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Am I Being Selfish?
Hi all.....I've always said with regards to a lot of the music produced
these days: Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an instrument?!?!? In 100yrs time or so no one will actually play an instrument anymore at this rate! I think what it is; I'm being selfish here! When I'm in my 60's 70's 80's (if I get that far:  & incapable of playing myself for what ever reason: Iwant to be able to listen to great players of the day. The likes of, pheeeew where do I start: Guitarists: Al Di Meola, Frank Gambalie, Greg Howe, Pat Metheny, Eric Johnson, Larry Colton, Jan Ackerman, Gary Moore. Drummers: Dennis Chambers, Vinnie Colaiuta, Virgil Donati, Dave Weckl, Billy Cobham, Steve Smith. Bass Players: Victor Wooten, Jaco Pastorius, John Patitucci, Jeff Berlin, Charles Mingus, Mark King, Alphonso Johnson. Piano/Keys: Oscar Peterson, Chick Corea, Lyle Mays, George Duke, Thijs Van Leer..i could go on & on!!! A few of these greats have already departed from this world. Yep Selfish!!! As i said: i'll have no one to listen to the way music is going at the moment!!! Just a thought. WaLT. |
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#2
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"DCC" wrote in message ... Hi all.....I've always said with regards to a lot of the music produced these days: Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an instrument?!?!? In 100yrs time or so no one will actually play an instrument anymore at this rate! I think what it is; I'm being selfish here! When I'm in my 60's 70's 80's (if I get that far: & incapable of playing myself for what ever reason:I want to be able to listen to great players of the day. The likes of, pheeeew where do I start: Guitarists: Al Di Meola, Frank Gambalie, Greg Howe, Pat Metheny, Eric Johnson, Larry Colton, Jan Ackerman, Gary Moore. Drummers: Dennis Chambers, Vinnie Colaiuta, Virgil Donati, Dave Weckl, Billy Cobham, Steve Smith. Bass Players: Victor Wooten, Jaco Pastorius, John Patitucci, Jeff Berlin, Charles Mingus, Mark King, Alphonso Johnson. Piano/Keys: Oscar Peterson, Chick Corea, Lyle Mays, George Duke, Thijs Van Leer..i could go on & on!!! A few of these greats have already departed from this world. Yep Selfish!!! As i said: i'll have no one to listen to the way music is going at the moment!!! Just a thought. WaLT. maybe some Pro will record these greats so you can listen to then in the far future. |
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#3
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DCC wrote:
Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an instrument?!?!? It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the classical world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed with no amplification. As long as this remains the case in any sector of the music industry, there will be a need for that practice, dedication, and torment, because there won't be any way around it. In 100yrs time or so no one will actually play an instrument anymore at this rate! Well, at least prices on vintage guitars will start coming down. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#4
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#6
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In article ,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote: George wrote: In article , (Scott Dorsey) wrote: DCC wrote: Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an instrument?!?!? It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the classical world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed with no amplification. As long as this remains the case in any sector of the music industry, there will be a need for that practice, dedication, and torment, because there won't be any way around it. what does amplification have to do with it? Because a sound reinforcement system that is designed for amplification can also do all sorts of other things when the audience isn't looking. If you get rid of it completely, you also get rid of a lot of other crutches that come along with it. Also, of course, without a sound reinforcement system, performers are forced to learn about dynamics and to learn to control them properly, because there is nobody else to do it for them. MY POV is the musician comes first I do as much sound for sympohnies and orchestras as anything else then there is amplification as a essential element to the art and musicianship people like SRV and Eric Clapton, even Pink Floyd required amplification to complete thier artistic visions Amplification is like a throttle on a motorcycle used properly it delivers a rush unattainable any other way, used incorrectly and the results are devestating so I do not see the use of amplication diminishing the need to be a skilled musician remeber there are thousands of unskilled non amplifed musician as well, come to a party at my shop, they will be there :-) |
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#7
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Also, of course, without a sound reinforcement system, performers are forced
to learn about dynamics and to learn to control them properly, because there is nobody else to do it for them. Of course, there are also performers who choose to work with amplification as an artistic decision, & who understand & control their dynamics with incredible precision. AND they work closely with the sound system engineer to achieve an intended dynamic result, although dynamics isn't the only, or even necessarily the predominant element affected by the decision to use amplification. Scott Fraser |
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#8
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in article ,
George at wrote on 8/29/04 9:21 AM: It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the classical world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed with no amplification. As long as this remains the case in any sector of the music industry, there will be a need for that practice, dedication, and torment, because there won't be any way around it. what does amplification have to do with it? George CASE: in the jazz realm way many stand-up bassists just can/will not play without an amp (usually one that makes the instrument reproduce at 80-90dB at 3m with a note-flat response down to 20Hz) even when working against real piano and lo-vol jazz guitar in a small room no-reenforcement situation. They don;t want to have to WORK to make the instrument sound and thus CAN not get the intensity and tone out of the instrument acoustically. amp=crutch and in this case one that allows real TONE chops to atrophy. This amp-jones seems distressingly to cross the lines of bad/good/great players. |
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#9
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in article ,
George at wrote on 8/29/04 9:59 AM: In article , (Scott Dorsey) wrote: George wrote: In article , (Scott Dorsey) wrote: DCC wrote: Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an instrument?!?!? It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the classical world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed with no amplification. As long as this remains the case in any sector of the music industry, there will be a need for that practice, dedication, and torment, because there won't be any way around it. what does amplification have to do with it? Because a sound reinforcement system that is designed for amplification can also do all sorts of other things when the audience isn't looking. If you get rid of it completely, you also get rid of a lot of other crutches that come along with it. Also, of course, without a sound reinforcement system, performers are forced to learn about dynamics and to learn to control them properly, because there is nobody else to do it for them. MY POV is the musician comes first GEORGE... note one BIG thing... (and this isn't MENTIONEd for teh purpose of ciomplementing you, but certainly can and should be TAKEn as one) your work aesthetic is, at least in teh circles where I travel, NOT the norm, and more important, NOT what a lot of players INSIST on: they don;t HAVe great tone and thus EXPECT you to 'invent' that for them. The classic wonderful (and to me inherent cornerstone) idea of a 'sound person/system' that by design and expectation is basically a WINDOW isn't what's wanted by the folks who figure it ain;t THEIR fault they sound like they do. I do as much sound for sympohnies and orchestras as anything else then there is amplification as a essential element to the art and musicianship people like SRV and Eric Clapton, even Pink Floyd required amplification to complete thier artistic visions Amplification is like a throttle on a motorcycle used properly it delivers a rush unattainable any other way, used incorrectly and the results are devestating so I do not see the use of amplication diminishing the need to be a skilled musician remeber there are thousands of unskilled non amplifed musician as well, come to a party at my shop, they will be there :-) Perfecty phrased. Another way to look at it (and this is part-and-parcel of the RECORDING job but bleeds into reenforcement) is that it's also sonic portrait photography. You have to hide the blemishes, make the most of teh good features and set it all off in an attractive and artistically interesting and appropriate light. Not that easy on the fly live especially when you ain't got a Sophia Loren in front of the lens or a KDLang in front of the mic. |
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#10
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George wrote:
Amplification is like a throttle on a motorcycle used properly it delivers a rush unattainable any other way, used incorrectly and the results are devestating so I do not see the use of amplication diminishing the need to be a skilled musician Right. But the lack of amplification _forces_ you to learn skills that can otherwise be avoided. With amplification, how do you even know the band up on stage is real? They could just be a tape playback from the FOH. Having no amplification makes this sort of thing impossible. remeber there are thousands of unskilled non amplifed musician as well, come to a party at my shop, they will be there :-) Absolutely. But put them behind a mike and stick Autotune in there for that great modern sound, add a taped backing track, and nobody will have any idea how unskilled they are. Amplification isn't bad, but it can be used to hide all kinds of things. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#11
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Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of
practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an instrument?!?!? It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the classical world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed with no amplification. Among other reasons, such as composers taking their ideas to the limit which can sometimes require extreme technical skill to execute. It's tempting to get bent out of shape, but popular music has become all haircuts/titties and no music to a startling degree in the last 10 years. The latest generations of would-be pop musicians seem completely unconcerned about being able to play or sing whatsoever. The industry rarely rewards talent (outside of niche genres) Musical ability is simply not a requirment to be a musician any longer. This is all very frustrating if you are trying to assemble a good rock band. There aren't enough players to go around, not even close. "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between what you say and what you think you have said." -george (paraphrased) |
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#12
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Amplification is like a throttle on a motorcycle
used properly it delivers a rush unattainable any other way, used incorrectly and the results are devestating I've nothing against amplification, but I would argue that nothing can beat the rush of a full brass section playing maxed out. "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between what you say and what you think you have said." -george (paraphrased) |
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#13
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#14
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CASE: in the jazz realm way many stand-up bassists just can/will not play
without an amp (usually one that makes the instrument reproduce at 80-90dB at 3m with a note-flat response down to 20Hz) even when working against real piano and lo-vol jazz guitar in a small room no-reenforcement situation. They don;t want to have to WORK to make the instrument sound and thus CAN not get the intensity and tone out of the instrument acoustically. As an arranger I would point out that the bass is not a very loud instrument, and can easily be drowned out by a loud drum kit and piano. Even all those basses lined up in an orchestra are not as loud as they look like they should be. "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between what you say and what you think you have said." -george (paraphrased) |
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#16
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#17
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in article , knud at
lahblah wrote on 8/29/04 4:51 PM: CASE: in the jazz realm way many stand-up bassists just can/will not play without an amp (usually one that makes the instrument reproduce at 80-90dB at 3m with a note-flat response down to 20Hz) even when working against real piano and lo-vol jazz guitar in a small room no-reenforcement situation. They don;t want to have to WORK to make the instrument sound and thus CAN not get the intensity and tone out of the instrument acoustically. As an arranger I would point out that the bass is not a very loud instrument, and can easily be drowned out by a loud drum kit and piano. played badly/inappropriately SURE, but then that fits for ANY musician (amped or not) that doesn;t know how to play with other musicians. The string quartet avec piano is a time-tested balance of sound and older than any electric system that can 'help' it. It's the basis and core of every jazz ensemble out there. Players who can Play Together -GET- this and are a thing of beauty and a joy to behold. Sure, there is the aesthetic that INCORPORATES reenforcement as integral to a SOUND CONCEPT (Laurie Anderson etc) but ANY time that approach IGNORES what can be gotten from the instrument FIRST, it loses much, and THAT is what is becoming a lost art. We have an artificial audience-expected ('lazy-listener' I call it) aesthetic here that goes far beyond the topic at hand and plays directly into the loudness wars Big Broadway Sound and every movie we see. It started in the 40's with soloists boosted on radio and then live so that the band did NOT need to be properly arranged to BACK them instead of have them boosted above the band. Imagine watching the Basie band on tour in the 70's work with a singer and have the power fail in the middle of the tune and within a MEASURE that band was brought down BEHIND the singer and ballanced right. magic. A 10 piece brass section playing ensemble playing pianissimo behind a soloist results in a COMLETELY different timbre adn emotional connection than the same section playing mezzo backing a boosted soloist. Couple that with the VERY real loss of human and emotional contact you get MERELY by putting even the best sound system between a player and an audience and you have a very tough hurdle to get over, one that's all but invisible. Even all those basses lined up in an orchestra are not as loud as they look like they should be. "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between what you say and what you think you have said." -george (paraphrased) |
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#18
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either is the triangle. but youd be surprised how much it can add when
it can be heard!!! george The triangle is louder than **** in arrangement terms. By this I mean: how audible it is relative to other instruments in a non-amplified situation. A triangle can easily be heard over a full orchestra tutti thanks to it's piercing overtones. "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between what you say and what you think you have said." -george (paraphrased) |
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#19
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As an arranger I would point out that the bass is not a very loud
