hi folks,

its getting vrey difficult to record and mix with any confidence in my
room, because im obviously not hearing everything. my studio is a
spare bedroom, 12X14X10 with auralex on the walls, and some bass traps
in the upper corners. the foam did make a difference, everything
sounded a little more solid. but i work at a studio now, with good
rooms and a good control room. the difference there is huge [mackies
are there, sa opposed to my BAS 20/20's]. the sounds just gel more,
and i can hear the affects when i eq something. its jsut not like
that in my room.

can someone let me know what frequencies i am missing, or post
equasions on finding them myself? it feels like im sitting under the
peak of a huge standing wave something, there is this gap that i am
in, but if it scoot back a foot or two, it sounds different [better,
but not all the way]. its not possible to move everything back that
amount of space, there is much more equipment in the room. the room
isnt ideal, but is there a way to make the mixes translate better? i
dislike headphones, and prefer to hear a more expansive sound stage,
and i dotn seem to hear that with headphones [mdr90's].

i was also wondering if changing monitors wound help at all. are the
bas 20/20s too "big" for the room? our home computer has altec
desktops [the ones that come with DELLs, plus the sub. even that
sounds better in a way. im just not sure how to fix what i can of
this.

also, ive been reading RAP for several years now, and gotten wonderful
insight from all the posts. just had to mention it. thanks for that.

Robert

Volksturm wrote in :

hi folks,

its getting vrey difficult to record and mix with any confidence in my
room, because im obviously not hearing everything. my studio is a
spare bedroom, 12X14X10 with auralex on the walls, and some bass traps
in the upper corners. the foam did make a difference, everything
sounded a little more solid. but i work at a studio now, with good
rooms and a good control room. the difference there is huge [mackies
are there, sa opposed to my BAS 20/20's]. the sounds just gel more,
and i can hear the affects when i eq something. its jsut not like
that in my room.

can someone let me know what frequencies i am missing, or post
equasions on finding them myself? it feels like im sitting under the
peak of a huge standing wave something, there is this gap that i am
in, but if it scoot back a foot or two, it sounds different [better,
but not all the way]. its not possible to move everything back that
amount of space, there is much more equipment in the room. the room
isnt ideal, but is there a way to make the mixes translate better? i
dislike headphones, and prefer to hear a more expansive sound stage,
and i dotn seem to hear that with headphones [mdr90's].

i was also wondering if changing monitors wound help at all. are the
bas 20/20s too "big" for the room? our home computer has altec
desktops [the ones that come with DELLs, plus the sub. even that
sounds better in a way. im just not sure how to fix what i can of
this.

also, ive been reading RAP for several years now, and gotten wonderful
insight from all the posts. just had to mention it. thanks for that.

Robert


You need to do some measurements in the problem room. Repositioning the
speakers may help but without a scientific approach, you are just
guessing with a large number of variables involved.

Have you read the white papers by Dr. Floyd Toole? Do you have
a SPL meter? 1/3 octave warble tone generator?

Are your speakers the ones described at
http://www.prorec.com/prorec/article...256AE1000FA82A

Are the Mackies the ones described at
http://www.prorec.com/prorec/article...256AE100131216

You may want to upgrade to the mackies sometime soon.

r

--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.

"Rich Andrews." wrote in message
. 44...
Volksturm wrote in
:

hi folks,

snip
can someone let me know what frequencies i am missing, or post
equasions on finding them myself? it feels like im sitting under the
peak of a huge standing wave something, there is this gap that i am
in, but if it scoot back a foot or two, it sounds different [better,
but not all the way]. its not possible to move everything back that
amount of space, there is much more equipment in the room. the room
isnt ideal, but is there a way to make the mixes translate better? i
dislike headphones, and prefer to hear a more expansive sound stage,
and i dotn seem to hear that with headphones [mdr90's].
snip

Robert


You need to do some measurements in the problem room. Repositioning the
speakers may help but without a scientific approach, you are just
guessing with a large number of variables involved.

Have you read the white papers by Dr. Floyd Toole? Do you have
a SPL meter? 1/3 octave warble tone generator?

Have a look into analysis software too, eg. at www.etfacoustic.com
My guess is that your room could be improved by more extensive bass
trapping.
Once you know your problem frequencies and the room modes contributing to
them,
some properly placed tuned panel absorbers should make things better.
See eg. the "Master handbook of acoustics" by F. A. Everest.
As a commercial alternative www.realtraps.com also
has some interesting offerings.

Event 20/20bas is another suspect, I've had them too and they're nowhere
near accurate.
Could you borrow some other monitors for comparison?

-jp

"Volksturm" wrote in message
...
hi folks,

its getting vrey difficult to record and mix with any confidence in my
room, because im obviously not hearing everything. my studio is a
spare bedroom, 12X14X10 with auralex on the walls, and some bass traps
in the upper corners.

