Mike Rivers wrote:

Should I feel guilty for my lack of Mac knowledge or sympathy, or
should I just say "OK, here's what I can do for you. Take it from
there or find another solution."?

Back in ancient time when I had an Amiga(s) it didn't take me long to
grasp the wisdom of having a bridgeboard in the "large un'". IMO the
reply to the answer "bBut I only have a Mac" is: "And?".

Usable PC's litterally litter the streets here in Copenhagen, I saw an
IBM 330 on its side in the rain yesterday - it was not possible for me
to carry it with me, but I probably should have anyway, it may have been
salvageable if cleaned and properly dried.

I'm really Mike Rivers )


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

Mike Rivers wrote:

Should I feel guilty for my lack of Mac knowledge or sympathy, or
should I just say "OK, here's what I can do for you. Take it from
there or find another solution."?

Back in ancient time when I had an Amiga(s) it didn't take me long to
grasp the wisdom of having a bridgeboard in the "large un'". IMO the
reply to the answer "bBut I only have a Mac" is: "And?".

Usable PC's litterally litter the streets here in Copenhagen, I saw an
IBM 330 on its side in the rain yesterday - it was not possible for me
to carry it with me, but I probably should have anyway, it may have been
salvageable if cleaned and properly dried.

I'm really Mike Rivers )


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

Bitchy editorial - comment at my own risk:


Do Mac users live on an island? Do they have no friends or neighbors?
Are they anti-social, or just lazy?

On two occasions recently, I've offered help to users of Mackie hard
disk recorders in the form of a self-extracting file that will create
a floppy disk that they can boot in their recorder and possibly solve
their problem. The thing is that it's an EXE file and it takes a
Windows PC to extract it, and the replies have been along the lines of
"I only have a Mac."

I figure that these days anyone who wants to help himself can find a
PC to use for three minutes without going too far out of the way.
Chances are a neighbor has one, or there's one at a library, or they
can go to a computer store, pretend to be shopping for a computer, and
do the deed there. But no, they own a Mac and that's the end of the
story.

Now I suppose I could be accused of being PC-centric and not seeking
out a way to make a second version of what I want to send them that
will self-extract on a Mac, but hey, I'm the one who's making the
offer to help here. I don't have a Mac and my neighbor who has one
doesn't know a thing about self extracting files or utilities. I'd
like to be able to offer this but geez, I wasn't even successful in
finding someone who could give me any better info than I'd already
found on creating a self-extracting file for a PC.

Should I feel guilty for my lack of Mac knowledge or sympathy, or
should I just say "OK, here's what I can do for you. Take it from
there or find another solution."?

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1089466491k@trad...

Should I feel guilty for my lack of Mac knowledge or sympathy, or
should I just say "OK, here's what I can do for you. Take it from
there or find another solution."?

The people I know who use Macs for audio/video production definitely seem to
take an almost snobbish/cultish attitude. Hey, since their Mac universe is
the end-all & be-all, why should they be soliciting help from the user of a
mere PC?

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1089466491k@trad...

Should I feel guilty for my lack of Mac knowledge or sympathy, or
should I just say "OK, here's what I can do for you. Take it from
there or find another solution."?

The people I know who use Macs for audio/video production definitely seem to
take an almost snobbish/cultish attitude. Hey, since their Mac universe is
the end-all & be-all, why should they be soliciting help from the user of a
mere PC?

Do Mac users live on an island? Do they have no friends or neighbors?
Are they anti-social, or just lazy?

Think of it more like being in the middle of Montreal & asking "I'm in Canada.
Doesn't anybody here speak English?"


Scott Fraser

Do Mac users live on an island? Do they have no friends or neighbors?
Are they anti-social, or just lazy?

Think of it more like being in the middle of Montreal & asking "I'm in Canada.
Doesn't anybody here speak English?"


Scott Fraser

Mike Rivers wrote:

snip

Should I feel guilty for my lack of Mac knowledge or sympathy, or
should I just say "OK, here's what I can do for you. Take it from
there or find another solution."?

I recommend the latter.

--
================================================== ======================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
| - The Who, Bargain

Mike Rivers wrote:

snip

Should I feel guilty for my lack of Mac knowledge or sympathy, or
should I just say "OK, here's what I can do for you. Take it from
there or find another solution."?

I recommend the latter.

--
================================================== ======================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
| - The Who, Bargain

In this place, Mike Rivers was recorded saying ...
Should I feel guilty for my lack of Mac knowledge or sympathy, or
should I just say "OK, here's what I can do for you. Take it from
there or find another solution."?

Guilty? What on earth for?

If my car breaks down in the middle of the desert and you kindly offer
to give me a lift to the nearest town, should I turn my nose up because
you're "only" driving a Lexus? ;^)

--

George
Newcastle, England

Problems worthy of attack
Prove their worth, by hitting back [Piet Hein]

In this place, Mike Rivers was recorded saying ...
Should I feel guilty for my lack of Mac knowledge or sympathy, or
should I just say "OK, here's what I can do for you. Take it from
there or find another solution."?

Guilty? What on earth for?

If my car breaks down in the middle of the desert and you kindly offer
to give me a lift to the nearest town, should I turn my nose up because
you're "only" driving a Lexus? ;^)

--

George
Newcastle, England

Problems worthy of attack
Prove their worth, by hitting back [Piet Hein]

Mike Rivers wrote:

Bitchy editorial - comment at my own risk:

Do Mac users live on an island? Do they have no friends or neighbors?
Are they anti-social, or just lazy?

Yes, that's it. If you ever show up here again I'll have to offer more
whiskey.

