[TomTheGeek]

I just want to run this by someone to verify that it's working how I
think it is.

I have a sub with a Class D monoblock amp and a stiffening cap. The cap
has the standard voltage meter on the top. With the volume turned low
the voltage meter on the cap shows a steady 12v. With the volume turned
up and the bass really kicking the voltage will fluctuate with the
bass, dropping to around 10v or so occasionally.

My interpretation of this is that at low volumes there is little draw
on the electrical system so the amp doesn't need to pull from the cap
or it's pulling so little the voltage meter isn't sensitive enough to
notice it. At louder volumes the amp is stressing the system and the
cap is doing it's job supplying the extra power therby lowering it's
voltage. If that is correct then you can say that if the voltage meter
was getting to around 0v then I would need a bigger capacitor.

But for all that to be true the voltage meter on the cap would have to
be measuring only the voltage of the cap, not the whole system. To me
this sounds wrong, but I don't know.

Do I need a bigger alternator or a bigger cap, or is it working like it
should and my theory is correct? I bought the cap to ease the load on
the electrical system, not to gain SPL.

[KU40]

the cap meter shows the voltage of your entire system, not just the
charge that the cap has. so if you're at 12 volts at idle......that's
not good, and dipping down to 10 on large bass notes is very bad. What
amps are you running, what size is your alternator, and what size is
your power/ground wires?


--
KU40

[bob wald]

well i didnt read your every word but i know people will tell you a cap
pulls more power from a overworked alt. those people know NOTHING.
your alt is power 24/7. you cap isn't.
and never go below a 1.2 cap.EVER...
my mininium is 2.0....
you want your cap to help you.right.
better to have too much cap than too lil.

[Captain Howdy]

It is totally normal for the voltage to fluctuate a little, mind you a 2 volt
drop is a little too much for my liking. Caps do not give you extra voltage,
what they do is they give you extra amperage (faster flow). Higher the volume
the more amperage is drawn by your amplifier. As the requirement for amperage
increases voltage will drop due to the limitations of the electrical and
charging system and also due to the limitations on the cap.
The only advantage of a cap is that is can provide a faster flow of amperage
then your battery for a short length of time before it has to be recharged
again. The bigger the cap the longer it can provide amperage to your
amplifier. The display on your cap shows your system total voltage, as your
cap can not charge to a higher voltage then what your charging system has to
offer it.

Without more info it's hard to say what you need to upgrade. What size is the
power cable running to your amplifiers? What is the rms wattage of your
amplifier? What amperage is your alternator rated at ? What is your battery
rated at and is it performing to spec? (have your battery tested to make sure
it's within specs, even if it's newer). Are you having starting or headlight
dimming issues?




In article .com,
"TomTheGeek" wrote:
I just want to run this by someone to verify that it's working how I
think it is.

I have a sub with a Class D monoblock amp and a stiffening cap. The cap
has the standard voltage meter on the top. With the volume turned low
the voltage meter on the cap shows a steady 12v. With the volume turned
up and the bass really kicking the voltage will fluctuate with the
bass, dropping to around 10v or so occasionally.





My interpretation of this is that at low volumes there is little draw
on the electrical system so the amp doesn't need to pull from the cap
or it's pulling so little the voltage meter isn't sensitive enough to
notice it. At louder volumes the amp is stressing the system and the
cap is doing it's job supplying the extra power therby lowering it's
voltage. If that is correct then you can say that if the voltage meter
was getting to around 0v then I would need a bigger capacitor.

But for all that to be true the voltage meter on the cap would have to
be measuring only the voltage of the cap, not the whole system. To me
this sounds wrong, but I don't know.

Do I need a bigger alternator or a bigger cap, or is it working like it
should and my theory is correct? I bought the cap to ease the load on
the electrical system, not to gain SPL.

[bob wald]

alt. is powering 24/7. you cap isnt charging all the time.
as long as your cap isnt too big.like over 3cap. you should be ok.
just check all your power connections. use good wires on all power
lines. good grounds too.
but if you use a 3+cap. just run your car alil more with your stereo
off.
now if you wimp out n get like a .5cap..lol
well itll be struggling to keep charged.n to help your system. but it
wont be hard to charge.n alot of people like that.
but i think itll wear out sooner. charging like 80-100 times aday.
i mean charging 50% or more.

[Grimmis1027]

TomTheGeek wrote:

I have a sub with a Class D monoblock amp and a stiffening cap. The cap
has the standard voltage meter on the top. With the volume turned low
the voltage meter on the cap shows a steady 12v. With the volume turned
up and the bass really kicking the voltage will fluctuate with the
bass, dropping to around 10v or so occasionally.

Hi, may I ask if the cap is in the trunk when you look at it and if
the car is running at idle when you crank it up ??.

I'm asking because I think most alternators don't produce very much
power when at idle, so it could be easy for the amp to pull the voltage
down.

[Grimmis1027]

bob wald wrote:

well i didnt read your every word but i know people will tell you a cap
pulls more power from a overworked alt. those people know NOTHING.
your alt is power 24/7. you cap isn't.

