Hey guys. I'm writing with a bit of a concern about my hearing of
sound coming from my monitors. It could be out of phase because of
room reflections, but I've also tried listening on me headphones, and
very subtly the high mid/treble frequencies are more present in my
left ear than my right. Is this just temporary hearing loss or,
coincidently, are my headphones and monitors slightly off? (These are
nowhere near pro-headphones and the monitors are really old, so its
not at all an impossibility). How long/what volume does it take to
cause temporary/permanent frequency-specific hearing loss?
Thanks.--MAtt

Being in the industry, you should be getting a hearing check every year or
two.

Doesn't hurt. Early detection helps ward off problems.

dtk

"Matt" wrote in message
om...
Hey guys. I'm writing with a bit of a concern about my hearing of
sound coming from my monitors. It could be out of phase because of
room reflections, but I've also tried listening on me headphones, and
very subtly the high mid/treble frequencies are more present in my
left ear than my right. Is this just temporary hearing loss or,
coincidently, are my headphones and monitors slightly off? (These are
nowhere near pro-headphones and the monitors are really old, so its
not at all an impossibility). How long/what volume does it take to
cause temporary/permanent frequency-specific hearing loss?
Thanks.--MAtt

My hearing chart shows a huge dip around the 3k range. No single event
caused it, just years of being around noise. The doc says this is only
caused by 'industrial' sounds. There's nothing that can be done to restore
it. And weakened ears are more prone to damage from sudden and loud sound.
Just be thankful you don't have a permanent ring (yet).


"Matt" wrote in message
om...
Hey guys. I'm writing with a bit of a concern about my hearing of
sound coming from my monitors. It could be out of phase because of
room reflections, but I've also tried listening on me headphones, and
very subtly the high mid/treble frequencies are more present in my
left ear than my right. Is this just temporary hearing loss or,
coincidently, are my headphones and monitors slightly off? (These are
nowhere near pro-headphones and the monitors are really old, so its
not at all an impossibility). How long/what volume does it take to
cause temporary/permanent frequency-specific hearing loss?
Thanks.--MAtt

"Matt" wrote in message
om...
Hey guys. I'm writing with a bit of a concern about my hearing of
sound coming from my monitors. It could be out of phase because of
room reflections, but I've also tried listening on me headphones, and
very subtly the high mid/treble frequencies are more present in my
left ear than my right. Is this just temporary hearing loss or,
coincidently, are my headphones and monitors slightly off? (These are
nowhere near pro-headphones and the monitors are really old, so its
not at all an impossibility). How long/what volume does it take to
cause temporary/permanent frequency-specific hearing loss?
Thanks.--MAtt
__________________

Hey Matt:

There seem to be a lot of variables here.

For three nights a week for four years, I was exposed to horrendously loud,
up-close guitars from two Vox Super Beatles back in the 60s.

We practised in a 12' by 12' room, with a drummer.

The bassist played thru and Ampeg amp with four Lancing 16" 420s in two
Ampeg cabinets...

Followed by lotsa very loud headphone work over ensuing decades.

Had a minor ear ache for years, went through a period of Tennitis for a
decade until I had a some molars pulled.

Ongoing hearing tests have always shown my hearing to be exceptional, still
is.

You should pop into a stereo store and check out yer fave CD on some quality
headphones.

And of course, as suggested elsewhere herein, go for regular hearing tests.
Ask for a printout, keep them on file.

Wax build-up is something to check out also, it can occur in one ear to a
greater degree than the other.

-bg-
www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

Matt" wrote in message
. com...
Hey guys. I'm writing with a bit of a concern about my hearing of
sound coming from my monitors. It could be out of phase because of
room reflections, but I've also tried listening on me headphones, and
very subtly the high mid/treble frequencies are more present in my
left ear than my right.

I think this statment is what you need to look at, how is the room your
monitoring in like? An unpreped room can do all kinds of stuff to sound.

