I am having a very frustating time getting the volume we disire out of
my sound system w/o excessive feedback. I play in a bluegrass band (
www.whitepinehollow.com ) and attemtping to get a clean, amplified
acoustic sound working a single condenser mike. Our system is: AKG C
3000 B mike, sometimes a AKG C 1000 on the acoustic bass at very low
gain, Mackie 1202 board, JBL EON G2 Powered speakers. It seem like
I'm in a tug - of - war between cutting gain (loosing the mike power
we need) and increasing volume. I've had tons of advise from "ditch
the powered speakers - they're for outdoors only", to "ditch the
condenser mikes, they'll only feed". I am tempted to try a feedback
eliminator but have been told they take out too much tone?

Any and all suggestions are welcomed!

Thanks,
Marshall

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:08:40 -0700, Marshall wrote:

I am having a very frustating time getting the volume we disire out of
my sound system w/o excessive feedback. I play in a bluegrass band (
www.whitepinehollow.com ) and attemtping to get a
clean, amplified acoustic sound working a single condenser mike. Our
system is: AKG C 3000 B mike, sometimes a AKG C 1000 on the acoustic
bass at very low gain, Mackie 1202 board, JBL EON G2 Powered speakers.
It seem like I'm in a tug - of - war between cutting gain (loosing the
mike power we need) and increasing volume. I've had tons of advise from
"ditch the powered speakers - they're for outdoors only", to "ditch the
condenser mikes, they'll only feed". I am tempted to try a feedback
eliminator but have been told they take out too much tone?

Any and all suggestions are welcomed!

I'm afraid the only way to get volume is a few more mics, and closer
micing. Perhaps pickups on some instruments, combined with mics on those
that really need mics.

A feedback eliminator will probably get it a bit louder, but if you are on
the edge already it wont do much good. They are great for when a mic is
hand held, and you never know where it's going to be pointed next (usually
straight into a monitor), but not so good when they are hunting all
the time. The more the feedback eliminator is working, the weirder it'l
sound.

A big multiband graphic eq across the mains may help out if you really
don't want to change how you are micing, you can pull down the feedback
frequencies quite a lot before the sound changes too much.

Else, you could put the speakers a long way away, perhaps even at the back
of the hall facing towards you. I've never tried that, but it might work
ok!


Thanks,
Marshall

"Marshall" wrote in message
m
I am having a very frustating time getting the volume we desire out of
my sound system w/o excessive feedback. I play in a bluegrass band (
www.whitepinehollow.com ) and attempting to get a clean, amplified
acoustic sound working a single condenser mike. Our system is: AKG C
3000 B mike, sometimes a AKG C 1000 on the acoustic bass at very low
gain, Mackie 1202 board, JBL EON G2 Powered speakers. It seem like
I'm in a tug - of - war between cutting gain (loosing the mike power
we need) and increasing volume. I've had tons of advise from "ditch
the powered speakers - they're for outdoors only", to "ditch the
condenser mikes, they'll only feed". I am tempted to try a feedback
eliminator but have been told they take out too much tone?

Any and all suggestions are welcomed!

Check out these potentially helpful documents:

http://www.carvin.com/doctorsound/drsound03.php

http://www.shure.com/support/technotes/app-eq.html

http://www.prosoundweb.com/install/tfw/feedback.php

I think you'll find that they don't relate very strongly to any of the
issues you've raised. I've got a few concerns about a few items in these
documents, based on my own experiences. But, I think they will get you from
where you are, to where you need to be for additional discussion of the
matter.

In article ,
(Marshall) wrote:

I am having a very frustating time getting the volume we disire out of
my sound system w/o excessive feedback. I play in a bluegrass band (
www.whitepinehollow.com ) and attemtping to get a clean, amplified
acoustic sound working a single condenser mike. Our system is: AKG C
3000 B mike, sometimes a AKG C 1000 on the acoustic bass at very low
gain, Mackie 1202 board, JBL EON G2 Powered speakers. It seem like
I'm in a tug - of - war between cutting gain (loosing the mike power
we need) and increasing volume. I've had tons of advise from "ditch
the powered speakers - they're for outdoors only", to "ditch the
condenser mikes, they'll only feed". I am tempted to try a feedback
eliminator but have been told they take out too much tone?