Bob, a cap doesn't charge or pull power all the time, only when it's
discharged, but it will charge when the voltage level raises and try to
keep it there.

Does your alternator provide power when it's not running ??, not
likely, it may also not provide much power at idle either.

[Luda]

yea, my system dropt to about 10.5 V on heavy bass, and then it resets
my HU, so yea... im just getting a new car...

ON TOPIC: The Cap is measuring the V of the powerline going to it, thus
of you entire system. @ idle it should be 14.4V/ it take anything above
13.5 though, but if its dropping that bad then you need a bigger alt.
caps are fine and all, but there only good if you drop for a second or
two. if you dropping all the time then you need more juice.


--
Luda

[Tony F]

Ignore Bob Wald's post. He doesn't know what he's talking about (as if you
haven't figured that out on your own).

Tony


--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1
Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear
Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub

2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC
Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub

2006 Mustang GT Coupe
Alpine IVA-D310 DVD Head Unit, Alpine MRA-550 Digital 5.1 Amp, Boston
Acoustics Z-Series Speakers, Alpine SBS-05DC Center Channel Speaker,
Amplified MTX Thunderform Sub

[Ravo]

For the most part, external capacitors are totally unnecessary. All
amplifiers have their own built in capacitance that works quite well.


--
Ravo

[Luda]

^^^ Caps are pretty... well not really.... i hate caps and see no need
for them. but people continue to insist they make stuff louder.


--
Luda

[Matt Ion]

Ravo wrote:
For the most part, external capacitors are totally unnecessary. All
amplifiers have their own built in capacitance that works quite well.

Finally, an intelligent answer on this thread.

If your voltage is dropping, it's because your alternator isn't
producing enough current, period. Caps and additional batteries will
not solve the problem, they'll only mask the symptom. The ONLY fix is
an alternator that's capable of producing sufficient current.

[bob wald]

of coarse i know your alt isnt charging when its off goomer...lol
but its charging when ta stereo is off...

[Captain Howdy]

Wow, how many threads have already covered this topic over the years?
This is just an observation. Most of the people "arguing" on one side or
another, don't really seem to FULLY understand caps. Most people are arguing
opinions. Opinions are like assholes, everyone got em. But for some reason
people here are turning their opinions into a crusade, they're a vital part of
ANY amps power supply, but the manufacturers must have put them in there just
to raise the price. If a cap helps with voltage drops at any point, the
amplifier should have more wattage output, even if the cap only makes a 0.5 of
a volt difference. In some amplifiers a 0.5 volt difference could cost you a
100 or more watts.


I guess my rant really is in disbelief that so many uneducated people are
forcing their opinions on other people. If you like caps, use them, enjoy
them. If you don't like them, don't use them. Its as simple as that. My only
advice is to listen to a system before and after installing a cap and be your
own judge.

[Luda]

im not forcing my opinion, im just stating what ive seen. they do have
there place, since a charging system isnt a constant Voltage a cap can
help smooth that out, but its not a replacement for a good HO
alternator


--
Luda

[Captain Howdy]

I totally agree, and too many people buy caps to aid their ill electrical
systems. Then they bitch and moan that caps don't work.

In article , Luda
wrote:

im not forcing my opinion, im just stating what ive seen. they do have
there place, since a charging system isnt a constant Voltage a cap can
help smooth that out, but its not a replacement for a good HO
alternator

[bob wald]

caps offer you more power faster. end of story. its not a fix a starving
system that needs power.
i'd never spend over $100 for 1 cap. my rule get the best cap you can
for $99.
i did lanzar 2.4cap....i'd buy a cap from a solid company who has big
amps to supply.
like lanzar- hifonics-rf-lightining audio-orion....

[bob wald]

oops guess i shoulda read the last 2 posts before i posted..lol

[MOSFET]

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...

I totally agree, and too many people buy caps to aid their ill electrical
systems. Then they bitch and moan that caps don't work.

Howdy is very sensitive to bitching and moaning.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

"Ravo" wrote in message
...

For the most part, external capacitors are totally unnecessary. All
amplifiers have their own built in capacitance that works quite well.


Ok, all I'm going to say is that I have 4 farads in my system. With the
caps out, my headlights dim and my voltage fluctuates when I play bassy
music at MODERATE volume levels. With the caps in, the voltage is
rock-solid and the headlights DO NOT dim at MODERATE volume levels. At HIGH
volume levels, the caps make no difference.

So, are caps a substitute for a HO alternator? No. They DO NOT produce
current. But I have found they can help smooth out fluctuations in current
draw UP TO A POINT. In other words, they DO HELP, up to a point.

MOSFET

[Catain Howdy]

Not as sensitive as Mosfet is to his ghetto fab gear.

In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...

I totally agree, and too many people buy caps to aid their ill electrical
systems. Then they bitch and moan that caps don't work.

Howdy is very sensitive to bitching and moaning.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

Not as sensitive as Mosfet is to his ghetto fab gear.

Ghetto Fab is FAB-U-LOUS!!!!!

MOSFET

[Captain Howdy]

That it is in the ghetto.


In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Not as sensitive as Mosfet is to his ghetto fab gear.

