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#1
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How often do you do a show with no soundcheck? Exception or rule?
Did a show last night at a very swanky club in Denver.
They had the house music cranked insanely loud with that nasty techno-dance crap and they wouldn't turn it off for us to do a sound-check. Unfortunatly I'm not experienced enough to do a sound-check without hearing my system and our current sound-person is the drummer's girlfriend who, bless her heart, is working her tail off but is way to inexperienced to mix from scratch. As a result we fought most of the night with feedback and generally bad sound. The more she tried to fix things the worse things got. Between sets my brother and I troubleshot and fixed some things. One thing I found was that I didn't have a good enough signal coming out of the mains eq so she had to crank channel gain knobs to get enough volume, which, of course contributed to feedback problems and distortion/clipping. This is an issue that I would likely have noticed and fixed when I did a real soundcheck. The rational/professional side of me thinks that if a club isn't professional enough to give us the opportunity to make our product sound as good as it can then I just won't play there. At risk here is speakers that can be blown, vocal cords that can be blown, a reputation that can be blown... This is really a no-brainer to me, but then I'm coming from the professional musician's viewpoint not the professional (or un-professional as the case may be) club owner perspective. Will this kind of approach/limitation/demand limit the clubs we can play in? Is this that common? Thanks to all, Shawn |
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#5
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On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:16:37 +0000, Shawn wrote:
Did a show last night at a very swanky club in Denver. They had the house music cranked insanely loud with that nasty techno-dance crap and they wouldn't turn it off for us to do a sound-check. Unfortunatly I'm not experienced enough to do a sound-check without hearing my system and our current sound-person is the drummer's girlfriend who, bless her heart, is working her tail off but is way to inexperienced to mix from scratch. As a result we fought most of the night with feedback and generally bad sound. [...snip] This is really a no-brainer to me, but then I'm coming from the professional musician's viewpoint not the professional (or un-professional as the case may be) club owner perspective. If you're so professional, did you ever think of hiring a professional sound crew? Any competetent FOH guy shuld be able to set the basics by sight, and pull the basic mix by half way through the first verse. And have the whole mix ok by the end of the first song. If the band is professional too, you could consider giving him an easy time of it by starting out with, say, 4 bars of bass and drums, then have the gtr come in, etc - don't try to start him off with 5 harmonies, 3 brass 2 keys 2 gtrs etc all in the intro to your first number... And who is your manager? Is he another "professional" too - like your drummer's girlfriend? Did he advance the show? Did he even mention load-in/sound-check times with the venue when booking the gig? [come to think of it, how many "professional" drummers do you know who have their girlfriends come to the gig, let alone mess with the sound desk?] And did you say "most of the night"? You're lucky the venue management didn't kick you off the stage after the first few songs. I'm betting "professional" isn't one of the first words that comes to their minds when remembering your performance that night. ps. Denver is a nice place - I was there in '98. What's the name of this "very swanky" club - is it new? |
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#6
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how many "professional" drummers do you know who
have their girlfriends come to the gig, let alone mess with the sound desk?] hah. that's funny. |
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#8
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Is her name YOKO!
"Mondoslug1" wrote in message ... how many "professional" drummers do you know who have their girlfriends come to the gig, let alone mess with the sound desk?] hah. that's funny. |
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#9
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#10
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Wow Merlin, read your ****ty, nah-nah, unhelpful reply and learn how to
communicate. Why be such a dick to the guy? Troll city. No doubt you don't do that face to face. What an angry man. "Merlin Zener" wrote in message news  On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:16:37 +0000, Shawn wrote: Did a show last night at a very swanky club in Denver. They had the house music cranked insanely loud with that nasty techno-dance crap and they wouldn't turn it off for us to do a sound-check. Unfortunatly I'm not experienced enough to do a sound-check without hearing my system and our current sound-person is the drummer's girlfriend who, bless her heart, is working her tail off but is way to inexperienced to mix from scratch. As a result we fought most of the night with feedback and generally bad sound. [...snip] This is really a no-brainer to me, but then I'm coming from the professional musician's viewpoint not the professional (or un-professional as the case may be) club owner perspective. If you're so professional, did you ever think of hiring a professional sound crew? Any competetent FOH guy shuld be able to set the basics by sight, and pull the basic mix by half way through the first verse. And have the whole mix ok by the end of the first song. If the band is professional too, you could consider giving him an easy time of it by starting out with, say, 4 bars of bass and drums, then have the gtr come in, etc - don't try to start him off with 5 harmonies, 3 brass 2 keys 2 gtrs etc all in the intro to your first number... And who is your manager? Is he another "professional" too - like your drummer's girlfriend? Did he advance the show? Did he even mention load-in/sound-check times with the venue when booking the gig? [come to think of it, how many "professional" drummers do you know who have their girlfriends come to the gig, let alone mess with the sound desk?] And did you say "most of the night"? You're lucky the venue management didn't kick you off the stage after the first few songs. I'm betting "professional" isn't one of the first words that comes to their minds when remembering your performance that night. ps. Denver is a nice place - I was there in '98. What's the name of this "very swanky" club - is it new? |
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#11
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he did sound angry. Glad he's not in my band.