"Matt" wrote in message
om

Hey guys. I'm writing with a bit of a concern about my hearing of
sound coming from my monitors. It could be out of phase because of
room reflections, but I've also tried listening on me headphones, and
very subtly the high mid/treble frequencies are more present in my
left ear than my right. Is this just temporary hearing loss or,
coincidently, are my headphones and monitors slightly off?

How about you disconnect the speakers, swap them, and what do you hear?

Letsee, you take the headphones off, rotate 180 degrees about your head,
reverse the channels being played and you hear what?

"Terry" wrote in message
news:E0mLc.75079$ek5.37849@pd7tw2no

My hearing chart shows a huge dip around the 3k range. No single
event caused it, just years of being around noise. The doc says this
is only caused by 'industrial' sounds. There's nothing that can be
done to restore it. And weakened ears are more prone to damage from
sudden and loud sound. Just be thankful you don't have a permanent
ring (yet).

The thing is that even if you have symmetrical or asymmetrical hearing loss,
in many cases your brain adapts.

The most important questions in critical listening in audio production
relate whether there is a difference between two sonic alternatives, and how
a recorded sound matches up with a natural sound. Neither of those
comparisons necessarily presume that your ears have flat response or
symmetrical response.

The price you pay for hearing loss in a comparison test, is loss of ability
to hear small differences or hear time reliably. But, that takes a pretty
profound hearing loss. Trouble is, there are lots of people with pretty
profound hearing losses.

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Matt" wrote in message
om

Hey guys. I'm writing with a bit of a concern about my hearing of
sound coming from my monitors. It could be out of phase because of
room reflections, but I've also tried listening on me headphones, and
very subtly the high mid/treble frequencies are more present in my
left ear than my right. Is this just temporary hearing loss or,
coincidently, are my headphones and monitors slightly off?

How about you disconnect the speakers, swap them, and what do you hear?

Letsee, you take the headphones off, rotate 180 degrees about your head,
reverse the channels being played and you hear what?




get your hearing checked, then you will know your weakness
I have mine checked at least at each year
I also feel the the numbers don't tell the whole story
beacuse I have pretty steep roll off at 8 K in one ear and a much soft
roll off but starting at 6 k in the other I can still hear things the
tests indicate I should not be able to
listening skills play a big part in this, being able to focus on what is
actually going on
but I have no training or advanced education in audiology so I can not
really explain why I can hear things the test indicate should not me
audible to me
G

In article writes:

but I've also tried listening on me headphones, and
very subtly the high mid/treble frequencies are more present in my
left ear than my right.

Put your earphones on backwards and see if the loss moves to the other
ear.

Get your hearing checked if you're in doubt and are worried about it.
There might be something wrong that can be fixed, or maybe not, but it
doesn't cost very much to find out.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Matt wrote:
Hey guys. I'm writing with a bit of a concern about my hearing of
sound coming from my monitors. It could be out of phase because of
room reflections, but I've also tried listening on me headphones, and
very subtly the high mid/treble frequencies are more present in my
left ear than my right. Is this just temporary hearing loss or,
coincidently, are my headphones and monitors slightly off? (These are
nowhere near pro-headphones and the monitors are really old, so its
not at all an impossibility). How long/what volume does it take to
cause temporary/permanent frequency-specific hearing loss?
Thanks.--MAtt

That sort of thing happens a lot from room reflections. It's also very
common to have high frequency loss in the left ear but not the right ear,
from driving around with the window open a lot.

Get your hearing tested by someplace that can do a full spectrum test.
AND, get your monitors checked out. If you have a window on a side wall
or something else reflective, it can really wreck imaging.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:06:12 GMT, "**bg**"
wrote:


There seem to be a lot of variables here.

For three nights a week for four years, I was exposed to horrendously loud,
up-close guitars from two Vox Super Beatles back in the 60s.

Me thinks compared to some todays levels, that has still been
"moderate-to-loud". Even distorsion has been keener.

We practised in a 12' by 12' room, with a drummer.

The bassist played thru and Ampeg amp with four Lancing 16" 420s in two
Ampeg cabinets...

Followed by lotsa very loud headphone work over ensuing decades.

Hmm... now this hasn't been nice. The brain adapts and asks for louder
still, that's a culprit.
Had a minor ear ache for years, went through a period of Tennitis for a
decade until I had a some molars pulled.
No more tinnitus? --But this is good!
Ongoing hearing tests have always shown my hearing to be exceptional, still
is.

You should pop into a stereo store and check out yer fave CD on some quality
headphones.

And of course, as suggested elsewhere herein, go for regular hearing tests.
Ask for a printout, keep them on file.

Wax build-up is something to check out also, it can occur in one ear to a
greater degree than the other.

Also, problems with clogged Eustachian tubes can be directly
responsible for temporary hearing loss. I had such a problem for
years. Recently, I have been attending to a evening of a "Kid's
Festival" on at a local hotel's open dancing patio where children
would perform various and sometimes quite OK modern tunes. I was
standing near to the mixing console, some 20 meters away of RCF
loudspeaker cabinets. I asked the friend engineer to lower the darn
levels a bit -- there were all the kids near the loudspeakers, age
some 3 to 14 years and the sound level hasn't been set to their
hearing for sure. He said "but they would ask for more". OK, me said.
Given the frequency of kid's voices at that 90 dB+ levels, the poor
children must have brought their ears on a chain in their pockets.

And yes, the day after, I had hearing problems and I have been angry
at myself for letting me exposed to that attacks. I visited a doctor
who said, that my hearing hasn't been impaired permanently, but due to
lack of pressure compensation, the eardrums responded by kind of
cramps; until the pressure can be compensated, I was to avoid extreme
loud places. It took some time for the hearing to recuperate and I am
now visiting a inhalation cure at local health center and the things
get better. As soon as I finish my cure, I'll visit the hearing
specialist and I expect the audiogram to be within normals for my age.


-bg-
www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

Just be thankful you don't have a permanent ring (yet).

What if I do have a ring? I know, don't answer it.

Seriously, I do have a high pitch ring in both ears. Seems to be more
prevalent in the left ear. Usually, it's not up where it bothers me all the
time. If I think about it is when I can hear it. Is this something I need to
get checked out?


--Wayne

-"sounded good to me"-

Wayne wrote:
Just be thankful you don't have a permanent ring (yet).

What if I do have a ring? I know, don't answer it.

Seriously, I do have a high pitch ring in both ears. Seems to be more
prevalent in the left ear. Usually, it's not up where it bothers me all the
time. If I think about it is when I can hear it. Is this something I need to
get checked out?

Yes, because it's entirely possible that there is something you can do about
it.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Matt" wrote in message
om...
Hey guys. I'm writing with a bit of a concern about my hearing of
sound coming from my monitors. It could be out of phase because of
room reflections, but I've also tried listening on me headphones, and
very subtly the high mid/treble frequencies are more present in my
left ear than my right. Is this just temporary hearing loss or,
coincidently, are my headphones and monitors slightly off? (These are
nowhere near pro-headphones and the monitors are really old, so its
not at all an impossibility). How long/what volume does it take to
cause temporary/permanent frequency-specific hearing loss?
Thanks.--MAtt



While we're on the subject of medical advice from audio practitioners,
I've been getting this recurring, chronic pain in my elbow. It might be
from repetitive tasks, but I change rigs frequently so it might not.
Then again, both rigs are set up similarly, so I guess it's possible.

The point of this tongue-in-cheek reply is to illustrate the likelihood
of getting a useful answer from *US* about an subject like this. Go to
your doctor and ask for a referral to an ear specialist. (S)he will be
much better equipped to tell you what's going on and to suggest
reasonable remedies.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

"Edi Zubovic" edi.zubovic[rem wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:06:12 GMT, "**bg**"
wrote:


There seem to be a lot of variables here.