On two occasions recently, I've offered help to users of Mackie hard
disk recorders in the form of a self-extracting file that will create
a floppy disk that they can boot in their recorder and possibly solve
their problem. The thing is that it's an EXE file and it takes a
Windows PC to extract it, and the replies have been along the lines of
"I only have a Mac."

An .exe file won't run directly under Mac OS's, so I think they'd need
Virtual PC or something like it to use the file even after extraction.

I figure that these days anyone who wants to help himself can find a
PC to use for three minutes without going too far out of the way.
Chances are a neighbor has one, or there's one at a library, or they
can go to a computer store, pretend to be shopping for a computer, and
do the deed there. But no, they own a Mac and that's the end of the
story.

Lots of Macsters know almost nothing about computers in general (myself
included) or about their own Macs (which I've been able to support
without paying anybody for over ten years now). Yet in their own way
they get their work done.

Now I suppose I could be accused of being PC-centric and not seeking
out a way to make a second version of what I want to send them that
will self-extract on a Mac, but hey, I'm the one who's making the
offer to help here. I don't have a Mac and my neighbor who has one
doesn't know a thing about self extracting files or utilities. I'd
like to be able to offer this but geez, I wasn't even successful in
finding someone who could give me any better info than I'd already
found on creating a self-extracting file for a PC.

Well, son, had you a Mac, you'd just tell Stuffit to make a .sea archive
and be done with it. g

Should I feel guilty for my lack of Mac knowledge or sympathy, or
should I just say "OK, here's what I can do for you. Take it from
there or find another solution."?

The latter. You could also wonder that a company as big as Mackie can't
also provide a Mac-compatible file for the purpose. I'll have to get
with friends to update my TC G-Major's firmware, because TC won't bother
to figure out what RME, for instance, has figured out and provides, even
though there is definitely a Mac problem (specific to certain models and
OS versions) with some MIDI functions. TC says "Can't do it" while RME
says "Here's what is the problem and here is our functional workaround".

But in the end, nobody can help those who will not make at least some
effort to help themselves. And at the other end, the type of user who is
well enough informed to deal with that kind of stuff is also aware
enough to consider purchasing from a different company, just to try to
avoid that kind of crap.

j

My sympathies; you must have some pretty lame friends.

/j

--
ha

Mike Rivers wrote:

Bitchy editorial - comment at my own risk:

Do Mac users live on an island? Do they have no friends or neighbors?
Are they anti-social, or just lazy?

Yes, that's it. If you ever show up here again I'll have to offer more
whiskey.

On two occasions recently, I've offered help to users of Mackie hard
disk recorders in the form of a self-extracting file that will create
a floppy disk that they can boot in their recorder and possibly solve
their problem. The thing is that it's an EXE file and it takes a
Windows PC to extract it, and the replies have been along the lines of
"I only have a Mac."

An .exe file won't run directly under Mac OS's, so I think they'd need
Virtual PC or something like it to use the file even after extraction.

I figure that these days anyone who wants to help himself can find a
PC to use for three minutes without going too far out of the way.
Chances are a neighbor has one, or there's one at a library, or they
can go to a computer store, pretend to be shopping for a computer, and
do the deed there. But no, they own a Mac and that's the end of the
story.

Lots of Macsters know almost nothing about computers in general (myself
included) or about their own Macs (which I've been able to support
without paying anybody for over ten years now). Yet in their own way
they get their work done.

Now I suppose I could be accused of being PC-centric and not seeking
out a way to make a second version of what I want to send them that
will self-extract on a Mac, but hey, I'm the one who's making the
offer to help here. I don't have a Mac and my neighbor who has one
doesn't know a thing about self extracting files or utilities. I'd
like to be able to offer this but geez, I wasn't even successful in
finding someone who could give me any better info than I'd already
found on creating a self-extracting file for a PC.

Well, son, had you a Mac, you'd just tell Stuffit to make a .sea archive
and be done with it. g

Should I feel guilty for my lack of Mac knowledge or sympathy, or
should I just say "OK, here's what I can do for you. Take it from
there or find another solution."?

The latter. You could also wonder that a company as big as Mackie can't
also provide a Mac-compatible file for the purpose. I'll have to get
with friends to update my TC G-Major's firmware, because TC won't bother
to figure out what RME, for instance, has figured out and provides, even
though there is definitely a Mac problem (specific to certain models and
OS versions) with some MIDI functions. TC says "Can't do it" while RME
says "Here's what is the problem and here is our functional workaround".

But in the end, nobody can help those who will not make at least some
effort to help themselves. And at the other end, the type of user who is
well enough informed to deal with that kind of stuff is also aware
enough to consider purchasing from a different company, just to try to
avoid that kind of crap.

j

My sympathies; you must have some pretty lame friends.

/j

--
ha

Doc wrote:

The people I know who use Macs for audio/video production definitely seem to
take an almost snobbish/cultish attitude. Hey, since their Mac universe is
the end-all & be-all, why should they be soliciting help from the user of a
mere PC?

My, but you do sound snobbish and cultish there, Doc.

--
ha

Doc wrote:

The people I know who use Macs for audio/video production definitely seem to
take an almost snobbish/cultish attitude. Hey, since their Mac universe is
the end-all & be-all, why should they be soliciting help from the user of a
mere PC?

My, but you do sound snobbish and cultish there, Doc.

--
ha

Mike Rivers wrote:
Now I suppose I could be accused of being PC-centric and not seeking
out a way to make a second version of what I want to send them that
will self-extract on a Mac, but hey, I'm the one who's making the
offer to help here. I don't have a Mac and my neighbor who has one
doesn't know a thing about self extracting files or utilities. I'd
like to be able to offer this but geez, I wasn't even successful in
finding someone who could give me any better info than I'd already
found on creating a self-extracting file for a PC.

Should I feel guilty for my lack of Mac knowledge or sympathy, or
should I just say "OK, here's what I can do for you. Take it from
there or find another solution."?

You should just realize that there is a bit of a persecution complex
type thing going on. People who don't want to use Windows feel like
almost the entire world is trying to coerce them into using it.
Which, to a certain extent, they are. Not everybody, and not you
necessarily. But when I've told people I simply don't use Windows
for much because I don't like it and I'm more productive with other
types of systems, I've sometimes gotten a reaction that indicates
people think I'm high maintenance and picky and can't just use what
everyone else uses and be happy. When stuff like that happens is
when I start to respond emotionally. I'm not trying to be a pain,
I just really don't like Windows and find it to be not a very good
tool for what I want to do, and I do feel like sometimes people
are antagonistic about that. There really seem to be people out
there who would rather everyone use Windows because THEY'RE on
Windows and they don't like the complication of having to deal with
people who are different than them. The nail that sticks out gets
hammered down, etc.

So these are reasons that Mac people might have a knee-jerk reaction
to what they perceive as a Windows-centric action. It's a siege
mentality. (Mac people seem to have this a little more than others.
Partly I think this is because of the above but it's also because
the Mac environment selects for people who are disatisfied with
Windows, i.e. Mac people are picky because if they weren't picky,
there's a good chance they'd just use Windows.)

Anyway, going back to your situation more specifically, there is also
the idea that a person who doesn't use computers much and who mainly
uses a Mac (this is, after all, the Mac's target market), may not
really quite know how to get this .EXE file onto a PC and what to
do with it once it's there. A self-extracting thing seems easy to
a PC user, but then a self-mounting disk image seems easy to a Mac
person, and most PC people don't know what to do with a .SMI file.

So personally, what I think is the right thing to do in all cases
is to look for a solution that's not Windows-centric and yet which
is still reasonably easy and convenient. Since you're doing these
people a favor to begin with, it's certainly not required. But
it's a nice thing to do to try and be aware of things that will
work for everybody. I personally, crazy person that I am, would
distribute a disk image as simply the sequence of bytes that would
occur on the disk. Anything else, to me, seems like a strange
marriage of preferences about applications and stuff with the
actual data that you want to distribute. But then, sometimes
strange marriages can be convenient.

It's sort of like brining some food to a pot luck dinner. If you
are cooking something that calls for celery (or onions, or green
peppers, or jalapenos, etc.) as an optional ingredient, and you
know some people hate celery, then it's a nice considerate thing
to do to leave it out. But if you left it in, certainly nobody
would have a right to complain: they could just not eat it.

Stepping back a little further, in my opinion the fundamental
problem is the program that created the disk image. It should
encourage you to create a disk image in some kind of standard
format (like a raw image, which is the simplest possible format)
that everyone can use and make it easy to do that. The fact that
this doesn't happen in most cases is kind of sad because it is
the source of interoperability problems. But I realize it's
extra work for people to standardize on things and then stick
to the standards, plus capitalism doesn't always reward you for
doing what is best for everyone in the long term. (And also not
everyone places the same value on interoperability that I do...)

And then there's the side issue that packaging things as
executables when they don't need to be executables is just the
kind of thing that leads to viruses. People are so used to seeing
stuff packaged as self-extracting that they start to accept that
practice and start being willing to click on unknown .EXE files.
One other reason a Mac use might not want to do this .EXE thing
is that they would be running an somewhat-unknown .EXE file on
a borrowed computer. From their point of view, *probably* it
doesn't contain a virus, but how do they know that? And how
are they going to feel if they borrowed a friend's computer
and then gave their friend a virus in the process? (And while
I'm on sort of my own little rant here, software that creates
self-extracting images for the most part sucks, because it is
just encouraging people to have poor habits when it comes to
security.)

- Logan

Mike Rivers wrote:
Now I suppose I could be accused of being PC-centric and not seeking
out a way to make a second version of what I want to send them that
will self-extract on a Mac, but hey, I'm the one who's making the
offer to help here. I don't have a Mac and my neighbor who has one
doesn't know a thing about self extracting files or utilities. I'd
like to be able to offer this but geez, I wasn't even successful in
finding someone who could give me any better info than I'd already
found on creating a self-extracting file for a PC.

Should I feel guilty for my lack of Mac knowledge or sympathy, or
should I just say "OK, here's what I can do for you. Take it from
there or find another solution."?

You should just realize that there is a bit of a persecution complex
type thing going on. People who don't want to use Windows feel like
almost the entire world is trying to coerce them into using it.
Which, to a certain extent, they are. Not everybody, and not you
necessarily. But when I've told people I simply don't use Windows
for much because I don't like it and I'm more productive with other
types of systems, I've sometimes gotten a reaction that indicates
people think I'm high maintenance and picky and can't just use what
everyone else uses and be happy. When stuff like that happens is
when I start to respond emotionally. I'm not trying to be a pain,
I just really don't like Windows and find it to be not a very good
tool for what I want to do, and I do feel like sometimes people
are antagonistic about that. There really seem to be people out
there who would rather everyone use Windows because THEY'RE on
Windows and they don't like the complication of having to deal with
people who are different than them. The nail that sticks out gets
hammered down, etc.

So these are reasons that Mac people might have a knee-jerk reaction
to what they perceive as a Windows-centric action. It's a siege
mentality. (Mac people seem to have this a little more than others.
Partly I think this is because of the above but it's also because
the Mac environment selects for people who are disatisfied with
Windows, i.e. Mac people are picky because if they weren't picky,
there's a good chance they'd just use Windows.)

Anyway, going back to your situation more specifically, there is also
the idea that a person who doesn't use computers much and who mainly
uses a Mac (this is, after all, the Mac's target market), may not
really quite know how to get this .EXE file onto a PC and what to
do with it once it's there. A self-extracting thing seems easy to
a PC user, but then a self-mounting disk image seems easy to a Mac
person, and most PC people don't know what to do with a .SMI file.

So personally, what I think is the right thing to do in all cases
is to look for a solution that's not Windows-centric and yet which
is still reasonably easy and convenient. Since you're doing these
people a favor to begin with, it's certainly not required. But
it's a nice thing to do to try and be aware of things that will
work for everybody. I personally, crazy person that I am, would
distribute a disk image as simply the sequence of bytes that would
occur on the disk. Anything else, to me, seems like a strange
marriage of preferences about applications and stuff with the
actual data that you want to distribute. But then, sometimes
strange marriages can be convenient.

It's sort of like brining some food to a pot luck dinner. If you
are cooking something that calls for celery (or onions, or green
peppers, or jalapenos, etc.) as an optional ingredient, and you
know some people hate celery, then it's a nice considerate thing
to do to leave it out. But if you left it in, certainly nobody
would have a right to complain: they could just not eat it.

Stepping back a little further, in my opinion the fundamental
problem is the program that created the disk image. It should
encourage you to create a disk image in some kind of standard
format (like a raw image, which is the simplest possible format)
that everyone can use and make it easy to do that. The fact that
this doesn't happen in most cases is kind of sad because it is
the source of interoperability problems. But I realize it's
extra work for people to standardize on things and then stick
to the standards, plus capitalism doesn't always reward you for
doing what is best for everyone in the long term. (And also not
everyone places the same value on interoperability that I do...)

And then there's the side issue that packaging things as
executables when they don't need to be executables is just the
kind of thing that leads to viruses. People are so used to seeing
stuff packaged as self-extracting that they start to accept that
practice and start being willing to click on unknown .EXE files.
One other reason a Mac use might not want to do this .EXE thing
is that they would be running an somewhat-unknown .EXE file on
a borrowed computer. From their point of view, *probably* it
doesn't contain a virus, but how do they know that? And how
are they going to feel if they borrowed a friend's computer
and then gave their friend a virus in the process? (And while
I'm on sort of my own little rant here, software that creates
self-extracting images for the most part sucks, because it is
just encouraging people to have poor habits when it comes to
security.)

- Logan

Mike Rivers wrote:
Bitchy editorial - comment at my own risk:


Do Mac users live on an island? Do they have no friends or neighbors?
Are they anti-social, or just lazy?

On two occasions recently, I've offered help to users of Mackie hard
disk recorders in the form of a self-extracting file that will create
a floppy disk that they can boot in their recorder and possibly solve
their problem. The thing is that it's an EXE file and it takes a
Windows PC to extract it, and the replies have been along the lines of
"I only have a Mac."


For many it is an exclusive religon.

geoff

Mike Rivers wrote:
Bitchy editorial - comment at my own risk:


Do Mac users live on an island? Do they have no friends or neighbors?
Are they anti-social, or just lazy?

On two occasions recently, I've offered help to users of Mackie hard
disk recorders in the form of a self-extracting file that will create
a floppy disk that they can boot in their recorder and possibly solve
their problem. The thing is that it's an EXE file and it takes a
Windows PC to extract it, and the replies have been along the lines of
"I only have a Mac."


For many it is an exclusive religon.

geoff

In this place, Logan Shaw was recorded saying ...

You should just realize that there is a bit of a persecution complex
type thing going on. People who don't want to use Windows feel like
almost the entire world is trying to coerce them into using it.
[... HUGE snip ...]

- Logan


Wow Logan - did we just find out what that funny button on the Mac
keyboard does? Sure sounds like someone pressed *your* button!

Nobody here is attacking your choice to use a Mac. A few who have
already responded (though not me) are Mac users themselves.

Mike doesn't get paid for providing these files. He doesn't work for
Mackie any longer. He used his own time to research a problem, come up
with a fix and - out of the goodness of his heart - offer it to others.

It really is a bit rich to suggest that he should then use up a LOT more
of his time, borrowing a Mac, learning an environment he is unfamiliar
with and creating copies of *his* hard work in a format that suits you.

What did you say? Like someone bringing a pot roast to dinner?

Well, maybe if the Mac users who complain to Mike want to take him to
dinner as a thank you for his labours, you might, possibly, on a good
day, have a point.

But right now, I don't see Mike donning his best jacket and tie to eat
in the fanciest diner in town courtesy of the Mac fraternity.

Therefore, I can't, for the life of me, see why he should be made to
feel guilty.

If the Mac is so important to you, why not arrange for Mike's files to
be transferred to OS9 or OSX or whatever suits you all best and take on
the distribution duties yourself.

Now, THAT would be a helpful contribution.

Wouldn't it?


--

George
Newcastle, England

Problems worthy of attack
Prove their worth, by hitting back [Piet Hein]

In this place, Logan Shaw was recorded saying ...

You should just realize that there is a bit of a persecution complex
type thing going on. People who don't want to use Windows feel like
almost the entire world is trying to coerce them into using it.
[... HUGE snip ...]

- Logan


Wow Logan - did we just find out what that funny button on the Mac
keyboard does? Sure sounds like someone pressed *your* button!

Nobody here is attacking your choice to use a Mac. A few who have
already responded (though not me) are Mac users themselves.

Mike doesn't get paid for providing these files. He doesn't work for
Mackie any longer. He used his own time to research a problem, come up
with a fix and - out of the goodness of his heart - offer it to others.

It really is a bit rich to suggest that he should then use up a LOT more
of his time, borrowing a Mac, learning an environment he is unfamiliar
with and creating copies of *his* hard work in a format that suits you.

What did you say? Like someone bringing a pot roast to dinner?

Well, maybe if the Mac users who complain to Mike want to take him to
dinner as a thank you for his labours, you might, possibly, on a good
day, have a point.

But right now, I don't see Mike donning his best jacket and tie to eat
in the fanciest diner in town courtesy of the Mac fraternity.

Therefore, I can't, for the life of me, see why he should be made to
feel guilty.

If the Mac is so important to you, why not arrange for Mike's files to
be transferred to OS9 or OSX or whatever suits you all best and take on
the distribution duties yourself.

Now, THAT would be a helpful contribution.

Wouldn't it?


--

George
Newcastle, England

Problems worthy of attack
Prove their worth, by hitting back [Piet Hein]

Mike - a thought just reoccurred to me - sorry I got distracted and
forgot to suggest it when you asked about creating self-extracting files
a while ago.

If these files are not PC executables (or at least, they are only
binaries intended for the Mackie recorder) you might be better advised
to use one of the file compression utilities like WinRar to pack the
files into one distributable file.

This utility (there are others, current versions of WinZip, WinACE etc.
offer similar functions to the ones I'm describing) can create a self-
extracting PC executable if that's what you want at the touch of one
button.

Interestingly, it can also pack files into a compressed (or non-
compressed - your choice) archive in many other common formats including
several that Macs should be able to read straight off the disk.

I also believe that STUFFIT is widely used on Macs - there is a PC
version of this that I used once to get some files from a Mac. It
probably does a similar job in the other direction.

This might be a solution all round. If you want web sites or further
info, just shout.

Hope this helps.

Regards

--

George
Newcastle, England

Problems worthy of attack
Prove their worth, by hitting back [Piet Hein]

Mike - a thought just reoccurred to me - sorry I got distracted and
forgot to suggest it when you asked about creating self-extracting files
a while ago.

If these files are not PC executables (or at least, they are only
binaries intended for the Mackie recorder) you might be better advised
to use one of the file compression utilities like WinRar to pack the
files into one distributable file.

This utility (there are others, current versions of WinZip, WinACE etc.
offer similar functions to the ones I'm describing) can create a self-
extracting PC executable if that's what you want at the touch of one
button.

Interestingly, it can also pack files into a compressed (or non-
compressed - your choice) archive in many other common formats including
several that Macs should be able to read straight off the disk.

I also believe that STUFFIT is widely used on Macs - there is a PC
version of this that I used once to get some files from a Mac. It
probably does a similar job in the other direction.

This might be a solution all round. If you want web sites or further
info, just shout.

Hope this helps.

Regards

--

George
Newcastle, England

Problems worthy of attack
Prove their worth, by hitting back [Piet Hein]

"Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote in message
...
Mike Rivers wrote:
Bitchy editorial - comment at my own risk:


Do Mac users live on an island? Do they have no friends or neighbors?
Are they anti-social, or just lazy?

On two occasions recently, I've offered help to users of Mackie hard
disk recorders in the form of a self-extracting file that will create
a floppy disk that they can boot in their recorder and possibly solve
their problem. The thing is that it's an EXE file and it takes a
Windows PC to extract it, and the replies have been along the lines of
"I only have a Mac."


For many it is an exclusive religon.

One of the things you learn in the audio world is how to interface your
system with the rest of the world.

"Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote in message
...
Mike Rivers wrote:
Bitchy editorial - comment at my own risk:


Do Mac users live on an island? Do they have no friends or neighbors?
Are they anti-social, or just lazy?

On two occasions recently, I've offered help to users of Mackie hard
disk recorders in the form of a self-extracting file that will create
a floppy disk that they can boot in their recorder and possibly solve
their problem. The thing is that it's an EXE file and it takes a
Windows PC to extract it, and the replies have been along the lines of
"I only have a Mac."


For many it is an exclusive religon.

One of the things you learn in the audio world is how to interface your
system with the rest of the world.

In article writes:

Yes, that's it. If you ever show up here again I'll have to offer more
whiskey.

I'll be right over!

An .exe file won't run directly under Mac OS's, so I think they'd need
Virtual PC or something like it to use the file even after extraction.

The extraction is to a floppy that runs on the Mackie HDR/MDR, not the
Mac, but it's a PC EXE file that creates the floppy on a PC. I wonder
if Virtual PC would work (assuming that the Mac user even has a floppy
drive - another stumbling block)

Lots of Macsters know almost nothing about computers in general (myself
included) or about their own Macs (which I've been able to support
without paying anybody for over ten years now). Yet in their own way
they get their work done.

That's the same for many PC users, but I figure that any of them can
follow the instructions to put a blank floppy in the drive that it
fits in, put a CD in the drive that IT fits in, click on the CD in My
Computer, select the file name that's in the instructions, and go have
a cup of tea while it's doing its thing.

Well, son, had you a Mac, you'd just tell Stuffit to make a .sea archive
and be done with it. g

Actually, there's a Stuffit for the PC. I used to use it (the DOS
version, I guess there's a Windoze version by now) to make Mac
versions of certain files when I ran the Washington MIDI Users Group
BBS. However, for this application, there's one more step that I don't
know about, and that's how to make the extracted file write to a
floppy that will be bootable on an Intel computer.

The latter. You could also wonder that a company as big as Mackie can't
also provide a Mac-compatible file for the purpose.