"sean" wrote in message t... Wow Merlin, read your ****ty, nah-nah, unhelpful reply and learn how to communicate. Why be such a dick to the guy? Troll city. No doubt you don't do that face to face. What an angry man. "Merlin Zener" wrote in message news On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:16:37 +0000, Shawn wrote: Did a show last night at a very swanky club in Denver. They had the house music cranked insanely loud with that nasty techno-dance crap and they wouldn't turn it off for us to do a sound-check. Unfortunatly I'm not experienced enough to do a sound-check without hearing my system and our current sound-person is the drummer's girlfriend who, bless her heart, is working her tail off but is way to inexperienced to mix from scratch. As a result we fought most of the night with feedback and generally bad sound. [...snip] This is really a no-brainer to me, but then I'm coming from the professional musician's viewpoint not the professional (or un-professional as the case may be) club owner perspective. If you're so professional, did you ever think of hiring a professional sound crew? Any competetent FOH guy shuld be able to set the basics by sight, and pull the basic mix by half way through the first verse. And have the whole mix ok by the end of the first song. If the band is professional too, you could consider giving him an easy time of it by starting out with, say, 4 bars of bass and drums, then have the gtr come in, etc - don't try to start him off with 5 harmonies, 3 brass 2 keys 2 gtrs etc all in the intro to your first number... And who is your manager? Is he another "professional" too - like your drummer's girlfriend? Did he advance the show? Did he even mention load-in/sound-check times with the venue when booking the gig? [come to think of it, how many "professional" drummers do you know who have their girlfriends come to the gig, let alone mess with the sound desk?] And did you say "most of the night"? You're lucky the venue management didn't kick you off the stage after the first few songs. I'm betting "professional" isn't one of the first words that comes to their minds when remembering your performance that night. ps. Denver is a nice place - I was there in '98. What's the name of this "very swanky" club - is it new? |
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#12
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On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:16:37 -0700, Shawn wrote:
Did a show last night at a very swanky club in Denver. They had the house music cranked insanely loud with that nasty techno-dance crap and they wouldn't turn it off for us to do a sound-check. Unfortunatly I'm not experienced enough to do a sound-check without hearing my system and our current sound-person is the drummer's girlfriend who, bless her heart, is working her tail off but is way to inexperienced to mix from scratch. As a result we fought most of the night with feedback and generally bad sound. The more she tried to fix things the worse things got. Between sets my brother and I troubleshot and fixed some things. One thing I found was that I didn't have a good enough signal coming out of the mains eq so she had to crank channel gain knobs to get enough volume, which, of course contributed to feedback problems and distortion/clipping. This is an issue that I would likely have noticed and fixed when I did a real soundcheck. The rational/professional side of me thinks that if a club isn't professional enough to give us the opportunity to make our product sound as good as it can then I just won't play there. At risk here is speakers that can be blown, vocal cords that can be blown, a reputation that can be blown... This is really a no-brainer to me, but then I'm coming from the professional musician's viewpoint not the professional (or un-professional as the case may be) club owner perspective. Will this kind of approach/limitation/demand limit the clubs we can play in? Is this that common? Thanks to all, Shawn My band actually wrote a song called 'soundchecking' for these situations. It starts with drums, then bass comes in etc. The arrangement is pretty loose so we can jam around until the sound comes together. We announce the song as 'soundchecking', and the audience seems to get the idea. We try to get as much done as possible while the DJ is playing beforehand too (just play over the music, but as little as possible). Most gigs we are set up and soundchecked way before the place opens though, that really is the only professional way. If it's a venue that knows anything about live music there will be a schedule for all bands soundchecks so support bands etc are ready too. |
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#13
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Most gigs we are set up and soundchecked way before the place opens though, that really is the only professional way. If it's a venue that knows anything about live music there will be a schedule for all bands soundchecks so support bands etc are ready too. what bugs me much worse than no soundcheck is after the show , the clubs patrons are gone yet to barbacks blast the house PA at full tilt with thier favorite "music" for just the three of them to "enjoy" George |
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#14
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[come to think of it, how many "professional" drummers do you know who have their girlfriends come to the gig, let alone mess with the sound desk?] What I think we have here is an ugly, frustrated drummer who can't get a girlfriend. That is why he never sees the drummer's girlfriend at the gig! Anyone else ever see the squeeze from the last gig at the current show? This guy has never seen this. So, we know that a one nighter would be his longest relationship. I think he has a right to be angry.... but not at us! -Sax |
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#15
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As you have now found out, it's better to not play at all than to put on an inadequate performance due to technical problems. Reminds me of when I saw Rick Deringer playing with a wireless rig that would not work and how his refusal to go corded made the whole gig sound like crap in the long run. |
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#16
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On 28 Aug 2004 12:16:37 -0700, (Shawn)
wrote: Did a show last night at a very swanky club in Denver. They had the house music cranked insanely loud with that nasty techno-dance crap and they wouldn't turn it off for us to do a sound-check. Were you there early enough to do a sound-check? Once the punters are in is too late. CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect |
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#17
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Being prevented from doing a soundcheck under those circumstances constitutes failure to provide the necessary facilities to perform your job. You don't even need a tech rider for that to stand up in court. Simply give a manager an invoice for the full agreed rate including your lawyer's contact info, and start loading the gear back into the van. Huh? Huh? Good luck in SR my friend. I'll come visit you once we develope commercial interstellar flight. Granted a soundcheck is nice, it's hardly on the bill of rights or the original constitution. It's hard enough to get paid when there is a rider violation, usually you just end up with the deposit unless you're a BIG national I wonder who's got the best story of the hardest gig he's ever done with no check. I've got a few (even though it's been years since I've specialized in music. Any act I regularly mixed back then was no big deal to do with no check , I'd be listenable very quickly. As others have said, anything that starts with drums and builds is helpfull. Here's a story that wasn't me . New Years Eve,2000 one of my regular venues had a BIG party 5 rooms, main one (which I didn't contract, I was too spead out between the others) was a 1000 capacity (at least) circus style tent complete with several acts , headlined by Elvis Wade and his 21 piece full production including the original Jordinaires (who were replaced at the last minute due to one of the Jords being sick.) They did not arrive till after then production was started, and there was no time between acts (Hawaian dance reveue on the front of the stage while band assembled behind them) No sound check, just a line check. The talent took it in stride (I think they had bus problems. The standard Elvis opening makes a pretty good sound check song, and it was more than listneable when Elvis Wade came on. His first song was listenable from the start started gelling halfway through and it was tight before the end on the first song. Keep in mind this is a 21 piece band, horns ,etc.rented backline which the band was unfamiliar including several gear substitutions. . My kudos to the SR co. I can't remember names, I was very busy that night myself I had the other 3 rooms. They were from Chicago, and for some reason were in Atlanta the week before |
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#18
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If you're so professional, did you ever think of hiring a professional
sound crew? Yeah, and we thought that paying them our entire paycheck, and probably then some, was not the right approach. Are you implying that if we don't have a professional sound "crew" we aren't professional musicians or a professional band? If you are, then you'd be wrong. I may not have a ton of experience with setting up and running sound in every situation possible, but I am a professional musician. We were there on time and, to my amazement, found out that a club that has live music on a regular basis wouldn't allow a sound-check. Any competetent FOH guy shuld be able to set the basics by sight, and pull the basic mix by half way through the first verse. And have the whole mix ok by the end of the first song. And that is our problem. We are probably competent in setting up our rig and getting it to sound good, but only with a realistic sound check. Our current sound-person, yes the drummer's girlfriend who is busting her tail to help us out, is not yet experienced enough to mix quickly from scratch. Likely we would have only needed 30 minutes with me sitting at the board and mixing/eqing individual instruments and then the night would have been peachy-keen; but noooooooooo! If the band is professional too, you could consider giving him an easy time of it by starting out with, say, 4 bars of bass and drums, then have the gtr come in, etc - don't try to start him off with 5 harmonies, 3 brass 2 keys 2 gtrs etc all in the intro to your first number... A very good idea. And who is your manager? Is he another "professional" too - like your drummer's girlfriend? Did he advance the show? Did he even mention load-in/sound-check times with the venue when booking the gig? Nope. The "manager" is the other guitarist's wife who has some sales experience and has offered her time, and is also busting her ass. Alas, we are a band of experienced musicians who regularly (read M-F) work day jobs and can use all the help we can get. This particular gig was aquired by her efforts in hounding a local agent who asked us to fill in when he had a cancelation. We had about 24 hours notice and don't have the experience to anticipate all eventualities; like sound-check, load out time... [come to think of it, how many "professional" drummers do you know who have their girlfriends come to the gig, let alone mess with the sound desk?] Again she offered her time and we, at present, don't have anyone to sit and mix the sound. You keep tossing this word "professional" around as like if we don't adhere to your standards we aren't professional. Perhaps you should use the word seasoned or experienced instead. We are all seasoned players who have played in bands for years but have not had the opportunity or the need to run the sound ourselves. Now it's a must and we are learning how and are learning that it's way more difficult than we expected. In our defense we have yet to play a gig where we got a good sound-check. I think that will solve most, if not all, of our problems. So, I must say that I take offense at the inference that we are unprofessional just because we don't know everything that you do, or that you think we should! And did you say "most of the night"? You're lucky the venue management didn't kick you off the stage after the first few songs. I'm betting "professional" isn't one of the first words that comes to their minds when remembering your performance that night. Perhaps that shows you just how much of a "professional" band we are! We were able to impress the audience (dance floor full the entire night) and the management with something other than optimum sound quality. So put that in your "professional" pipe and smoke it! ps. Denver is a nice place - I was there in '98. What's the name of this "very swanky" club - is it new? Damn right it is! Don't know how new the club is. It is called the "cool river cafe" and it was chock full of yuppy types dressed in their suits with their Cadilac Escalades and Beamers out in the parking lot parked by the valet. Fits the description of "swanky" in my book. Thanks for your suggestions; I think. Shawn |
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#19
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Snip
Basics of no soundcheck prefade your inputs with the amps off get all mics at about the same level on the vu meters all eq to flat monitor mixes wash all vocals in each wedge with the mic infront of a wedge a little louder anything that is far across stage mix a little in drums get kick , keys , guitars and a modest level of vocals start with your master fader at about -20 your monitor sends about where experiance tell you they should be(for me aux master about 3/4 open no channel aux over 1/2 way) explain to the band no to whine about monitors until break have your focus on the vocal mics and GO otherwise at the start time go through your sound check with the band doing some sort of jammy whatever song thank the audience for patience during the sound check and GO George Now that's what I call a helpful reply!! Thank you. I will enter your thoughts into my notes and memorize them. They shall become my mantra!! You are my hero! Shawn |
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#20
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"Shawn" wrote in message om... snip This is an issue that I would likely have noticed and fixed when I did a real soundcheck. The rational/professional side of me thinks that if a club isn't professional enough to give us the opportunity to make our product sound as good as it can then I just won't play there. At risk here is speakers that can be blown, vocal cords that can be blown, a reputation that can be blown... This is really a no-brainer to me, but then I'm coming from the professional musician's viewpoint not the professional (or un-professional as the case may be) club owner perspective. Will this kind of approach/limitation/demand limit the clubs we can play in? Is this that common? Thanks to all, Shawn first which club were you in? Quixote's (sp)? and yes it is a bad approach when trying to get into more venues insisting on sound checks when you don't show up before 7pm... also there are so many bands out there that are willing to play for pennies and not complain about sound systems because they just want to get their spot to be seen... what alot of musicians don't realize is that Guitar Center and Musicians Friend and all of the others are big and in business because there are alot of bands around, with that said it isn't a big deal (unless you have a known draw) to say "we wont play" because there are 1000's of other bands waiting for that stage to be open... now with the sound issues: in my case the troupe I run with, can go with out sound checks as 1. I carry my own Mics and DI's so I have a good idea as to what I will be getting from the stage. 2. (in the case where the system is already working for DJ) I listen to the system look at the amps get a grasp for how its responding. and 3. I've been doing it (sound) long enough! with that I can go on the fly and it not be a big deal... hope this helps... so get your mics and a good workable input list together it speeds up things when pinning the stage as well as give your FOH person a better sense of consistency which helps for those time sound checks aren't possible... wait til you get to doing festivals michael |
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#22
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Shawn wrote:
And that is our problem. We are probably competent in setting up our rig and getting it to sound good, but only with a realistic sound check. Our current sound-person, yes the drummer's girlfriend who is busting her tail to help us out, is not yet experienced enough to mix quickly from scratch. Likely we would have only needed 30 minutes with me sitting at the board and mixing/eqing individual instruments and then the night would have been peachy-keen; but noooooooooo! Well, what instrument do you play? You're not the drummer, so perhaps if a situation like this presents itself, how about this plan: do as much as you can (rough mix, EQ for instruments, etc.) in advance of the show with headphones or whatever. Then, have everyone in the band except you start the show by playing an instrumental. Fix everything you can during the first song (which should be most of it), and then hand things off to the drummer's girlfriend and go up and join the rest of the band. Of course, this approach won't work as well if you're the lead singer or the bass player... Or make it standard procedure when booking a gig to get them to agree to a soundcheck. If they won't, then hire a sound guy for just that one gig. - Logan |
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#23
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Logan Shaw wrote:
Well, what instrument do you play? You're not the drummer, so perhaps if a situation like this presents itself, how about this plan: do as much as you can (rough mix, EQ for instruments, etc.) in advance of the show with headphones or whatever. Then, have everyone in the band except you start the show by playing an instrumental. Fix everything you can during the first song (which should be most of it), and then hand things off to the drummer's girlfriend and go up and join the rest of the band. Of course, this approach won't work as well if you're the lead singer or the bass player... Now there's some good advise. |
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#24
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How often do you do a show with no soundcheck? Exception or rule? Group: rec.audio.pro Date: Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 4:29am (EDT+4) From: (reese=A0thomas) snippage My kudos to the SR co. I can't remember names, I was very busy that night myself I had the other 3 rooms. They were from Chicago, and for some reason were in Atlanta the week before On Stage Audio out of Chicago? |
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#25
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Shawn wrote:
If you're so professional, did you ever think of hiring a professional sound crew? Yeah, and we thought that paying them our entire paycheck, and probably then some, was not the right approach. Are you implying that if we don't have a professional sound "crew" we aren't professional musicians or a professional band? If you are, then you'd be wrong. Merlin seems to have a lot of pent up anger. He should probably seek some "Professional" help to sort it all out. Meanwhile, just ignore anything he says that sound like an insult. The sad fact is these days, most club gigs don't pay the whole band as much as a "Professional" sound man would charge. One alternative is to make the soundguy a "member" of your band. You're splitting out one more share, but at least you're not paying out more than you're making. I may not have a ton of experience with setting up and running sound in every situation possible, but I am a professional musician. We were there on time and, to my amazement, found out that a club that has live music on a regular basis wouldn't allow a sound-check. OK, wait a minute. You seem to like the word "Experience" almost as much as Merlin likes "Professional". No insult intended (just making sure we're all on the same page), but just how much experience do you (and the band) have playing out in clubs? This kind of thing happens sometimes (and sometimes the club owner refuses to pay you, and sometimes the acoustics suck, and sometimes the house electrical system has serious problems). These are things you have to deal with. You can insist on a written contract; you can make you tech rider part of that contract, and you can play hardball on that contract IF you're willing to walk away from some gigs in the process. --snip some of Merlin's vitriolic drivel-- And that is our problem. We are probably competent in setting up our rig and getting it to sound good, but only with a realistic sound check. Our current sound-person, yes the drummer's girlfriend who is busting her tail to help us out, is not yet experienced enough to mix quickly from scratch. Likely we would have only needed 30 minutes with me sitting at the board and mixing/eqing individual instruments and then the night would have been peachy-keen; but noooooooooo! First, work on removing the word "Likely" from that last sentence. Then work on getting it down to 15 minutes. Then... Be creative. Do you always practice at the same place? If so, start rehearsing at each member's house on a rotating basis. Let the soundchick get a mix at each place so she HAS A CHANCE to get good at it. If possible, record all rehearsals (single mic mono at the mix position) for a sanity check. If recording's not possible, the band members can take turns laying out & listening at the mix position. Listen to the tapes together & make constructive suggestions to help her out. Whether you're paying her a split or not, you should consider her a member of your band. If your lead singer quit, would you play a critical gig with a new singer before he/she was well rehearsed & comfortable with your show? --snip some more of Merlin's drivel and Shawn's responses-- You keep tossing this word "professional" around as like if we don't adhere to your standards we aren't professional. Perhaps you should use the word seasoned or experienced instead. We are all seasoned players who have played in bands for years but have not had