What's the absolute smallest setup I can get with high quality sound
and these features for playing live? I don't need an amp.

Vocal Chain: Mic Preamp w/ phantom mono, then limiter, compressor,
reverb, delay in stereo. Technically I only need delay on one channel.
The DBX provocal looks nice though it's interface is lousy and I
still need a mixer.

Guitar Chain: Instrument amp like Para DI, compressor, aural exciter.
Aural Exciters seem to be independent and not added into other
processors from what I see.

Thanks

bringmewater wrote:

What's the absolute smallest setup I can get with high quality sound
and these features for playing live? I don't need an amp.

Playing what kind of music live, and playing it where? Venue size?

Vocal Chain: Mic Preamp w/ phantom mono, then limiter, compressor,
reverb, delay in stereo. Technically I only need delay on one channel.
The DBX provocal looks nice though it's interface is lousy and I
still need a mixer.

Why do you think you need all that just to sing live?

Guitar Chain: Instrument amp like Para DI, compressor, aural exciter.
Aural Exciters seem to be independent and not added into other
processors from what I see.

What kind of guitar? What kind of music? Why an "aural exciter"? Doesn't
the music have some excitement to it?

--
ha

I am playing songs like Magaritaville in tiny clubs. I really like a
touch of reverb and delay on my vocals and a compressor/limiter keeps
me in the pocket and keeps peaks under control

This is for a Martin acoustic Guitar that has Pick up the world
pickups. I already play it through a Para Di. The aural exciter
makes the highs sound really nice. I currently play through an old
Aphex aural exciter. Thanks for any ideas.

bringmewater wrote:

I am playing songs like Magaritaville in tiny clubs. I really like a
touch of reverb and delay on my vocals and a compressor/limiter keeps
me in the pocket and keeps peaks under control

This is for a Martin acoustic Guitar that has Pick up the world
pickups. I already play it through a Para Di. The aural exciter
makes the highs sound really nice. I currently play through an old
Aphex aural exciter. Thanks for any ideas.

But you don't need an amp? Nor a mixer? You want to plug your own rig
into the house system?

--
ha

I will need a mixer, but no amp cuz my PA has an amp. Ideally the
mixer would have all this stuff in it.

size is the critical parameter. It needs to be as small as possible
for convenience.

bringmewater wrote:

size is the critical parameter. It needs to be as small as possible
for convenience.

Rane or Rolls single-rackspace line mixer
Mic of your choice
Mic cable, mic stand
Vocal processor of your choice
Baggs PADI
RNC
(I'd not bother with aural excitation, really; maybe BBE makes a unit
that's a DI + Sonic Maxmizer. But these things suck in general and I
can't imagine why you'd want to do that to a perfectly good signal from
a guitar.)
Patch cable(s)
Mackie SRM350, or two if you need them
Mic (XLRFXLRM) cable(s)
Ultimate Support TS90 speaker stand(s)

--
ha

hank alrich wrote:

Rane or Rolls single-rackspace line mixer
Mic of your choice
Mic cable, mic stand
Vocal processor of your choice
Baggs PADI
RNC
(I'd not bother with aural excitation, really; maybe BBE makes a unit
that's a DI + Sonic Maxmizer. But these things suck in general and I
can't imagine why you'd want to do that to a perfectly good signal from
a guitar.)
Patch cable(s)
Mackie SRM350, or two if you need them
Mic (XLRFXLRM) cable(s)
Ultimate Support TS90 speaker stand(s)


I still think someone could build a *really* nice little acoustic system with an FMR RNP and an SRM-350. Feed the pickup into the DI of one channel (or mic the instrument), put the vocal mic into the other input, and use a passive combiner to mix the two outputs of the RNP. Add RNC or Speck EQ as needed. This will fit in 1U or less (1½ if you use both the EQ and the RNC.)

In article .com writes:

I will need a mixer, but no amp cuz my PA has an amp. Ideally the
mixer would have all this stuff in it.

Gawd, I'm getting tired of people not giving all the information
(apoligies if I missed it in an earlier message, but the answers
indicate that it's missing).

What's your "PA?" Most PA equipment has a mixer. I can't figure out
what you're missing, or what you want,

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

The Pa is just a sepearate pair of speakers and an amp. Nothing fancy.
Thanks for any help. You guys are the greatest.

Mike Rivers wrote:
In article .com
writes:

I will need a mixer, but no amp cuz my PA has an amp. Ideally the
mixer would have all this stuff in it.

