As you know I have never believed very much in 5.1 audio, beileving
that one, two, or three channels were the right number. However 5.1 is
here like it or not. While a rack of McIntosh Industrial, Manley, or
Fairchild tube monoblocs would be attractive to look at, it really
isn't a practical idea. In fact the only practical power solution as I
see it for 5.1 is the active speaker, having its own active crossover
and multiple amps, and a professional input-AES/EBU digital or +4, 600
ohm balanced in.

Other than the Genelecs, what is out there, besides crappy Behringer
and Mackie prosumo products?

Take a look at the new NHT XDS system which is on its way very soon.

Kal

On 17 Feb 2005 19:00:26 -0800, wrote:

As you know I have never believed very much in 5.1 audio, beileving
that one, two, or three channels were the right number. However 5.1 is
here like it or not. While a rack of McIntosh Industrial, Manley, or
Fairchild tube monoblocs would be attractive to look at, it really
isn't a practical idea. In fact the only practical power solution as I
see it for 5.1 is the active speaker, having its own active crossover
and multiple amps, and a professional input-AES/EBU digital or +4, 600
ohm balanced in.

Other than the Genelecs, what is out there, besides crappy Behringer
and Mackie prosumo products?

As you know I have never believed very much in 5.1 audio, beileving
that one, two, or three channels were the right number.

Why would you belive this? Have you ever heard a 5.1 system set up
properly?

However 5.1 is
here like it or not. While a rack of McIntosh Industrial, Manley, or
Fairchild tube monoblocs would be attractive to look at, it really
isn't a practical idea.

Not evern one or two of them are practical in the view of most people,
they have tubes you know. As a great philosopher once said, "Toobs are
for Boobs.

In fact the only practical power solution as I
see it for 5.1 is the active speaker, having its own active crossover
and multiple amps, and a professional input-AES/EBU digital or +4, 600
ohm balanced in.


Other than the Genelecs, what is out there, besides crappy Behringer
and Mackie prosumo products?


Why do you feel they are crappy, have you heard them?
Perhaps your ears were damaged listening to those horn speakers. :-)

As you know I have never believed very much in 5.1 audio, beileving
that one, two, or three channels were the right number.

It is very nice for not a lot more money. Of course, you
should always buy a setup meant for stereo music first.
This means full-range speakers in front that don't need
a subwoofer at all, for one(of course, this means a bigger
amplifier as well, but solutions exist liek Outlaw Audio
and at the higher end, Bryston makes a superb multi-channel
amplifier that really is like 5-7 monoblocks in a chassis
No corners cut, twenty year warranty, even on used ones.

In fact the only practical power solution as I
see it for 5.1 is the active speaker, having its own active crossover
and multiple amps, and a professional input-AES/EBU digital or +4, 600
ohm balanced in.

Passive works fine if you get the right speakers and enough
power to drive them.

The KRK Expose speakers I mentioned are $1859.00 per pair, self
amplified, with 120 watts for the tweeter and 160 watts for the midbass.

wrote in message
ups.com

As you know I have never believed very much in 5.1 audio, believing
that one, two, or three channels were the right number.

I've long preferred 2 channels (personal listening) or 3 channels
(listening with others or in a larger room). That translates into earphones,
headphones or near-field monitors for personal/critical listening, and 3
channels for listening with others.

However 5.1 is here like it or not.

A lot of prerecorded material is available for this style of listening.

While a rack of McIntosh Industrial, Manley, or
Fairchild tube monoblocs would be attractive to look at, it really
isn't a practical idea.

It's outdated crap, anyhow. Bottles! Yecch!

In fact the only practical power solution as I
see it for 5.1 is the active speaker, having its own active crossover
and multiple amps, and a professional input-AES/EBU digital or +4, 600
ohm balanced in.

Iconoclasm, anybody?

Other than the Genelecs, what is out there, besides crappy Behringer and
Mackie prosumo products?

Those are really pretty good speakers, but they aren't the measure of the
marketplace. Golden Ear Bigotry (as taught by Grand Dragon of the Klan Of
The Golden Ear, John Atkinson), anybody?

Other providers of active speakers include JBL Pro, NHT Pro, KRK, Blue Sky,
Edirol, Tannoy... Paradigm had some, but they seem to have kinda gone away.
Probably didn't sell because of the well-known Golden Ear bias against
active speakers. After all, it can't be good audio if the speakers and the
amps come from separate vendors. This ignores the extreme synergy that can
be obtained when you deliver a highly-integrated speaker/amp/crossover
package.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message


Correction:

Paradigm had some, but they seem to have
kinda gone away. Probably didn't sell because of the well-known
Golden Ear bias against active speakers. After all, it can't be good
audio unless the speakers and the amps come from separate vendors. This
ignores the extreme synergy that can be obtained when you deliver a
highly-integrated speaker/amp/crossover package.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Those are really pretty good speakers, but they aren't the measure of the
marketplace. Golden Ear Bigotry (as taught by Grand Dragon of the Klan Of
The Golden Ear, John Atkinson), anybody?


Now you are equating JA with a KKK leader!
Are you going to do that in the debate, in
JA's face, in front of an audience?



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"Clyde Slick" wrote

Those are really pretty good speakers, but they aren't
the measure of the marketplace. Golden Ear Bigotry
(as taught by Grand Dragon of the Klan Of The Golden
Ear, John Atkinson), anybody?


Now you are equating JA with a KKK leader!
Are you going to do that in the debate, in
JA's face, in front of an audience?

How do you think Arny got the expense paid trip in the
first place... by adhering to the norms of polite social
intercourse ?

"Powell" wrote in message

"Clyde Slick" wrote

Those are really pretty good speakers, but they aren't
the measure of the marketplace. Golden Ear Bigotry
(as taught by Grand Dragon of the Klan Of The Golden
Ear, John Atkinson), anybody?

Now you are equating JA with a KKK leader!

Well, I couldn't do the FAS schtick again, could I? However if you remember
that one, you've got the measure of how long it took Atkinson to finall get
what I was saying way back then. We're talking years here, folks.

Are you going to do that in the debate, in
JA's face, in front of an audience?

Only if he asks for it.

How do you think Arny got the expense paid trip in the
first place... by adhering to the norms of polite social
intercourse ?

You know, after seemingly thousands of false starts, Powell finally made a
post that shows some sign of actual insight!

Good job, Powell! Now see if you can do it again, little man.

Arny Krueger wrote:

snipped


Golden Ear Bigotry (as taught by Grand Dragon of the Klan Of
The Golden Ear, John Atkinson), anybody?




That's quite an image you conjured up there, Arny. I have visions of
Atkinson in a wizard's hat (think Mickey Mouse in "Fantasia"), holding
forth before the grateful masses.

wrote in message
oups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:


Golden Ear Bigotry (as taught by Grand Dragon of the Klan Of
The Golden Ear, John Atkinson), anybody?

That's quite an image you conjured up there, Arny.

The pointy shoes seem to fit.

I have visions of Atkinson in a wizard's hat (think Mickey Mouse in
"Fantasia"), holding
forth before the grateful masses.

See it live at HE 2005!

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
ups.com

As you know I have never believed very much in 5.1 audio, believing
that one, two, or three channels were the right number.

I've long preferred 2 channels (personal listening) or 3 channels
(listening with others or in a larger room). That translates into
earphones, headphones or near-field monitors for personal/critical
listening, and 3 channels for listening with others.

However 5.1 is here like it or not.

A lot of prerecorded material is available for this style of listening.

While a rack of McIntosh Industrial, Manley, or
Fairchild tube monoblocs would be attractive to look at, it really
isn't a practical idea.

It's outdated crap, anyhow. Bottles! Yecch!

In fact the only practical power solution as I
see it for 5.1 is the active speaker, having its own active crossover
and multiple amps, and a professional input-AES/EBU digital or +4, 600
ohm balanced in.

Iconoclasm, anybody?

Other than the Genelecs, what is out there, besides crappy Behringer and
Mackie prosumo products?

Those are really pretty good speakers,

I agree. I don't know a better value in loudspeaker/amplifier combination
than Mackie HR824. Excellent sound, "almost" full-range extension with real
recorded material. Not particularly difficult to place for good results. 6
of these with a Talon sub make up one of the better multichannel/theaters
I've ever heard. Have a pair in the bedroom.

but they aren't the measure of the marketplace. Golden Ear Bigotry (as
taught by Grand Dragon of the Klan Of The Golden Ear, John Atkinson),
anybody?