The problem is that acoustic gain is inversely proportional to the
distance between the microphone and sources. If you want to work further
from the microphone, then you need to move the speaker further from the
mic, or the audience closer to the speaker. With only a pair of powered
speakers, you probably can't do much about the relative distances between
speaker and mic, or speaker and audience.

So, if you want more gain, you need to close the distance between the
mic and the instruments.

I'd consider pickups or close micing on instruments as the next step.

And yes, the feedback eliminator is a bandaid. Avoid it if at all
possible.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Marshall" wrote in message
m
I am having a very frustating time getting the volume we desire out of
my sound system w/o excessive feedback. I play in a bluegrass band (
www.whitepinehollow.com ) and attempting to get a clean, amplified
acoustic sound working a single condenser mike. Our system is: AKG C
3000 B mike, sometimes a AKG C 1000 on the acoustic bass at very low
gain, Mackie 1202 board, JBL EON G2 Powered speakers. It seem like
I'm in a tug - of - war between cutting gain (loosing the mike power
we need) and increasing volume. I've had tons of advise from "ditch
the powered speakers - they're for outdoors only", to "ditch the
condenser mikes, they'll only feed". I am tempted to try a feedback
eliminator but have been told they take out too much tone?

Any and all suggestions are welcomed!


first question: do you have someone running the sound for the entire show
or do you self mix from the stage?

second question: are the times that you have the worst problems when
available space dictates placing the speakers close to the performers?

third question: do you use a 1/3 octave graphic EQ on the mains?


FBX units work by activating a narrowband notch filter(s) of varying depths.
for a more detailed explanation visit http://www.sabine.com/ .

like any tool they have their pluses and minuses. i find that when a rock or
blues band demands really loud stage volume it gives me an extra few dB of
headroom before feedback.
using them on long, brain numbing conferences a sudden squeal (someone
cupping a mic or some goofy thing) is squelched before i can get my hand to
the board.


just using the info that you have posted my best guestimate would be that
you need to address your stage setup and techniques. you need to create a
situation where the microphone hears the instruments and not the sound from
the speakers. if you cannot achieve this you will need to close mic the
instruments and vocals.

Marshall wrote
Our
system is: AKG C 3000 B mike, sometimes a AKG C 1000 on the acoustic
bass at very low gain, Mackie 1202 board, JBL EON G2 Powered speakers.

Not the best microphones in the world you have there, those JBL EON's should
work fine. If your Mackie 1202 board has a sweep for the midrange try sweeping
to about 2300Htz and take out as much as you need. There are lot's of other bad
frequency's but that is one that will feedback quite a bit.

Hello!

I've played in a few bluegrass bands over the years and they are usually
quite interesting bands to setup mic's and p.a.'s for. Problems range
from mic-shy performers ( some fear about electrical-powered things ) to
trying to fit 4 or 5 people around one mic. Probably some of the best
sounding gigs were the ones where everyone had their own instrument mic
which minimized shuffling around on stage, but lacked that certain
down-home appeal of everyone close together for the vocal harmonies
around one mic. We also had our own vocal mics, too, since we usually
sang 3 or 4 part harmonies. This setup worked well on large outdoor
stages or settings. A big difference can be made by the individuals
stepping back slightly from the mic when they aren't taking a
break/solo....and this requires a little practice for most bluegrass
musicians. Also, monitors for the vocals really pay-off if you can
incorporate them.
I agree with the others about close mic'ing everything in the case of
getting some volume out, but I realize what you are trying to do with
just two mic's...and it is really difficult to pull off. Maybe just
make sure the pa main speakers are in front of the mic's a little, and
if you are all closeup around the A3000 mic you shouldn't need a monitor
then, Make sure your bass player is somewhat centerstage behind the
performers if possible. When you boost your volume level and things
start to feedback, either eq that squeel or howl out with a graphic
eq, and or turn down a wee bit at that point. One other thing...you
may want to make sure the mic's are somewhat isolated from the stage.
That foot tapping and stomping can telegraph right into the pa and sound
pretty bad. Same with the bass player. We used to use foam wrapped
around the mic and wedge it under the tailpiece, pointed up to the
bridge, and that would keep a lot of the mechanical/wood noise out of
the mic...and didn't sound half bad, either. We used a Shure 58 for
that, and I'm not too sure you'd want to do that to your AKG 1000. But
some sort of isolated mount could help.
I hope this helps some, and let me know if I can be of further
assistance.