Gawd, I'm getting tired of people not giving all the information
(apoligies if I missed it in an earlier message, but the answers
indicate that it's missing).

What's your "PA?" Most PA equipment has a mixer. I can't figure out
what you're missing, or what you want,

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Kurt, Thanks for the reply. The only problem is the RNC doesn't appear
to have two independent compressors so the guitar and vocal would be
fixed on one set of shared settings. Since I need a mixer anyways a
1202 or such would solve my preamp/eq probs too.

Are any of the mixers with effects using Stereo effects? The manuals
don't make them clear at all.


I still think someone could build a *really* nice little acoustic
system with an FMR RNP and an SRM-350. Feed the pickup into the DI of
one channel (or mic the instrument), put the vocal mic into the other
input, and use a passive combiner to mix the two outputs of the RNP.
Add RNC or Speck EQ as needed. This will fit in 1U or less (1=BD if you
use both the EQ and the RNC.)

In article . com writes:

The Pa is just a sepearate pair of speakers and an amp. Nothing fancy.
Thanks for any help. You guys are the greatest.

OK, so you need a mixer, and if you want to avoid outboard equipment,
you need one with effects you can stand, and perhaps a direct
instrument input. Go to a music store and look around. You'll find
something like that within your budget.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article .com writes:

Are any of the mixers with effects using Stereo effects? The manuals
don't make them clear at all.

Most of them have a stereo effect processor, but they only have one of
them. This means you can't use a reverb on your voice and a chorus on
your guitar in the same song. Also, few small mixers have built-in
compression.

While you might want to have a compressor on your voice, I wouldn't
recommend using one on your guitar. When you're the singer, the band,
and the sound engineer, you need to maintain a certain degree of
control in your own performance. Don't depend on compression to
replace proper level setting or protecting the audience from
occasional bursts of enthusiasm on your your part.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Effects you can stand! haha Do any of them sound any good regarding
reverbs on the mixers with effects? The Mackie, Behringer, Yamaha?

Also can any of the efx mixers do two efx at once like Verb and Delay.
I would like to have my vocal channel with 2 channels like this:

ch1: vocal with reverb
ch2: same vocal with reverb and delay

Thanks again guys.

In article .com,
wrote:
Effects you can stand! haha Do any of them sound any good regarding
reverbs on the mixers with effects? The Mackie, Behringer, Yamaha?

Not that I have heard. However, it's amazing how terrrible a reverb
you can get away with in a live situation if you EQ the top end off of
the reverb send and use just enough reverb that you barely notice it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Kurt Albershardt wrote:

I still think someone could build a *really* nice little acoustic system
with an FMR RNP and an SRM-350. Feed the pickup into the DI of one
channel (or mic the instrument), put the vocal mic into the other input,
and use a passive combiner to mix the two outputs of the RNP.

After looking at the RNP circuit diagram, it occurred to me that the best way to mic the channels would probably be via the insert points. Called McQ to verify and he agreed, even going to the point of measuring distortion on a couple of proposed configurations.

Result: Short the two insert points directly and you get increasing distortion with input levels above +26 (at zero gain.) The solution is to bridge the channels with a 1-2k resistor (which drops the distortion.) So make a cable with two TRS plugs, short the tips & rings, and put a resistor in series with the conductor that connects them. You now have a two-channel mixer with two isolated, buffered, balanced mono outs.

Hank and I are going to try it this weekend...

Kurt Albershardt wrote:

After looking at the RNP circuit diagram, it occurred to me that the
best way to mic the channels

Uh, MIX the channels of course ;

In article .com writes:

Effects you can stand! haha Do any of them sound any good regarding
reverbs on the mixers with effects? The Mackie, Behringer, Yamaha?

The reverb on the Mackie CFX is tolerable for live work, though I
would probalby look for something better for a recording mix. While I
realize it's not your thing, the spring reverb program sounds a whole
lot like a guitar amplifier reverb. But you get only one - you can't
get a reverb on your voice and a delay or chorus on the guitar without
using an external effect processor for one or the other.

I don't know what the Behringer, Yamaha, Mackie DFX, and upcoming
Tapco built-in effects are like, but I suppose they're usable for
lounge type lizard performance. Look for one that has a footswitch
jack to mute the effect processor so you can kill it easily when you
talk between songs.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

I still think someone could build a *really* nice little acoustic system
with an FMR RNP and an SRM-350. Feed the pickup into the DI of one
channel (or mic the instrument), put the vocal mic into the other input,
and use a passive combiner to mix the two outputs of the RNP.