Just how much auralex is on the walls?
If you have covered your walls completely with auralex then what you have
done is removed all the tops and just exposed all the other problems in the
room.

Ideally you should remove all frequencies by the same amount. This probably
means putting in more bass traps and reducing the area of auralex but
increasing the thickness so that it works down to a lower frequency.
Compressed fibreglass is supposed to be a much more efficient absorber than
auralex.

Anthony Gosnell

In rec.audio.pro, Volksturm wrote:

hi folks,

its getting vrey difficult to record and mix with any confidence in my
room, because im obviously not hearing everything. my studio is a
spare bedroom, 12X14X10 with auralex on the walls, and some bass traps
in the upper corners. the foam did make a difference, everything
sounded a little more solid. but i work at a studio now, with good
rooms and a good control room. the difference there is huge [mackies
are there, sa opposed to my BAS 20/20's]. the sounds just gel more,
and i can hear the affects when i eq something. its jsut not like
that in my room.

can someone let me know what frequencies i am missing, or post
equasions on finding them myself?

You can get the book "The Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton
Everest, it has all the formulas to calculate the room nodes given
room dimensions, and discusses their use. Actually, the book is
better for getting an understanding of these things (and what to do
about them), there are free programs and spreadsheets around that will
do node calculations for you.

it feels like im sitting under the
peak of a huge standing wave something, there is this gap that i am
in, but if it scoot back a foot or two, it sounds different [better,
but not all the way]. its not possible to move everything back that
amount of space, there is much more equipment in the room. the room
isnt ideal, but is there a way to make the mixes translate better? i
dislike headphones, and prefer to hear a more expansive sound stage,
and i dotn seem to hear that with headphones [mdr90's].

i was also wondering if changing monitors wound help at all. are the
bas 20/20s too "big" for the room? our home computer has altec
desktops [the ones that come with DELLs, plus the sub. even that
sounds better in a way. im just not sure how to fix what i can of
this.

also, ive been reading RAP for several years now, and gotten wonderful
insight from all the posts. just had to mention it. thanks for that.

Robert

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

Robert,

can someone let me know what frequencies i am missing

You're missing all of them. Seriously. Which frequencies are nulled out
depends more on where you are in the room than on the room dimensions.

In a normal sized room the main peaks and nulls are at 1/4 wavelength
distances from the rear wall. The holes are at 1/4, 3/4, 5/4, etc.
wavelengths, and the peaks are at 2/4, 4/4, 6/4, etc. wavelengths. For
confirmation, play a 100 Hz tone and walk from the mix position toward the
rear wall. Depending on how far back that wall is, you'll hear the level go
up and down several times at about every three feet.

The correct solution is broadband absorption that's effective down to at
least 80 Hz if not lower. A little foam on the walls and in the corners will
not do much for the low frequencies, which is where the worst of your
problems are occurring.

For a more complete explanation see the Acoustics FAQ, second in the list on
my Articles page:

www.ethanwiner.com/articles.html

--Ethan

Robert

Volksturm wrote in
:

hi folks,

its getting vrey difficult to record and mix with any confidence in my
room, because im obviously not hearing everything. my studio is a
spare bedroom, 12X14X10 with auralex on the walls, and some bass traps
in the upper corners. the foam did make a difference, everything
sounded a little more solid. but i work at a studio now, with good
rooms and a good control room. the difference there is huge [mackies
are there, sa opposed to my BAS 20/20's]. the sounds just gel more,
and i can hear the affects when i eq something. its jsut not like
that in my room.

can someone let me know what frequencies i am missing, or post
equasions on finding them myself? it feels like im sitting under the
peak of a huge standing wave something, there is this gap that i am
in, but if it scoot back a foot or two, it sounds different [better,
but not all the way]. its not possible to move everything back that
amount of space, there is much more equipment in the room. the room
isnt ideal, but is there a way to make the mixes translate better? i
dislike headphones, and prefer to hear a more expansive sound stage,
and i dotn seem to hear that with headphones [mdr90's].

i was also wondering if changing monitors wound help at all. are the
bas 20/20s too "big" for the room? our home computer has altec
desktops [the ones that come with DELLs, plus the sub. even that
sounds better in a way. im just not sure how to fix what i can of
this.

also, ive been reading RAP for several years now, and gotten wonderful
insight from all the posts. just had to mention it. thanks for that.

Robert

Rich, thanks for those links. it described quite accurately how i
feel about the 20/20s. al my mixes tend to be muddy, and a good mix
from another studio sounds somehwat hollow in an odd way.
btw, those links were fantastic, lots of good info.

Jari, i went to the harman intl website and checked out the White
Papers and found it very informative.
thats some great software from acoustisoft. i dont have an spl meter,
nor a warble tone generator, but it looks like im getting them soon.

thanks for the replies!