Sincerely,
Dan

I prefer to have a 1/3 octave AND a feedback gadget (Sabine 3102 in my
case). Let the Sabine take care of the feedback that comes up as you raise
the gain. When you are done fiddling, lock the filters (I don't run any
floating filters). Then use the 1/3 octave for those freqs that are "loose"
but not feeding back. (When you ring out with the FBX, turn the amp inputs
down and run the board hot, so you are hitting the FBX with plenty of signal
so the detector will work faster. When done, then turn the amps back up.)


"Dan York" wrote in message
...
Hello!

I've played in a few bluegrass bands over the years and they are usually
quite interesting bands to setup mic's and p.a.'s for. Problems range
from mic-shy performers ( some fear about electrical-powered things ) to
trying to fit 4 or 5 people around one mic. Probably some of the best
sounding gigs were the ones where everyone had their own instrument mic
which minimized shuffling around on stage, but lacked that certain
down-home appeal of everyone close together for the vocal harmonies
around one mic. We also had our own vocal mics, too, since we usually
sang 3 or 4 part harmonies. This setup worked well on large outdoor
stages or settings. A big difference can be made by the individuals
stepping back slightly from the mic when they aren't taking a
break/solo....and this requires a little practice for most bluegrass
musicians. Also, monitors for the vocals really pay-off if you can
incorporate them.
I agree with the others about close mic'ing everything in the case of
getting some volume out, but I realize what you are trying to do with
just two mic's...and it is really difficult to pull off. Maybe just
make sure the pa main speakers are in front of the mic's a little, and
if you are all closeup around the A3000 mic you shouldn't need a monitor
then, Make sure your bass player is somewhat centerstage behind the
performers if possible. When you boost your volume level and things
start to feedback, either eq that squeel or howl out with a graphic
eq, and or turn down a wee bit at that point. One other thing...you
may want to make sure the mic's are somewhat isolated from the stage.
That foot tapping and stomping can telegraph right into the pa and sound
pretty bad. Same with the bass player. We used to use foam wrapped
around the mic and wedge it under the tailpiece, pointed up to the
bridge, and that would keep a lot of the mechanical/wood noise out of
the mic...and didn't sound half bad, either. We used a Shure 58 for
that, and I'm not too sure you'd want to do that to your AKG 1000. But
some sort of isolated mount could help.
I hope this helps some, and let me know if I can be of further
assistance.

Sincerely,
Dan

Else, you could put the speakers a long way away, perhaps even at the back
of the hall facing towards you. I've never tried that, but it might work
ok!

No! that won't work. The sound will be so disjointed that you will have timing
issues.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

Else, you could put the speakers a long way away, perhaps even at the back
of the hall facing towards you. I've never tried that, but it might work
ok!

No! that won't work. The sound will be so disjointed that you will have timing
issues.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

In article ,
I am having a very frustating time getting the volume we disire out of
my sound system w/o excessive feedback. I play in a bluegrass band (
www.whitepinehollow.com ) and attemtping to get a clean, amplified
acoustic sound working a single condenser mike. Our system is: AKG C
3000 B mike, sometimes a AKG C 1000 on the acoustic bass at very low
gain, Mackie 1202 board, JBL EON G2 Powered speakers. It seem like
I'm in a tug - of - war between cutting gain (loosing the mike power
we need) and increasing volume. I've had tons of advise from "ditch
the powered speakers - they're for outdoors only", to "ditch the
condenser mikes, they'll only feed". I am tempted to try a feedback
eliminator but have been told they take out too much tone?

