Hi,

Anyone who knows the process to make piano paint finish yourself on DIY speakers?
Is it possible at all for an "amateur"?

Regards,
Bjørn Stensrud
Norway

Yes, I know how.

Yes, any amateur can do it with the right materials and lots of patience.

It will take too long to write is all down here, so I suggest buying a book
on lacquering and study it. This is not rocket science, just a slow &
careful process.

- FLINT

"Bjørn Stensrud" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Anyone who knows the process to make piano paint finish yourself on DIY
speakers?
Is it possible at all for an "amateur"?

Regards,
Bjørn Stensrud
Norway

Yep, it can be done. I researched it on google last year
but have yet to get around to building the speaker boxes.

Do a search for "piano paint finish" and browse the
results.
Here is a link to start with:

http://www.pianoworld.com/howdoi.htm



"flint" wrote in message
.. .
Yes, I know how.

Yes, any amateur can do it with the right materials and lots of patience.

It will take too long to write is all down here, so I suggest buying a
book
on lacquering and study it. This is not rocket science, just a slow &
careful process.

- FLINT

"Bjørn Stensrud" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Anyone who knows the process to make piano paint finish yourself on DIY
speakers?
Is it possible at all for an "amateur"?

Regards,
Bjørn Stensrud
Norway

While crossposting to rec.audio.pro and rec.audio.tech, "flint"
wrote:

Yes, I know how.

Yes, any amateur can do it with the right materials and lots of patience.

It will take too long to write is all down here, so I suggest buying a book
on lacquering and study it. This is not rocket science, just a slow &
careful process.

ISTR pianos are usually finished using the technique called "French
polish" - google for that and you should get info.
If you want good, reliable info, there are surely wood finishing
books that cover this technique.

- FLINT

"Bjørn Stensrud" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Anyone who knows the process to make piano paint finish yourself on DIY
speakers?
Is it possible at all for an "amateur"?

Regards,
Bjørn Stensrud
Norway






-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

Bjørn Stensrud wrote:

Anyone who knows the process to make piano paint finish yourself on DIY speakers?
Is it possible at all for an "amateur"?

It's just standard lacquer... but it's lots and lots of coats of lacquer,
in a VERY clean environment. Every time I have tried to shoot lacquer here,
I have always wound up with one or two little specks of dust making a splotch
in the finish here and there, even on small pieces.

You might ask your local auto body place if they are equipped to do it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Anyone who knows the process to make piano paint finish yourself on DIY speakers?
Is it possible at all for an "amateur"?

Lacquer is the amateur finish. All it takes is lots of time.

On 18 Dec 2003 20:27:16 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
It's just standard lacquer... but it's lots and lots of coats of lacquer,
in a VERY clean environment. Every time I have tried to shoot lacquer here,
I have always wound up with one or two little specks of dust making a splotch
in the finish here and there, even on small pieces.

That is why you rub out each coat. And why you rub out the finish
coat. The key to putting lots of lacquer on is to "rub out" (i.e. sand
or compound) out 99% of each layer, leaving only the straight, smooth,
shiny part.

You might ask your local auto body place if they are equipped to do it.

Most auto body pros use cross linked (epoxy) enamel these days.
Altho some new water based paints are coming in because of the
evil, toxic (will kill you) fumes of the cross linked expoxy stuff.

The reason hot rods always had lacquer was that anyone with lots of
time can do it. Spray it on, let it dry, rub out any problems. Repeat.
Sometimes 20 or more layers are needed. You don't even need a
fancy spray gun, just about any "production" gun will work.
You do want filtered, regulated, and non-oiled compressed air.

With enamel, one coat does it, or two if you are using clear coat.
WIth lacquer, I've never seen anyone use less than six or so coats.

Sadly, black is the worst color, it shows every flaw.

Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/prc/

"Pat Farrell" wrote in message
s.com...
On 18 Dec 2003 20:27:16 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
It's just standard lacquer... but it's lots and lots of coats of
lacquer,
in a VERY clean environment. Every time I have tried to shoot lacquer
here,
I have always wound up with one or two little specks of dust making a
splotch
in the finish here and there, even on small pieces.

That is why you rub out each coat. And why you rub out the finish
coat. The key to putting lots of lacquer on is to "rub out" (i.e. sand
or compound) out 99% of each layer, leaving only the straight, smooth,
shiny part.


What is best to rub it out with? Sanding paper? If so, the dry or wet kind
and what grade?

Thanks for your input guys,
Bjørn

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bjørn Stensrud wrote:

Anyone who knows the process to make piano paint finish yourself on DIY speakers?
Is it possible at all for an "amateur"?


It's just standard lacquer... but it's lots and lots of coats of lacquer,
in a VERY clean environment. Every time I have tried to shoot lacquer here,
I have always wound up with one or two little specks of dust making a splotch
in the finish here and there, even on small pieces.

You might ask your local auto body place if they are equipped to do it.
--scott
Anyone can do this given enough care and patience and there are numerous
effective, but alternative methods. It also helps to have a spray set
up and a machine for buffing.

You can get a similar finish with finishes other than traditional
lacquer. (lacquer can either poson you or blow you up if yo don't take
a few precautions).There are numerous waterborne lacquers that can be
applied and give you superb results. You can even brush it on (as
opposed to spraying) if you are patient. Principally, you will have to
smooth between couts and "rub-out" the final finish. Traditionally, the
topcoat would be rubbed out with pumice and then rottenstone and oil.
Automotive compounds, are easier to use and mayy woodworkers use them
with a high degree of success.

There are several experts who hang out at rec.woodworking who can give
you much more information or you can hop over to Jeff Jewitt's website
www.homesteadfinishing.com both for the forum's there and for the supplies.

You should probably start with a good book and Jeff's "Great Wood
Finishes"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
is one of the better ones. You can also take a look at Michael
Dresdner's New Wood Finishing Book
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846
and Bob Flexner's Understanding Wood Finishes
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...e&s=books&st=*

Terry Ilardi

"Pat Farrell" wrote in message ws.com...
Anyone who knows the process to make piano paint finish yourself on DIY speakers?
Is it possible at all for an "amateur"?

Lacquer is the amateur finish. All it takes is lots of time.

On 18 Dec 2003 20:27:16 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
It's just standard lacquer... but it's lots and lots of coats of lacquer,
in a VERY clean environment. Every time I have tried to shoot lacquer here,
I have always wound up with one or two little specks of dust making a splotch
in the finish here and there, even on small pieces.

That is why you rub out each coat. And why you rub out the finish
coat. The key to putting lots of lacquer on is to "rub out" (i.e. sand
or compound) out 99% of each layer, leaving only the straight, smooth,
shiny part.

You might ask your local auto body place if they are equipped to do it.

Most auto body pros use cross linked (epoxy) enamel these days.
Altho some new water based paints are coming in because of the
evil, toxic (will kill you) fumes of the cross linked expoxy stuff.

The "piano finish" cound on speakers, in fact, uses a special UV-
catalized laquer applied in a single coat under evry controlled
conditions. The process of applicying of the paint (most often done by
automated spray equipment) immersing the paint in intense ultraviolet
light to the cure it to the point where it is fully cured takes on the
order of a few seconds, during which there is no time for dust to settle
on it. There is no need to polish or otherwise mechanically manipulate
the surface since the finsihes are formulated to have the appropriate
surface tension while wet.

Now, the difference, physically, between "paint" (be it fancy cross-
linked epoxies or alkyd-based oil paints or acrylics) and real "laquer"
is that the former examples are all catalized/curing substances, while
the latter is solvent-based. When paint "dries" two things happen,
the "carrier" evaporates, leaving behind an emulsion of a catalizable
curable substance in qhich the pigment is suspended. That substance then
undergoes a chemical change with a catalyst (which could be oxygen from
the air) and hardens. The result is chemically different when dry then
when wet, and, if done properly, most or all bonding sites are occupied.
Applying a new layer will essentially start the process all over for that
new layer, but will not merge with the underlying layer in the same way
it bonds with itself.