After looking at the RNP circuit diagram, it occurred to me that the best way
to mic the channels would probably be via the insert points.

Mic the channels? Or do you mean combine the channels?

Result: Short the two insert points directly and you get increasing distortion
with input levels above +26 (at zero gain.) The solution is to bridge the
channels with a 1-2k resistor (which drops the distortion.) So make a cable
with two TRS plugs, sh
ort the tips & rings, and put a resistor in series with the conductor that
connects them.


Ch1 Send--------------+
|
Ch1 Return------------+
|

1K resistor

|
Ch2 Send--------------+
|
Ch2 Return------------+


Like that? Taking the output from either channel?








You now have a two-channel mixer with two isolated, buffered,
balanced mono outs.

Hank and I are going to try it this weekend...




--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Channel 1 is the vocal and goes into mixer channel 1.

The goal is for the output to have a stereo image,
compression/limiter, reverb in both channels of the stereo image with
delay in the right channel. It would be nice if the mixers with built
in FX allowed this but it doesn't appear so. So I'm trying to come up
with a TINY portable system to carry around to gigs and not require a
rack of stuff to to this. So far the DBX Provocal seems the only
alternative with 1 U rack space. I would love to find an even smaller
box or mixer with FX that can do this.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Channel 1 is the vocal and goes into mixer channel 1.

The goal is for the output to have a stereo image,
compression/limiter, reverb in both channels of the stereo image with
delay in the right channel. It would be nice if the mixers with built
in FX allowed this but it doesn't appear so. So I'm trying to come up
with a TINY portable system to carry around to gigs and not require a
rack of stuff to to this. So far the DBX Provocal seems the only
alternative with 1 U rack space. I would love to find an even smaller
box or mixer with FX that can do this.

This thread is what happens when local pro stores disappear in the shadow of
ZZounds and MusiciansFriend. Used to be these questions were asked of, and
answered by your guy in the pro sound department. If nothing else, you actually
got to touch the gear and listen to the sounds to make comparisons and
decisions.

Not that I'm a luddite -- I enjoy online shopping as much as the next guy -- but
there are some things you just have to show up in person for. This thread looks
like a shopping list in the making for an online purchase. If so, you may want
to find out how much is the return shipping on anything that doesn't work out
for you.

John

In article .com writes:

The goal is for the output to have a stereo image,
compression/limiter, reverb in both channels of the stereo image with
delay in the right channel.

Have you actualy heard what you're describing? And in a venue that's
appropriate for a small sound system?

If there's a delay in the right channel, what's it delayed from? I
think you mentioned delay on the guitar. Are you thinking of having
the direct guitar going to the left speaker and a delayed version
coming out the right? That would sound pretty funny. Remember that in
a small club, people are almost sitting closer to one speaker than the
other. Better to pan the guitar and the delay to the center, perhaps
each one just a touch off center, but mostly with both the direct and
delay in both channels.

It's typical for reverb to be in stereo, but with the primary source
panned to the center. This will give a sense of stereo but will assure
that everyone will hear pretty much the same thing.

You may have something unusual in mind, but you might be imagining a
setup that just wouldn't work acoustically.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

wrote:
What's the absolute smallest setup I can get with high quality sound
and these features for playing live? I don't need an amp.

Vocal Chain: Mic Preamp w/ phantom mono, then limiter, compressor,
reverb, delay in stereo. Technically I only need delay on one
channel.
The DBX provocal looks nice though it's interface is lousy and I
still need a mixer.

Guitar Chain: Instrument amp like Para DI, compressor, aural
exciter.
Aural Exciters seem to be independent and not added into other
processors from what I see.

You might like to look at a TC Helicon Voice live for your voice
processing. You can change vocal effect patches with your foot, and
even add autotuned background vocals. g

That and a Pendulum Acoustic Guitar Micpre, both line in to say,
even a Mackie 1402 ( has decent sized faders ) and it should lend to a
fairly passable presentation, sound-wise.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio / Fox News / M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

I'm in Charleston, SC and they don't have a clue regarding Pro Gear and
they don't stock anything and that was before the internet. Oh they
have lots and lots of $200 guitars though.

Delay only on vocals.

wrote:
I'm in Charleston, SC and they don't have a clue regarding Pro Gear and
they don't stock anything and that was before the internet. Oh they
have lots and lots of $200 guitars though.

