A couple of things that bother me:

1. What are "microdynamics", exactly?
2. If you audition 2 speakers that sound different, but one of which
is known to have a perfectly flat frequency response, can you tell by
listening alone which one is the flat one?

Thanks,

Norm Strong

normanstrong wrote:
A couple of things that bother me:

1. What are "microdynamics", exactly?

A catch-all for any perceived sonic differences that cannot be
classified as frequency response differences. Not possible to correlate
to any measurements, and that is the beauty of using this term, since
you then can be as imprecise as you want when discussing microdynamics.

Of course, there is the complementary term "macrodynamics".

2. If you audition 2 speakers that sound different, but one of which
is known to have a perfectly flat frequency response, can you tell by
listening alone which one is the flat one?

I believe you need training, but it is possible. What you can do is to
train yourself to be familarize yourself with pink noise (or white
noise, too) played through very neutral earphones or speakers. Of
course, if the differences are only 1 dB or so, it gets very hard.

On the other hand, a several dB bump in the frequency response is
noticeable by a lot of experienced listeners without using pink noise.
For example, excess sibilance, or excess bass boom.

"chung" wrote in message
...

normanstrong wrote:

1. What are "microdynamics", exactly?

A catch-all for any perceived sonic differences that cannot be
classified as frequency response differences. Not possible to
correlate
to any measurements, and that is the beauty of using this term,
since
you then can be as imprecise as you want when discussing
microdynamics.

Of course, there is the complementary term "macrodynamics".

Perhaps complimentary, as in, "Wow, neat macrodynamics."

Yes, I see it can be very handy. I wonder what one says about
microdynamics. Are they high or low, too much or not enough, clean or
muddy, excessive or insufficient, loud or soft, better or worse?
Perhaps you could say that "the microdynamics are at least 6db too
low."

"normanstrong" wrote in message
news:ilBMc.23200$eM2.19184@attbi_s51...
"chung" wrote in message
...

normanstrong wrote:

1. What are "microdynamics", exactly?

A catch-all for any perceived sonic differences that cannot be
classified as frequency response differences. Not possible to
correlate
to any measurements, and that is the beauty of using this term,
since
you then can be as imprecise as you want when discussing
microdynamics.

Of course, there is the complementary term "macrodynamics".

Perhaps complimentary, as in, "Wow, neat macrodynamics."

Yes, I see it can be very handy. I wonder what one says about
microdynamics. Are they high or low, too much or not enough, clean or
muddy, excessive or insufficient, loud or soft, better or worse?
Perhaps you could say that "the microdynamics are at least 6db too
low."


No, you say "the amp seems to loose the microdynamic detail" or "the amp
has poor microdynamics". In general poor microdynamics and poor
transparency combined rob the reproduction of a sense of realism.

"No, you say "the amp seems to loose the microdynamic detail" or "the amp
has poor microdynamics". In general poor microdynamics and poor
transparency combined rob the reproduction of a sense of realism."

Then would you say this "difference" would be easy to spot if the
connections of amps were covered by a cloth, which would then require
listening alone as the basis of choice?

On 25 Jul 2004 14:59:24 GMT, "Harry Lavo" wrote:

"normanstrong" wrote in message
news:ilBMc.23200$eM2.19184@attbi_s51...

I wonder what one says about
microdynamics. Are they high or low, too much or not enough, clean or
muddy, excessive or insufficient, loud or soft, better or worse?
Perhaps you could say that "the microdynamics are at least 6db too
low."

No, you say "the amp seems to loose the microdynamic detail" or "the amp
has poor microdynamics". In general poor microdynamics and poor
transparency combined rob the reproduction of a sense of realism.

However, 'microdynamics' is just another of those bits of TAS
technobabble that have no meaning in the real physical world. Only in
loudspeakers does this effect show itself at all, and that's easily
detected by playing at low level, when many speakers seem to lose
their clarity due to excessive self-damping of heavy bass/mid cones.
Doesn't require any degree of 'Golden Ear' to detect this effect,
which was rife among the old Bextrene-coned speakers.