the opportunity or the need to run the sound ourselves. Now it's a must and we are learning how and are learning that it's way more difficult than we expected. I'm having a hard time understanding how you managed to play in bands for years without ever having to be responsible for your own sound. Granted, it's been a long time since I started out, but I can't count the times I've mixed from stage rather than trust a less than comptent "house engineer", or because no house engineer was asvailable. In our defense we have yet to play a gig where we got a good sound-check. I think that will solve most, if not all, of our problems. Maybe, but I wouldn't count on it. Perhaps that shows you just how much of a "professional" band we are! We were able to impress the audience (dance floor full the entire night) and the management with something other than optimum sound quality. Kinda cool the way that works, huh? Bands have to compete with DJs for gigs because club owners only look at the bottom line. But audiences seem to amost always dig a live band more, even if the sound sucks or the band has an off night. Maybe if they'd get their asses off the dance floor & buy more beer, the club owners would come around. |
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#26
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#27
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Being prevented from doing a soundcheck under those circumstances
constitutes failure to provide the necessary facilities to perform your job. You don't even need a tech rider for that to stand up in court. Simply give a manager an invoice for the full agreed rate including your lawyer's contact info, and start loading the gear back into the van. Huh? Huh? Good luck in SR my friend. I'll come visit you once we develope commercial interstellar flight. Granted a soundcheck is nice, it's hardly on the bill of rights or the original constitution. First, I said under those circumstances. Unfamiliar conditions, inexperienced techs, the show was doomed before they arrived, and the club made no accommodations to improve the situation. And I also said to *start* loading the gear back into the van - just posturing, but it works. Whether or not it's better to leave and sue or stay and tough it out is again a decision for a sound tech / road manager. It's hard enough to get paid when there is a rider violation, usually you just end up with the deposit unless you're a BIG national Who is protected by a contract? The guy with the best lawyer. A contract (even a verbal or implied one) is just the ground rules by which lawyers compete against each other. If your lawyer is competent enough to at least give the impression that it's less costly to pay up than to fight a costly and potentially losing battle, then regardless of the contract terms, that posturing is that much more effective. Unfortunately far too many musicians think that all they have to learn about their business is music. Most singers won't pony up for a microphone, much less a lawyer's retainer... |
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#28
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"Sugarite" wrote :
Being prevented from doing a soundcheck under those circumstances constitutes failure to provide the necessary facilities to perform your job. Nice try, but the general consensus is that you soundcheck before the venue opens, not during opening hours. I doubt very much a case like this would hold up in court. To be honest coming into a club, especially one where it's not just live music, without informing on soundcheck possibilities first is a sign of unprofessional behaviour if you ask me.. Bands I work for that require a soundcheck (or to put it better, want to do a soundcheck) call the venue a few days before the gig to inform about which time they can do a soundcheck. -- Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows, how are you gonna guarantee my safety.. --John Crichton - Farscape pilot |
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#29
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#30
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Snip
The sad fact is these days, most club gigs don't pay the whole band as much as a "Professional" sound man would charge. One alternative is to make the soundguy a "member" of your band. You're splitting out one more share, but at least you're not paying out more than you're making. Yeah, we're thinking about that. OK, wait a minute. You seem to like the word "Experience" almost as much as Merlin likes "Professional". No insult intended (just making sure we're all on the same page), but just how much experience do you (and the band) have playing out in clubs? Not a hell of a lot. I've always had a knack of joining bands that were on the verge of breaking up. I'd join, learn the tunes, play a few gigs and then that would be it. I've had a medium sized PA for about 15 years now and it hasn't seen a lot of work. Somewhere in that time I got burned out on the personalities involved in being in a band and took a break for a couple of years. Got back into it hot and heavy 2 years ago but managed to join a band that played mostly clubs with a built in pa and sound guy. So, I have a lot of playing experience, but not a lot of gigging experience; relatively speaking. I'm having a hard time understanding how you managed to play in bands for years without ever having to be responsible for your own sound. Granted, it's been a long time since I started out, but I can't count the times I've mixed from stage rather than trust a less than comptent "house engineer", or because no house engineer was asvailable. Please read the above explanation. Thanks for all your thoughs. Shawn |