So, fly somebody in from Atlanta.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Mike Rivers wrote:

The reverb on the Mackie CFX is tolerable for live work, though I
would probalby look for something better for a recording mix.

****, just activating the effects loop in that system puts enough hiss
in the mix that I'd make "Move One" getting _rid_ of the CFX.

--
ha

Scott, great advice !!! You're the best

I do this same sort of thing. I use:

Shure Beta 57 Mic

Behringer 602 mixer

Boss SE-50 Stereo Effects Unit (delay, reverb, compression; whatever
you want, it's there)

Stewert PA 100B amp. (90 watts a side)

Electro Voice S-40 speakers (mounted on mic stands)

It all fits in a small rolling suitcase along with a small case for mic
stands (one for the vocal mic and two for the speakers). The speakers
are small, but are fine for vocal and acoustic guitar. The SE-50 is
no longer around but others are all over.

There are now lots of powered mixers with effects around that will do
the same thing.

Fred

In article .com writes:

I'm in Charleston, SC and they don't have a clue regarding Pro Gear and
they don't stock anything and that was before the internet.

So go to Atlanta, or Raleigh, or Washington. You want to see and hear
stuff, not read about it. What's a day of travel compared to buying
the wrong gear? Or getting so many recommendations that you never make
a decision?

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

wrote:
Channel 1 is the vocal and goes into mixer channel 1.

The goal is for the output to have a stereo image,
compression/limiter, reverb in both channels of the stereo image

A stereo image from a mono source? What's wrong with mono PA?

Mike Rivers wrote:
In article writes:


I still think someone could build a *really* nice little acoustic system
with an FMR RNP and an SRM-350. Feed the pickup into the DI of one
channel (or mic the instrument), put the vocal mic into the other input,
and use a passive combiner to mix the two outputs of the RNP.

After looking at the RNP circuit diagram, it occurred to me that the best way
to mix the channels would probably be via the insert points.



Ch1 Send--------------+
|
Ch1 Return------------+
|

1K resistor

|
Ch2 Send--------------+
|
Ch2 Return------------+


Like that? Taking the output from either channel?


Yes, precisely.

What's wrong with mono PA? I don't like it. Is that OK ?

Fred, Your setup sounds really nice. Thanks for taking the time to
post it. It is very much what I'm looking for. Are you using one of
those SBK tilt cases that allow the mixer to fit in the case and tilt
up when in use?

Thanks

Fred, also you say there are lots of powered mixers that will do the
same thing. Are there any that will do Stereo effects so I can have on
channel with compression/verb and another with compression/verb/delay?

Thanks again!

In article . com,
wrote:
What's wrong with mono PA? I don't like it. Is that OK ?

In a lot of rooms, it's not okay. Stereo is great if you have the room
for it, but sadly those places are in a very small minority.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

bringmewater wrote ...
What's wrong with mono PA? I don't like it. Is that OK ?

Do you think you could sell CDs with only the left (or right)
channel at full price? If you had your choice of tickets:
* Stereo seating (limited supply)
* Left channel only seating
* Right channel only seating

Which tickets do you think would be sold?
Which tickets do you think you would have to discount (or give away)?

In article . com writes:

What's wrong with mono PA? I don't like it. Is that OK ?

It not be OK for the audience. Is that a problem?

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

wrote:
What's wrong with mono PA? I don't like it. Is that OK ?

Well it's been a while since I was a live sound guy, but for
physical reasons you generally can't get true stereo coverage in most
venues, as far as trying to make your lineup on stage match across a
stereo soundfield through a PA system. You just have too narrow an
area you can effectively cover with a stereo image in most venues.
There is pricey high end stuff installed in some concert halls that you
aren't supposed to know is a PA, and sometimes there is synthesized
stereo processing used sometimes which claims to compensate for the
physical limitations of a room (I haven't used that system), but that
kind of thing is the exception rather than the rule and you aren't
likely going to encounter that gigging around coffee houses and bars.

Probably what is most useful in stereo is reverb/echo, perhaps
some synth sounds or the odd guitar effects that pan across maybe, or
maybe being able to pan the sound away from a hot mic used by an MC
that walks out into the audience maybe. Still generally I think most
live sound is done with everything panned dead center, if not plain old
mono. And
a bad balance will be as sucky in stereo as it is in mono, and even
harder to get right.

Will Miho
NY Music and TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio / Fox News / M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits