Hi all,

I am having feedback problems trying to prepare a setup for a street
performance by a string trio (2 violins and a cello). The equipment I have
in my disposal is an acoustic amp AM100 by Yorkville, Soundcraft Spirit
Notepad, and two small diaphragm cardioid condenser mics similar to KM184. I
tried the setup outside today, in my backyard, aiming the speaker towards an
open space, with the mic stand 2 meters behind, but the it still picks it
up...

Any advice?

Thanks,
/Mikhail

In article writes:

I am having feedback problems trying to prepare a setup for a street
performance by a string trio (2 violins and a cello).

Why? How big is the street? This sort of performance should not be
amplified. At least not on MY street.

The only way you'll avoid feedback is to put tiny mics directly on the
instruments. You'll need good windscreens on them, too, since you can
expect some wind outdoors.

an acoustic amp AM100 by Yorkville, Soundcraft Spirit
Notepad, and two small diaphragm cardioid condenser mics similar to KM184.

Is that amp one with a built-in speaker, like a guitar amplifier only
for acoustic instruments? And what mic do you think is "similar to
KM184?" There's nothing wrong with a KM184 (though I wouldn't use it
outdoors in a situation where the speaker is close to the microphone),
but there may be a whole lot of things wrong with a mic that's
"similar."


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I'm really Mike Rivers )
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mabey try a 57 or a 58.
"MM" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I am having feedback problems trying to prepare a setup for a street
performance by a string trio (2 violins and a cello). The equipment I have
in my disposal is an acoustic amp AM100 by Yorkville, Soundcraft Spirit
Notepad, and two small diaphragm cardioid condenser mics similar to KM184.
I
tried the setup outside today, in my backyard, aiming the speaker towards
an
open space, with the mic stand 2 meters behind, but the it still picks it
up...

Any advice?

Thanks,
/Mikhail

Why? How big is the street? This sort of performance should not be
amplified. At least not on MY street.

Well, this is for Canada Day. There will be a lot of noise and competing
performers

an acoustic amp AM100 by Yorkville, Soundcraft Spirit
Notepad, and two small diaphragm cardioid condenser mics similar to
KM184.

Is that amp one with a built-in speaker, like a guitar amplifier only
for acoustic instruments?

Yes, that's what it is...

And what mic do you think is "similar to
KM184?" There's nothing wrong with a KM184 (though I wouldn't use it
outdoors in a situation where the speaker is close to the microphone),
but there may be a whole lot of things wrong with a mic that's
"similar."

The mic is Russian made MKE-113. It was once reviewed by Studio Sound,
probably about 7 years ago...

/Mikhail

You can't.
not very much anyway
not the way you're trying.
You can have LOUD (contact pickups)
or GOOD (no real amplification at all)
but not both.

I'd go for putting the 2 mics as close amongst the players as possible and
then

A) placing the amp at least 75' away

B) just cranking reverb on the amp up full and the amp on BARELY loud enough
to give a little faux-ambience to the group...

or BETTER:

C) leave the amp anmd mics home and just let the audience gather round and
listen to the lovely acoustic sound Like God Intended

(is it ok to crosspost this to just these 2 groups?)

--
John I-22
(that's 'I' for Initial...)
Recognising what's NOT worth your time, THAT'S the key.
--

From: "MM"
Newsgroups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 23:50:11 -0400
Subject: Amplifying a string trio

Hi all,

I am having feedback problems trying to prepare a setup for a street
performance by a string trio (2 violins and a cello). The equipment I have
in my disposal is an acoustic amp AM100 by Yorkville, Soundcraft Spirit
Notepad, and two small diaphragm cardioid condenser mics similar to KM184. I
tried the setup outside today, in my backyard, aiming the speaker towards an
open space, with the mic stand 2 meters behind, but the it still picks it
up...

Any advice?

Thanks,
/Mikhail

"JoVee" wrote in message
...
A) placing the amp at least 75' away

Why 75? Have you calculated it somehow?

C) leave the amp anmd mics home and just let the audience gather round and
listen to the lovely acoustic sound Like God Intended

Well, we did it before many times, however it doesn't work very well during
big celebrations when there is a lot of noise and competing performers.
People simply pass by not even noticing that someone is playing

/Mikhail

In article , "MM" wrote:

"JoVee" wrote in message
...
A) placing the amp at least 75' away

Why 75? Have you calculated it somehow?