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#31
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And lastly, you might be a pro muscician, but that does not mean you are
capable of handling PA. I agree. I'm busting my ass to learn it. I'm improving each time. In fact the given you are fiddling with it yourself means you are not as much a pro as you think you are IMO. I disagree. No we're not perfect and we have a lot of work to do getting to know our pa as well as our own individual instruments but we played that gig Friday night for $500.00 for the band, performed well enough that the agent was impressed and booked us for other gigs (regardless of sound issues), we had the dance floor and the room we were in full the entire night... All this with 2 out of 4 sets having no stage monitors to speak of. Then we turned around and played another club the next night using partially our pa and partially their pa with their soundman and tore that damn place down!!! We're tight as hell, play well together, are always on time and sober, play music people want to dance to, we have fun and so does our audience; and we get paid. Sounds pretty professional to me; unless I'm missing something. Just sticking up for myself. Thanks again for your help. Shawn |
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#32
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To be honest coming into a club, especially one where it's not just live
music, without informing on soundcheck possibilities first is a sign of unprofessional behaviour if you ask me.. Bands I work for that require a soundcheck (or to put it better, want to do a soundcheck) call the venue a few days before the gig to inform about which time they can do a soundcheck. We got the gig the day before as a fill in for a band that cancelled. They wanted us set up and soundchecked before 5pm which was impossible considering some of the band member's schedules for that day. We were told that since this was a short notice thing they would be flexible on the times. I got there at 430pm and the pa was already set up as were the drums, the other guitar and the bass rig. All we were lacking was my guitar rig and the keyboard rig. Having read all the posts in this thread I can think of several things I should have done. There were some things I knew I could do but I got flustered and forgot. If I could do it all over again, and I probably will in some fashion or another, there would be an entirely different outcome. But, common! Is it too much to ask to let the band hear how their system is going to sound before the performance? Especially when you know that they've never been in your room before and they ask for a short sound-check. In the long run it would benefit the club because their live entertainment will sound better. It just sounds like common sense to me. Yes, I know that sometimes we all have to deal with people who have no common sense, but it's still frustrating none-the-less. So, thanks to all for the advice. I've learned a whole lot and will keep pushin' on! I'll do better next time, make a few more mistakes and learn from them as well. I suppose the perfect gig is an elusive concept. Perhaps it is nothing more than a fantasy. But then it's not the kill that counts it's The Thrill Of The Chase!! Shawn |
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#33
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"Shawn" wrote in message ... Will this kind of approach/limitation/demand limit the clubs we can play in? I've really never heard of such a thing as 'totally' disregarding the need for a soundcheck, even if you have to arrive several hours before the DJ starts playing in order to get it done. As to your original header question, I have to do this several times per month. It is still an exception and not the rule.... and for me, it's mostly acoustic acts (solos, duos, trios) that walk in right before showtime and plug in and play. There are lots of "big bash" cases where no-one really gets a sound check. On August 1st, I put 30 acts across a stage in 12 hours and no one got anything more than a line check in the 5-minute change-over periods. An experienced operator who wears the room like a glove should be able to start you 'cold' with no one in the audience really able to tell. Even getting only a line check, if done by an experienced operator, should be enough to start you without sounding like mud. Even an operator that's worth their weight in sand should be able to tweak out the room pretty rapidly to put the quietus on any feedback problems. It also sounds like volume may have been a serious contributing factor to your dilemma... not just the FOH or monitor volume, but stage volume will make additional minor headaches for even an experienced operator. All systems have limits, and your pilot didn't seem (by your description) to have a grip on what those were or how to get the most from it within those limitations. I think, if the problems are as you describe, you should be weighing the validity of bothering to play this place again. If the house provided your system, I can see where an unfamiliar operator might have problems. If you were working with your own gear, it just doesn't seem like it should have gone a badly as you describe. In any case, I'd try to make arrangements for time to accomplish what you need to accomplish before the place opens. If that can't be done and the circumstances are indeed as you described, screw 'em with a big stick... do a short and sweet 'volume-up' line check and make sure your levels are at least within operating parameters. It only takes a couple of seconds per line to be sure you're in the ballpark. One thing a lot of folks overlook when following a great in-house DJ system with a modest PA that they just hauled in the door, is that they aren't going to be able to 'blow away' the darned DJ system. -- David Morgan (MAMS) http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com Morgan Audio Media Service Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901 _______________________________________ http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com |