Ghetto Fab is FAB-U-LOUS!!!!!

MOSFET

[eezip]

Actually Howdy, there are people out there [here] with actual electrical
design experience who's opinions are based off of actual measurements
and experience and can speaker authoritatively about the benefits of
caps. Online, it is hard to determine who really knows their stuff.

If I might add mine into the mix: Audio has very high crest factors.
This means that while peak power output is high, average [RMS] output
power is about 1/8 peak power for full range and up to 1/3 peak power
for bass or other signals which can be audibly tolerated at moderate
clipping levels. The crest factor also varies with the type of music.
This means that while the peak power is fixed by the rail voltage, the
long term output power is determined by the rail capacitance and the
power supply [because the power supply topology determines at what rate
the rail is replenished]. Real world music signals do not contain enough
continuous signal to pull the rail voltage from idle very much. So, if a
manufacturer quotes a RMS power output, and it's valid, you will see
more power than that rating being delivered to your speakers with music
signals. What it all comes down to is that only highly compressed, low
frequency music signals or test signals contain enough continuous
information to make external capacitors have any effect. Besides, the
power ratings the amplifier manufacturer gives are with the internal
capacitance and adding more to that won't provide any more rail
voltage, you won't see much [probably none] additional output power
from provide an external capacitor a long way away from where the power
is being used.

To the OP, long term power is determined by how much current the
electrical system can source. And peak power is determined by the
amplifier's power rails. Therefore, if you're seeing a large voltage
drop you need to add more current output to the electrical system. A
capacitor is just slightly [if at all] slowing the voltage fluctuations
on the power line going to the amp. Because music has such a high crest
factor a cap doesn't buy you much, if anything. If you are seeing large
voltage swings, and especially if components are cutting out, you need
to add more current capacity to the electrical system. Beefing up the
amount of wire carrying the current also helps, but not by so much
since the continuous power is low. You can safely choose wire based on
temperature and not ampacity.


--
eezip

[MOSFET]

Uh oh, Howdy, this could be YET another guy who thinks you're a jerk. Just
three more and I'll have it mathematically proven (right now it's only a
theorem).

MOSFET

"eezip" wrote in message
...

Actually Howdy, there are people out there [here] with actual electrical
design experience who's opinions are based off of actual measurements
and experience and can speaker authoritatively about the benefits of
caps. Online, it is hard to determine who really knows their stuff.

If I might add mine into the mix: Audio has very high crest factors.
This means that while peak power output is high, average [RMS] output
power is about 1/8 peak power for full range and up to 1/3 peak power
for bass or other signals which can be audibly tolerated at moderate
clipping levels. The crest factor also varies with the type of music.
This means that while the peak power is fixed by the rail voltage, the
long term output power is determined by the rail capacitance and the
power supply [because the power supply topology determines at what rate
the rail is replenished]. Real world music signals do not contain enough
continuous signal to pull the rail voltage from idle very much. So, if a
manufacturer quotes a RMS power output, and it's valid, you will see
more power than that rating being delivered to your speakers with music
signals. What it all comes down to is that only highly compressed, low
frequency music signals or test signals contain enough continuous
information to make external capacitors have any effect. Besides, the
power ratings the amplifier manufacturer gives are with the internal
capacitance and adding more to that won't provide any more rail
voltage, you won't see much [probably none] additional output power
from provide an external capacitor a long way away from where the power
is being used.

To the OP, long term power is determined by how much current the
electrical system can source. And peak power is determined by the
amplifier's power rails. Therefore, if you're seeing a large voltage
drop you need to add more current output to the electrical system. A
capacitor is just slightly [if at all] slowing the voltage fluctuations
on the power line going to the amp. Because music has such a high crest
factor a cap doesn't buy you much, if anything. If you are seeing large
voltage swings, and especially if components are cutting out, you need
to add more current capacity to the electrical system. Beefing up the
amount of wire carrying the current also helps, but not by so much
since the continuous power is low. You can safely choose wire based on
temperature and not ampacity.


--
eezip

[Captain Howdy]

What exactly are "Real world music signals"? These Real world music signals do
not contain enough continuous signal to pull the rail voltage from idle very
much in who's car and with what amount of amplification? Some people can't
seem to get any woofer moment playing ABBA's Waterloo, I can make it bump.
This leads me to believe that everyone doesn't have the same current draw
playing the same music. Car audio is not standardized to make predictions
that easy.

Having said all of this, I have a single 6farad cap in my car, helping to keep
4Kwatts of power bumping along. I have also upgraded all the wiring under the
hood, installed two Optima yellow top batteries and a 200amp alternator. The
voltmeter never even twitches, no matter how loud I turn it up while driving,
headlights on and or A/C running doesn't matter. At idle with the system
cranked, I have seen about a 1 volt drop without the cap, with the cap, I
rarely see a half a volt drop. I would say that it makes a difference.



In article , eezip
wrote:

Actually Howdy, there are people out there [here] with actual electrical
design experience who's opinions are based off of actual measurements
and experience and can speaker authoritatively about the benefits of
caps. Online, it is hard to determine who really knows their stuff.

If I might add mine into the mix: Audio has very high crest factors.
This means that while peak power output is high, average [RMS] output
power is about 1/8 peak power for full range and up to 1/3 peak power
for bass or other signals which can be audibly tolerated at moderate
clipping levels. The crest factor also varies with the type of music.
This means that while the peak power is fixed by the rail voltage, the
long term output power is determined by the rail capacitance and the
power supply [because the power supply topology determines at what rate
the rail is replenished]. Real world music signals do not contain enough
continuous signal to pull the rail voltage from idle very much. So, if a
manufacturer quotes a RMS power output, and it's valid, you will see
more power than that rating being delivered to your speakers with music
signals. What it all comes down to is that only highly compressed, low
frequency music signals or test signals contain enough continuous
information to make external capacitors have any effect. Besides, the
power ratings the amplifier manufacturer gives are with the internal
capacitance and adding more to that won't provide any more rail
voltage, you won't see much [probably none] additional output power
from provide an external capacitor a long way away from where the power
is being used.

To the OP, long term power is determined by how much current the
electrical system can source. And peak power is determined by the
amplifier's power rails. Therefore, if you're seeing a large voltage
drop you need to add more current output to the electrical system. A
capacitor is just slightly [if at all] slowing the voltage fluctuations
on the power line going to the amp. Because music has such a high crest
factor a cap doesn't buy you much, if anything. If you are seeing large
voltage swings, and especially if components are cutting out, you need
to add more current capacity to the electrical system. Beefing up the
amount of wire carrying the current also helps, but not by so much
since the continuous power is low. You can safely choose wire based on
temperature and not ampacity.

[MOSFET]

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
What exactly are "Real world music signals"? These Real world music
signals do
not contain enough continuous signal to pull the rail voltage from idle
very
much in who's car and with what amount of amplification? Some people
can't
seem to get any woofer moment playing ABBA's Waterloo, I can make it bump.
This leads me to believe that everyone doesn't have the same current draw
playing the same music. Car audio is not standardized to make predictions
that easy.

Having said all of this, I have a single 6farad cap in my car, helping to
keep
4Kwatts of power bumping along. I have also upgraded all the wiring under
the
hood, installed two Optima yellow top batteries and a 200amp alternator.
The
voltmeter never even twitches, no matter how loud I turn it up while
driving,
headlights on and or A/C running doesn't matter. At idle with the system
cranked, I have seen about a 1 volt drop without the cap, with the cap, I
rarely see a half a volt drop. I would say that it makes a difference.

Yes, and he can make pennies dance on the hood of his car. Which is REALLY
what car audio is all about and why you need 4k watts of power.

MOSFET

[Captain Howdy]

Hey jerkskin while on topic, Why not just patch your cheesy electrical system
with another 5 year old optima and another ten .5 farad capacitors? Break the
bank spend another buck.



In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Uh oh, Howdy, this could be YET another guy who thinks you're a jerk. Just
three more and I'll have it mathematically proven (right now it's only a
theorem).

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

Oh, I know, Howdy. Unless one can spend thousands and thousands they just
shouldn't even have a system, right?

You really are TOO funny. I don't know how old you are, but you act about
15.

One of these days, it's going to occur to you, that like music, there is no
RIGHT way to do car audio. Sure, there are some basic electrical
pricinciples that must be followed, but beyond that, there is no BEST WAY.
Right now, you seem stuck in the paradigm that unless you spend thousands,
have a huge alternator, multi-kilowatts of power, and can make pennies dance
on the hood of your car, your system is ****. Some day you will grow up and
realize that just as everyone enjoys different types of music, everyone has
different budgets, different needs, different priorities, etc. It really
all boils down to "whatever floats your boat". I don't have thousands to
spend on a car stereo, so I am forced to make compromises. But to me,
that's EXACTLY what makes it FUN!!! It's fun being creative! It's fun
saving money! You just don't get it. I'm proud, Howdy, yes ****er, PROUD
of my system chiefly BECAUSE of how little I have had to spend on it (and I
did all the installation myself), yet it sounds awesome!!! I have
absolutely no idea what your ON GOING Ghetto-fab infatuation with me is.
Perhaps, I represent some nagging part of your brain that is telling you
that you have wasted THOUSANDS of dollars. Perhaps deep down you know you
could have spent a FRACTION and still gained just as much enjoyment from the
MUSIC. Because, it is ALL ABOUT MUSIC, not dancing pennies, or blowing
hankies.

But I do enjoy our discussions, Howdy. You have made this group MUCH more
interesting for me (like Bob).

MOSFET

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Hey jerkskin while on topic, Why not just patch your cheesy electrical
system
with another 5 year old optima and another ten .5 farad capacitors? Break
the
bank spend another buck.



In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Uh oh, Howdy, this could be YET another guy who thinks you're a jerk.
Just
three more and I'll have it mathematically proven (right now it's only a
theorem).

