I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.

Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I mean..
for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such groups, it
remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.

Granted, it sounds 100 times better than any 24 bit Creative card... but
does that even matter to any potential buyers?

I'm upgrading because I want the XLR connections and midi functionality of
the 3G model (and, well, the 24 bits). The Gina20 has 1/4" and no midi
socket.

I'm also losing 2 outs by upgrading since the Gina20 had 8 of them and the
3G only has 6. But them's the breaks. I digress. Should I just throw the
Gina20 away?

"Mike Schmidt" wrote in message
...
| Should I just throw the
| Gina20 away?

I wouldn't. There are some on eBay with starting bids over $100US. You might
be able to get some coin for it.

Interestingly enough, one of the Gina 20s on eBay has a picture of a cartoon
turntable for its image. Down at the bottom of the page, the image is finally
correct, but now lists it as "thermostat for auction". Maybe it has uses of
which you are not yet aware!

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:16:36 -0400, Mike Schmidt wrote:

[snip]
I'm also losing 2 outs by upgrading since the Gina20 had 8 of them and the
3G only has 6. But them's the breaks. I digress. Should I just throw the
Gina20 away?

You may retain the Gin20 in your computer and continue to use its 8
outputs. There's no problem having more than one sound card in a
computer.
You may either use the control panel of Windows to switch between the
sound cards or you may select it from within you application if that
allows for. I use Adobe Audition and can select different devices for
edit mode and for multitrack mode. As well I can select a recording
device independend of the playback device.

Norbert

Why not find a kid in your area that's passionate about recording, but can't
afford a decent card? You'll make his/her millenium!

Bill Ruys.

"Mike Schmidt" wrote in message
...
I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.

Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I mean..
for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such groups, it
remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.

Granted, it sounds 100 times better than any 24 bit Creative card... but
does that even matter to any potential buyers?

I'm upgrading because I want the XLR connections and midi functionality of
the 3G model (and, well, the 24 bits). The Gina20 has 1/4" and no midi
socket.

I'm also losing 2 outs by upgrading since the Gina20 had 8 of them and the
3G only has 6. But them's the breaks. I digress. Should I just throw the
Gina20 away?

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:57:05 +0200, Norbert Hahn
wrote:

You may retain the Gin20 in your computer and continue to use its 8
outputs. There's no problem having more than one sound card in a
computer.

But there's an issue about synchronising the outputs if you want to
use them for multi-track output. And if you didn't want this, why
have them?

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:57:05 +0200, Norbert Hahn
wrote:

You may retain the Gin20 in your computer and continue to use its 8
outputs. There's no problem having more than one sound card in a
computer.

But there's an issue about synchronising the outputs if you want to
use them for multi-track output. And if you didn't want this, why
have them?

Especially if they're running at different bitrates, I would think (one is
20 bit, the other 24).

"Bill Ruys" wrote in message
...
Why not find a kid in your area that's passionate about recording, but
can't afford a decent card? You'll make his/her millenium!

That kid's going to say "20 bit? My Creative Audigy can do 24-bit! I don't
want your archaic 1997 piece of hardware!"

And I'm going to feel stupid.

And there will be uncomfortable tension in the air until one of us changes
the subject.

You want to put me through that? What kid today can appreciate the value of
an Echo card?

"Clarke" wrote in message
...

"Mike Schmidt" wrote in message
...
| Should I just throw the
| Gina20 away?

I wouldn't. There are some on eBay with starting bids over $100US. You
might
be able to get some coin for it.

Interestingly enough, one of the Gina 20s on eBay has a picture of a
cartoon
turntable for its image. Down at the bottom of the page, the image is
finally
correct, but now lists it as "thermostat for auction". Maybe it has uses
of
which you are not yet aware!

Heh.

Good point about EBay. Never tried it. Maybe it's time I did.

Mike,

I'd be interested in your Gina20. Shoot me an email if you'd like to
sell it:

thanks,

Albert

"Mike Schmidt" wrote in message
...
"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:57:05 +0200, Norbert Hahn
wrote:

You may retain the Gin20 in your computer and continue to use its 8
outputs. There's no problem having more than one sound card in a
computer.

But there's an issue about synchronising the outputs if you want to
use them for multi-track output. And if you didn't want this, why
have them?

Especially if they're running at different bitrates, I would think (one is
20 bit, the other 24).

Probably not an issue, since a 20 bit signal is actually a 24 bit signal
with the last four bits set to 0.

Peace,
Paul

Mike Schmidt wrote:
"Bill Ruys" wrote in message
...

Why not find a kid in your area that's passionate about recording, but
can't afford a decent card? You'll make his/her millenium!


That kid's going to say "20 bit? My Creative Audigy can do 24-bit! I don't
want your archaic 1997 piece of hardware!"

And I'm going to feel stupid.

Tell him that you heard here that the low order 4 bits (and
probably the low order 6 to 8) of his Audigy are random bits
not related to the signal.

No A/D delivers 24 honest bits because no analog front end
to a converter has input noise anywhere close to the -144 dB
necessasary to make them all meaningful. Even in theory
that would take a cryogenically cooled converter and front end.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

"Bob Cain" wrote in message
...

No A/D delivers 24 honest bits because no analog front end to a converter
has input noise anywhere close to the -144 dB necessasary to make them all
meaningful. Even in theory that would take a cryogenically cooled
converter and front end.


Bob
--

You mean I'm needlessly killing that extra 8 bits when I record @24 with my
Delta?

Laurence Payne wrote:

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:57:05 +0200, Norbert Hahn
wrote:

You may retain the Gin20 in your computer and continue to use its 8
outputs. There's no problem having more than one sound card in a
computer.

But there's an issue about synchronising the outputs if you want to
use them for multi-track output. And if you didn't want this, why
have them?

All Echo Audio cards can be synched externally. If you have two of
them you may select one as master and the other as slave - unless
you are recording from a digital source. In that case, the source
must be the master.

Norbert

"Mike Schmidt" wrote:

I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.

Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I mean..
for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such groups, it
remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.

Hm, I looked at the specs of the Gina3G. Signal to noise ration is
114 dB, so you may expect 19 bits. The old Gina20 most likely has
18 valid bits. Both numbers are for output.

For input, expect one bit less to faithfully caputer all room noise.

Norbert

"Norbert Hahn" wrote in message
...
"Mike Schmidt" wrote:

I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.

Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I mean..
for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such groups, it
remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.

Hm, I looked at the specs of the Gina3G. Signal to noise ration is
114 dB, so you may expect 19 bits. The old Gina20 most likely has
18 valid bits. Both numbers are for output.

For input, expect one bit less to faithfully caputer all room noise.

Norbert

No idea what any of this means or what it amounts to at the end, but thanks
anyway

It is more than likely that I will have to get rid of the Gina3G (see other
thread about incompatibility with Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe motherboard) so the
question now is what do I replace it /with/ that's in the same price range.

I'm looking at the Firewire 410 (m-audio). What say you?

Mike Schmidt wrote:

It is more than likely that I will have to get rid of the Gina3G (see other
thread about incompatibility with Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe motherboard) so the
question now is what do I replace it /with/ that's in the same price range.

Hey Mike,

First off the Nvidia chip usually plays nice with Echo products. That said I
would look at the following:

Do you have the NV Firewall on? If so turn it off for now. Then try the Gina
again.

Have you reseated the card in another slot? Look in your Asus manual for the
shared PCI slots, you could have a conflict there. The Asus has the new PCI
Express architecture along side the regular PCI slots that could cause some
problems for the Echo if it shares a slot.

You also could look at the on board S/Pdif and make sure both Gina's and the
ASUS are set to identical clocks.

I also hope you aren't using the bootable overclocking feature that is included
in this board.

The Bludgeon methods: You might also uninstall the Gina3G, then disable the
on-board AL audio, reboot, then reinstall the Gina3G. Once things are running
then I might risk enabling the on board audio once again...but only if you
really need it.

In all honesty you have a gamers board there, and not one that is best suited
for audio work.
Oddly enough, or perhaps not...Audio likes simple but fast architecture. The
more gook in the system, the less likely you have clean installs.

Anyway...try those if you haven't already.

PapaNate

Norbert Hahn wrote:
Laurence Payne wrote:

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:57:05 +0200, Norbert Hahn
wrote:

You may retain the Gin20 in your computer and continue to use its
8
outputs. There's no problem having more than one sound card in a
computer.

But there's an issue about synchronising the outputs if you want to
use them for multi-track output. And if you didn't want this, why
have them?

All Echo Audio cards can be synched externally. If you have two of
them you may select one as master and the other as slave - unless
you are recording from a digital source. In that case, the source
must be the master.

I know how to synch a Gina with lots of things - via its SP/DIF input.
However, its sister-card Darla lacked a digital input, so synching it
with some external source could be a little challenging.