For three nights a week for four years, I was exposed to horrendously
loud,
up-close guitars from two Vox Super Beatles back in the 60s.

Me thinks compared to some todays levels, that has still been
"moderate-to-loud". Even distorsion has been keener.

We practised in a 12' by 12' room, with a drummer.

The bassist played thru and Ampeg amp with four Lancing 16" 420s in two
Ampeg cabinets...

Followed by lotsa very loud headphone work over ensuing decades.

Hmm... now this hasn't been nice. The brain adapts and asks for louder
still, that's a culprit.
Had a minor ear ache for years, went through a period of Tennitis for a
decade until I had a some molars pulled.
No more tinnitus? --But this is good!
Ongoing hearing tests have always shown my hearing to be exceptional,
still
is.

You should pop into a stereo store and check out yer fave CD on some
quality
headphones.

And of course, as suggested elsewhere herein, go for regular hearing
tests.
Ask for a printout, keep them on file.

Wax build-up is something to check out also, it can occur in one ear to a
greater degree than the other.

Also, problems with clogged Eustachian tubes can be directly
responsible for temporary hearing loss. I had such a problem for
years. Recently, I have been attending to a evening of a "Kid's
Festival" on at a local hotel's open dancing patio where children
would perform various and sometimes quite OK modern tunes. I was
standing near to the mixing console, some 20 meters away of RCF
loudspeaker cabinets. I asked the friend engineer to lower the darn
levels a bit -- there were all the kids near the loudspeakers, age
some 3 to 14 years and the sound level hasn't been set to their
hearing for sure. He said "but they would ask for more". OK, me said.
Given the frequency of kid's voices at that 90 dB+ levels, the poor
children must have brought their ears on a chain in their pockets.

And yes, the day after, I had hearing problems and I have been angry
at myself for letting me exposed to that attacks. I visited a doctor
who said, that my hearing hasn't been impaired permanently, but due to
lack of pressure compensation, the eardrums responded by kind of
cramps; until the pressure can be compensated, I was to avoid extreme
loud places. It took some time for the hearing to recuperate and I am
now visiting a inhalation cure at local health center and the things
get better. As soon as I finish my cure, I'll visit the hearing
specialist and I expect the audiogram to be within normals for my age.

_________________

Hey E,

We should point out that high volumes at some frequencies could be more
damaging than others, specifically I suspect 2k to 5k being most dangerous,
highs generally being more damaging than lows.

I do find a strong reaction to super-high volumes at about 3500 Hz. Feels
like something is resonating in the right ear at that frequency.

The molar I had pulled was on that side...

POEIOT

-bg-
--
www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

I have a small suggestion here. I've found that nearly every performance I've
heard that used a PA system was too loud.

For my own protection I always carry a set of Etymotic Musician's Ear Plugs
when I attend such performances. The ER-9s are used at places with moderately
loud systems; ER-15s for most club dates and ER-25s for all rock concerts and
car audio events.

These plugs have balanced attenuation and mostly avoid problems with Foamies or
solid rubber plugs such as loss of intelligibility and the occlusal effect. Its
very similar to just turning down the volume.

They aren't cheap, it'll cost $100-120 for a set with custom ear molds and
you'll have to see an audiologist. Etymotic also sells a set (ER-20) with
tri-flange inserts for $20 that gives 12 dB of attenuation that also work quite
well.

"George" wrote in message


get your hearing checked, then you will know your weakness

Well George, at the end of the post, you contradict this.

You say:

"...I can not really explain why I can hear things the test indicate should
not me audible to me."

and

"I also feel the the numbers don't tell the whole story beacuse I have
pretty steep roll off at 8 K in one ear and a much soft
roll off but starting at 6 k in the other I can still hear things the
tests indicate I should not be able to"

The problem is that both these statements are, unnh poorly informed. I
suspect that you really mean to say:

I really don't understand how to interpret the test results.

and:

Nobody is interpreting the tests to me in a way that would be meaningful to
me.