Sonically transparent amps at reasonable prices have been around for a
couple of decades - it takes heroic incompetence (or malice
aforethought) to make an amp which *does* have a distinctive 'sound'.
Mostly, they just sound like the input signal, despite the fanciful
prose of the ragazine reviewers, who *never* use DBTs - after all, who
will pay money to read an amp review that says "this amp sounds just
like all the other amps I reviewed this year"? Selling ragazines, not
providing information, is the name of that game.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
news:6SkNc.195388$XM6.131160@attbi_s53...
On 25 Jul 2004 14:59:24 GMT, "Harry Lavo" wrote:

"normanstrong" wrote in message
news:ilBMc.23200$eM2.19184@attbi_s51...

I wonder what one says about
microdynamics. Are they high or low, too much or not enough, clean or
muddy, excessive or insufficient, loud or soft, better or worse?
Perhaps you could say that "the microdynamics are at least 6db too
low."

No, you say "the amp seems to loose the microdynamic detail" or "the amp
has poor microdynamics". In general poor microdynamics and poor
transparency combined rob the reproduction of a sense of realism.

However, 'microdynamics' is just another of those bits of TAS
technobabble that have no meaning in the real physical world. Only in
loudspeakers does this effect show itself at all, and that's easily
detected by playing at low level, when many speakers seem to lose
their clarity due to excessive self-damping of heavy bass/mid cones.
Doesn't require any degree of 'Golden Ear' to detect this effect,
which was rife among the old Bextrene-coned speakers.

Sonically transparent amps at reasonable prices have been around for a
couple of decades - it takes heroic incompetence (or malice
aforethought) to make an amp which *does* have a distinctive 'sound'.
Mostly, they just sound like the input signal, despite the fanciful
prose of the ragazine reviewers, who *never* use DBTs - after all, who
will pay money to read an amp review that says "this amp sounds just
like all the other amps I reviewed this year"? Selling ragazines, not
providing information, is the name of that game.

If you want to hear a good example of the difference, play any well-recorded
(analog or dsd recorded) hybrid SACD disk on a good transparent SACD player
through a good, transparent sound system, and compare it to the CD layer of
same. You'll hear the same mix, the same audible frequency response, but a
remarkable difference in the sense of "realness" of the sound...and then
when you focus in on it you will realize that among other reasons, you are
hearing more of the dynamic minutiae at very low levels in the playing that
seems to be sonically "glossed over" in the CD layer.

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message news:6SkNc.195388$XM6.131160@attbi_s53...
On 25 Jul 2004 14:59:24 GMT, "Harry Lavo" wrote:

"normanstrong" wrote in message
news:ilBMc.23200$eM2.19184@attbi_s51...

I wonder what one says about
microdynamics. Are they high or low, too much or not enough, clean or
muddy, excessive or insufficient, loud or soft, better or worse?
Perhaps you could say that "the microdynamics are at least 6db too
low."

No, you say "the amp seems to loose the microdynamic detail" or "the amp
has poor microdynamics". In general poor microdynamics and poor
transparency combined rob the reproduction of a sense of realism.

However, 'microdynamics' is just another of those bits of TAS
technobabble that have no meaning in the real physical world. Only in
loudspeakers does this effect show itself at all, and that's easily
detected by playing at low level, when many speakers seem to lose
their clarity due to excessive self-damping of heavy bass/mid cones.

Excessive self damping? I personally never heard of it. A good driver
should have a whole lot of self damping, i.o.w. the diafragm surface
will only move air as stimulated but will not resonate on it's own.
Once a driver gets the air moving and it becomes sound, it's no longer
a matter for the loudspeaker. Suspension hysteresis could contribute
to differences at very low, almost undetectable levels, but nobody
listens at undiscernably low sound pressure levels. Seems to me the
ears would be the culprit, golden or not, since they are very prone to
frequency response changes at low sound pressure levels following the
Fletcher-Munsen curve.