Norbert Hahn wrote:
"Mike Schmidt" wrote:

I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.

Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I
mean.. for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such
groups, it remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.

Hm, I looked at the specs of the Gina3G. Signal to noise ration is
114 dB, so you may expect 19 bits. The old Gina20 most likely has
18 valid bits. Both numbers are for output.

No way was the Gina20 even close to 19 bits.

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/gina/index.htm suggests that on a
good day it was 16 bits in or out.

Mike Schmidt wrote:
"Norbert Hahn" wrote in message
...
"Mike Schmidt" wrote:

I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.

Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I
mean..
for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such
groups, it
remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.


Mike,

My email didn't come thru in my previous post. If interested in selling
your Gina20, call me at (907)586-3488.

Albert

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Norbert Hahn wrote:
"Mike Schmidt" wrote:

I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.

Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I
mean.. for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such
groups, it remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.

Hm, I looked at the specs of the Gina3G. Signal to noise ration is
114 dB, so you may expect 19 bits. The old Gina20 most likely has
18 valid bits. Both numbers are for output.

No way was the Gina20 even close to 19 bits.

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/gina/index.htm suggests that on a
good day it was 16 bits in or out.

Wait.. what about the 3G? Is it not a true 24bit card?

"kitekrazy" wrote in message
...
Mike Schmidt wrote:

It is more than likely that I will have to get rid of the Gina3G (see
other thread about incompatibility with Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe motherboard)
so the question now is what do I replace it /with/ that's in the same
price range.


Are you sure about that? Is this the 64 bit Athlon board? I know someone
who had a problem with a Mia using an Asus 8V board.

They shouldn't have any problems with the 8V line, if you look at the
compatible motherboards list on the Echo website. Mine, however, isn't
listed as compatible. Mine is 8N, not 8V.

Mike Schmidt wrote:


It is more than likely that I will have to get rid of the Gina3G (see other
thread about incompatibility with Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe motherboard) so the
question now is what do I replace it /with/ that's in the same price range.


Are you sure about that? Is this the 64 bit Athlon board? I know
someone who had a problem with a Mia using an Asus 8V board.

"Papanate" wrote in message
...
Mike Schmidt wrote:

It is more than likely that I will have to get rid of the Gina3G (see
other
thread about incompatibility with Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe motherboard) so the
question now is what do I replace it /with/ that's in the same price
range.

Hey Mike,

First off the Nvidia chip usually plays nice with Echo products. That said
I
would look at the following:

Do you have the NV Firewall on? If so turn it off for now. Then try the
Gina
again.

It was never installed from the MB CD.

Have you reseated the card in another slot? Look in your Asus manual for
the
shared PCI slots, you could have a conflict there. The Asus has the new
PCI
Express architecture along side the regular PCI slots that could cause
some
problems for the Echo if it shares a slot.

I tried it in slot 1, and again in slot 2.

You also could look at the on board S/Pdif and make sure both Gina's and
the
ASUS are set to identical clocks.

Never touched s/pdif or clocks before, wouldn't know how to do this.

I also hope you aren't using the bootable overclocking feature that is
included
in this board.

Heck no.

The Bludgeon methods: You might also uninstall the Gina3G, then disable
the
on-board AL audio, reboot, then reinstall the Gina3G. Once things are
running
then I might risk enabling the on board audio once again...but only if you
really need it.

Tried it. Disabled AC'97, re-installed Gina.. installation went flawlessly,
but XP continued to ignore the Gina in Sound / Audio Devices (Control
Panel). So did Sonar. Only the Device Manager sees it, and reports it as
working fine (note that loading the Gina Console also produces an error).

In all honesty you have a gamers board there, and not one that is best
suited
for audio work.

Too late.
¨
Anyway...try those if you haven't already.

I guess it's now official, then. They're not compatible.

Mike Schmidt wrote:


They shouldn't have any problems with the 8V line, if you look at the
compatible motherboards list on the Echo website. Mine, however, isn't
listed as compatible. Mine is 8N, not 8V.


If this is your reference http://www.echoaudio.com/Support/PC/AMD.php
it is out dated material.

I know a guy a Northern Sound Source who has an Echo Mia and it would
not work with the VIA800.

What both boards have in common is they are for the Athlon 64 Processors.

There wasn't a problem with nForce or Via Chipsets with XP processors.

BobF wrote:

You mean I'm needlessly killing that extra 8 bits when I record @24 with my
Delta?