This, OTOH, is idiotically paranoid. I would primarily blame the nonexistent
marketing effort to consumers.

Other providers of active speakers include JBL Pro, NHT Pro, KRK, Blue
Sky, Edirol, Tannoy... Paradigm had some, but they seem to have kinda
gone away. Probably didn't sell because of the well-known Golden Ear bias
against active speakers. After all, it can't be good audio if the speakers
and the amps come from separate vendors. This ignores the extreme synergy
that can be obtained when you deliver a highly-integrated
speaker/amp/crossover package.

Adam makes excellent monitors, but they are fairly expensive.

Cheers,

Margaret

"Arny Krueger" wrote

Those are really pretty good speakers, but they aren't the measure of the
marketplace. Golden Ear Bigotry (as taught by Grand Dragon of the Klan Of
The Golden Ear, John Atkinson), anybody?


Gotta hand it to you Arny..... snotty right up to the last minute. I have
no
doubt that you'll be snotty in person...... and proud of it. This behavior
won't get your butt kicked, but it doesn't seem very Christian. Don't you
want to represent your faith at a higher standard?

wrote:
In fact the only practical power solution as I
see it for 5.1 is the active speaker, having its own active crossover
and multiple amps, and a professional input-AES/EBU digital or +4, 600
ohm balanced in.

Other than the Genelecs, what is out there, besides crappy Behringer
and Mackie prosumo products?

Meridian Audio:
http://www.meridian-audio.com/welcome.htm
http://www.meridian-audio.com/m_bro_spk.htm

They are expensive.

--
http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/

..pt is Portugal| `Whom the gods love die young'-Menander (342-292 BC)
Europe | Villeneuve 50-82, Toivonen 56-86, Senna 60-94

On 18 Feb 2005 14:43:40 -0000, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

wrote:
In fact the only practical power solution as I
see it for 5.1 is the active speaker, having its own active crossover
and multiple amps, and a professional input-AES/EBU digital or +4, 600
ohm balanced in.

Other than the Genelecs, what is out there, besides crappy Behringer
and Mackie prosumo products?

Meridian Audio:
http://www.meridian-audio.com/welcome.htm
http://www.meridian-audio.com/m_bro_spk.htm

I've heard that Paradigm's Active/40s sound good, but I haven't heard
them.

Also, although I haven't heard the recent iterations of their
products, I WAS impressed when I heard NHT's powered speaker from
about 4 years ago (maybe the A4?), when Chris Byrne auditioned them
for me at the Nashville NAAM show. Even in the open floor area, they
had a great sound.

Here's their current line:

http://www.nhtpro.com/2004/products/...=1&SubjectID=1

dave weil a écrit :

I've heard that Paradigm's Active/40s sound good, but I haven't heard
them.

Once again you are speaking of something that you don't know.
Google is free access, you know. ;-)

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:16:37 +0100, Lionel
wrote:

dave weil a écrit :

I've heard that Paradigm's Active/40s sound good, but I haven't heard
them.

Once again you are speaking of something that you don't know.
Google is free access, you know. ;-)

Actually, I know that I've heard that they are good, directly from
someone who has heard them, so I thought I'd pass it along.

Sorry if it bothered you.

dave weil a écrit :
On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:16:37 +0100, Lionel
wrote:


dave weil a écrit :


I've heard that Paradigm's Active/40s sound good, but I haven't heard
them.

Once again you are speaking of something that you don't know.
Google is free access, you know. ;-)


Actually, I know that I've heard that they are good, directly from
someone who has heard them, so I thought I'd pass it along.

Yeah the friend of the friend of your best friend...
This always provide interesting opinions.

This is the way that Middius use to tastes the wine. Note
that he is a real wine connoisseur... via proxies !

:-D

Sorry if it bothered you.

Don't be sorry, but worry... Seems that you bothered
everybody since nobody but me answers you anymore. :-(

dave weil a écrit :
On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:16:37 +0100, Lionel
wrote:


dave weil a écrit :


I've heard that Paradigm's Active/40s sound good, but I haven't heard
them.

