Just a quick couple of questions I hope!!

1. When I look at a file dubbed from a turntable (Thorens with Stanton
881S) under Sony Soundforge and use the spectrum analysis plugin I see
virtually a straight line from 60hz down to 0 hz.

Why is this? (I am not using a subsonic filter on the pre-amp)

2. I am dubbing from a Thorens with a Stanton 881s (no brush) through a
Marantz 2285B and going out the pre-amp outs.
Should I use the 15hz filter on the Marantz or filter the rumble out
later?
If I come out the rec outputs it bypasses everything in the Marantz.
If I come out the pre-amp outs I can insert the 18db/octave 15hz filter.

3. I am archiving MANY very well worn and abused vinyl lp's and wish to
use the best method.
I have Waves Restoration as well as several other plugins but I wish to do
this right so here is what I am doing.

Recording RAW wave at 16 bit 44.1khz through my Mackie and into my Delta
1010 and on to the hard drive.
I am archiving the raw wave files for the future and I will provide the
client with the de-noised copies.

Is their a better way?

What about back ups and archiving in general?

Any and all advice is appreciated as while I have done this in the past but
never on this level of 1000's of LP's..

TIA....

"flatfish+++" wrote in message
news
Just a quick couple of questions I hope!!

1. When I look at a file dubbed from a turntable (Thorens with Stanton
881S) under Sony Soundforge and use the spectrum analysis plugin I see
virtually a straight line from 60hz down to 0 hz.

Why is this? (I am not using a subsonic filter on the pre-amp)

That's unusual; I'd expect to see peaks and dips in the line from 60Hz on
down, with a big one at the major resonant frequency of the cartridge-arm
combination, which is around 10Hz if you're lucky and the system is set up
right. Anyway, you're seeing all the warp and other infrasonic garbage, plus
whatever junk was recorded onto the master, including lathe noise.

2. I am dubbing from a Thorens with a Stanton 881s (no brush) through a
Marantz 2285B and going out the pre-amp outs.
Should I use the 15hz filter on the Marantz or filter the rumble out
later?
If I come out the rec outputs it bypasses everything in the Marantz.
If I come out the pre-amp outs I can insert the 18db/octave 15hz filter.

I'd go out the rec outputs and filter later. The less of the Marantz's
rather dubious circuitry you run through, the better. Besides, on a lot of
records you can filter at a higher frequency and cut the crud even more
without disturbing the signal.

3. I am archiving MANY very well worn and abused vinyl lp's and wish to
use the best method.
I have Waves Restoration as well as several other plugins but I wish to do
this right so here is what I am doing.

Recording RAW wave at 16 bit 44.1khz through my Mackie and into my Delta
1010 and on to the hard drive.
I am archiving the raw wave files for the future and I will provide the
client with the de-noised copies.

Is their a better way?

Given that you'll be processing the material, I'd suggest recording at 24
bits, still 44.1kHz. You won't gain anything in the noise region, but the
conversion will be slightly cleaner-sounding. Oh, and skip the Mackie, which
has circuitry that buggers up the sound probably worse than the Marantz; go
from the preamp's rec out straight into the Delta card.

What about back ups and archiving in general?

Depends on how much money you got, but for right now, decent CD-Rs like
Taiyo Yuden, burned slowish, look like the way to go. On important stuff I
keep three audio CDs (which necessitates making 16-bit versions) and two or
three data CDs. Store one off-site.

Peace,
Paul

flatfish+++ wrote:
Just a quick couple of questions I hope!!

1. When I look at a file dubbed from a turntable (Thorens with Stanton
881S) under Sony Soundforge and use the spectrum analysis plugin I see
virtually a straight line from 60hz down to 0 hz.

Seems very strange.

Why is this? (I am not using a subsonic filter on the pre-amp)

Can you find some free web site where you can post this?

2. I am dubbing from a Thorens with a Stanton 881s (no brush) through
a Marantz 2285B and going out the pre-amp outs.

Should I use the 15hz filter on the Marantz or filter the rumble out
later?

Generally speaking DAW software such as Sound Forge has a richer and more
flexible selection of filters.

If I come out the rec outputs it bypasses everything in the Marantz.
If I come out the pre-amp outs I can insert the 18db/octave 15hz
filter.

I do my filtering of this kind with software.

3. I am archiving MANY very well worn and abused vinyl lp's and wish
to use the best method.

Have you read the various popular web sites dedicated to this?

Examples:

http://www.a-reny.com/iexplorer/restauration.html

http://www.delback.co.uk/lp-cdr.htm

I have Waves Restoration as well as several other plugins but I wish
to do this right so here is what I am doing.

Recording RAW wave at 16 bit 44.1khz through my Mackie and into my
Delta 1010 and on to the hard drive.

This can work. I do it by recording the main outputs of a preamp through a
similar sound card, usually a Card Deluxe. That way I avoid the console, but
the console is not necessarily a bad thing.

I am archiving the raw wave files for the future and I will provide
the client with the de-noised copies.

That is generally how this sort of thing is done.

Is their a better way?

What about back ups and archiving in general?

Burn data CDs.

Any and all advice is appreciated as while I have done this in the
past but never on this level of 1000's of LP's..

Lots of work!

flatfish+++ wrote:
Just a quick couple of questions I hope!!

1. When I look at a file dubbed from a turntable (Thorens with Stanton
881S) under Sony Soundforge and use the spectrum analysis plugin I see
virtually a straight line from 60hz down to 0 hz.

Why is this? (I am not using a subsonic filter on the pre-amp)

Where is this straight line? Is it at zero, or is it much higher, indicating
you have a lot of low frequency trash on the preamp?

Are you getting this when playing music? What if you play a sweep test
disc?

2. I am dubbing from a Thorens with a Stanton 881s (no brush) through a
Marantz 2285B and going out the pre-amp outs.
Should I use the 15hz filter on the Marantz or filter the rumble out
later?
If I come out the rec outputs it bypasses everything in the Marantz.
If I come out the pre-amp outs I can insert the 18db/octave 15hz filter.

Do you hear any rumble? If you do not hear any rumble, don't worry about it.
If you hear rumble, you can do the low cut anywhere along the line.

3. I am archiving MANY very well worn and abused vinyl lp's and wish to
use the best method.
I have Waves Restoration as well as several other plugins but I wish to do
this right so here is what I am doing.

These systems can reduce noise, but they can do nothing about distortion.
If you have worn records, your goal is to get them as clean as possible and
to track as well as possible. A cartridge with a fineline stylus will be
WELL worth the investment.

Recording RAW wave at 16 bit 44.1khz through my Mackie and into my Delta
1010 and on to the hard drive.
I am archiving the raw wave files for the future and I will provide the
client with the de-noised copies.

Is their a better way?

If you are charging money for this, at the very least charge enough so
that you can get a better cartridge and a cleaning machine. Even the $150
Nitty Gritty machine will help a huge amount.

What about back ups and archiving in general?

Any and all advice is appreciated as while I have done this in the past but
never on this level of 1000's of LP's..

If you're doing this for an archive, for God's sake spend the money for
the Kieth Monks machine, a fineline cartridge, and a better preamp. And
maybe a better damped arm with a VTA adjustment so you can tweak the stereo
separation a bit.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

flatfish+++ wrote:
Just a quick couple of questions I hope!!

1. When I look at a file dubbed from a turntable (Thorens with Stanton
881S) under Sony Soundforge and use the spectrum analysis plugin I see
virtually a straight line from 60hz down to 0 hz.

Why is this? (I am not using a subsonic filter on the pre-amp)

How large of a window are you using for your spectral analysis? If your
sample window is less than 1/60 of a second, the FFT won't give you any
spectral lines between 0 and 60 Hz and I'm sure the software will just
linearly interpolate between the two bins.

wrote:
On 9 Apr 2004 10:44:36 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

2. I am dubbing from a Thorens with a Stanton 881s (no brush) through a
Marantz 2285B and going out the pre-amp outs.
Should I use the 15hz filter on the Marantz or filter the rumble out
later?
If I come out the rec outputs it bypasses everything in the Marantz.
If I come out the pre-amp outs I can insert the 18db/octave 15hz filter.

Do you hear any rumble? If you do not hear any rumble, don't worry about it.
If you hear rumble, you can do the low cut anywhere along the line.

I don't hear anything down there.

Don't worry about it, then.

3. I am archiving MANY very well worn and abused vinyl lp's and wish to
use the best method.
I have Waves Restoration as well as several other plugins but I wish to do
this right so here is what I am doing.

These systems can reduce noise, but they can do nothing about distortion.
If you have worn records, your goal is to get them as clean as possible and
to track as well as possible. A cartridge with a fineline stylus will be
WELL worth the investment.

Well, my other choices are a Shure V15 Type 4 Microline and a Stanton
681EEES.

The Shure seems to track better than the Stanton's but it picks up a lot
more surface noise on some records than either of the Stantons.

The V15 will track AMAZINGLY better than a Stanton, but I would think
that anything as old as a Type 4 is probably going to be pretty shot.
Send it off to Shure and have them check the suspension on it.

Fiddling wtih VTA on those will sometimes alter the surface noise, too.
But I bet part of the reason you get more noise with it is that it has
a lot more top end than the Stanton.

Your goal for transcription, though, is to get lowest distortion. Don't
worry about noise as much as distortion. You can clean the noise up after
the fact, but you can't do anything about tracking distortion or tracing
distortion.

Recording RAW wave at 16 bit 44.1khz through my Mackie and into my Delta
1010 and on to the hard drive.
I am archiving the raw wave files for the future and I will provide the
client with the de-noised copies.

Is their a better way?

If you are charging money for this, at the very least charge enough so
that you can get a better cartridge and a cleaning machine. Even the $150
Nitty Gritty machine will help a huge amount.

I've got the Model-1 and it works GREAT!

Many of these records are not really worn, but they have suffered poor
treatment over the years due to improper storage.
Some were involved in a flood at one point.

The flooded ones, you wash by hand with Alconox or Decontam or even Ivory
soap before you put it through the machine.

If you have a thousand records to do, the VPI or more expensive Nitty Gritty
machines with the automated stuff are a lot easier. But they won't be any
more effective than the Model 1, just less work.

I also have an Apt-Holman and a Fisher 500C that are in excellent shape.

Try the Apt Holman with the Shure and see if you're still seeing the low
end cut.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

wrote:
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 07:14:43 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

flatfish+++ wrote:
Just a quick couple of questions I hope!!

1. When I look at a file dubbed from a turntable (Thorens with
Stanton 881S) under Sony Soundforge and use the spectrum analysis
plugin I see virtually a straight line from 60hz down to 0 hz.

Seems very strange.

Why is this? (I am not using a subsonic filter on the pre-amp)

Can you find some free web site where you can post this?

Take a look here, under the audio album:

http://community.webshots.com/user/flattfish

Oh, this is looks like an example of a FFT without enough points, or one
that is improperly windowed or both.

Improper windowing is often caused by centering the analysis window too
close to either end of the audio sample. You want about 16K points, about
10 seconds of audio, and do your analysis right smack dab in the middle.

Once you get a believable analysis, try fewer points and sample points
closer to the ends of the sample, and watch things fall apart.

Once you get a feel for this you'll probably never be faked out again!

Let me know if this doesn't help.

Scott Dorsey wrote:

The V15 will track AMAZINGLY better than a Stanton, but I would think
that anything as old as a Type 4 is probably going to be pretty shot.
Send it off to Shure and have them check the suspension on it.

Are you talking about age or wear? I have a V15 Type III that hasn't seen much
use. Should I install it now and and use it while (if) it's still ok, or do you
think it may be shot, ie, rotten rubber parts or something?

In article ,
S O'Neill wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

The V15 will track AMAZINGLY better than a Stanton, but I would think
that anything as old as a Type 4 is probably going to be pretty shot.
Send it off to Shure and have them check the suspension on it.