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#34
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The price your band gets paid for a full night of music is WHAT I CHARGE FOR
4 HOUR OF MIXING TIME, yet alone setup, soundcheck and loadout. Barney Kable "Shawn" wrote in message om... And lastly, you might be a pro muscician, but that does not mean you are capable of handling PA. I agree. I'm busting my ass to learn it. I'm improving each time. In fact the given you are fiddling with it yourself means you are not as much a pro as you think you are IMO. I disagree. No we're not perfect and we have a lot of work to do getting to know our pa as well as our own individual instruments but we played that gig Friday night for $500.00 for the band, performed well enough that the agent was impressed and booked us for other gigs (regardless of sound issues), we had the dance floor and the room we were in full the entire night... All this with 2 out of 4 sets having no stage monitors to speak of. Then we turned around and played another club the next night using partially our pa and partially their pa with their soundman and tore that damn place down!!! We're tight as hell, play well together, are always on time and sober, play music people want to dance to, we have fun and so does our audience; and we get paid. Sounds pretty professional to me; unless I'm missing something. Just sticking up for myself. Thanks again for your help. Shawn |
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#35
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"Barney Kable" wrote in message news The price your band gets paid for a full night of music is WHAT I CHARGE FOR 4 HOUR OF MIXING TIME, yet alone setup, soundcheck and loadout. Half your luck, so what? TonyP. |
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#36
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Shawn wrote:
We got the gig the day before as a fill in for a band that cancelled. They wanted us set up and soundchecked before 5pm which was impossible considering some of the band member's schedules for that day. We were told that since this was a short notice thing they would be flexible on the times. The whole band doesn't have to be there for sound check in those circumstances. Two people can do it if they know what they're doing. I got there at 430pm and the pa was already set up as were the drums, the other guitar and the bass rig. All we were lacking was my guitar rig and the keyboard rig. That would have been the perfect time to set up your rig & soundcheck what you had in place. Then worse case is you have to get keys up on the fly, which is usually a piece of cake. Having read all the posts in this thread I can think of several things I should have done. That's a good sign. There were some things I knew I could do but I got flustered and forgot. Quick, write them down before you forget them again. Then you'll have a checklist for next time. |
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#37
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Barney Kable wrote:
The price your band gets paid for a full night of music is WHAT I CHARGE FOR 4 HOUR OF MIXING TIME, yet alone setup, soundcheck and loadout. Which is exactly why it's not usually feasible for a band doing club gigs to hire an outside soundman. Now call that unprofessional if you want to, but it's the way the world works today. There's a lot fewer clubs having live music at all than there were 20-25 years ago, and those that do generally pay a lot less. |
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#38
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#39
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In article ,
Paul van der Heu wrote: (Shawn) wrote : But, common! Is it too much to ask to let the band hear how their system is going to sound before the performance? no soundcheck for a bar act is no big deal just get on with your job I have never engineered a "real" show(theater or club) where a soundcheck was not part of the schedule I have rarely worked a festival where soundchecks were part of the program get um up , make um loud, get um off, is how festivals go very relaxed festival you might get a line check,maybe! George |
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#40
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Dear sir,
All the festivals I work, LINE CHECKS ARE MANDATORY!!!!!!!! Every act is taped to DAT for archive purposes and all channels must be there from the start ( no humms, buzzes or miss patches) and yes mics and cables do go bad in the middle of a long day. Barney Kable "George" wrote in message ... In article , Paul van der Heu wrote: (Shawn) wrote : But, common! Is it too much to ask to let the band hear how their system is going to sound before the performance? no soundcheck for a bar act is no big deal just get on with your job I have never engineered a "real" show(theater or club) where a soundcheck was not part of the schedule I have rarely worked a festival where soundchecks were part of the program get um up , make um loud, get um off, is how festivals go very relaxed festival you might get a line check,maybe! George |
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