MOSFET

[Captain Howdy]

Make pennies dance on the hood of his car? Just like many others, I like a
little SPL in my car. I know that your wife likes a little SPL also, only
problem is your junk starts smoking when turned up. OOPS!!! Which is REALLY
what car audio is all about. Hey everyone look at my husband's sound system!!!
The smoke is just a special effect. Honestly, it's one thing to embarrass
yourself, but to embarrass your wife with your trash is going a little too
far. LOL

In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:


Yes, and he can make pennies dance on the hood of his car. Which is REALLY
what car audio is all about and why you need 4k watts of power.

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

"Captain Make pennies dance on the hood of his car? Just like many others,
I like a
little SPL in my car. I know that your wife likes a little SPL also, only
problem is your junk starts smoking when turned up. OOPS!!! Which is
REALLY
what car audio is all about. Hey everyone look at my husband's sound
system!!!
The smoke is just a special effect. Honestly, it's one thing to embarrass
yourself, but to embarrass your wife with your trash is going a little too
far. LOL

Wow. You've really gone off the deep end (half of that doesn't make any
sense). You are in SERIOUS Bob-country now.

MOSFET

[Captain Howdy]

I feel the same about you, you're as funny as they come. I like all kinds of
music, well other then country. I agree some people do have different
priorities and blowing up tweeters might float their boat, I personally think
that blowing up woofers is manlier. I did all the installation myself just as
you did, car alarm and sub enclosure included. I just thought that using an
enclosure that was made for totally different woofers then what I was using
would not yield the best performance. As for the alarm, I just didn't want to
upgrade to something better then what I had stolen to make myself feel better
whenever something got stolen 20 times over. I just didn't make sense up
upgrade the next thief as well.

By the way those were Canadian one and two dollar coins and that was my old
system. I'm proud that you are proud of your system, it's really nice. LOL
What's that old saying? It goes something like YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.





In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Oh, I know, Howdy. Unless one can spend thousands and thousands they just
shouldn't even have a system, right?

You really are TOO funny. I don't know how old you are, but you act about
15.

One of these days, it's going to occur to you, that like music, there is no
RIGHT way to do car audio. Sure, there are some basic electrical
pricinciples that must be followed, but beyond that, there is no BEST WAY.
Right now, you seem stuck in the paradigm that unless you spend thousands,
have a huge alternator, multi-kilowatts of power, and can make pennies dance
on the hood of your car, your system is ****. Some day you will grow up and
realize that just as everyone enjoys different types of music, everyone has
different budgets, different needs, different priorities, etc. It really
all boils down to "whatever floats your boat". I don't have thousands to
spend on a car stereo, so I am forced to make compromises. But to me,
that's EXACTLY what makes it FUN!!! It's fun being creative! It's fun
saving money! You just don't get it. I'm proud, Howdy, yes ****er, PROUD
of my system chiefly BECAUSE of how little I have had to spend on it (and I
did all the installation myself), yet it sounds awesome!!! I have
absolutely no idea what your ON GOING Ghetto-fab infatuation with me is.
Perhaps, I represent some nagging part of your brain that is telling you
that you have wasted THOUSANDS of dollars. Perhaps deep down you know you
could have spent a FRACTION and still gained just as much enjoyment from the
MUSIC. Because, it is ALL ABOUT MUSIC, not dancing pennies, or blowing
hankies.

But I do enjoy our discussions, Howdy. You have made this group MUCH more
interesting for me (like Bob).

MOSFET

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
.. .
Hey jerkskin while on topic, Why not just patch your cheesy electrical
system
with another 5 year old optima and another ten .5 farad capacitors? Break
the
bank spend another buck.



In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Uh oh, Howdy, this could be YET another guy who thinks you're a jerk.
Just
three more and I'll have it mathematically proven (right now it's only a
theorem).

MOSFET

[Captain Howdy]

You wish it didn't.


In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:

"Captain Make pennies dance on the hood of his car? Just like many others,
I like a
little SPL in my car. I know that your wife likes a little SPL also, only
problem is your junk starts smoking when turned up. OOPS!!! Which is
REALLY
what car audio is all about. Hey everyone look at my husband's sound
system!!!
The smoke is just a special effect. Honestly, it's one thing to embarrass
yourself, but to embarrass your wife with your trash is going a little too
far. LOL

Wow. You've really gone off the deep end (half of that doesn't make any
sense). You are in SERIOUS Bob-country now.

MOSFET

[Death By Bass]

eezip Wrote:
Actually Howdy, there are people out there [here] with actual electrical
design experience who's opinions are based off of actual measurements
and experience and can speaker authoritatively about the benefits of
caps. Online, it is hard to determine who really knows their stuff.


no, they cant, because there IS NO benefit is using a 1 farad or so
cap, on a poor electrical system. the only time its going to make a
difference, is if your battery is already fuxored, and it will reduce
the ripple, and alternator noise, but thats only if your battery is
already screwed!


--
Death By Bass

[MOSFET]

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...


.. I agree some people do have different
priorities and blowing up tweeters might float their boat, I personally
think
that blowing up woofers is manlier.

How old did you say you were? Read that sentance to yourself again, Howdy.
Are you proud of that statement?