No; not quite sure how you got that from what I said.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Mike Schmidt wrote:

No idea what any of this means or what it amounts to at the end, but thanks
anyway

Forget how many bits it says it converts. Instead find the
dynamic range specification in dB and divide by six. That
will tell you about how many of those bits are meaningful.
The rest might as well not be there at all.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

The only thing I haven't tried is updating the Bios to the latest beta (I am
using the latest official release, 1006).

Is that worth a shot, or will I just **** things up some more? Am I better
off just bringing the Gina3G back than screwing with my bios?

Mike Schmidt wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Norbert Hahn wrote:

"Mike Schmidt" wrote:


I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.

Question.. would I be wasting my time trying to sell the Gina20? I
mean.. for all the praise it keeps getting on r.a.p. and other such
groups, it remains a 20 bit card when most of them are 24 bit now.

Hm, I looked at the specs of the Gina3G. Signal to noise ration is
114 dB, so you may expect 19 bits. The old Gina20 most likely has
18 valid bits. Both numbers are for output.

No way was the Gina20 even close to 19 bits.

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/gina/index.htm suggests that on a
good day it was 16 bits in or out.


Wait.. what about the 3G? Is it not a true 24bit card?

You get 24 bits from the converter but only 114/6=19 of them
contain information about the signal. The rest of them are
junk bits that are random (if you are lucky.)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Mike Schmidt wrote:

The only thing I haven't tried is updating the Bios to the latest beta (I am
using the latest official release, 1006).

From the 3G manual:
PureWave mode completely bypasses the Windows kernel mixer to deliver your audio
data directly to the hardware.

This may be a dumb question but I am going to ask...have you started Sonar and
looked to see if the card is recognized there?

PapaNate

"Bob Cain" wrote in message
...

Mike Schmidt wrote:

Wait.. what about the 3G? Is it not a true 24bit card?

You get 24 bits from the converter but only 114/6=19 of them contain
information about the signal. The rest of them are junk bits that are
random (if you are lucky.)

So essentially we're all still working at 16 bits?

What's the point, then?

Bob Cain wrote:
Forget how many bits it says it converts. Instead find the dynamic
range specification in dB and divide by six. That will tell you about
how many of those bits are meaningful. The rest might as well not be
there at all.

And while we're talking about bringing a little sanity into it....

There is next to zero chance that more than 18 bits of signal
exist anywhere that it makes any difference.

Quiet studios are about 35 dB.
Normal living rooms are about 50 or 60dB.

Assume your home studio is really, really quiet and you are
closer to the 35 dB number. Then add 96dB for 16 bits
and you have -- wait for it --- 131 dB

No music has 131 dB of signal. Maybe two inches in front of
a hair band at 11, but probably not. The OSHA limits are
85 dB for an eight hour day.
http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/noi...trasonics.html
they set a legal limit of 115 dB for a maximum of 15 minutes.
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad..._version=FALSE

If the signal is 131 dB, no one can hear a 35 dB signal.
Even if their ears were not being crushed by the sound.
(this is how lossy compression algorithms work)

It is reasonable to record at 24 bits to be sure of getting 17 or 18
bits of signal. It is easy to record at 24 bits and not worry
about digital "overs" when the singer pops the mic.

It is reasonable to process 24 bits inside your DAW to ensure proper
control of rounding and truncation and cumulative errors.

It is silly marketing specmanship to believe that
a 24 bit A to D converter is spectacularly better than
a high quality 16 bit convertor. Not that there aren't some
really crappy convertors out there...



--
Pat Farrell in
PRC Recording http://www.pfarrell.com/prc/

"Sue Morton" wrote in message
. ..
Are you able to select the Gina as your preferred playback and recording
device in Control Panel, sound and audio? Or is this where you are not
finding it listed.

That's precisely where it won't show up. That, and Sonar itself.

It's in the Device Manager and listed as fully-functioning, though.

If you open your volume control in windows systray, and go to Options -
Properties, is the Gina one of the mixer devices you can choose?

No. In fact, since I disabled the AC97 to try installing the Gina as the
/only/ device (as Papa suggested elsewhere in this thread) Windows now has
/no/ sound devices to output from... my computer beeps when there's a sound
event, and the volume icon in the system tray is no longer there.

If I switch the AC97 back on in Bios, though, it'll come back... as the only
available device.

If device manager is working fine, it should be compatible with your mobo.

You'd think so! And yet...

Open system management and look at IRQ conflicts, see if the Gina is
sharing an IRQ with anything.

Not a big expert in IRQ matters, but ok.. where do I find "System
Management"?

