Someone has offered me interconnects which apparently use the
standard cable of a certain manufacturer but the terminations
are soldered on rather than welded. The price is significantly
less than that for normal product cables. Can anyone comment on
whether these are likely to be legitimate and sold with the
approval of the manufacturer.
- As an aside, any comments on soldered vs. welded?
TIA,
- James

In article ,
James Harris no.email.please wrote:
As an aside, any comments on soldered vs. welded?

Some cars of the '70s used welded connectors for some applications. Can't
say they were any longer lasting than a more normal crimped one.
Interconnects are doing a far less arduous job than many connections
within your amp etc which seem to work perfectly ok with solder - provided
that soldered joint is correctly made.

--
*Why is it that most nudists are people you don't want to see naked?*

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"James Harris" no.email.please wrote in message
.. .
Someone has offered me interconnects which apparently use the
standard cable of a certain manufacturer but the terminations
are soldered on rather than welded. The price is significantly
less than that for normal product cables. Can anyone comment on
whether these are likely to be legitimate and sold with the
approval of the manufacturer.
- As an aside, any comments on soldered vs. welded?
TIA,
- James



depends on what Flux they used when soldered the connections, ie Rosin or
artificial.

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:04:59 GMT
"Alicia Tamblyn" wrote:

depends on what Flux they used when soldered the connections, ie Rosin or
artificial.

Yeah... if you listen to stuff at about 500GHz...

--
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Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:04:59 GMT
"Alicia Tamblyn" wrote:

depends on what Flux they used when soldered the connections, ie Rosin
or
artificial.

Yeah... if you listen to stuff at about 500GHz...

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with
ketchup.

reply was slightly tongue in cheek, but who knows with the gold plated mains
plug crowd....
I think the question was to do with the type make of cable and the non
standard,
compared to 'normal' expensive Hi-Fi construction methods;
ie; used by normal electrical engineering terminations people.

IMHO a home made cable made properly, is going to be better than a mass
market one with crap QC.
no matter how expensive the bought cable.
regards malcolm

--
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http://www.geocities.com/malc_hurn
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"James Harris" no.email.please wrote in message
.. .

Someone has offered me interconnects which apparently use the
standard cable of a certain manufacturer but the terminations
are soldered on rather than welded.

Soldering and crimping are the standard means of terminating cables. So, I
don't understand what could reasonably be meant in a general context by
saying "soldered on rather than welded". Welding connectors onto cables is
not the baseline methodology. Crimping and soldering are the baseline
technologies. It would make more sense to say: Welded rather than soldered
but that's not the situation.

The price is significantly less than that for normal product cables.

Standard audio cables are remarkably cheap to make if you make them in
volume. For example, standard 20' microphone cables are marvelously robust
high-tech wonders compared to your typical home audio RCA cable, yet in the
audio production market, they are frequently "given away" or sold quite
cheaply.

Can anyone comment on
whether these are likely to be legitimate and sold with the
approval of the manufacturer.

Cables that are soldered, crimped, or welded are IME equally legitimate.

BTW, a good job of crimping amounts to cold welding with the extra bonuses
of high mechanical strength and inherent disruption of oxide films or dirt
on the connector or the wire. Given my choice, I'd pick a well-crimped
connection over the other two, but I would not worry about a good job based
on the other two methods. Crimping and welding have the disadvantage of not
being as field-repairable as soldering.

- As an aside, any comments on soldered vs. welded?

Because of the nature of the application, all three methodologies are
equally viable and effective if they are done properly. Soldering is the
lowest-tech solution as it is the oldest technology and can be done with the
least costly, most available, most generalized tools. Soldering is still
perfectly acceptable for typical audio applications, if a bit time-consuming
and messy. Welding is probably the highest-tech approach, and requires the
most specialized tool.

In other applications, one method may be chosen over the other, based on
what's easiest to do. For example, it would usually be a little tough to
crimp all of the parts onto a circuit board, but welding and soldering are
viable alternatives. Mostly, circuit boards are still soldered.