I did all the installation myself just as
you did, car alarm and sub enclosure included. I just thought that using
an
enclosure that was made for totally different woofers then what I was
using
would not yield the best performance. As for the alarm, I just didn't want
to
upgrade to something better then what I had stolen to make myself feel
better
whenever something got stolen 20 times over. I just didn't make sense up
upgrade the next thief as well.

By the way those were Canadian one and two dollar coins and that was my
old
system.

YES!!! LOL I wrote pennies on purpose because I KNEW (well, fairly
certain) that you would say they weren't pennies but big honkin coins. I
can read you like a book.

You are TOO FUN!

MOSFET

[MOSFET]

Steve Brown is guy I really admire. Does he still have a column in CA&E
(Competitor's Corner)? I don't get that mag any more but I used to love
reading his stuff. His Acura Legend is/was a real LEGEND. And yes, I've
seen some of his work for Alpine, really amazing stuff (like Dave Rivera).

MOSFET

"I. Care" wrote in message
.net...
In article ,
says...
Oh, I know, Howdy. Unless one can spend thousands and thousands they
just
shouldn't even have a system, right?

You really are TOO funny. I don't know how old you are, but you act
about
15.

One of these days, it's going to occur to you, that like music, there is
no
RIGHT way to do car audio. Sure, there are some basic electrical
pricinciples that must be followed, but beyond that, there is no BEST
WAY.
Right now, you seem stuck in the paradigm that unless you spend
thousands,
have a huge alternator, multi-kilowatts of power, and can make pennies
dance
on the hood of your car, your system is ****. Some day you will grow up
and
realize that just as everyone enjoys different types of music, everyone
has
different budgets, different needs, different priorities, etc. It really
all boils down to "whatever floats your boat". I don't have thousands to
spend on a car stereo, so I am forced to make compromises. But to me,
that's EXACTLY what makes it FUN!!! It's fun being creative! It's fun
saving money! You just don't get it. I'm proud, Howdy, yes ****er,
PROUD
of my system chiefly BECAUSE of how little I have had to spend on it (and
I
did all the installation myself), yet it sounds awesome!!! I have
absolutely no idea what your ON GOING Ghetto-fab infatuation with me is.
Perhaps, I represent some nagging part of your brain that is telling you
that you have wasted THOUSANDS of dollars. Perhaps deep down you know
you
could have spent a FRACTION and still gained just as much enjoyment from
the
MUSIC. Because, it is ALL ABOUT MUSIC, not dancing pennies, or blowing
hankies.

But I do enjoy our discussions, Howdy. You have made this group MUCH
more
interesting for me (like Bob).

MOSFET

"Captain Howdy" wrote in message
...
Hey jerkskin while on topic, Why not just patch your cheesy electrical
system
with another 5 year old optima and another ten .5 farad capacitors?
Break
the
bank spend another buck.



In article , "MOSFET"
wrote:
Uh oh, Howdy, this could be YET another guy who thinks you're a jerk.
Just
three more and I'll have it mathematically proven (right now it's only
a
theorem).

MOSFET




One of the names that comes to mind of people that built exceptional
systems on a budget is Steve Brown. Steve and I used to compete in
IASCA together in SQ. He did his own installs in the street in front of
an apartment. Steve later went to work for Alpine as head of their R&D
department and built several impressive factory show vehicles. I wonder
if auto sound has stayed an interesting hobby to him once it became a
job?
--
I. Care
Address fake until the SPAM goes away ;-}

[Captain Howdy]

I'm sure that you can ghetto boy.

YES!!! LOL I wrote pennies on purpose because I KNEW (well, fairly
certain) that you would say they weren't pennies but big honkin coins. I
can read you like a book.

You are TOO FUN!

MOSFET

[Chad Wahls]

"Matt Ion" wrote in message
news:l5ewg.220517$IK3.84413@pd7tw1no...
Ravo wrote:
For the most part, external capacitors are totally unnecessary. All
amplifiers have their own built in capacitance that works quite well.

Finally, an intelligent answer on this thread.

If your voltage is dropping, it's because your alternator isn't producing
enough current, period. Caps and additional batteries will not solve the
problem, they'll only mask the symptom. The ONLY fix is an alternator
that's capable of producing sufficient current.


Amen Brothas

To add to that, a charged device's ability to deliver "fast" current is
limited by it's internal resistance. The lower it is the "faster it can
deliver power" Most voltage drops at amplifiers can be cured by appropriate
wire sizing, then you now have drops across the whole board. If the drop at
the battery is the same as at the amplifiers you have large enough B+
wiring. A cap won't do squat.

A cap is in parallel with the rest of the electrical system, there is NO way
to isolate it without invoking a PN junction loss of a big-ass rectifier
diode. This means ANY sudden surge will be drawn from the power source with
the lowest internal resistance, be it the AC clutch, inrush of the headlamps
turning on, ABS, or even in my case the electric power steering.

Caps have a very low internal resistance (ESR) a battery's ESR is larger....
BUT battery technology is becoming better and better. The first and most
important thing is to have a battery that can deliver the goods really fast,
you can have a HUGE alternator and a ****ty battery and still have problems,
the voltage regulators simply do not react with enough speed to compensate
for the audio related voltage drop. Now if you have a great battery and you
are still experiencing long term voltage drop or discharging then the
current alternator is not supplying enough charging current to bring the
battery back to a fully charged state.