Actually, they DO provide Mac versions of the recorder operating
system files (instructions he http://tinyurl.com/yqkgx ), but I'm
not doing this for Mackie, and what I want to offer isn't something
that they care enough about to support. It's for this book on the HDR
that I've been trying to write for quite some time. I got it nearly finished
twice, send a draft to a couple of people, and immediately started
revising it before I even got any feedback. (Content is pretty much
fixed, it's just grammar and syntax - I keep finding different ways to say
the same thing, each time thinking it's better than the last, then
changing it again)

But in the end, nobody can help those who will not make at least some
effort to help themselves.

Oh, I'm sure they'll eventually get off their duffs when the
alternative is to send the recorder back to Mackie (which they still
may have to do but maybe there's something more they can do at home).


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Yes, that's it. If you ever show up here again I'll have to offer more
whiskey.

I'll be right over!

An .exe file won't run directly under Mac OS's, so I think they'd need
Virtual PC or something like it to use the file even after extraction.

The extraction is to a floppy that runs on the Mackie HDR/MDR, not the
Mac, but it's a PC EXE file that creates the floppy on a PC. I wonder
if Virtual PC would work (assuming that the Mac user even has a floppy
drive - another stumbling block)

Lots of Macsters know almost nothing about computers in general (myself
included) or about their own Macs (which I've been able to support
without paying anybody for over ten years now). Yet in their own way
they get their work done.

That's the same for many PC users, but I figure that any of them can
follow the instructions to put a blank floppy in the drive that it
fits in, put a CD in the drive that IT fits in, click on the CD in My
Computer, select the file name that's in the instructions, and go have
a cup of tea while it's doing its thing.

Well, son, had you a Mac, you'd just tell Stuffit to make a .sea archive
and be done with it. g

Actually, there's a Stuffit for the PC. I used to use it (the DOS
version, I guess there's a Windoze version by now) to make Mac
versions of certain files when I ran the Washington MIDI Users Group
BBS. However, for this application, there's one more step that I don't
know about, and that's how to make the extracted file write to a
floppy that will be bootable on an Intel computer.

The latter. You could also wonder that a company as big as Mackie can't
also provide a Mac-compatible file for the purpose.

Actually, they DO provide Mac versions of the recorder operating
system files (instructions he http://tinyurl.com/yqkgx ), but I'm
not doing this for Mackie, and what I want to offer isn't something
that they care enough about to support. It's for this book on the HDR
that I've been trying to write for quite some time. I got it nearly finished
twice, send a draft to a couple of people, and immediately started
revising it before I even got any feedback. (Content is pretty much
fixed, it's just grammar and syntax - I keep finding different ways to say
the same thing, each time thinking it's better than the last, then
changing it again)

But in the end, nobody can help those who will not make at least some
effort to help themselves.

Oh, I'm sure they'll eventually get off their duffs when the
alternative is to send the recorder back to Mackie (which they still
may have to do but maybe there's something more they can do at home).


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

George Perfect wrote:

Interestingly, it can also pack files into a compressed (or non-
compressed - your choice) archive in many other common formats including
several that Macs should be able to read straight off the disk.

Macs will not directly run .exe files, which is what Mike said these
are; at minimum VPC or something like it would be required.

I also believe that STUFFIT is widely used on Macs - there is a PC
version of this that I used once to get some files from a Mac. It
probably does a similar job in the other direction.

It does, but for data files, not Windows executables, which even
Unstuffed don't run under Mac OS. And given the frequency of .exe virii
many Macsters are grateful for that very limitation. I have received at
least many hundreds of such little coded *******s, and nary a bead of
sweat is raised. They cannot do their nasty little work on my machines.

--
ha

George Perfect wrote:

Interestingly, it can also pack files into a compressed (or non-
compressed - your choice) archive in many other common formats including
several that Macs should be able to read straight off the disk.

Macs will not directly run .exe files, which is what Mike said these
are; at minimum VPC or something like it would be required.

I also believe that STUFFIT is widely used on Macs - there is a PC
version of this that I used once to get some files from a Mac. It
probably does a similar job in the other direction.

It does, but for data files, not Windows executables, which even
Unstuffed don't run under Mac OS. And given the frequency of .exe virii
many Macsters are grateful for that very limitation. I have received at
least many hundreds of such little coded *******s, and nary a bead of
sweat is raised. They cannot do their nasty little work on my machines.

--
ha

Romeo Rondeau wrote:

One of the things you learn in the audio world is how to interface your
system with the rest of the world.

And sometimes you even need Mike Rivers help to do it, eh? g

And you also don't get far hooking up incompatible data exchange
formats, which is what this is about. Use what you want to use and
either learn enough to buy that which plays well together, or accept the
consequences, or make the moves to force it to happen, like I'll do when
I get time to upgrade my TC G-Major's firmware.

--
ha

Romeo Rondeau wrote:

One of the things you learn in the audio world is how to interface your
system with the rest of the world.

And sometimes you even need Mike Rivers help to do it, eh? g

And you also don't get far hooking up incompatible data exchange
formats, which is what this is about. Use what you want to use and
either learn enough to buy that which plays well together, or accept the
consequences, or make the moves to force it to happen, like I'll do when
I get time to upgrade my TC G-Major's firmware.

--
ha

In article znr1089466491k@trad, Mike Rivers wrote:

Do Mac users live on an island? Do they have no friends or neighbors?
Are they anti-social, or just lazy?

On two occasions recently, I've offered help to users of Mackie hard
disk recorders in the form of a self-extracting file that will create
a floppy disk that they can boot in their recorder and possibly solve
their problem. The thing is that it's an EXE file and it takes a
Windows PC to extract it, and the replies have been along the lines of
"I only have a Mac."