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
BTW, a good job of crimping amounts to cold welding with the extra
bonuses of high mechanical strength and inherent disruption of oxide
films or dirt on the connector or the wire. Given my choice, I'd pick a
well-crimped connection over the other two, but I would not worry about
a good job based on the other two methods. Crimping and welding have the
disadvantage of not being as field-repairable as soldering.

The other beauty of crimping is that there is no weakening due to heat
close to the joint - perhaps not that important where the lead is
adequately clamped, though. However, *proper* crimping requires a usually
very expensive special tool, and frequently it is only of use for one
specific connector.

--
*Women like silent men; they think they're listening.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
BTW, a good job of crimping amounts to cold welding with the extra
bonuses of high mechanical strength and inherent disruption of oxide
films or dirt on the connector or the wire. Given my choice, I'd pick a
well-crimped connection over the other two, but I would not worry about
a good job based on the other two methods. Crimping and welding have the
disadvantage of not being as field-repairable as soldering.

The other beauty of crimping is that there is no weakening due to heat
close to the joint - perhaps not that important where the lead is
adequately clamped, though. However, *proper* crimping requires a usually
very expensive special tool, and frequently it is only of use for one
specific connector.

Agreed. The best crimpers are heavy, complex, costly, and provide lots of
mechanical advantage.

Here's the crimping tool of my dreams:

http://www.centralofficetools.com/in...D=32&do=detail

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

snip
Here's the crimping tool of my dreams:


http://www.centralofficetools.com/in...D=32&do=detail


Sounds like a demented food mixer!
-- J

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
BTW, a good job of crimping amounts to cold welding with the extra
bonuses of high mechanical strength and inherent disruption of oxide
films or dirt on the connector or the wire. Given my choice, I'd pick
a
well-crimped connection over the other two, but I would not worry
about
a good job based on the other two methods. Crimping and welding have
the
disadvantage of not being as field-repairable as soldering.

The other beauty of crimping is that there is no weakening due to heat
close to the joint - perhaps not that important where the lead is
adequately clamped, though. However, *proper* crimping requires a
usually
very expensive special tool, and frequently it is only of use for one
specific connector.

Agreed. The best crimpers are heavy, complex, costly, and provide lots of
mechanical advantage.

Here's the crimping tool of my dreams:

http://www.centralofficetools.com/in...D=32&do=detail



SNAKE OIL, SNAKE OIL




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In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Here's the crimping tool of my dreams:

http://www.centralofficetools.com/in...D=32&do=detail

Wow. I like the bit about taking all standard dies, but is there a
standard?

--
*Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Here's the crimping tool of my dreams:

http://www.centralofficetools.com/in...D=32&do=detail

Wow. I like the bit about taking all standard dies, but is there a
standard?

I've seen dies that worked with different makes and models of crimpers. I
guess that would constitute a standard...

Dave Plowman said:

The other beauty of crimping is that there is no weakening due to heat
close to the joint - perhaps not that important where the lead is
adequately clamped, though. However, *proper* crimping requires a usually
very expensive special tool, and frequently it is only of use for one
specific connector.

You're absolutely right. Then again, I've been surprised with what I've been
able to do with a pair of lineman's pliers. ;-)

Boon

Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:

BTW, a good job of crimping amounts to cold welding with the extra
bonuses of high mechanical strength and inherent disruption of oxide
films or dirt on the connector or the wire. Given my choice, I'd pick a
well-crimped connection over the other two, but I would not worry about
a good job based on the other two methods. Crimping and welding have the
disadvantage of not being as field-repairable as soldering.


The other beauty of crimping is that there is no weakening due to heat
close to the joint - perhaps not that important where the lead is
adequately clamped, though. However, *proper* crimping requires a usually
very expensive special tool, and frequently it is only of use for one
specific connector.


And a lot of elbow grease.

In article .net,
Joseph Oberlander wrote:
However, *proper* crimping requires a usually very expensive special
tool, and frequently it is only of use for one specific connector.


And a lot of elbow grease.

Depends on the crimping tool. Good ones designed for 'production' use will
have a greater mechanical advantage than the normal sort you'd get from an
electronics supplier. And can cost several hundred pounds.