Think of the battery as a water tank, it's not bad for the level to drop
below absolutely full, as long as the pump (alternator) can top it off in an
efficient manner.

Many times the blinking headlight phenomena can be solved with a good, fresh
battery. If you battery is dying in traffic then you need to look into a
larger alternator or find an alternate route home. Remember that
performance alternators will sometimes deliver LESS current than the stock
counterpart at idle, they can also at times be MORE electrically noisy.
Updating to a performance alternator without getting the rest of the
electrical system "ready" for it can be like shooting yourself in the foot.

Another commonly overlooked item is the grounding coming from the battery.
Normally this consists of a heavy ground wire going to the engine block
terminating near the starter (the stock vehicle's largest current consumer)
then there is usually a much thinner wire bonding to the chassis, then
engine is usually bonded to the chassis or sub-frame via a braided wire but
sometimes not. Many of my problems were solved by adding to the stock
grounding system. I took 4GA (Not a big system in retrospect to some) and
ran from the negative to the transmission then to the fire-wall (FWD car).
I also ran a 4Ga to the alternator mounting. My headlights would dim when
the AC clutch kicked in, ABS activated, etc. With a stock electrical system
this no longer happened after updating the grounding system.

I have seen too many 0 gauge wires going to a positive terminal and a 10 GA
coming from the negative to the chassis, at times that 10Ga would get DAMN
HOT!

I have seen caps cause problems too, things people overlook. In a
discharged state they will appear as a dead short to the charging device,
moreso than a battery. Remember ESR, the less charge the lower the charging
impedance. If you are HAMMERING a cap this can cause alternator problems
down the road due to increased inrush loading. Another problem is what
happened to me. A lady was driving her son's car while he was off to
school. The had a bank of caps in that bad boy that looked like a case of
Fosters. She did not know this and I did not know this. She left the
lights on and killed the battery on a shopping "mission" I was in the wrong
place at the wrong time when I offered her a jump start. When I connected
that last connection to the ground of my car I saw a flash I can still see
when I close my eyes (J/K) I had to cut the negative clamp off my jumper
cable with a Swiss army knife and remove the clamp from my engine with a
cutting wheel! A car battery can deliver more current than a welder when it
needs to, mine felt that it needed to into a bank of caps that would hold
reserve to the Hoover dam.

So, MOSFET or anyone else with large caps. You may want to place a bit of a
warning near your battery incase your wifey takes the car to the market and
leaves the lights on

Chad

[Captain Howdy]

Great post, I have enjoyed it alot. Most newer caps have a two stage charging
system. I know that my cap goes into slow charge mode if it sees less the 10
volts. But I have seen the older non digital caps shoot out some good sparks.


Amen Brothas

To add to that, a charged device's ability to deliver "fast" current is
limited by it's internal resistance. The lower it is the "faster it can
deliver power" Most voltage drops at amplifiers can be cured by appropriate
wire sizing, then you now have drops across the whole board. If the drop at
the battery is the same as at the amplifiers you have large enough B+
wiring. A cap won't do squat.

A cap is in parallel with the rest of the electrical system, there is NO way
to isolate it without invoking a PN junction loss of a big-ass rectifier
diode. This means ANY sudden surge will be drawn from the power source with
the lowest internal resistance, be it the AC clutch, inrush of the headlamps
turning on, ABS, or even in my case the electric power steering.

Caps have a very low internal resistance (ESR) a battery's ESR is larger....
BUT battery technology is becoming better and better. The first and most
important thing is to have a battery that can deliver the goods really fast,
you can have a HUGE alternator and a ****ty battery and still have problems,
the voltage regulators simply do not react with enough speed to compensate
for the audio related voltage drop. Now if you have a great battery and you
are still experiencing long term voltage drop or discharging then the
current alternator is not supplying enough charging current to bring the
battery back to a fully charged state.

Think of the battery as a water tank, it's not bad for the level to drop
below absolutely full, as long as the pump (alternator) can top it off in an
efficient manner.

Many times the blinking headlight phenomena can be solved with a good, fresh
battery. If you battery is dying in traffic then you need to look into a
larger alternator or find an alternate route home. Remember that
performance alternators will sometimes deliver LESS current than the stock
counterpart at idle, they can also at times be MORE electrically noisy.
Updating to a performance alternator without getting the rest of the
electrical system "ready" for it can be like shooting yourself in the foot.

Another commonly overlooked item is the grounding coming from the battery.
Normally this consists of a heavy ground wire going to the engine block
terminating near the starter (the stock vehicle's largest current consumer)
then there is usually a much thinner wire bonding to the chassis, then
engine is usually bonded to the chassis or sub-frame via a braided wire but
sometimes not. Many of my problems were solved by adding to the stock
grounding system. I took 4GA (Not a big system in retrospect to some) and
ran from the negative to the transmission then to the fire-wall (FWD car).
I also ran a 4Ga to the alternator mounting. My headlights would dim when
the AC clutch kicked in, ABS activated, etc. With a stock electrical system
this no longer happened after updating the grounding system.