That's why self-extracting files are a bad idea. Just give them a disk
image and let them use their own software to create the final disk.

PC-style self-extracting files are too operating-system specific. It's
not just a matter of Windows vs. Mac either. You'll get things that will
run under one Windows version and not another.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article znr1089466491k@trad, Mike Rivers wrote:

Do Mac users live on an island? Do they have no friends or neighbors?
Are they anti-social, or just lazy?

On two occasions recently, I've offered help to users of Mackie hard
disk recorders in the form of a self-extracting file that will create
a floppy disk that they can boot in their recorder and possibly solve
their problem. The thing is that it's an EXE file and it takes a
Windows PC to extract it, and the replies have been along the lines of
"I only have a Mac."

That's why self-extracting files are a bad idea. Just give them a disk
image and let them use their own software to create the final disk.

PC-style self-extracting files are too operating-system specific. It's
not just a matter of Windows vs. Mac either. You'll get things that will
run under one Windows version and not another.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article writes:

when I've told people I simply don't use Windows
for much because I don't like it and I'm more productive with other
types of systems, I've sometimes gotten a reaction that indicates
people think I'm high maintenance and picky and can't just use what
everyone else uses and be happy.

I don't have a problem with that. Being productive on a daily basis is
important.

I just really don't like Windows and find it to be not a very good
tool for what I want to do, and I do feel like sometimes people
are antagonistic about that.

Not me. But if there's a solution that you need which requires
Windows one time, for a few minutes, you don't have to buy a new
computer, you just have to ask someone nearer you than me for
assistance.

So these are reasons that Mac people might have a knee-jerk reaction
to what they perceive as a Windows-centric action.

Don't get me wrong. Perhaps I was exaggerating. I haven't seen any
knee-jerk reactions, just "I don't have Windows so I can't use your
solution." It's a bit like saying "I don't have a KM84 so I can't
record my guitar."

Anyway, going back to your situation more specifically, there is also
the idea that a person who doesn't use computers much and who mainly
uses a Mac (this is, after all, the Mac's target market), may not
really quite know how to get this .EXE file onto a PC and what to
do with it once it's there.

There are instructions. And chances are if he's using a friend's
computer, the friend will be watching over his shoulder (or doing the
work) and understands what "insert the CD, locate the file XXXXXX and
click on it" means. It's not like they have to write a program.

A self-extracting thing seems easy to
a PC user, but then a self-mounting disk image seems easy to a Mac
person, and most PC people don't know what to do with a .SMI file.

You're talking to one, but if that's the solution, how do I make one?
Or could I send you a floppy and have you send me back a file that a
Mac user can use to create a duplicate of that floppy? I don't have to
do it myself.

it's a nice thing to do to try and be aware of things that will
work for everybody.

I wish I knew of such a solution, but I think the best I can do is
offer two solutions (which is what Mackie does for distributing the
HDR operating system). I don't have a problem with that, but I don't
want to have spend a lot of time (learning) or money (buying a program
for someone else's Mac that I probably won't use again) to do it.

I personally, crazy person that I am, would
distribute a disk image as simply the sequence of bytes that would
occur on the disk.

Would that be easy for someone with minimal (not necessarily no)
computer knowledge to use to create an Intel-bootable floppy? You'd
need a program or utility to assemble that sequence of bytes on to the
disk, wouldn't you? I know that in the DOS world, simply copying files
doesn't always work. I'm open to solutions. Right now I'm using
WinImage and it works, and makes a file that's extremely easy for a PC
user to use to get what he really needs (the floppy disk).

Stepping back a little further, in my opinion the fundamental
problem is the program that created the disk image. It should
encourage you to create a disk image in some kind of standard
format (like a raw image, which is the simplest possible format)
that everyone can use and make it easy to do that.

I don't think this is something that's high on developers' lists. I
was looking for an alternate to WinImage that didn't cost as much to
register and I couldn't find anything else that did what it did. Who
uses floppy disks any more anyway? In fact, I was looking for an
alternative to Microsoft's format.com (in fact I asked about it here a
month or so ago) and I got pointers to Linux utilities and
instructions that would be too complicated to expect someone to use,
particularly someone who's not very computer knowledgable and is
desperate to get his recorder working agian.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

when I've told people I simply don't use Windows
for much because I don't like it and I'm more productive with other
types of systems, I've sometimes gotten a reaction that indicates
people think I'm high maintenance and picky and can't just use what
everyone else uses and be happy.

I don't have a problem with that. Being productive on a daily basis is
important.

I just really don't like Windows and find it to be not a very good
tool for what I want to do, and I do feel like sometimes people
are antagonistic about that.

Not me. But if there's a solution that you need which requires
Windows one time, for a few minutes, you don't have to buy a new
computer, you just have to ask someone nearer you than me for
assistance.

So these are reasons that Mac people might have a knee-jerk reaction
to what they perceive as a Windows-centric action.

Don't get me wrong. Perhaps I was exaggerating. I haven't seen any
knee-jerk reactions, just "I don't have Windows so I can't use your
solution." It's a bit like saying "I don't have a KM84 so I can't
record my guitar."

Anyway, going back to your situation more specifically, there is also
the idea that a person who doesn't use computers much and who mainly
uses a Mac (this is, after all, the Mac's target market), may not
really quite know how to get this .EXE file onto a PC and what to
do with it once it's there.

There are instructions. And chances are if he's using a friend's
computer, the friend will be watching over his shoulder (or doing the
work) and understands what "insert the CD, locate the file XXXXXX and
click on it" means. It's not like they have to write a program.

A self-extracting thing seems easy to
a PC user, but then a self-mounting disk image seems easy to a Mac
person, and most PC people don't know what to do with a .SMI file.