Are you talking about age or wear? I have a V15 Type III that hasn't seen much
use. Should I install it now and and use it while (if) it's still ok, or do you
think it may be shot, ie, rotten rubber parts or something?

Yes, the rubber gadgets in the suspension get hard and crusty. Shure can
fix 'em.

The Type III wasn't made for very long so there aren't many out there, but
you can use a Type IV replacement stylus on the Type III if you remove the
brush.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

wrote:
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 13:37:44 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 07:14:43 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

flatfish+++ wrote:
Just a quick couple of questions I hope!!

1. When I look at a file dubbed from a turntable (Thorens with
Stanton 881S) under Sony Soundforge and use the spectrum analysis
plugin I see virtually a straight line from 60hz down to 0 hz.

Seems very strange.

Why is this? (I am not using a subsonic filter on the pre-amp)

Can you find some free web site where you can post this?

Take a look here, under the audio album:

http://community.webshots.com/user/flattfish

Oh, this is looks like an example of a FFT without enough points, or
one that is improperly windowed or both.

Improper windowing is often caused by centering the analysis window
too close to either end of the audio sample. You want about 16K
points, about 10 seconds of audio, and do your analysis right smack
dab in the middle.

Once you get a believable analysis, try fewer points and sample
points closer to the ends of the sample, and watch things fall apart.

Once you get a feel for this you'll probably never be faked out
again!

Let me know if this doesn't help.


Ok here is how I did it:

Open the waveform.
Select the entire wave form.
Open the View/Spectrum Analysis window
It calculates for a couple of seconds and the display is what I
posted.

It's weird...

What am I doing wrong here?

Your first problem is that you're asking someone who doesn't use SoundForge.
I use Audition, but windowing/sampling errors look the same with any
program. The tricky part is knowing the right keystrokes for doing things
*right* for the given piece of software.

Here's how I'd do it in Audition:

Open a waveform file that is at least 10 seconds long.
Click the center of the file
Specify at least 16,000 samples for the analysis
Open the Spectrum Analysis window

Scott Dorsey wrote:


The Type III wasn't made for very long so there aren't many out there, but
you can use a Type IV replacement stylus on the Type III if you remove the
brush.
--scott

So it's off to eBay: Rare Vintage Shure Vinyl Cartridge $16,000.

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 14:23:18 -0700, S O'Neill wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:


The Type III wasn't made for very long so there aren't many out there, but
you can use a Type IV replacement stylus on the Type III if you remove the
brush.
--scott

So it's off to eBay: Rare Vintage Shure Vinyl Cartridge $16,000.

You have to add:

Smoke free environment:
Warm sounding:
Used just once to test:
Never driven over 33rpm:

flatfish+++ wrote:

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 14:23:18 -0700, S O'Neill wrote:


Scott Dorsey wrote:



The Type III wasn't made for very long so there aren't many out there, but
you can use a Type IV replacement stylus on the Type III if you remove the
brush.
--scott

So it's off to eBay: Rare Vintage Shure Vinyl Cartridge $16,000.


You have to add:

Smoke free environment:
Warm sounding:
Used just once to test:
Never driven over 33rpm:

and

Like Stanton, Astatic, Smith and Wesson, JBL, Neve, Pendleton, Heinz, ...

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 12:46:53 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:


The V15 will track AMAZINGLY better than a Stanton, but I would think
that anything as old as a Type 4 is probably going to be pretty shot.
Send it off to Shure and have them check the suspension on it.

I did replace the stylus last year with an original brand new Shure.
Does this take care of any suspension problems or are they internal to the
cartridge body?

The Shure tracks my Harry James "King James Version" and Sheffield "Track
Record" much better than the Stanton, that's for certain.
The damping brush also deals with warps better than the Stanton brush did
before I removed it because it gives off a metallic sound of it's own.
I reset the tracking force after removing it of course.