I submit to you that if you don't know how to interpret the test results,
and you don't get someone else to interpret them to you in a way that is
meaningful to you, then you're pretty much spinning your wheels, wasting
your time and money, etc.

I have mine checked at least at each year

But, you've just basically said that the results are pretty much meaningless
to you.

I also feel the the numbers don't tell the whole story
beacuse I have pretty steep roll off at 8 K in one ear and a much soft
roll off but starting at 6 k in the other I can still hear things the
tests indicate I should not be able to

My first question would be whether you have your ears tested in a way that
is relevant to how you make the most critical uses of them?

That's true maybe less than half the time, depending on what you do. On a
good day hearing tests are trying to discern something relevant about how
your ears work for listening to normal conversation. But, normal
conversation and critical listening for audio technical purposes are usually
two different things that make two different sets of demands on your ears.

Let me illustrate the problem as follows. How much bass and treble do you
need hear to listen to a converstation as opposed to setting up a
perfectionsist's audio system?

People can check the first part of the comparison out by taking a
wide-range recording of a conversation or a person speaking, and chopping
off bass and treble until the intelligibility starts to slide. If you do
this with different recordings, you find that the numbers change depending
on who the person speaking is. No surprize, you will probably need more bass
to adequately hear information spoken by a guy with a bass voice, than a
girl with a high voice. The high end is harder to predict. But, no matter,
you're going to find that bass below 80 Hz and treble above several KHz is
optional, if intelligiilibty is the goal.

Obviously, the second part of the comparison involving the perfectionist's
audio system, is going to require a lot more wide range frequency response
than human speech.

Frequency response isn't the whole story, dynamics also relate. Human speech
in a real-world conversation usually doesn't usually involve really loud
sounds. Admittedly someone screaming at 1 meter gets up into the 120+ dB
range, but that's not normal speech. Normal speech is more like 60 or 70 dB
so dB. So most audiologist's tests are done at lower SPLs than are involved
in a lot of listening that we do for technical purposes. The good news is
that the useful response range of the ear broadens considerably as the
levels go up.

listening skills play a big part in this, being able to focus on what
is actually going on

Agreed, but that's not all of it.

but I have no training or advanced education in audiology so I can not
really explain why I can hear things the test indicate should not me
audible to me

Hope this helps.

I really don't understand how to interpret the test results.

the results are a simple graph of my responses, but I guess you right I
can not determine what the results say yet I know I have roll off at 8K
and 6K the one at 8 is steeper than the one at 6
but I could never have figured that out
the thing your missing is that freq response tests do not truly tell
what one can hear and what one cannot hear
the is no test that does that beacuse the ears are not always able to
perform the same, nor does a sine wave tone represt a complex musical
signal

but you glossed over these facts in your childish attempt to insult me
**** you, arny, and I mean that in only the most vicious , mean spirited
way
George

"George" wrote in message


I really don't understand how to interpret the test results.

the results are a simple graph of my responses, but I guess you right
I can not determine what the results say yet I know I have roll off
at 8K and 6K the one at 8 is steeper than the one at 6
but I could never have figured that out

the thing your missing is that freq response tests do not truly tell
what one can hear and what one cannot hear

I didn't miss it, I covered it, but it slid by you, George. If you hadn't
told me to FO just below, I'd explain it more fully.

the is no test that does that because the ears are not always able to
perform the same, nor does a sine wave tone represt a complex musical
signal

That is about what you don't personally don't know George, not about what is
not knowable.

but you glossed over these facts in your childish attempt to insult me

Actually George, you can't point to even one insult in what I just wrote.

**** you, arny, and I mean that in only the most vicious , mean spirited
way

Yes, mean-spirited is all what you are about, George. Thanks for sharing
what your true spirit is.