Doesn't require any degree of 'Golden Ear' to detect this effect,
which was rife among the old Bextrene-coned speakers.

Sonically transparent amps at reasonable prices have been around for a
couple of decades - it takes heroic incompetence (or malice
aforethought) to make an amp which *does* have a distinctive 'sound'.
Mostly, they just sound like the input signal, despite the fanciful
prose of the ragazine reviewers, who *never* use DBTs - after all, who
will pay money to read an amp review that says "this amp sounds just
like all the other amps I reviewed this year"? Selling ragazines, not
providing information, is the name of that game.

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
news:6SkNc.195388$XM6.131160@attbi_s53...

However, 'microdynamics' is just another of those bits of TAS
technobabble that have no meaning in the real physical world. Only in
loudspeakers does this effect show itself at all, and that's easily
detected by playing at low level, when many speakers seem to lose
their clarity due to excessive self-damping of heavy bass/mid cones.


Can you name any speaker which truly shows its stuff at low volume? I've yet
to come across one. Nowadays I have to turn up the juice simply to know the
music is playing :-(

normanstrong wrote:
"chung" wrote in message
...

normanstrong wrote:

1. What are "microdynamics", exactly?

A catch-all for any perceived sonic differences that cannot be
classified as frequency response differences. Not possible to
correlate
to any measurements, and that is the beauty of using this term,
since
you then can be as imprecise as you want when discussing
microdynamics.

Of course, there is the complementary term "macrodynamics".

Perhaps complimentary, as in, "Wow, neat macrodynamics."

Yes, I see it can be very handy. I wonder what one says about
microdynamics. Are they high or low, too much or not enough, clean or
muddy, excessive or insufficient, loud or soft, better or worse?
Perhaps you could say that "the microdynamics are at least 6db too
low."


I think more microdynamics = better microdynamics in the reviews and
opinions that I find online. Lack of microdynamics = poor microdynamics.
So you want as much microdynamics as you get. I have never seen people
complaining about too much microdynamics .

Typically, according to reviews and audiophile opinions, you get more
microdynamics from SET's, vinyl LP's, expensive interconnects and
speaker cables, specialty power cords, green pens, etc. Digital
equipment and solid-state amps, perhaps with the exception of SACD gear,
tend to have much less microdynamics.

Since microdynamics are not measureable, you don't say that they are 6
dB too low. Just like you don't say a certain piece of gear is 3 dB more
liquid than another, or has 3 dB more inner detail than another. Try
correlating those qualities to measurements, and you run the risk of
being called "meter-readers", a definitely lower form of being in the
eyes of those who only decide with their ears .

1) Microdynamics are very, very small dynamics - but you knew that :=).
More to the point, when the Absolute Sound uses the term they seem to
mean that very small changes in amplitude of the signal SHOULD produce
very small changes in apparent loudness. If your equipment chain (or
some piece of it) isn't doing that then there will be less apparent
dynamic variation so the "true" impact of the music won't come through -
they think. Now, how micro a change is important I couldn't say. Surely
there's some theoretical level where the human hearing apparatus can't
tell the difference and somebody out there will post back and remind us.

2) If the difference is "big enough" enough one will sound sharp or flat
on some well known (to me) bit of music. If it's 2Hz off, probably not.
It's kind of like microherzics ...

normanstrong wrote:

A couple of things that bother me:

1. What are "microdynamics", exactly?
2. If you audition 2 speakers that sound different, but one of which
is known to have a perfectly flat frequency response, can you tell by
listening alone which one is the flat one?

Thanks,

Norm Strong

normanstrong wrote:
A couple of things that bother me:

1. What are "microdynamics", exactly?
2. If you audition 2 speakers that sound different, but one of which
is known to have a perfectly flat frequency response, can you tell by
listening alone which one is the flat one?

