Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

Bill McCullough wrote:
Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?



Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:26:02 GMT, trotsky wrote:



Bill McCullough wrote:
Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?



Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.

And what did the other guy think?

Did you tell him he could have saved $15,800 if he'd just bought a
couple of pairs of drivers from Madisound and had them do all the
design work, as you did? TIA.

--
td

The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:26:02 GMT, trotsky wrote:



Bill McCullough wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?



Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.


And what did the other guy think?


It was never discussed. There was a moment, it couldn't have been more
than a second, after the Dunlavys were reconnected where both of us were
in shock, but nothing was said after that.


Did you tell him he could have saved $15,800 if he'd just bought a
couple of pairs of drivers from Madisound and had them do all the
design work, as you did? TIA.


Dev, anytime you, your gay family memebers, or the effete, lily-livered
pansy ass regulars on this group want to team up and build a speaker,
then do it. It ain't never gonna happen.

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 00:35:58 GMT, trotsky wrote:

Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.


And what did the other guy think?


It was never discussed. There was a moment, it couldn't have been more
than a second, after the Dunlavys were reconnected where both of us were
in shock, but nothing was said after that.

He probably didn't want to hurt your feeling*, Gerg.

63s sounding like a million bucks over here in Merry Olde. Whatever
would you do with that kind of cash.

--
td

* (sic)

The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote:
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 00:35:58 GMT, trotsky wrote:


Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.


And what did the other guy think?


It was never discussed. There was a moment, it couldn't have been more
than a second, after the Dunlavys were reconnected where both of us were
in shock, but nothing was said after that.


He probably didn't want to hurt your feeling*, Gerg.

63s sounding like a million bucks over here in Merry Olde. Whatever
would you do with that kind of cash.



Guess who's drunk again!

"trotsky" wrote in message
...


The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:26:02 GMT, trotsky wrote:



Bill McCullough wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?



Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.


And what did the other guy think?


It was never discussed. There was a moment, it couldn't have been more
than a second, after the Dunlavys were reconnected where both of us were
in shock, but nothing was said after that.




That was probably his shock at your unbelievable gall in connecting such
**** to his system. :-(

"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...

"trotsky" wrote in message
...


The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:26:02 GMT, trotsky wrote:



Bill McCullough wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as
everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?



Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.


And what did the other guy think?


It was never discussed. There was a moment, it couldn't have been more
than a second, after the Dunlavys were reconnected where both of us were
in shock, but nothing was said after that.




That was probably his shock at your unbelievable gall in connecting such
**** to his system. :-(

He could be the only guy in the world who doesn't want to hurt Greg's
feelings.

Greg, he couldn't bear to tell you that they sound like mediocre little
speakers.

Bill McCullough asked:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

Greg "Trotsky" Singh, the slimy salesdroid behind the Jupiter Audio scam wrote:


Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.

Now there's an unbiased source of information! Maybe Stereophool should start
having the manufacturers review their own products. The bigger the ad, the
longer the review. ;-)

"trotsky" wrote in message
...


Bill McCullough wrote:
Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?



Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.

Nice unbiased reporting?

"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...

"trotsky" wrote in message
...


Bill McCullough wrote:
Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?



Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.

Nice unbiased reporting?

Remember, he was programmed at manufacture to be a sales droid. A droid's
brain has limited versatility.

If we were a little luckier, Princess Leila would pop out of his chest and
tell him to **** off.

Robert Morein wrote:
"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...

"trotsky" wrote in message
...


Bill McCullough wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?



Well, I was over at a guy's house today comparing them to his $16,000
Dunlavy SC-Vs. I liked the sound of the Europas better, and it wasn't
even as close as I thought it would be.


Nice unbiased reporting?


Remember, he was programmed at manufacture to be a sales droid. A droid's
brain has limited versatility.

If we were a little luckier, Princess Leila


Who?

On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp

--
td

In article z,
The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote:

On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp

That reminds me: Greg, are your speakers time-aligned?

Stephen

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 01:35:27 GMT, MiNE 109
wrote:

In article z,
The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote:

On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp

That reminds me: Greg, are your speakers time-aligned?

I think they're very expertly TV aligned.

--
td

"The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra" wrote in message
news:lj7upvsn0c0fa313d0vbqlcmehpve1t8g8@rdmzrnewst xt.nz...
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 01:35:27 GMT, MiNE 109
wrote:

In article z,
The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote:

On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp

That reminds me: Greg, are your speakers time-aligned?

I think they're very expertly TV aligned.

They are much-maligned.

The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote in message news:18ttpvg3ai23uheslofprcjqmuli9g2ugi@rdmzrnews txt.nz...
On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp


So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had the
speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed the
parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile" speaker
company. Is that about the size of it?

On 28 Oct 2003 18:49:46 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:

The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote in message news:18ttpvg3ai23uheslofprcjqmuli9g2ugi@rdmzrnews txt.nz...
On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp


So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had the
speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed the
parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile" speaker
company. Is that about the size of it?