instrument, and can easily be drowned out by a loud drum kit and piano. played badly/inappropriately SURE, but then that fits for ANY musician (amped or not) that doesn;t know how to play with other musicians. OK, I suppose a single unamplified bass could be considered loud relative to a banging piano, drums and brass if you beat your strings with a sledgehammer. I think you have a situation in mind where the other players are lowering their dynamics considerably to achieve balance. That's a nice situation, but take your average skill college jazz group and watch what happens. A little reinforcement on bass doesn't hurt. I know guys who only use the amp for around 30-40% of their sound. It's more of a subliminal boost than anything. I fail to see the sacriledge in this. We have an artificial audience-expected ('lazy-listener' I call it) aesthetic here that goes far beyond the topic at hand and plays directly into the loudness wars Big Broadway Sound and every movie we see. Movie theaters are cranked WAY too loud these days, but at least there is dynamic range unlike pop music. Imagine watching the Basie band on tour in the 70's work with a singer and have the power fail in the middle of the tune and within a MEASURE that band was brought down BEHIND the singer and ballanced right. magic. Look, I wish everyone who calls themselves a "musician" would learn how to be one, but the situation on the streets falls way short of par. Couple that with the VERY real loss of human and emotional contact you get MERELY by putting even the best sound system between a player and an audience and you have a very tough hurdle to get over, one that's all but invisible. I think amplified sound can be boring in alot of ways. Especially the "arena" concert scenario where you're better off staying home and listening to the recording. But the reality is that you can't hear a single human voice above rock drums. I like smaller setups, with the amps providing 100% of the guitar sound and only the singer amplified. It still doesn't hold a candle to the sensation of real sound waves from the instruments in an acoustic space hitting you. "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between what you say and what you think you have said." -george (paraphrased) |
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#20
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I've nothing against amplification, but I would argue that nothing can
beat the rush of a full brass section playing maxed out. except to share it with 6000 people all grooveing on the energy of it That's the problem. 5800 of them should sit home and listen to the CD. We've a long way to go with sound playback and recording. Even the best speakers are a long way from the real thing. Real instruments have this incredible healing power. I come out after attending an intense performance and I'm practically shaking, in a good way. "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between what you say and what you think you have said." -george (paraphrased) |
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#21
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#22
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#23
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in article , knud at
lahblah wrote on 8/29/04 10:01 PM: As an arranger I would point out that the bass is not a very loud instrument, and can easily be drowned out by a loud drum kit and piano. played badly/inappropriately SURE, but then that fits for ANY musician (amped or not) that doesn;t know how to play with other musicians. OK, I suppose a single unamplified bass could be considered loud relative to a banging piano, drums and brass if you beat your strings with a sledgehammer. I think you have a situation in mind where the other players are lowering their dynamics considerably to achieve balance. well DUHHHH!!! (sorry... but what else -IS- there to playing as a group?) That's a nice situation, but take your average skill college jazz group and watch what happens. It's MY fault they can;t play? But then again the 'kids' playing in those bands THESE days -scare- me. THe best indeed are working with a classical aesthetic adn CAN and DO do -just- this thing: ballance. A little reinforcement on bass doesn't hurt. I know guys who only use the amp for around 30-40% of their sound. It's more of a subliminal boost than anything. I fail to see the sacriledge in this. We have a real aesthetic difference here I think... we may have to agree-to-disagree. In my book 30-40% is WAYYYYYYY beyond any reality that I could ever call 'subliminal'. Particularly for an instrument that, with piano and parlor instruments, playing to 50-200 people should (and has for generations) indeed work naturally together. I do subliminal sound for several clients. It's the best treat I get all year. It has everything to do with the fact that you have no real idea there's a sound system on unless it drops out. Usually I build the whole thing around the natural piano. The musicians are exceptional: they LIVE to balance, you know, like, what are they called again? oh yeah... classical musicians, those folks who sit in a circle and LIVe to balance against each other. THat's the art. That's the concept. That's the mandate. That's just where it STARTS. After that you start to get into things like musicality, expression, passion, art. We may well be living with very different botom lines here. We have an artificial audience-expected ('lazy-listener' I call it) aesthetic here that goes far beyond the topic at hand and