BTW, it helps explain why you love OT posting so much.

Hey guys. I'm writing with a bit of a concern about my hearing of
sound coming from my monitors. It could be out of phase because of
room reflections, but I've also tried listening on me headphones, and
very subtly the high mid/treble frequencies are more present in my
left ear than my right. Is this just temporary hearing loss or,
coincidently, are my headphones and monitors slightly off? (These are
nowhere near pro-headphones and the monitors are really old, so its
not at all an impossibility). How long/what volume does it take to
cause temporary/permanent frequency-specific hearing loss?
Thanks.--MAtt



While we're on the subject of medical advice from audio practitioners,
I've been getting this recurring, chronic pain in my elbow. It might be
from repetitive tasks, but I change rigs frequently so it might not.
Then again, both rigs are set up similarly, so I guess it's possible.


Some WD-40 will fix that...;-)

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
The price you pay for hearing loss in a comparison test, is loss of
ability
to hear small differences or hear time reliably.

"hear time" ?

But, that takes a pretty profound hearing loss.

Actually ANY hearing loss will decrease your dynamic range to some extent,
and usually in a non linear fashion wrt frequency.

A "profound loss" is considered about 50 - 60dB from memory, **FAR** more
than it takes to screw up your dynamics.
In most cases, by the time someone has a profound loss, they have almost no
ability to hear high frequencies at any level. And very limited dynamic
range at lower frequencies.

TonyP.

"George" wrote in message

the results are a simple graph of my responses, but I guess you right
I can not determine what the results say yet I know I have roll off
at 8K and 6K the one at 8 is steeper than the one at 6
but I could never have figured that out

I'm still wondering what you actually do with the information though if you
don't need hearing aids yet? And what purpose there is to getting it done
every year?

the thing your missing is that freq response tests do not truly tell
what one can hear and what one cannot hear

The standard audiolgy tests are not desiged to do so. Other tests can be
peformed if necessary.
The usual audiology tests only go to 8 kHz, they tell you nothing about how
much higher you can actually hear or what level is necessary to do so.

TonyP.

"TonyP" wrote in message
u
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

The price you pay for hearing loss in a comparison test, is loss of
ability to hear small differences or hear time reliably.

"hear time" ?

"hear them"

Sorry for the typo.

But, that takes a pretty profound hearing loss.

Actually ANY hearing loss will decrease your dynamic range to some
extent, and usually in a non linear fashion wrt frequency.

I was trying to say that. What's unclear about:

"The price you pay for hearing loss in a comparison test, is loss of
ability to hear small differences or hear them reliably."?

A "profound loss" is considered about 50 - 60dB from memory, **FAR**
more than it takes to screw up your dynamics.

Notice that I didn't simply say "profound loss", I said "pretty profound
loss". IOW less than a complete profound loss. Here's what I said, and that
that you somehow decided to butcher:

"The price you pay for hearing loss in a comparison test, is loss of ability
to hear small differences or hear them reliably. But, that takes a pretty
profound hearing loss. Trouble is, there are lots of people with pretty
profound hearing losses"

I agree with you, the OP's situation did show a loss of high frequency
dynamic range. He's probably able to hear high frequencies at high levels
where he probably listens critically, but not hear them at the lower levels
used in hearing tests.

Yes, that could properly be called loss of dynamic range at high
frequencies. It means that he's probably not going to be able to delicate
high frequency reverb tails, for example. But he can still hear that
something is not right at 10 or maybe 12 KHz if he listens at a higher
level.

In most cases, by the time someone has a profound loss, they have
almost no ability to hear high frequencies at any level. And very
limited dynamic range at lower frequencies.

That's one reason why I used the comparative form - "pretty profound loss",
not the simple form: "profound looss" Sorry for any confusion that might
have caused.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Notice that I didn't simply say "profound loss", I said "pretty profound
loss". IOW less than a complete profound loss. Here's what I said, and
that
that you somehow decided to butcher:

No butchering IMO.