Once again you are speaking of something that you don't know.
Google is free access, you know. ;-)


Actually, I know that I've heard that they are good, directly from
someone who has heard them, so I thought I'd pass it along.

Yeah the friend of the friend of your best friend...
....This always provides interesting opinions.

This is the way that Middius uses to taste the wines. Note
that he is a real wine connoisseur... via proxies !


Sorry if it bothered you.

Don't be sorry, but worry... Seems that you bothered
everybody since nobody but me answers you anymore. :-(

"Lionel" wrote in message

dave weil a écrit :

I've heard that Paradigm's Active/40s sound good, but I haven't heard
them.

Nousaine has a collection of Active 20s and 40s that I've listened to for
hours and hours. He uses them over his house-devouring monster subwoofer.
Yes, they sound GOOD! I don't know if Atkinson can even understand what this
system is about.

IME, if its made by Paradigm, its probabaly pretty good. I have an old pair
of Phantoms that still sound very good. I should listen to them more often!

Once again you are speaking of something that you don't know.

Yes, I laugh about Weil's comments about NHTPro A4s. Search google, there
is no such thing. There are such things as NHTPro M00, which have 4"
woofers. Dave should know which NHT Pro speakers I have. Hint: they don't
have mere 4" woofers. ;-)

Google is free access, you know. ;-)

Ironic how vocal George and Art are about my alleged class envy when we see
them giving a pass to Weil. Weil bought his pass with them by giving them
the RAO anti-audio online figurative fellatio that they crave.

Arny Krueger a écrit :

Yes, I laugh about Weil's comments about NHTPro A4s. Search google, there
is no such thing. There are such things as NHTPro M00, which have 4"
woofers. Dave should know which NHT Pro speakers I have. Hint: they don't
have mere 4" woofers. ;-)

Just an other Weil's pathetic attempt to come back in the
circus...

Dave is this kind of guy who always knows somebody who knows
a man who has the answer to the question.
He belongs to the famous intellectual and cultural third
circle... "Has been" who have never been. :-(

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 05:47:46 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Lionel" wrote in message

dave weil a écrit :

I've heard that Paradigm's Active/40s sound good, but I haven't heard
them.

Nousaine has a collection of Active 20s and 40s that I've listened to for
hours and hours. He uses them over his house-devouring monster subwoofer.
Yes, they sound GOOD! I don't know if Atkinson can even understand what this
system is about.

Well, there's confirmation that my friend might have been correct.

I love the fact that Lionel acts as Arnold's conduit to address
anything that I say but yet pretends not to "answer me anymore".

IME, if its made by Paradigm, its probabaly pretty good. I have an old pair
of Phantoms that still sound very good. I should listen to them more often!

Hmmmm, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned them so that the OP couldn't
check them out. Then Lionel would have been really happy.

Once again you are speaking of something that you don't know.

Yes, I laugh about Weil's comments about NHTPro A4s. Search google, there
is no such thing. There are such things as NHTPro M00, which have 4"
woofers. Dave should know which NHT Pro speakers I have. Hint: they don't
have mere 4" woofers. ;-)

After using Google to check, turns out it was the A-20. I DID put a
question mark there because I couldn't remember the name of the
speaker that I auditioned 4 years ago. Of course, the A-20 doesn't
have a 4-inch speaker.

No, I don't know which NHT speakers you own, Arnold. I don't think
that they're powered speakers though.

Google is free access, you know. ;-)

Ironic how vocal George and Art are about my alleged class envy when we see
them giving a pass to Weil. Weil bought his pass with them by giving them
the RAO anti-audio online figurative fellatio that they crave.

Oral sex fixation noted.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Ironic how vocal George and Art are about my alleged class envy when we
see them giving a pass to Weil. Weil bought his pass with them by giving
them the RAO anti-audio online figurative fellatio that they crave.


Dave appears to be very comfortable with his circumstances.



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Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro wrote:

wrote:

In fact the only practical power solution as I
see it for 5.1 is the active speaker, having its own active crossover
and multiple amps, and a professional input-AES/EBU digital or +4, 600
ohm balanced in.


Other than the Genelecs, what is out there, besides crappy Behringer
and Mackie prosumo products?