C) leave the amp anmd mics home and just let the audience gather round and
listen to the lovely acoustic sound Like God Intended

Well, we did it before many times, however it doesn't work very well during
big celebrations when there is a lot of noise and competing performers.
People simply pass by not even noticing that someone is playing

/Mikhail




unless this is a Concert , most of the string ensambles I have worked
with were intened to be background ambience for a party, not the focus
of attention
but a mic like a beta 57a on each instruments sweet spot should be all
that is required
George

"George" wrote in message
...

but a mic like a beta 57a on each instruments sweet spot should be all
that is required

How about Beta 98H/C (a miniature one with a clamp)? I am not sure though if
I will find a way to attach them to violins...

/Mikhail

"MM" wrote in message ...
How about Beta 98H/C (a miniature one with a clamp)? I am not sure though
if
I will find a way to attach them to violins...

They will work very well if positioned right. I've had best results mounting
them just behind the bridge aimed either at the strings or between the
strings and the body if the action is high enough.

Phildo

"JoVee" wrote in message
...
A) placing the amp at least 75' away

Why 75? Have you calculated it somehow?

yep. That's about how far I can throw a rock. I figured it's be a pretty
safe bet that you could get some real gain-before-feedback with what you
were trying to do. It's a very real answer. It would get what you want.


C) leave the amp anmd mics home and just let the audience gather round and
listen to the lovely acoustic sound Like God Intended

Well, we did it before many times, however it doesn't work very well during
big celebrations when there is a lot of noise and competing performers.

Pick your battles... Pick your venue
I wouldn't pit a lute against bagpipes either, or have a try to have an
origami demonstration on the floor of a working steel mill

People simply pass by not even noticing that someone is playing

yep...

so, why'd you leave out -B-?

Pick your battles... Pick your venue
I wouldn't pit a lute against bagpipes either, or have a try to have an
origami demonstration on the floor of a working steel mill


I did 40 dates with a band that mixed gentle figerpicked guitar against a
set of gallatian pipes
George


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In article writes:

Well, we did it before many times, however it doesn't work very well during
big celebrations when there is a lot of noise and competing performers.
People simply pass by not even noticing that someone is playing

Well, maybe you should play better, or more interesting, or wear funny
hats. Playing louder than the guy next to you not only makes for
chaos, but it isn't really a good way to get people to notice anything
other than how loud you are. Maybe you should find a different spot to
play where people are a little more attentive.

I've never been to this Canada Day, but if it's a competition for
street musicians to get noticed by playing louder, I think I'd go look
for the hot dog stand (or, considering where you're posting from, the
beer garden).

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

--
John I-22
(that's 'I' for Initial...)
Recognising what's NOT worth your time, THAT'S the key.
--

From: "George Gleason"
Organization: AT&T Worldnet
Newsgroups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:59:03 GMT
Subject: Amplifying a string trio




Pick your battles... Pick your venue
I wouldn't pit a lute against bagpipes either, or have a try to have an
origami demonstration on the floor of a working steel mill


I did 40 dates with a band that mixed gentle fingerpicked guitar against a
set of gallatian pipes
George

With a single wide-angle mic for the pair...??

Impressive... I always like workign for musicians who know how to balance
themselves...

Seriously... not so much 'how'd ya do that'
but more how did they musically WORK that?

In article ,
JoVee wrote:

--
John I-22
(that's 'I' for Initial...)
Recognising what's NOT worth your time, THAT'S the key.
--

From: "George Gleason"
Organization: AT&T Worldnet
Newsgroups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:59:03 GMT
Subject: Amplifying a string trio




Pick your battles... Pick your venue
I wouldn't pit a lute against bagpipes either, or have a try to have an
origami demonstration on the floor of a working steel mill


I did 40 dates with a band that mixed gentle fingerpicked guitar against a
set of gallatian pipes
George

With a single wide-angle mic for the pair...??

Impressive... I always like workign for musicians who know how to balance
themselves...