plays directly into the loudness wars Big Broadway Sound and every movie we see. Movie theaters are cranked WAY too loud these days, but at least there is dynamic range unlike pop music. not that much, you can;t be softer than th epopcorn and louder than pain. Imagine watching the Basie band on tour in the 70's work with a singer and have the power fail in the middle of the tune and within a MEASURE that band was brought down BEHIND the singer and ballanced right. magic. Look, I wish everyone who calls themselves a "musician" would learn how to be one, but the situation on the streets falls way short of par. exactly what we're bemoaning here. Without that commiseration we can;t keep it up front and address it getting better. Couple that with the VERY real loss of human and emotional contact you get MERELY by putting even the best sound system between a player and an audience and you have a very tough hurdle to get over, one that's all but invisible. I think amplified sound can be boring in alot of ways. Especially the "arena" concert scenario where you're better off staying home and listening to the recording. But the reality is that you can't hear a single human voice above rock drums. rock is NOT whjat we're talking about here. rock mandates amps. Rather than ballance, it demands loud. I like smaller setups, with the amps providing 100% of the guitar sound and only the singer amplified. I'm working in one. Equivalents of a Deluxe for each guitar, 100w bass thru 4 10's and a vox-only PA. All working against the drum kit itself. It's great. It still doesn't hold a candle to the sensation of real sound waves from the instruments in an acoustic space hitting you. Like th edifference between a great playground swing and a killer rollercoaster. 2 VERY different rides, but each perfect in and of itself. |
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#24
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#25
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Imagine watching the Basie band on tour in the 70's
work with a singer and have the power fail in the middle of the tune and within a MEASURE that band was brought down BEHIND the singer and ballanced right. magic. I 'mixed' the Count Basie Orchestra some years back in a 2,000 seat hall. They arrived too late for a sound check, but were unworried. They said to mic the string bass, the piano, & put a solo mic out front. No monitors. I did this, then they proceeded to mix themselves perfectly. The blend within each section was perfect, the blend between each section was perfect & the volume appropriate to the venue, with only the slightest help from the piano, bass & solo mics. Incredible, the most pro band I've run across in many years. I really didn't have to do anything once they hit the stage. Scott Fraser |
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#26
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#27
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#28
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#29
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#30
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"JoVee" wrote in message ... in article , George at wrote on 8/29/04 9:59 AM: In article , (Scott Dorsey) wrote: George wrote: In article , (Scott Dorsey) wrote: DCC wrote: Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an instrument?!?!? It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the classical world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed with no amplification. As long as this remains the case in any sector of the music industry, there will be a need for that practice, dedication, and torment, because there won't be any way around it. what does amplification have to do with it? Because a sound reinforcement system that is designed for amplification can also do all sorts of other things when the audience isn't looking. If you get rid of it completely, you also get rid of a lot of other crutches that come along with it. Also, of course, without a sound reinforcement system, performers are forced to learn about dynamics and to learn to control them properly, because there is nobody else to do it for them. MY POV is the musician comes first GEORGE... note one BIG thing... (and this isn't MENTIONEd for teh purpose of ciomplementing you, but certainly can and should be TAKEn as one) your work aesthetic is, at least in teh circles where I travel, NOT the norm, and more important, NOT what a lot of players INSIST on: they don;t HAVe great tone and thus EXPECT you to 'invent' that for them. The classic wonderful (and to me inherent cornerstone) idea of a 'sound person/system' that by design and expectation is basically a WINDOW isn't what's wanted by the folks who figure it ain;t THEIR fault they sound like they do. I get the feeling that you capitalize words more or less randomly. :-) Norm Strong |
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#31
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The triangle is louder than **** in arrangement terms. By this I mean: how
audible it is relative to other instruments in a non-amplified situation. A triangle can easily be heard over a full orchestra tutti thanks to it's piercing overtones. not outdoors to 200o folks spread over 4 acres George An orchestra in general is not loud in that case. "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between what you say and what you think you have said." -george (paraphrased) |
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#32
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#33