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:59:28 +0200, "anthony.gosnell"
wrote:

"Volksturm" wrote in message
.. .
hi folks,

its getting vrey difficult to record and mix with any confidence in my
room, because im obviously not hearing everything. my studio is a
spare bedroom, 12X14X10 with auralex on the walls, and some bass traps
in the upper corners.

Just how much auralex is on the walls?
If you have covered your walls completely with auralex then what you have
done is removed all the tops and just exposed all the other problems in the
room.

Ideally you should remove all frequencies by the same amount. This probably
means putting in more bass traps and reducing the area of auralex but
increasing the thickness so that it works down to a lower frequency.
Compressed fibreglass is supposed to be a much more efficient absorber than
auralex.

Anthony Gosnell


hi anthony,

i have three 2x2 tiles on my left wall, a bit staggered, one 2x2 on
the right wall, as there is a door on one side and a closet on the
other. the front wall, behind the monitors have 4 2x2s. there are
three bass traps in the upper corners, with the rear uppper right
corner empty, because of some closet door. there is still much
exposed wall. nothing is on the ceilings. the rear wall is a picture
window with a type of venetian blind.
that foam package came with some diffusors, that you would mount
directly, or onto a board to hang. im not using those [yet]. i
thought diffusion is for scattering echoes, and im not sure that is my
problem, unless the echoes were canceling the sounds i cant hear. my
problem seems to be more of room dimension. but, im green and am
looking for all advice. thanks

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:04:10 -0500, Ben Bradley
wrote:



You can get the book "The Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton
Everest, it has all the formulas to calculate the room nodes given
room dimensions, and discusses their use. Actually, the book is
better for getting an understanding of these things (and what to do
about them), there are free programs and spreadsheets around that will
do node calculations for you.

i just picked that up yesterday, nice thick book full of equasions!
its rad.

hi ethan,

thanks a bunch for the link. i bookmarked your acoustics page, and
will enjoy reading through that. the diffusion and apsorbtion page was
really informative. thanks! i think i did read articles youve done on
this subject in various magazines, but that was before i noticed my
music really sufferein in the mix.
would you say that proper treatment of my room could yield great
results?[its 12x14x10] is it possible to make any room sound great,
regardless of size?

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:24:36 -0500, "Ethan Winer" ethanw at
ethanwiner dot com wrote:

Robert,

can someone let me know what frequencies i am missing

You're missing all of them. Seriously. Which frequencies are nulled out
depends more on where you are in the room than on the room dimensions.

In a normal sized room the main peaks and nulls are at 1/4 wavelength
distances from the rear wall. The holes are at 1/4, 3/4, 5/4, etc.
wavelengths, and the peaks are at 2/4, 4/4, 6/4, etc. wavelengths. For
confirmation, play a 100 Hz tone and walk from the mix position toward the
rear wall. Depending on how far back that wall is, you'll hear the level go
up and down several times at about every three feet.

The correct solution is broadband absorption that's effective down to at
least 80 Hz if not lower. A little foam on the walls and in the corners will
not do much for the low frequencies, which is where the worst of your
problems are occurring.

For a more complete explanation see the Acoustics FAQ, second in the list on
my Articles page:

www.ethanwiner.com/articles.html

--Ethan

Robert,

would you say that proper treatment of my room could yield great
results?[its 12x14x10] is it possible to make any room sound great,
regardless of size?

"Great" is relative. Yes, with enough real bass trapping - not just a few
foam panels and foam corners - you can get very good results in a room that
size. It will never be a state of the art room no matter how much treatment
you apply. But you can definitely take it from "This sucks big time" to
"Wow, I can finally hear what I'm doing."

Also, I second the recommendation to get the ETF software from Acoustisoft.
It's a great program for a very fair price.

--Ethan

Ethan, thank you for the advice. i just got that software, and am
looking into real bass trapping.

On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:12:36 -0500, "Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner
dot com wrote:

Robert,

would you say that proper treatment of my room could yield great
results?[its 12x14x10] is it possible to make any room sound great,
regardless of size?

"Great" is relative. Yes, with enough real bass trapping - not just a few
foam panels and foam corners - you can get very good results in a room that
size. It will never be a state of the art room no matter how much treatment
you apply. But you can definitely take it from "This sucks big time" to
"Wow, I can finally hear what I'm doing."

Also, I second the recommendation to get the ETF software from Acoustisoft.
It's a great program for a very fair price.

--Ethan

Robert,

i just got that software, and am looking into real bass trapping.

Did you happen to see the interview with Fran Manzella in this month's
TapeOp magazine? He agrees with what I've been saying for years: It's not
possible to have too much absorption at low frequencies. The more you add
the flatter the LF response becomes, and bass instruments sound tighter
because the modal ringing is reduced more and more.

--Ethan