Seriously... not so much 'how'd ya do that'
but more how did they musically WORK that?

no we used 17 channels
there was 5 vocals djembe small electronic drums and cymbals (hit by
hand) fiddle, cittern,bass, 3 diffrent sets of pipes and a plethori of
whistles , from one annoyingly high whistle the size of a pencil to one
you could pass a eggplant through(almost:-) )

In article writes:

I did 40 dates with a band that mixed gentle figerpicked guitar against a
set of gallatian pipes

Bet they couldn't have done it without a sound system and a competent
operator.

And I'll bet it was at least as loud as the bagpipes. g (actually,
those are fairly civilized pipes, if they're the variety I'm thinking
of - not nearly as loud as highland war pipes.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article znr1088462687k@trad, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:

In article
writes:

I did 40 dates with a band that mixed gentle figerpicked guitar against a
set of gallatian pipes

Bet they couldn't have done it without a sound system and a competent
operator.

And I'll bet it was at least as loud as the bagpipes. g (actually,
those are fairly civilized pipes, if they're the variety I'm thinking
of - not nearly as loud as highland war pipes.

really a excellent band"Old Blind Dogs" the quality of the musician made
all the diffrence
try rimming you 17 channel 5 monitor mix stage plot down to 6 channels
one mix ,
( ev entertainer, provided as pa for private gig we did(I was traveling
as a band engineer , not PA provider)
George

They will work very well if positioned right. I've had best results
mounting
them just behind the bridge aimed either at the strings or between the
strings and the body if the action is high enough.

What are you clamping them to? The tail piece?

Thanks,
/Mikhail


Chick fiddler with her 30k instrument ough to be pleased.

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1088457348k@trad...

Well, maybe you should play better, or more interesting, or wear funny
hats. Playing louder than the guy next to you not only makes for
chaos, but it isn't really a good way to get people to notice anything
other than how loud you are. Maybe you should find a different spot to
play where people are a little more attentive.

I've never been to this Canada Day, but if it's a competition for
street musicians to get noticed by playing louder, I think I'd go look
for the hot dog stand (or, considering where you're posting from, the
beer garden).

First of all I myself is not playing (like if it mattered for this ng ),
it is my daughter with 2 other kids. I probably made it look very silly,
which wasn't the intention, I simply didn't want to go much into
non-technical side of this event. Of course we are trying to find a spot
where they would not have to try to overpower bagpipes, etc., and all I
really want is to give them a little bit more power, just enough to let
people hear them from some distance, so that they would have time to slow
down their pace approaching the trio. This day is a big fundraiser for the
kids, so they want to be in the downtown where there are a lot of people, so
going to quiet streets isn't really an option. Besides, on this day those
streets would really be dead quiet with no one to play for


/Mikhail

"Phildo" wrote in message
...

They will work very well if positioned right. I've had best results
mounting
them just behind the bridge aimed either at the strings or between the
strings and the body if the action is high enough.

What are you clamping them to? The tail piece?

Thanks,
/Mikhail

"MM" wrote in message ...
"Phildo" wrote in message
...

They will work very well if positioned right. I've had best results
mounting
them just behind the bridge aimed either at the strings or between the
strings and the body if the action is high enough.

What are you clamping them to? The tail piece?

It's been a while since I used them but I ended up using velcro of all
things, removing most of the clamp and sticking them on. Didn't make for
much flexibility in positioning but worked very well.

Remember you will need phantom power for them as well.

Phildo


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"MM" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I am having feedback problems trying to prepare a setup for a street
performance by a string trio (2 violins and a cello). The equipment I have
in my disposal is an acoustic amp AM100 by Yorkville, Soundcraft Spirit
Notepad, and two small diaphragm cardioid condenser mics similar to KM184.
I
tried the setup outside today, in my backyard, aiming the speaker towards
an
open space, with the mic stand 2 meters behind, but the it still picks it
up...

Any advice?

Thanks,
/Mikhail


Er...some good advice on getting the mics as close as possible to the source
of the sound, but one other thing that may have been missed....

Your post implies that you had the speaker directly behind the mic stands.
With cardioid mics, there is actually some pickup from the rear; the best
null point is actually off to the side. I suggest you have a play with
speaker placement based on this.

Cheers,

Bob

"Bob Howes"

Your post implies that you had the speaker directly behind the mic stands.
With cardioid mics, there is actually some pickup from the rear; the best
null point is actually off to the side.


** Cardioid mics in fact have a deep null at the rear, 20 dB or more,
while at 90 degrees off axis the response is about 6 dB down compared to the
on axis level.