You're talking to one, but if that's the solution, how do I make one?
Or could I send you a floppy and have you send me back a file that a
Mac user can use to create a duplicate of that floppy? I don't have to
do it myself.

it's a nice thing to do to try and be aware of things that will
work for everybody.

I wish I knew of such a solution, but I think the best I can do is
offer two solutions (which is what Mackie does for distributing the
HDR operating system). I don't have a problem with that, but I don't
want to have spend a lot of time (learning) or money (buying a program
for someone else's Mac that I probably won't use again) to do it.

I personally, crazy person that I am, would
distribute a disk image as simply the sequence of bytes that would
occur on the disk.

Would that be easy for someone with minimal (not necessarily no)
computer knowledge to use to create an Intel-bootable floppy? You'd
need a program or utility to assemble that sequence of bytes on to the
disk, wouldn't you? I know that in the DOS world, simply copying files
doesn't always work. I'm open to solutions. Right now I'm using
WinImage and it works, and makes a file that's extremely easy for a PC
user to use to get what he really needs (the floppy disk).

Stepping back a little further, in my opinion the fundamental
problem is the program that created the disk image. It should
encourage you to create a disk image in some kind of standard
format (like a raw image, which is the simplest possible format)
that everyone can use and make it easy to do that.

I don't think this is something that's high on developers' lists. I
was looking for an alternate to WinImage that didn't cost as much to
register and I couldn't find anything else that did what it did. Who
uses floppy disks any more anyway? In fact, I was looking for an
alternative to Microsoft's format.com (in fact I asked about it here a
month or so ago) and I got pointers to Linux utilities and
instructions that would be too complicated to expect someone to use,
particularly someone who's not very computer knowledgable and is
desperate to get his recorder working agian.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Well, maybe if the Mac users who complain to Mike want to take him to
dinner as a thank you for his labours, you might, possibly, on a good
day, have a point.

Well, I'd be happy if they bought a copy of the book if I ever get it
finished and Mackie promises they won't sue me if I publish it. But it's
still pretty much a labor of love. I figure that I might make about $5
a copy, and sell 500 if I'm luckly.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Well, maybe if the Mac users who complain to Mike want to take him to
dinner as a thank you for his labours, you might, possibly, on a good
day, have a point.

Well, I'd be happy if they bought a copy of the book if I ever get it
finished and Mackie promises they won't sue me if I publish it. But it's
still pretty much a labor of love. I figure that I might make about $5
a copy, and sell 500 if I'm luckly.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

If these files are not PC executables (or at least, they are only
binaries intended for the Mackie recorder) you might be better advised
to use one of the file compression utilities like WinRar to pack the
files into one distributable file.

Actually, what I'm passing out is a bootable DOS with a few utilities
on it. The Mackie recorder is an Intel motherboard and except for the
fact that it doesn't have a CD drive for loading, it would probalby
run Windows. I have Win 3.1 on a stack of floppies here. Maybe I
should try running it on the Mackie just for kicks.

This utility (there are others, current versions of WinZip, WinACE etc.
offer similar functions to the ones I'm describing) can create a self-
extracting PC executable if that's what you want at the touch of one
button.

Creating a self-extracting file is no problem. Since I'm figuring on
distributing a CD, there's no need for a self-extracting archive at
all. The trick si creating the file that, when run, will extract
itself to a floppy, and make the floppy bootable. WinImage does that.
First it makes an image of the source floppy, then it creates a
self-extracting file from that image. The only hitch is that it's a
Windows file, which doesn't run on a Mac.

Mackie distributes the OS to Mac users as a BinHex (.hqx) file which
extracts to a disk image file. Then you need to use something to crate
a floppy from the image file. Maybe if I borrowed the use of a Mac and
a smart Mac user long enough to create a a Mac image of the disk, then
put THAT file on the CD, a Mac user could use it directly.

I might be making this too complicated just because I'm still thinking
in the world where those files are distributed by downloading.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

If these files are not PC executables (or at least, they are only
binaries intended for the Mackie recorder) you might be better advised
to use one of the file compression utilities like WinRar to pack the
files into one distributable file.

Actually, what I'm passing out is a bootable DOS with a few utilities
on it. The Mackie recorder is an Intel motherboard and except for the
fact that it doesn't have a CD drive for loading, it would probalby
run Windows. I have Win 3.1 on a stack of floppies here. Maybe I
should try running it on the Mackie just for kicks.

This utility (there are others, current versions of WinZip, WinACE etc.
offer similar functions to the ones I'm describing) can create a self-
extracting PC executable if that's what you want at the touch of one
button.

Creating a self-extracting file is no problem. Since I'm figuring on
distributing a CD, there's no need for a self-extracting archive at
all. The trick si creating the file that, when run, will extract
itself to a floppy, and make the floppy bootable. WinImage does that.
First it makes an image of the source floppy, then it creates a
self-extracting file from that image. The only hitch is that it's a
Windows file, which doesn't run on a Mac.

Mackie distributes the OS to Mac users as a BinHex (.hqx) file which
extracts to a disk image file. Then you need to use something to crate
a floppy from the image file. Maybe if I borrowed the use of a Mac and
a smart Mac user long enough to create a a Mac image of the disk, then
put THAT file on the CD, a Mac user could use it directly.

I might be making this too complicated just because I'm still thinking
in the world where those files are distributed by downloading.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

And sometimes you even need Mike Rivers help to do it, eh? g

He's helped me before! He's one smart dude. Travels with his own shower head.
You gotta love that about someone.

Rivers, I will be in your area (DC around Aug 2nd) for something at XM. Let's
hook up.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"