Fiddling wtih VTA on those will sometimes alter the surface noise, too.
But I bet part of the reason you get more noise with it is that it has
a lot more top end than the Stanton.

I was wondering if it was riding in a different part of the groove
compared to where the original owner of the records cartridge (a nail in a
piece of plastic I think) did.

I adjusted the VTA with the gauge Thorens supplies with the turntable.
Basically lay the cartridge upside down on a flat surface, put the gauge
behind it and then put spacers under it until it lines up in the grid.

The # 3 spacer seems to do the trick.



Your goal for transcription, though, is to get lowest distortion. Don't
worry about noise as much as distortion. You can clean the noise up after
the fact, but you can't do anything about tracking distortion or tracing
distortion.

Ok, that's what I will shoot for.


The flooded ones, you wash by hand with Alconox or Decontam or even Ivory
soap before you put it through the machine.

I've been using Ivory and my water is pretty clean so it seems to work
rather well.
I can feel the soap lifting the grit to the surface and then running it
though the machine makes most of them sound pretty decent.


Try the Apt Holman with the Shure and see if you're still seeing the low
end cut.
--scott

I found a couple that I did with the Apt and the Shure and I see basically
the same thing.

Flat down to 0 hz

I think Arny is on the right track and I am doing something wrong with the
program.

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:03:37 -0700, S O'Neill wrote:


and

Like Stanton, Astatic, Smith and Wesson, JBL, Neve, Pendleton, Heinz, ...

LMAO....

eBay is fun but sometimes I wonder what the condition of a lot of
this gear really is.

wrote:
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 16:30:43 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Here's how I'd do it in Audition:

Open a waveform file that is at least 10 seconds long.
Click the center of the file
Specify at least 16,000 samples for the analysis
Open the Spectrum Analysis window

OK. I have Audition 1.0 so here goes!

I selected a good portion of the same wave used in the other
screenshots with Soundforge.

I selected from the menu Analyze Show Frequency Analysis

Here is the screenshot:

http://community.webshots.com/user/flattfish

It's the one named Audition.

I see two critical problems.

(1) The file cursor is at the left end of the file, The numbers in the "Sel
Begin" field confirm this. The recommended location was center of screen,
someplace around 13:00:00.

(2) The FFT size shown is 1024. The recommended number would be 16384 or
more.

Here's your box sco

Open a waveform file that is at least 10 seconds long.

*** check! The file is about 27 minutes long, a great plenty.

Click the center of the file

*** fail! Details noted above.

Specify at least 16,000 samples for the analysis

*** fail! Details noted above.

Open the Spectrum Analysis window

***check!

flatfish+++ wrote:
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 12:46:53 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

The V15 will track AMAZINGLY better than a Stanton, but I would think
that anything as old as a Type 4 is probably going to be pretty shot.
Send it off to Shure and have them check the suspension on it.

I did replace the stylus last year with an original brand new Shure.

In essence you followed the spirit of Scott's excellent advice.

Does this take care of any suspension problems or are they internal
to the cartridge body?

There is no suspension in the Shure cartridge body. The cartridge body has
no moving parts. It's just coils, cores, molded plastic holding things in
place, and a mu-metal shield around the coils and cores.

The Shure tracks my Harry James "King James Version" and Sheffield
"Track Record" much better than the Stanton, that's for certain.

Agreed. Shure made their reputation with good tracking. The only other brand
that I've seen track nearly as well is Grado. There may be others, but this
is my limited experience.

Pickering, Stanton and Empire always disappointed me with their substandard
tracking.

I was wondering if it was riding in a different part of the groove
compared to where the original owner of the records cartridge (a nail
in a piece of plastic I think) did.

Possibly.

Try the Apt Holman with the Shure and see if you're still seeing the
low end cut.

I have an Apt Holman, too. IME it's strongest features are the excellent
volume control tracking and the back-panel switch that allows you to adjust
the cartridge loading capacitance. It's worst feature are the switches which
seem to require a lot of attention.

wrote:

I'm getting better

So did this change things any?

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 19:29:38 -0400, Arny Krueger wrote:

wrote:

I'm getting better

So did this change things any?