Get tighter microphones. Condenser or not... just as long as they have
a much cleaner pattern. I cannot imagine anything worse than the C3000
in that application.

Get some way of notching out feedback modes. The Sabine feedback eliminators
do a good job if you set them up properly. If you turn them on and expect
magic out of the box, they will destroy your sound. Just like anything
else.

A parametric EQ or a little dipper will allow you to do the same thing that
the feedback eliminator does, just by hand. It will take a little longer
to set up and it will take some thought, but in the process you will get a
better sense of where the room modes are.

It would help to have speakers with better pattern control than the EONs,
too, but that is less of an issue than either one of the above.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article ,
I am having a very frustating time getting the volume we disire out of
my sound system w/o excessive feedback. I play in a bluegrass band (
www.whitepinehollow.com ) and attemtping to get a clean, amplified
acoustic sound working a single condenser mike. Our system is: AKG C
3000 B mike, sometimes a AKG C 1000 on the acoustic bass at very low
gain, Mackie 1202 board, JBL EON G2 Powered speakers. It seem like
I'm in a tug - of - war between cutting gain (loosing the mike power
we need) and increasing volume. I've had tons of advise from "ditch
the powered speakers - they're for outdoors only", to "ditch the
condenser mikes, they'll only feed". I am tempted to try a feedback
eliminator but have been told they take out too much tone?

Get tighter microphones. Condenser or not... just as long as they have
a much cleaner pattern. I cannot imagine anything worse than the C3000
in that application.

Get some way of notching out feedback modes. The Sabine feedback eliminators
do a good job if you set them up properly. If you turn them on and expect
magic out of the box, they will destroy your sound. Just like anything
else.

A parametric EQ or a little dipper will allow you to do the same thing that
the feedback eliminator does, just by hand. It will take a little longer
to set up and it will take some thought, but in the process you will get a
better sense of where the room modes are.

It would help to have speakers with better pattern control than the EONs,
too, but that is less of an issue than either one of the above.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"philicorda" wrote in message
news
A feedback eliminator will probably get it a bit louder, but if you are on
the edge already it wont do much good. They are great for when a mic is
hand held, and you never know where it's going to be pointed next (usually
straight into a monitor), but not so good when they are hunting all
the time. The more the feedback eliminator is working, the weirder it'l
sound.

That is why feedback eliminators should be set and forget devices. Don't
leave them hunting for feedback during a show as the sound will gradually
get worse.

I have terrible memories of a long note during a flute solo suddenly
disappearing from the mix entirely because of an FBX unit. Have had similar
things with electric guitars as well.

Phildo

"philicorda" wrote in message
news
A feedback eliminator will probably get it a bit louder, but if you are on
the edge already it wont do much good. They are great for when a mic is
hand held, and you never know where it's going to be pointed next (usually
straight into a monitor), but not so good when they are hunting all
the time. The more the feedback eliminator is working, the weirder it'l
sound.

That is why feedback eliminators should be set and forget devices. Don't
leave them hunting for feedback during a show as the sound will gradually
get worse.

I have terrible memories of a long note during a flute solo suddenly
disappearing from the mix entirely because of an FBX unit. Have had similar
things with electric guitars as well.

Phildo

"Tim Padrick" wrote in message
...
(When you ring out with the FBX, turn the amp inputs
down and run the board hot, so you are hitting the FBX with plenty of
signal
so the detector will work faster. When done, then turn the amps back up.)

That's a tip I've never heard before. I'll have to remember that the next
time I have to work with a FBX.

Sean

"Tim Padrick" wrote in message
...
(When you ring out with the FBX, turn the amp inputs
down and run the board hot, so you are hitting the FBX with plenty of
signal
so the detector will work faster. When done, then turn the amps back up.)