.............. Phil

MM wrote:

Hi all,

I am having feedback problems trying to prepare a setup for
a street performance by a string trio (2 violins and a cello).

It's a "you're dead". The traffic noise will necessitate the
amplificaton and thræe is no way to do it right, i.e. to make them sound
as they should. You have only one option: small clip type mics on the
instruments. It will sound like harsh crap, but you can make them
"carry". It may be usable to add a bit of reverb to muddle the harshness
as it is caused by too much direct sound and not enough reflected sound.

See also http://www.dpamicrophones.com/page.php?PID=23 for an example
product. AKG probably has a cheaper, rentable alternative. Beware of
clip type microphones with large presence peaks, some are made like that
to ensure maximum ZibilanZe on tZv-Zound.

/Mikhail


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

See also http://www.dpamicrophones.com/page.php?PID=23 for an example
product. AKG probably has a cheaper, rentable alternative. Beware of
clip type microphones with large presence peaks, some are made like that
to ensure maximum ZibilanZe on tZv-Zound.

Thank you , Larsen. This DPA link doesn't seem to work... Could you please
give me their model number? I found some nice microphone holders for both
violin and cello on their site, but I am not sure which mic you wanted to
recommend. They have so many different ones!

/Mikhail

Thank you , Larsen. This DPA link doesn't seem to work...

Please disregard this, I have found the page. A lot of interesting stuff...

Thanks again,
/Mikhail

In article , "MM"
wrote:

See also http://www.dpamicrophones.com/page.php?PID=23 for an example
product. AKG probably has a cheaper, rentable alternative. Beware of
clip type microphones with large presence peaks, some are made like that
to ensure maximum ZibilanZe on tZv-Zound.

Thank you , Larsen. This DPA link doesn't seem to work... Could you please
give me their model number? I found some nice microphone holders for both
violin and cello on their site, but I am not sure which mic you wanted to
recommend. They have so many different ones!

/Mikhail

I need to comment on holders, a lot better than most things is a piece
of foam to fit in under the strings (behind the bridge). The foam needs
to be very "open" and cut to a size that is just right for that
instrument. (vl, vla, vlc), make a hole right thru the foam and stick
the mic thru. Why the foam?
1) The strings need to be free behind the bridge aswell
2) easier to fit
3) MOST IMPORTANT - IF someone would get caught in the mic cord there
is not a whole instrument on the ground, just a padded (!) mic.
J.
--
Joakim Wendel
Remove obvious mail JUNK block for mail reply.

My homepage : http://violinist.nu

You have only one option: small clip type mics on the
instruments. It will sound like harsh crap, but you can make them
"carry". It may be usable to add a bit of reverb to muddle the harshness
as it is caused by too much direct sound and not enough reflected sound.

As someone who does a good deal of string quartet amplifying, I can say that
the harshness can largely be dealt with via mic choice, position & heavy EQ.
Minus 6 to 9 db shelving at 6 to 8k, another wide cut around 3 to 4k of about
3db, & then there's an ugly body resonance in the region of the bridge on
violin & viola around 300Hz that should be dropped a couple db. I've also found
some lavaliers sound considerably worse than others. The Crown GLM comes to
mind as particularly nasty. And the common practice of placing a lav between
the strings & the body between the tailpiece & bridge I find quite harsh as
well. Our mic & location of choice has been the Countryman Isomax omni attached
directly to the bridge with a piece of doublesided sticky foam tape. This has
gone rather well for at least the last 1500 concerts.


Scott Fraser

(ScotFraser) wrote in message

Our mic & location of choice has been the Countryman Isomax omni attached
directly to the bridge with a piece of doublesided sticky foam tape. This has
gone rather well for at least the last 1500 concerts.


Scott Fraser

scott - i thought you guys used the neumann km150s?

scott - i thought you guys used the neumann km150s?


Yes we do, in addition to the Countrymans. I use the Neumanns for the more
"acoustic" unprocessed pieces, & the Countrymans for pieces with accompanying
recorded tracks or heavy processing. And some pieces use both in varying
amounts to bring out a specific soloistic part more. For outdoor festival gigs
I pretty much have to go with the Countrymans only, since any amount of wind at
all makes the Neumanns mostly unuseable.

Scott Fraser