Add a tanker ship full of snake oil, and you're right on target.

"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
om

So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had the
speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed the
parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile" speaker
company. Is that about the size of it?

Bingo!

Ironically, this is the same guy who has for years, been incessantly flaming
people who gave any credibility to technological approaches to audio. You
know, people who give any credibility to measurements and the like.

The means by which this crossover was designed by Madisound is 100% based on
measurements!

Madisound measured the on-axis frequency response and impedance curve of the
drivers, plugged it into a computer program, and out came component values.
Nothing wrong with this procedure, as far as it goes. However it does not
include things like the acoustical effects of the enclosure and the off-axis
response of the speaker drivers.

It is also true that while measurements can pick up some of the grosser
inadequacies of a loudspeaker's performance, the finest results are still
obtained by a highly experienced listener who tweaks the preliminary design.
This involves making small but well-informed adjustments to crossover parts
values and changing the design of the enclosure.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
om


So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had the
speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed the
parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile" speaker
company. Is that about the size of it?


Bingo!


Nice to see you've gone back to the realm of the trolls where you
belong, Arny. If it's so easy, why haven't you done it? With your
imagined metalurgy (sic) skills, you might be able to build your own
drivers--what's your excuse this time?

"trotsky" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
om


So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had
the speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed
the parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile"
speaker company. Is that about the size of it?

Bingo!

Nice to see you've gone back to the realm of the trolls where you
belong, Arny. If it's so easy, why haven't you done it?

Because I want something better than that, and it's readily available from
many other sources.

With your
imagined metalurgy (sic) skills, you might be able to build your own
drivers--what's your excuse this time?

I believe in the benefits of division of labor, and I recognize superior
expertise when I see it.

Bill McCullough wrote:

The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote in message news:18ttpvg3ai23uheslofprcjqmuli9g2ugi@rdmzrnews txt.nz...

On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:


Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp



So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had the
speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed the
parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile" speaker
company. Is that about the size of it?

This isn't a bad ideal. Many companies do the same thing - but they:
- do real research and testing
- pay more than $20-$30 for their drivers
- sell them for reasonable markups.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
nk.net

This isn't a bad ideal. Many companies do the same thing - but they:
- do real research and testing

Agreed.

- pay more than $20-$30 for their drivers

Surprisingly, mostly wrong when it comest o consumer speaker drivers. More
accurately stated: They buy their drivers in big enough quantities that
$20-30 gets them just about *anything they want*.

- sell them for reasonable markups.

Agreed.

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:01:46 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
ink.net

This isn't a bad ideal. Many companies do the same thing - but they:
- do real research and testing

Agreed.

- pay more than $20-$30 for their drivers

Surprisingly, mostly wrong when it comest o consumer speaker drivers. More
accurately stated: They buy their drivers in big enough quantities that
$20-30 gets them just about *anything they want*.

- sell them for reasonable markups.

Agreed.

If one agrees with your first statement, then one would have to
disagree with the second, since there are plenty of 2 way speakers for
$1600 or more (or 3 way speakers for $1800 or more) UNLESS you
stipulate that Greg's markup is ALSO reasonable.

One only has to look at Bugtussel as an example.

Arny Krueger wrote:


Surprisingly, mostly wrong when it comest o consumer speaker drivers. More
accurately stated: They buy their drivers in big enough quantities that
$20-30 gets them just about *anything they want*.


True. But, since he's paying full retail for his drivers - it's like
a big company paying $5.

His drivers could be a lot better for his prices. As if $100 more in
drivers wouldn't greatly improve the sound and long-term sales.

Bill McCullough wrote:
The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote in message news:18ttpvg3ai23uheslofprcjqmuli9g2ugi@rdmzrnews txt.nz...

On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:


Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp



So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had the
speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed the
parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile" speaker
company. Is that about the size of it?



Oh dear, another troll. If it's so easy, troll, then do it.

"trotsky" wrote in message
...


Bill McCullough wrote:
The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote in message
news:18ttpvg3ai23uheslofprcjqmuli9g2ugi@rdmzrnews txt.nz...

On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:


Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp



So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had the
speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed the
parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile" speaker
company. Is that about the size of it?



Oh dear, another troll. If it's so easy, troll, then do it.

Trolling is hard work. This is shooting ducks in a barrel.

Robert Morein wrote:
"trotsky" wrote in message
...


Bill McCullough wrote:

The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote in message

news:18ttpvg3ai23uheslofprcjqmuli9g2ugi@rdmzrnews txt.nz...

On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:



Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp



So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had the
speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed the
parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile" speaker
company. Is that about the size of it?



Oh dear, another troll. If it's so easy, troll, then do it.


Trolling is hard work. This is shooting ducks in a barrel.


What were the ducks doing in a barrel, Bob? I guess this is just
another hunch, but I'm betting your writing is none too good.