Yes it did...
I see a bump at 10hz or so and a major dropoff down to 0 hz after that....

Looks like pilot error on this one

Responding to Scott, I switched back to the V15 Type 4 MR and took my time
setting it up with particular respect to the VTA and I found that I was
incorrect using the 3.0 spacer when in fact the 3.5 spacer was the correct
one.

Maybe one too many glasses of wine the other day

Anyway,surface noise with Shure has been reduced in a MAJOR way so you
were right on target.

Still, adjusting a cartridge, especially the "tilt" of the head seems like
going back to the days of the alchemists.

I stick the little Thorens mirror under the head shell and look for an
imaginary vertical line the cartridge but it still seems quite crude to
me and I have been doing this for years as an audiophile.

Even still, my extra care (thanks to the prompting from the group) has
made a major difference in sound quality.

flatfish+++ wrote:
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 12:46:53 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

The V15 will track AMAZINGLY better than a Stanton, but I would think
that anything as old as a Type 4 is probably going to be pretty shot.
Send it off to Shure and have them check the suspension on it.

I did replace the stylus last year with an original brand new Shure.
Does this take care of any suspension problems or are they internal to the
cartridge body?

Yup, with the Shure, you're good to go. Some other cartridges have
additional suspension stuff in the body, but not the Shure. Keep it,
it's a nice cartridge.

The Shure tracks my Harry James "King James Version" and Sheffield "Track
Record" much better than the Stanton, that's for certain.
The damping brush also deals with warps better than the Stanton brush did
before I removed it because it gives off a metallic sound of it's own.
I reset the tracking force after removing it of course.

Yup. Listen to how things like horns sound on worn records, on the Shure
versus the Stanton. The difference gets very pronounced on old records
with worn grooves, which the Shure tracks amazingly well and the Stanton
just damages further by mistracking.

Fiddling wtih VTA on those will sometimes alter the surface noise, too.
But I bet part of the reason you get more noise with it is that it has
a lot more top end than the Stanton.

I was wondering if it was riding in a different part of the groove
compared to where the original owner of the records cartridge (a nail in a
piece of plastic I think) did.

Probably. The thing about the fineline styli is that they always ride in
a rather odd part of the groove and they don't make much groove contact.
This is part of why they track so well. Fiddling with the VTA will help
you find a section that tracks a little better, even though it will also
alter your stereo imaging in the process.

I adjusted the VTA with the gauge Thorens supplies with the turntable.
Basically lay the cartridge upside down on a flat surface, put the gauge
behind it and then put spacers under it until it lines up in the grid.

The # 3 spacer seems to do the trick.

If all records were cut properly and brand new, this would be perfect.
The problem is that when records are miscut and screwed up, sometimes
you want to be able to alter the VTA away from what is nominal. An arm
with an adjustable pivot height allows you to do this.

Your goal for transcription, though, is to get lowest distortion. Don't
worry about noise as much as distortion. You can clean the noise up after
the fact, but you can't do anything about tracking distortion or tracing
distortion.

Ok, that's what I will shoot for.


The flooded ones, you wash by hand with Alconox or Decontam or even Ivory
soap before you put it through the machine.

I've been using Ivory and my water is pretty clean so it seems to work
rather well.
I can feel the soap lifting the grit to the surface and then running it
though the machine makes most of them sound pretty decent.

Scary, isn't it? I think Alconox is a little bit more harsh than Ivory.
I know folks who use undiluted Lysol Direct for prewashing too... and
that stuff is really alkaline. If Ivory is getting the gunk off, go for it.

Try the Apt Holman with the Shure and see if you're still seeing the low
end cut.

I found a couple that I did with the Apt and the Shure and I see basically
the same thing.

Flat down to 0 hz

I think Arny is on the right track and I am doing something wrong with the
program.

Yes, that's absolutely a measurement artifact. Don't worry about that.
Worry about how it sounds. And I bet a nickel it sounds a hell of a lot
better with the Shure and the Apt Holman.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."