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Why do we tolerate this? Why do be support those people by attending
their concerts and buying their CDs? Why not encourage them to practice more before playing out in public or trying to sell their wares? Hey, I don't buy em! But then "practicing on the public" isn't just limited to musicians. Ever buy any commerical software? No kidding. "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between what you say and what you think you have said." -george (paraphrased) |
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#34
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But if the band isn't playing like a group, then you're not listening
to anything real at a concert either. You're listening to a reproduction. And as you said, it has a way to go - whether the speakers are on stage or in a listening room. The problem is ego and lack of education. Most "rock" guys I meet talk about how they are only "playing for themselves" and all this other stuff. I prefer to play WITH a group so that its sounds good to the AUDIENCE instead of merely stroking my ego to compensate for lack of musicianship or even talent. Every time I try to start a band I run into this problem. People do not understand context and what it takes to make an arrangement work as a whole. They just want to slap their dick on the instrument and try to get some dirty snatch. "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between what you say and what you think you have said." -george (paraphrased) |
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#35
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YOu and me both. HOwever let me tell you a story from the opposite
side of the fence Interesting story. I myself play all sides of all fences. I compose for live ensembles but also pieces that are purely electronic, or some combination. I generally go for the combination playing to the strengths and weaknesses of real and imagined instruments (such as bizarre electronic textures mixed in with the live ensemble) "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between what you say and what you think you have said." -george (paraphrased) |
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#36
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knud wrote:
The problem is ego and lack of education. Most "rock" guys I meet talk about how they are only "playing for themselves" and all this other stuff. I prefer to play WITH a group so that its sounds good to the AUDIENCE instead of merely stroking my ego to compensate for lack of musicianship or even talent. Every time I try to start a band I run into this problem. People do not understand context and what it takes to make an arrangement work as a whole. They just want to slap their dick on the instrument and try to get some dirty snatch. I knew a guy that fit that description. He had been in every band in the community, but never for long because nobody wanted to put up with his unwillingness to thing in terms of an ensemble. He died young and was buried with his favorite guitar. As he and his coffin were lowered into the grave, the guy next to me whispered, "At least we'll never have to hear another endless solo on that guitar." But it's great when you finally find some people who actually play together. The last band I was in was just this way. We haven't gigged regularly in seven years, but manage to get together one or two times per year and play at parties. Last Saturday night was one such occasion. Something was amiss the first time the keyboardist went to a Hammond sample through her Leslie and she was about 10 dB below the level that would have been appropriate. Most bands would have run her over like a ladder fallen from a truck on the freeway, but within a measure we had all pulled back and made room for her to play. "This," I thought, "is what I liked about playing in this band!" -- ================================================== ====================== Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make | two, one and one make one." | - The Who, Bargain |
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#37
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in article FRHYc.94273$mD.80761@attbi_s02, normanstrong at
wrote on 8/30/04 11:38 AM: I get the feeling that you capitalize words more or less randomly. :-) not hardly... |
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#38
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not knowing the room it's tough.
Local place here GORGEOUS 200 seat acoustic space. Problem was incoming artists sounded AWFUL. said space WILL NOT support amplified music ESPECIALLY anything with stage monitors. teh stage area is cavernous, reverberant and projects that back into the hall by DESIGN. Crack a monitor facing the artist and its reverberated washback is what hits the audience. mess. answer? anything that needs amplification to balance has its speakers (specifically WIDE dispersion speakers mind you) upstage BEHIND the band and thus becomes an acoustical integral part of what comes off stage. |
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#39
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#40
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Any thoughts anyone?
Get a full description of your equipment to the potential headliner right away explaining the situation & asking if they can work with it. Don't let the promoter wait until too late, then spring a nasty disappointment on the headlining act when they show up. Scott Fraser |
Linear Mode
