrote:

Gosh, two slurs against Limbaugh. I'll have to start listening to his show.
To engender such a visceral response from people he must be quite
interesting.

Michael


Only to people with no life, or desire to think for themselves. If
they could bottle his show it would put the sleeping pill companies out
of business. The test pattern at the old TV station I worked at was
more interesting.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

[Michael Ridenhour]

Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Lots of guys have served their country, including me.
Most don't brag about it.

Michael R.

[Steve B.]

Michael Ridenhour said:

Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Lots of guys have served their country, including me.
Most don't brag about it.

You just did! Your point would have been made without "including me".

Steve = : ^ )

[Michael Ridenhour]

"Steve B." wrote in message
...
Michael Ridenhour said:

Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Lots of guys have served their country, including me.
Most don't brag about it.

You just did! Your point would have been made without "including me".

Steve = : ^ )


Right. That's why I said "lots of guys". There was no mention of the
braggart association being singular.
Nice catch.
You should be very proud of your fairness sensitivity.

Micghael R.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Michael Ridenhour wrote:

Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Lots of guys have served their country, including me.
Most don't brag about it.

Michael R.


It is there to remind a net stalker that he hasn't been able to have
my internet account closed, or stop my all volunteer project to help
very low income disabled Veterans receive a computer for free. We
collect, repair, and give away computers to these men and women in the
Central FLorida area. The stalker has made numerous phone calls from
Ontario, Oregon to a church that was listed as a drop-off point, and to
government agencies to try to get them to shut us down.

The other reason is that some newsgroups I visit are full of anti
American morons who delight in damning our military so its only fair to
warn them before I tear into their sorry asses.

It is not a brag, it is simple fact. I am old, 100% disabled, and
damn sick and tired of the crap I hear heaped on our troops.

You served? Good for you. What branch, and what did you do? I was a
broadcast engineer for AFRTS. No downtime allowed and no support, in a
hostile environment. I made some good friends, and saw places I never
would have traveled to.

BTW, I haven't seen the name Ridenhour since I graduated from high
school. Our dean of boys was named Dale Ridenhour.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

[Michael Ridenhour]

Michael,
My apologies to a fellow real veteran. I served 4 in the Air Force at TAC
Headquarters. I volunteered for war zone service (hey, I was young), but was
turned down 10 times because I was "critical". Nonsense of course, but DOD
policy. And the average life of a helicopter pilot in Viet Nam (where I was
hoping to go) was about 8 weeks. Sounded terribly exciting to me at 20.
My hats off to you and I'm sorry, I didn't realize the tag line had an
actual function.

Michael R.

BTW, where was Dale from? Missouri?


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Michael Ridenhour wrote:

Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Lots of guys have served their country, including me.
Most don't brag about it.

Michael R.


It is there to remind a net stalker that he hasn't been able to have
my internet account closed, or stop my all volunteer project to help
very low income disabled Veterans receive a computer for free. We
collect, repair, and give away computers to these men and women in the
Central FLorida area. The stalker has made numerous phone calls from
Ontario, Oregon to a church that was listed as a drop-off point, and to
government agencies to try to get them to shut us down.

The other reason is that some newsgroups I visit are full of anti
American morons who delight in damning our military so its only fair to
warn them before I tear into their sorry asses.

It is not a brag, it is simple fact. I am old, 100% disabled, and
damn sick and tired of the crap I hear heaped on our troops.

You served? Good for you. What branch, and what did you do? I was a
broadcast engineer for AFRTS. No downtime allowed and no support, in a
hostile environment. I made some good friends, and saw places I never
would have traveled to.

BTW, I haven't seen the name Ridenhour since I graduated from high
school. Our dean of boys was named Dale Ridenhour.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

[Michael A. Terrell]

Michael Ridenhour wrote:

Michael,
My apologies to a fellow real veteran. I served 4 in the Air Force at TAC
Headquarters. I volunteered for war zone service (hey, I was young), but was
turned down 10 times because I was "critical". Nonsense of course, but DOD
policy. And the average life of a helicopter pilot in Viet Nam (where I was
hoping to go) was about 8 weeks. Sounded terribly exciting to me at 20.

I also worked on the "Weather Vision" system at Ft. Rucker, Al. in
the early '70s, for the helicopter flight and air traffic control
schools. It was at Cairn Airfield, about five miles from the main base.


My hats off to you and I'm sorry, I didn't realize the tag line had an
actual function.


No problem. There are a very high number of Veterans in my area, and
we are quite involved in the community. While online, I want others to
know that US Veterans have nothing to be ashamed of. I also had some
drunken moron claim that I had never served, then claimed that I wasn't
a veteran because I never saw combat. Current numbers show that only
one out of seven who serve in the military ever see combat, but many die
from accidents and never saw a battlefield.


BTW, where was Dale from? Missouri?

Monroe, Ohio.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

[artis]

Current numbers show that only
one out of seven who serve in the military ever see combat, but many die
from accidents and never saw a battlefield.--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida


Hey Terrell,
I have a brother in Central Florida who worked at Da Nang as an aircraft
mechanic. Is that considered seeing a battlefield by the narrow minds you
have to put up with? He had to go into a trench beside the planes during
attacks by the VC, but finally decided that if a bullet hit the fully loaded
jet he was lying beside, he'd be in little pieces anyway, so he kept
working. His girlfriend in town was killed by a mortar from the loving
freedom fighters of Ho Chi Minh, who targeted civilians because they didn't
shoot back. Like al Qaeda does today.

Artis