I have seen too many 0 gauge wires going to a positive terminal and a 10 GA
coming from the negative to the chassis, at times that 10Ga would get DAMN
HOT!

I have seen caps cause problems too, things people overlook. In a
discharged state they will appear as a dead short to the charging device,
moreso than a battery. Remember ESR, the less charge the lower the charging
impedance. If you are HAMMERING a cap this can cause alternator problems
down the road due to increased inrush loading. Another problem is what
happened to me. A lady was driving her son's car while he was off to
school. The had a bank of caps in that bad boy that looked like a case of
Fosters. She did not know this and I did not know this. She left the
lights on and killed the battery on a shopping "mission" I was in the wrong
place at the wrong time when I offered her a jump start. When I connected
that last connection to the ground of my car I saw a flash I can still see
when I close my eyes (J/K) I had to cut the negative clamp off my jumper
cable with a Swiss army knife and remove the clamp from my engine with a
cutting wheel! A car battery can deliver more current than a welder when it
needs to, mine felt that it needed to into a bank of caps that would hold
reserve to the Hoover dam.

So, MOSFET or anyone else with large caps. You may want to place a bit of a
warning near your battery incase your wifey takes the car to the market and
leaves the lights on

Chad

[TomTheGeek]

Wow what a ton of replies, I should have checked back here sooner.

I didn't include any details because I was more interested in the
theory than my particular application but here you go.

It's a 99 Grand Am with the 2.4L 4 cylinder and a stock alt. I don't
remember what the rated output of it is but I've heard it's kind of
anemic even for a stock car. I'll have to check the actual voltages but
the car is generating the correct 14v while running, the 12v number was
while the car was off.

8 gauge amp hookup kit, stock grounding wires on the battery. Battery
is one of the higher end batteries from Farm & Fleet, so it's probably
terrible though relatively new.

Amp is a SONY XM-SD51X Class D mono amp. Yes I know it's a sony, but
it's 500 watts at 2 ohms for $119 shipped!

Sub is a 12" Alpine Type R (old style) that takes 300 watts RMS. I have
it hooked up in parallel for a load of 2 ohms.

Cap is a 1.5 farad generic thing from eBay hooked up in parallel
directly to the amp power terminals. It's screwed to the side of the
box so it's about a foot away from the amp. I wanted to put it under
the hood, but couldn't find a good place for it. I got it to ease the
load on the car, not necessarily to help my amp. Also I wanted it to be
in plain sight of any mechanic working on the car.

Yes, I know I need a bigger alt. I just wondered if the cap was working
the way I thought it was. I doubt I'll be upgrading the alt, though the
grounding wires would be a good and cheap upgrade. Maybe one of these
weekends I'll get around to it.

Honestly with the setup as it is now it hits plenty hard, hard enough
to distort the sub if I want. Gain on the amp is about halfway with no
bass boost.

I even had to glue my rear view mirror back on cause it fell off.

Captain Howdy wrote:
It is totally normal for the voltage to fluctuate a little, mind you a 2 volt
drop is a little too much for my liking. Caps do not give you extra voltage,
what they do is they give you extra amperage (faster flow). Higher the volume
the more amperage is drawn by your amplifier. As the requirement for amperage
increases voltage will drop due to the limitations of the electrical and
charging system and also due to the limitations on the cap.
The only advantage of a cap is that is can provide a faster flow of amperage
then your battery for a short length of time before it has to be recharged
again. The bigger the cap the longer it can provide amperage to your
amplifier. The display on your cap shows your system total voltage, as your
cap can not charge to a higher voltage then what your charging system has to
offer it.

Without more info it's hard to say what you need to upgrade. What size is the
power cable running to your amplifiers? What is the rms wattage of your
amplifier? What amperage is your alternator rated at ? What is your battery
rated at and is it performing to spec? (have your battery tested to make sure
it's within specs, even if it's newer). Are you having starting or headlight
dimming issues?




In article .com,
"TomTheGeek" wrote:
I just want to run this by someone to verify that it's working how I
think it is.

I have a sub with a Class D monoblock amp and a stiffening cap. The cap
has the standard voltage meter on the top. With the volume turned low
the voltage meter on the cap shows a steady 12v. With the volume turned
up and the bass really kicking the voltage will fluctuate with the
bass, dropping to around 10v or so occasionally.





My interpretation of this is that at low volumes there is little draw
on the electrical system so the amp doesn't need to pull from the cap
or it's pulling so little the voltage meter isn't sensitive enough to
notice it. At louder volumes the amp is stressing the system and the
cap is doing it's job supplying the extra power therby lowering it's
voltage. If that is correct then you can say that if the voltage meter
was getting to around 0v then I would need a bigger capacitor.

But for all that to be true the voltage meter on the cap would have to
be measuring only the voltage of the cap, not the whole system. To me
this sounds wrong, but I don't know.

Do I need a bigger alternator or a bigger cap, or is it working like it
should and my theory is correct? I bought the cap to ease the load on
the electrical system, not to gain SPL.