"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
om...
The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote in message
news:18ttpvg3ai23uheslofprcjqmuli9g2ugi@rdmzrnews txt.nz...
On 28 Oct 2003 11:04:49 -0800, (Bill McCullough)
wrote:

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

These are Gerg's own words on how he 'designed' the product. You
decide whether the speakers are worth $1600.

http://tinyurl.com/qnhp


So, it appears that this guy just ordered some speaker parts, had the
speaker supply house design the crossover (for a fee), screwed the
parts into a cabinet and BINGO!!! instant "audiophile" speaker
company. Is that about the size of it?

Yes. For $40.00 Madisound will design a 2 way xover for anybody. I would
recomend using better quality drivers, say Scan Speak or Focal. You can
check out the Driver for The Jupiter speakers on Madisound's
web site on their catalog page under Silver Flute.

"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...

"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
om...
The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote in message
news:18ttpvg3ai23uheslofprcjqmuli9g2ugi@rdmzrnews txt.nz...
[snip]

Yes. For $40.00 Madisound will design a 2 way xover for anybody. I would
recomend using better quality drivers, say Scan Speak or Focal. You can
check out the Driver for The Jupiter speakers on Madisound's
web site on their catalog page under Silver Flute.

You're kidding! I imagined that Greg spent at least a couple hundred bucks
on R&D.

So Jupiter's R&D budget is equivalent to a tank of gas and a Happy Meal?

Robert Morein wrote:
"Michael Mckelvy" wrote in message
...

"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
.com...

The Stainless Steel Boob Orchestra wrote in message

news:18ttpvg3ai23uheslofprcjqmuli9g2ugi@rdmzrne wstxt.nz...

[snip]

Yes. For $40.00 Madisound will design a 2 way xover for anybody. I would
recomend using better quality drivers, say Scan Speak or Focal. You can
check out the Driver for The Jupiter speakers on Madisound's
web site on their catalog page under Silver Flute.


You're kidding! I imagined that Greg spent at least a couple hundred bucks
on R&D.

So Jupiter's R&D budget is equivalent to a tank of gas and a Happy Meal?


Doesn't stop the speakers from sounding amazing, though. No shortage of
****heads on the 'net that are unable to appreciate good sound.

Michael Mckelvy wrote:


Yes. For $40.00 Madisound will design a 2 way xover for anybody. I would
recomend using better quality drivers, say Scan Speak or Focal. You can
check out the Driver for The Jupiter speakers on Madisound's
web site on their catalog page under Silver Flute.

Actually, I'd use either the Seas H282 or H512. Maybe a H627, which is clean
response-wise and shielded.

Shoot, for a $1600 price, I'd use a E017 woofer and E006 tweeter. Even on
paper, it's clear that the E006 will smoke the ones Greg is using. No contest.
Maybe a good ScanSpeak instead, like the 8554. It seems like it would be a
good match with the Seas E006.

That's $454.20 for the four drivers($38 with the above ScanSpeaks). Of course,
I'd put it in a pair of $300 mini-tower cabinets and put in two good crossovers.
Another $120 for the rest of it. $900 per pair my cost - $1200 yours.

$300 profit for asssembly and testing seems fair since it is direct-sales.
These two in combination should make a crushingly good speaker - and
easily compete with anything in the market for $1200. My goal would be to
source directly or wholesale eventually and get costs down to maybe $600.
End goal: Drivers - $325 Crossovers - $75 Cabinets/posts - $200

That would give me 100% profit. That seems a reasonable goal. I start
out at lower profits and expect to improve until I can do better thanks to
quantity and efficiency. Of course, I'd research it first. $700 may be a
more attainable goal, so up the price to $1400.

You use the best available parts and you get results that are good enough
to gloss over small problems until I refine the design.

"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
om...
Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?

I have heard rumors that they present an ignition hazard. Something
flammable inside the speaker.

Supposedly, they are a remarkable feat of engineering. The inventor, with no
prior experience, designed them on a Hooters napkin on a rainy afternoon. He
then verified with his own ears that they are the best speakers ever made.

When he gave the design to his builder, the pattern on the napkin was
incorporated. This accounts for the strange bulge at the back.

Robert Morein wrote:
"Bill McCullough" wrote in message
om...

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?


I have heard rumors that they present an ignition hazard. Something
flammable inside the speaker.

Supposedly, they are a remarkable feat of engineering. The inventor, with no
prior experience, designed them on a Hooters napkin on a rainy afternoon. He
then verified with his own ears that they are the best speakers ever made.

When he gave the design to his builder, the pattern on the napkin was
incorporated. This accounts for the strange bulge at the back.


How's your pancreas doin', Bob?

Are these things really as overpriced and under-engineered as everyone
says they are? I see that they sell on Audiogon for around $450 a
pair, is the $1600 MSRP a scam?




Oh my God, Bil, great work. Trotsky's a whack job, isn't he? A star for you.