"The price you pay for hearing loss in a comparison test, is loss of
ability
to hear small differences or hear them reliably. But, that takes a pretty
profound hearing loss. Trouble is, there are lots of people with pretty
profound hearing losses"

And I was making the point that even 20 dB loss, is not "pretty profound"
but will still screw up your dynamic range and in most cases in a non linear
fashion wrt frequency. It goes unnoticed though if it happens over time. And
if a hearing test shows that to be the case, what are you going to do about
it?
It's simply a fact of life that we all hear things differently.


I agree with you, the OP's situation did show a loss of high frequency
dynamic range. He's probably able to hear high frequencies at high levels
where he probably listens critically, but not hear them at the lower
levels
used in hearing tests.

Yes, that could properly be called loss of dynamic range at high
frequencies. It means that he's probably not going to be able to delicate
high frequency reverb tails, for example. But he can still hear that
something is not right at 10 or maybe 12 KHz if he listens at a higher
level.

Right.

In most cases, by the time someone has a profound loss, they have
almost no ability to hear high frequencies at any level. And very
limited dynamic range at lower frequencies.

That's one reason why I used the comparative form - "pretty profound
loss",
not the simple form: "profound looss" Sorry for any confusion that might
have caused.

Yes, but how profound is "pretty profound" then? "Severe" or just
"Moderate".
The statement "Trouble is, there are lots of people with pretty profound
hearing losses" becomes rather meaningless.

TonyP.

"TonyP" wrote in message
u

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Notice that I didn't simply say "profound loss", I said "pretty
profound loss". IOW less than a complete profound loss. Here's what
I said, and
that
that you somehow decided to butcher:

No butchering IMO.

That's your opinion!

"The price you pay for hearing loss in a comparison test, is loss of
ability to hear small differences or hear them reliably. But, that
takes a pretty profound hearing loss. Trouble is, there are lots of
people with pretty profound hearing losses"

And I was making the point that even 20 dB loss, is not "pretty
profound"

I don't believe in haggling over hedge words.

but will still screw up your dynamic range and in most
cases in a non linear fashion wrt frequency.

About that I wholeheartedly agree.

It goes unnoticed though if it happens over time.

Agreed, and also true of a wide range of perceptual changes. One reason why
reliable listening tests are so important.

IME most hearing tests are pretty crude. Many of them can be falsified,
positive or negative, by any listener with the urge to do so.

And if a hearing test shows that to be the
case, what are you going to do about it?

A particularly good question for people who work with music and critical
adjustments and choices in audio.

It's simply a fact of life that we all hear things differently.

Right, and its also a fact of life that hearing usually degrades as people
get older. IME the degradation might be in force at the age of 20. After
that, its all downhill.


I agree with you, the OP's situation did show a loss of high
frequency dynamic range. He's probably able to hear high frequencies
at high levels where he probably listens critically, but not hear
them at the lower levels used in hearing tests.

Yes, that could properly be called loss of dynamic range at high
frequencies. It means that he's probably not going to be able to
delicate high frequency reverb tails, for example. But he can still
hear that something is not right at 10 or maybe 12 KHz if he listens
at a higher level.

Right.

In most cases, by the time someone has a profound loss, they have
almost no ability to hear high frequencies at any level. And very
limited dynamic range at lower frequencies.

That's one reason why I used the comparative form - "pretty profound
loss",
not the simple form: "profound looss" Sorry for any confusion that
might have caused.

Yes, but how profound is "pretty profound" then? "Severe" or just
"Moderate".

From the context pick...

....moderate.

The statement "Trouble is, there are lots of people with pretty
profound hearing losses" becomes rather meaningless.

That's life with hedge words. ;-) They sap meaning.

However, if we go for the unhedged form, the statement "Trouble is, there
are lots of people with
profound hearing losses" is also true, More than a few of them work in
audio.