That's a tip I've never heard before. I'll have to remember that the next
time I have to work with a FBX.

Sean

In article , Phildo wrote:
"philicorda" wrote in message
A feedback eliminator will probably get it a bit louder, but if you are on
the edge already it wont do much good. They are great for when a mic is
hand held, and you never know where it's going to be pointed next (usually
straight into a monitor), but not so good when they are hunting all
the time. The more the feedback eliminator is working, the weirder it'l
sound.

That is why feedback eliminators should be set and forget devices. Don't
leave them hunting for feedback during a show as the sound will gradually
get worse.

I have terrible memories of a long note during a flute solo suddenly
disappearing from the mix entirely because of an FBX unit. Have had similar
things with electric guitars as well.

The one exception for this is for people with lav mikes. When people are
wandering around with a lav mike, the feedback modes move around with them
and the floating filters can be very handy. Don't EVER use the floating filters
on musical content, though.
---scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article , Phildo wrote:
"philicorda" wrote in message
A feedback eliminator will probably get it a bit louder, but if you are on
the edge already it wont do much good. They are great for when a mic is
hand held, and you never know where it's going to be pointed next (usually
straight into a monitor), but not so good when they are hunting all
the time. The more the feedback eliminator is working, the weirder it'l
sound.

That is why feedback eliminators should be set and forget devices. Don't
leave them hunting for feedback during a show as the sound will gradually
get worse.

I have terrible memories of a long note during a flute solo suddenly
disappearing from the mix entirely because of an FBX unit. Have had similar
things with electric guitars as well.

The one exception for this is for people with lav mikes. When people are
wandering around with a lav mike, the feedback modes move around with them
and the floating filters can be very handy. Don't EVER use the floating filters
on musical content, though.
---scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:56:10 +0100, Phildo wrote:


"philicorda" wrote in message
news
A feedback eliminator will probably get it a bit louder, but if you are on
the edge already it wont do much good. They are great for when a mic is
hand held, and you never know where it's going to be pointed next (usually
straight into a monitor), but not so good when they are hunting all
the time. The more the feedback eliminator is working, the weirder it'l
sound.

That is why feedback eliminators should be set and forget devices. Don't
leave them hunting for feedback during a show as the sound will gradually
get worse.

I thought they were for unpredictable stuff like between movable
mics and monitors, where you can't always rely on notching out all the
problem frequencies before the show. I'd use a graphic or whatevers on the
desk otherwise.

I'm in no way an experienced PA guy, (only when work is slow , so I've
only used them literally couple of times!


I have terrible memories of a long note during a flute solo suddenly
disappearing from the mix entirely because of an FBX unit. Have had
similar things with electric guitars as well.

Ouch! I've never had feedback problems with mic'd guitar cabs though,
there is too much signal for that!



Phildo

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:56:10 +0100, Phildo wrote:


"philicorda" wrote in message
news
A feedback eliminator will probably get it a bit louder, but if you are on
the edge already it wont do much good. They are great for when a mic is
hand held, and you never know where it's going to be pointed next (usually
straight into a monitor), but not so good when they are hunting all
the time. The more the feedback eliminator is working, the weirder it'l
sound.

That is why feedback eliminators should be set and forget devices. Don't
leave them hunting for feedback during a show as the sound will gradually
get worse.

I thought they were for unpredictable stuff like between movable
mics and monitors, where you can't always rely on notching out all the
problem frequencies before the show. I'd use a graphic or whatevers on the
desk otherwise.

I'm in no way an experienced PA guy, (only when work is slow , so I've
only used them literally couple of times!


I have terrible memories of a long note during a flute solo suddenly
disappearing from the mix entirely because of an FBX unit. Have had
similar things with electric guitars as well.

Ouch! I've never had feedback problems with mic'd guitar cabs though,
there is too much signal for that!