--
*Give me ambiguity or give me something else.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
BTW, a good job of crimping amounts to cold welding with the extra
bonuses of high mechanical strength and inherent disruption of oxide
films or dirt on the connector or the wire. Given my choice, I'd pick a
well-crimped connection over the other two, but I would not worry about
a good job based on the other two methods. Crimping and welding have the
disadvantage of not being as field-repairable as soldering.

The other beauty of crimping is that there is no weakening due to heat
close to the joint - perhaps not that important where the lead is
adequately clamped, though.

I don't understand your reasoning.
Electrical copper is, or should be, in a completely annealed state. Heating
the copper up isn't going to hurt it.

I have found, however, that soldered cable connections frequently break from
strain, even if they are correctly soldered. Connections are frequently
repaired over again, due to inadequate strain relief on the center conductor
that appears in large diameter coaxial cable.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
BTW, a good job of crimping amounts to cold welding with the extra
bonuses of high mechanical strength and inherent disruption of oxide
films or dirt on the connector or the wire. Given my choice, I'd
pick a well-crimped connection over the other two, but I would not
worry about a good job based on the other two methods. Crimping and
welding have the disadvantage of not being as field-repairable as
soldering.

The other beauty of crimping is that there is no weakening due to
heat close to the joint - perhaps not that important where the lead
is adequately clamped, though.

I don't understand your reasoning.
Electrical copper is, or should be, in a completely annealed state.
Heating the copper up isn't going to hurt it.

Heating disturbs the wire's plastic insulation, which provides a significant
amount of strength and resistance to sharp bends.

I have found, however, that soldered cable connections frequently
break from strain, even if they are correctly soldered.

A crimped connection typically includes some of the plastic insulation,
which strengthens the connection and helps avoid sharp bending near the
connection.

Connections
are frequently repaired over again, due to inadequate strain relief
on the center conductor that appears in large diameter coaxial cable.

Happens with small coax and non-coaxial cables, as well.

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 07:01:38 -0500
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


Heating disturbs the wire's plastic insulation, which provides a
significant amount of strength and resistance to sharp bends.

Oh please, the last shred of insulation at the end of the wire provides
near zero additional strength, and besides:

1) The cable itself ought to be clamped before entering the strain
relief.
2) If you're melting the insulation you have either crap wire or no
soldering skill whatsoever.

I have *NEVER EVER* had the actual solder joint or copper wire near it
fail in any of the hundreds of leads I've made over the years. the only
failures I have ever had have been fracturing of the wire *after exiting
the strain relief*, and even then only after a good long service life.
(ok so the occasional one had a dry joint too, no-ones perfect)

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with
ketchup.

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Connections are frequently repaired over again, due to inadequate
strain relief on the center conductor that appears in large diameter
coaxial cable.

Happens with small coax and non-coaxial cables, as well.

I repair a lot of audio cables, and perhaps the most common is the thin
wire used for personal mics, which near always 'goes' just above the
connector. Sleeve it and it goes at the top of the sleeving. The cable is
often near impossible to replace completely as the mic is usually sealed,
so in practice it's best not to sleeve the connector cord grip at all, as
this involves shortening the cable more at the next repair.

--
*A cubicle is just a padded cell without a door.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article ,
Robert Morein wrote:
I don't understand your reasoning. Electrical copper is, or should be,
in a completely annealed state. Heating the copper up isn't going to
hurt it.

Don't know the theory, but if you flex a wire close to a soldered joint it
will always break at the joint. Perhaps it's a chemical reaction?

[Thinks.] But don't you have to quench copper if annealing?

--
*Never slap a man who's chewing tobacco *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message

In article ,
Robert Morein wrote:
I don't understand your reasoning. Electrical copper is, or should
be, in a completely annealed state. Heating the copper up isn't
going to hurt it.

Don't know the theory, but if you flex a wire close to a soldered
joint it will always break at the joint. Perhaps it's a chemical
reaction?

This happens with stranded wire because the stress tends to concentrate at
the point where the solder flow ends. I've pointed out other issues related
to insulation in another post.

[Thinks.] But don't you have to quench copper if annealing?

I don't think so. The usual rule is to quench to harden, and cool off slowly
to anneal.