1. I have never heard a definition by engineers, so there probably is no
meaning at all. Quack terminology like "microdiodes".
2. A very good question. IME it is not possible to exactly get an even
frequency response just by listening and adjusting an EQ, wheras with a
microphone soundcard and software it is very easy. Our ears are not always
"in shape", and with moods also our hearing abilities are changing. It will
take time, but then you can distinguish between an uneven and a smooth
response.
Maybe it would be better to ask the question in this way:
Can we recognize a flat frequency response of a well adjusted speaker
against the raw and slightly peaky response of the same speaker unequalized?
*Yes*, but it will take time to evaluate. Pink noise gives the fastest
results when comparing, with music you will need to listen to a lot of
different pieces and the more subtle the differences are the longer it will
take.
When you use a measuring mike the adjustments are done much faster, and they
correspond with the hearing experience.
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

Ban wrote:

1. I have never heard a definition by engineers, so there probably is no
meaning at all. Quack terminology like "microdiodes".

A fellow I for whom I once repaired an amplifier insisted later that I had done
something to the "microwiring" that "destroyed" its sound.

It's difficult to be patient with things like that, especially after one does
a good job and they pay you for it. It happens all the time and is the
reason I made some changes to quit dealing with end users, which also
happens often.

wrote:

Ban wrote:

1. I have never heard a definition by engineers, so there probably is no
meaning at all. Quack terminology like "microdiodes".

A fellow I for whom I once repaired an amplifier insisted later that I had
done
something to the "microwiring" that "destroyed" its sound.

It's difficult to be patient with things like that, especially after one does
a good job and they pay you for it. It happens all the time and is the
reason I made some changes to quit dealing with end users, which also
happens often.

Good examples. But on the other hand, there is a term we use in autosound
evaluation that is useful ...... low level intelligibility and the quality
implementation of loudness compensation. IOW; can you hear rhe vocals and
acoustic instruments clearly and are the extremes of bass and treble still
audible?

These are clear constructs .....but microdynamics is bluster.

If it is used as I imagine it to be literally, then "microdynamics"
would simply be a small segment of the entire dynamic range. If you
can imagine a limitless dynamic range as being infinately wide, then a
"microdynamic" range might be a slice of that with infinite range in
itself. Just as things can be infinately larger, they can be
divided-up into infinately smaller segments. Both increase the range,
one by changing the scale. So it would actually be another way to
express the resolution of a system in terms of amplitude. More capable
systems have higher resolution and greater dynamic range. That does
not necessarily mean that you will like the sound of that system
better as it is just a measurement of a couple characteristics. One
thing that makes that complicated and so hard to describe is that
several things (maybe a lot more than several) interact and combine to
make that sound. Signal to noise ratio for instance affects this as it
can obscure resolution or enhance it by its value. You can also find
the term used in physics (if you thought my explanation was
complicated, read this: http://www.cmmp.ucl.ac.uk/~wah/md.html).
In regards to listening and flat response, I would have to say -
maybe. The reason being that even if your hearing allowed you to
realize which was which, the room affects the response so the
placement may make one more flat than the other in its location
regardless of which measures flat "anechoically" {(I don't believe
that I have just coined that term, but try and look it up.) Sometimes
a word may be created as it serves a purpose better than available
words. Our language would be very limited if we could not create new
words and of course technology and even the exploration of nature
require us to do this to describe what we see or experience. Look-up
microchip or computer in an old dictionary and see what you get, yet
you probably use these words frequently and without raising too many
eyebrows.} OK, I have managed to side-track myself; we were talking
about speaker frequency response. So a speaker that "sounds" flat in
its intended environment would provide a better sound for more
listeners regardless of how it measured. I don't think those two
things could be too far separated to keep it realistic however. People
hear differently, so what one person selects may not be what the
average or a different person would select as being flat. Training
could also help to narrow that field, but may not increase
appreciation as it does not affect hearing, just listening.
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"normanstrong" wrote in message
...
A couple of things that bother me:

1. What are "microdynamics", exactly?
2. If you audition 2 speakers that sound different, but one of
which
is known to have a perfectly flat frequency response, can you tell
by
listening alone which one is the flat one?

Thanks,

Norm Strong