Phildo

Scott Dorsey wrote:
The one exception for this is for people with lav mikes. When people are
wandering around with a lav mike, the feedback modes move around with them
and the floating filters can be very handy. Don't EVER use the floating filters
on musical content, though.
---scott

Scott, I get good results with lavalier wearers walking around the
venue. I never use any roving filters on my feedback eliminators whether
it is music or voice. I just don't like the sound of them. To set up the
room for wireless lavs, I wear the lav mic myself with the volume up and
walk around in front of the speakers and occasionally cup my hand over
the mic to let the autofeedback elimination circuit catch the worst
tones. Then I stop the auto processes and switch to manual mode, which
means I know have a parametric EQ which was set by artificial
intelligence. Typically, I'll reduce the filters' cut depths during the
gig, making sure to listen to that frequency as I ease up on the cut
depth. And I'll add filters during the first few minutes to fine tune
the rig. I'll nudge filter freqs up or down as needed if the room's
temperature changes.

I like the Sabine GRQ series (but not the onboard compression) and the
Shure DFR series. I use RS232--laptop control during the gig.

-Bink
--
Michael 'Bink' Knowles

www.binkster.net

Scott Dorsey wrote:
The one exception for this is for people with lav mikes. When people are
wandering around with a lav mike, the feedback modes move around with them
and the floating filters can be very handy. Don't EVER use the floating filters
on musical content, though.
---scott

Scott, I get good results with lavalier wearers walking around the
venue. I never use any roving filters on my feedback eliminators whether
it is music or voice. I just don't like the sound of them. To set up the
room for wireless lavs, I wear the lav mic myself with the volume up and
walk around in front of the speakers and occasionally cup my hand over
the mic to let the autofeedback elimination circuit catch the worst
tones. Then I stop the auto processes and switch to manual mode, which
means I know have a parametric EQ which was set by artificial
intelligence. Typically, I'll reduce the filters' cut depths during the
gig, making sure to listen to that frequency as I ease up on the cut
depth. And I'll add filters during the first few minutes to fine tune
the rig. I'll nudge filter freqs up or down as needed if the room's
temperature changes.

I like the Sabine GRQ series (but not the onboard compression) and the
Shure DFR series. I use RS232--laptop control during the gig.

-Bink
--
Michael 'Bink' Knowles

www.binkster.net

Sean Conolly wrote:
"Tim Padrick" wrote in message
...

(When you ring out with the FBX, turn the amp inputs
down and run the board hot, so you are hitting the FBX with plenty of

signal

so the detector will work faster. When done, then turn the amps back up.)


That's a tip I've never heard before. I'll have to remember that the next
time I have to work with a FBX.

Sean




Tim's right. Run the board hot and you'll get it to latch onto feedback
freqs much quicker.

The Sabine units are known for their high +30dB input capability so you
have to make sure you are running a nice hot signal into them. Try to
stay balanced as well; an unbalanced insert jack won't drive the Sabine
nearly hot enough.

My one complaint with the Sabine GRQ3102 is the onboard compressor. I
don't think it sounds good. I usually run the signal into a compressor
first then out to the GRQ.

-Bink
--
Michael 'Bink' Knowles

www.binkster.net

Sean Conolly wrote:
"Tim Padrick" wrote in message
...

(When you ring out with the FBX, turn the amp inputs
down and run the board hot, so you are hitting the FBX with plenty of

signal

so the detector will work faster. When done, then turn the amps back up.)


That's a tip I've never heard before. I'll have to remember that the next
time I have to work with a FBX.

Sean




Tim's right. Run the board hot and you'll get it to latch onto feedback
freqs much quicker.

The Sabine units are known for their high +30dB input capability so you
have to make sure you are running a nice hot signal into them. Try to
stay balanced as well; an unbalanced insert jack won't drive the Sabine
nearly hot enough.

My one complaint with the Sabine GRQ3102 is the onboard compressor. I
don't think it sounds good. I usually run the signal into a compressor
first then out to the GRQ.

-Bink
--
Michael 'Bink' Knowles

www.binkster.net