That's usually what is solved by moving it to a different slot. But if
you have ACPI turned on in the bios,
moving it to a different slot won't matter.

It might be turned on. What is it? What do I lose by turning it off?

Mike Schmidt wrote:

So essentially we're all still working at 16 bits?
What's the point, then?

The point to some people is that 24 bit sounds better and has a little more
headroom.
None of the specs matter as it is up to your ears whether you like the way
it sounds.

Personally I like 24/48.

PapaNate

Papanate wrote:


Mike Schmidt wrote:

The only thing I haven't tried is updating the Bios to the latest beta
(I am
using the latest official release, 1006).

From the 3G manual:
/PureWave mode completely bypasses the Windows kernel mixer to deliver
your audio data directly to the hardware./

This may be a dumb question but I am going to ask...have you started
Sonar and looked to see if the card is recognized there?

PapaNate


That may be it. The drivers may be in PureWave mode by default.

I emailed Scott Reams who builds Athlon 64 systems:

One of my more recent customers is using an nForce3 system with an Echo
Layla 3G. Works fine. I've had previous customers using Echo's Mia
without issue on nForce boards.

(Ted would be all over this thread)

Pat Farrell wrote:
Bob Cain wrote:

Forget how many bits it says it converts. Instead find the dynamic
range specification in dB and divide by six. That will tell you about
how many of those bits are meaningful. The rest might as well not be
there at all.


And while we're talking about bringing a little sanity into it....

There is next to zero chance that more than 18 bits of signal
exist anywhere that it makes any difference.

Quiet studios are about 35 dB.
Normal living rooms are about 50 or 60dB.

But there is a real audible difference between the
correlated noise of rooms and studios and the uncorrelated
hiss of converters. We seem much more tolerant of the
correlated noise. Dunno how that translates into dB
figures, if it does at all, but I think that you need more
bits than the studio ambient noise would indicate you do.

The value of the higher number of bits is, as has been
stated here often, only in recording where you want a lot of
room above the noise floor for headroom and in processing to
help ameliorate the computational accumulation of noise.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Mike Schmidt wrote:
"Bob Cain" wrote in message
...

Mike Schmidt wrote:

Wait.. what about the 3G? Is it not a true 24bit card?

You get 24 bits from the converter but only 114/6=19 of them contain
information about the signal. The rest of them are junk bits that are
random (if you are lucky.)


So essentially we're all still working at 16 bits?

What's the point, then?

Does 19 = 16 today? :-)


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Papanate wrote:
Mike Schmidt wrote:


So essentially we're all still working at 16 bits?
What's the point, then?


The point to some people is that 24 bit sounds better and has a little more
headroom.
None of the specs matter as it is up to your ears whether you like the way
it sounds.


They matter a lot if you are recording and want headroom
above the noise floor so that you can apply gain later
without putting that noise in your ears.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Norbert Hahn wrote:
Laurence Payne wrote:

I know how to synch a Gina with lots of things - via its SP/DIF input.
However, its sister-card Darla lacked a digital input, so synching it
with some external source could be a little challenging.



True but all the Echo cards I've worked with have an internal sync jack as
well, so you can sync multiple Echo cards on a single computer. Having said
that, I've never done it, so I don't know how well it works. But they all
should have come with a small sync cable to connect two cards.

As for the different bit depths, this should also not matter than much, as
long as the sample rates are the same. The 3G cards can have sample rates
much higher than the 20 bit Echo products. As long as the software is
communicating via the card's driver at the same sample rate and bit depth,
all should be fine.

To answer the original poster's question, NO don't throw away your card.
;-))

Sell it on eBay, or keep it and drop it into another older computer, and you
can use it for extra stuff, or as a back-up, or software synths, effects
box, etc......
--
Richard B. Ingraham
RBI Computers and Audio
http://www.rbicompaudio.20m.com

"Mike Schmidt" wrote in message
...
I'm buying an Echo Gina3G later today to replace my Gina20.


I'm also losing 2 outs by upgrading since the Gina20 had 8 of them and the
3G only has 6. But them's the breaks. I digress. Should I just throw the
Gina20 away?


I have a trash can in my office here, you can throw it into if you really
want to throw it away. ;-))


--
Richard B. Ingraham
RBI Computers and Audio
http://www.rbicompaudio.20m.com

Bob Cain wrote:

They matter a lot if you are recording and want headroom
above the noise floor so that you can apply gain later
without putting that noise in your ears.

I disagree in the context of what was being asked.

PapaNate