COnventional laquer, on the other hand, is a solution of the solid laquer
in a solvent such as amyl acetate. It "dries" purely by solvent evaporation
and, if new solvent is applied, it can dissolve an existing dry layer. So,
when you apply another coat on top of an existing coat, the solvent cause
the underlying coats to dissolve partially and merge physically with the
new coat. You can apply umpteen laters of laquer and your always end up
with a single "coat," physically.

This becomes imprtant when it comes time to "level" and polish the surface.
With "paints", if you polish through one layer to the layer below, you
can actually see a change in the reflective properties as you break
through one layer to the next. The differen hardness through the layers
prevents you from every polishing the differences out.

However, since with laquer you only have one layer, no matter how many
times you applied a new coat, there is no boundary to break through,
and you get the same surface properties throught the material.

Laquer finishes are generally less durable but easier to repair: paints
are more flexible, less prone to crack, but harder to repair without
some visible artifacts.

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in message ...
Bjørn Stensrud wrote:

Anyone who knows the process to make piano paint finish yourself on DIY speakers?
Is it possible at all for an "amateur"?

It's just standard lacquer... but it's lots and lots of coats of lacquer,
in a VERY clean environment. Every time I have tried to shoot lacquer here,
I have always wound up with one or two little specks of dust making a splotch
in the finish here and there, even on small pieces.

If you're talking Yamaha 'shiny' finish - this is generally a
polyurethane finish, which can be very difficult to make look right
for an 'amateur'.

If you mean a Steinway 'satin' finish, this is typically laquered, as
mentioned in other posts. Difficult, but not impossible for an
'ameteur'. Paste wood filler and laquer sanding sealer can be used to
fill in grain. Sanding between coats is essential, as mentioned in
other posts. A coat of primer (for black or white), 2-3 coats of
sanding sealer, and 3-4 coats of finishing laquer will get you there.
Again, sanding with finer and finer grit between coats (start with 220
grit and work your way to 400-600 grit, and finally fine steel wool,
polishing compound, and paste wax).

This is general, of course, but maybe it will get you started. The
suggestion for finding a book on laquering is a good one. Or you
might talk to a local piano refinisher/rebuilder...

PS

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:48:40 +0100, "Bjørn Stensrud"
wrote:
What is best to rub it out with? Sanding paper? If so, the dry or wet kind
and what grade?

This gets into the same area as "best mic" and "best preamp" so be
carefull.

You can use sanding paper, something 800 or finer. Usually wet for the
last coats. Once it is nearly done, then you can use polishing
compound.

The bad news is that it is very easy to rub thru the finish.
Then you have to put on another layer. The good news is
that soon you'll become good at putting on layers.

As others have posted, the key to any paint finish is
the prep work. You have to have smooth, even
and properly filled surface before you start. Or you'll
use a lot of layers just getting a decent starting surface.

I do not keep up with the chemical voodoo that they use
for modern production finishing. The old hot rod lacquer
was simple and cheap (and deadly). The new stuff
goes on in far fewer coats, the cross linked stuff is
very cool. But the chemicals from ten years ago were
wicked evil toxic. The newest water borne stuff
is less evil. But you'll need to talk to someone who
knows more current stuff than me.

Guess that makes me a retro dude.

Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/prc/

Thanks alot for your input guys, you certainly have given me alot
to dig into, the response has been overwhelming! I will do some
more research and try to get some advice on good products to buy
from a spescialist paint store I've seen not far from here.

Certainly will present you with the results, good or bad ;-)

Thanks,
Bjørn

"Bjørn Stensrud" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Anyone who knows the process to make piano paint finish yourself on DIY
speakers?
Is it possible at all for an "amateur"?


Google for 'french polish'


geoff