Meridian Audio:
http://www.meridian-audio.com/welcome.htm
http://www.meridian-audio.com/m_bro_spk.htm

They are expensive.

JBL Pro, Tannoy, and many others also exist. I do find it odd,
though, since you could easily buy a superb amplifier to
drive them and save a lot of money as well.

http://www.earthshakingmusic.com/krk...-SkipRecords=0

The above will take you to a description of the KRK Expose E8T powered
speaker. This puppy has 120 watt amp on the tweeter and 160 watts for
the woofer using Focal/JRM drivers. You could do a lot worse.

How about some Dynaudio pro speakers?

wrote in message
ups.com...
As you know I have never believed very much in 5.1 audio, beileving
that one, two, or three channels were the right number. However 5.1 is
here like it or not. While a rack of McIntosh Industrial, Manley, or
Fairchild tube monoblocs would be attractive to look at, it really
isn't a practical idea. In fact the only practical power solution as I
see it for 5.1 is the active speaker, having its own active crossover
and multiple amps, and a professional input-AES/EBU digital or +4, 600
ohm balanced in.

I find your comments surprising. The idea that active speakers become more
practical as the number of channels grows seems to me counterintuitive.
Every active speaker has to have its own power supply, not to mention wall
outlet. Whereas large numbers of passive speakers can be driven from
multiple amplifiers sharing the same power supply and only a single power
outlet.

It's true that there are advantages in tailoring the amplifier design
specifically to the speaker, but these advantages are there regardless of
the number of channels.

Norm Strong

Dynaudio's Air 6 would do the trick dontcha think?

Best price I've seen is 1595.00 per pair.

Dynaudio's Air 6 would do the trick dontcha think?


Best price I've seen is 1595.00 per pair.
OOPS! make that per speaker.

wrote in message
ups.com...
As you know I have never believed very much in 5.1 audio, beileving
that one, two, or three channels were the right number. However 5.1 is
here like it or not. While a rack of McIntosh Industrial, Manley, or
Fairchild tube monoblocs would be attractive to look at, it really
isn't a practical idea. In fact the only practical power solution as I
see it for 5.1 is the active speaker, having its own active crossover
and multiple amps, and a professional input-AES/EBU digital or +4, 600
ohm balanced in.

Other than the Genelecs, what is out there, besides crappy Behringer
and Mackie prosumo products?

http://www.hafler.com

A highly respected company, the chief engineer of which is Jim Strickland,
creator of the Acoustat electrostat speakers and Transnova amplifiers.

The founder was David Hafler (dec), who invented the Ultralinear tube
circuit.

Now that you've trashed perfectly fine sounding pro speakers and been
made aware of several others, what do you have to say for yourself.
OOPS would be a good start.

"Mike McKelvy" wrote in message
oups.com
Now that you've trashed perfectly fine sounding pro speakers and been
made aware of several others, what do you have to say for yourself.
OOPS would be a good start.

Cal is like Atkinson - he never admits that he ever made a mistake.

"Arny Krueger" wrote
"Mike McKelvy" wrote in message
oups.com
Now that you've trashed perfectly fine sounding pro speakers and been
made aware of several others, what do you have to say for yourself.
OOPS would be a good start.

Cal is like Atkinson - he never admits that he ever made a mistake.


now that was funny

Mike McKelvy wrote:
Now that you've trashed perfectly fine sounding pro speakers and been
made aware of several others, what do you have to say for yourself.
OOPS would be a good start.

Mackie and Behringer are pretty rough. What do you want me to say,
they aren't? They are low cost prosumo products for project studios.
The others you've mentioned may be very fine, they aren't cheap. I
asked what was out there, people mentioned a few things. Where did i go
wrong?

wrote in message
oups.com

Mike McKelvy wrote:
Now that you've trashed perfectly fine sounding pro speakers and been
made aware of several others, what do you have to say for yourself.
OOPS would be a good start.

Mackie and Behringer are pretty rough.

Actually, they are both pretty smooth. However, being near field monitors
they have a certain slightly forward balance that some audiophiles might
confuse with roughness.

What do you want me to say, they aren't?

Indict yourself as you wish, Cal.

They are low cost prosumo products for project studios.

The Behringers are low cost. The Mackies are mid-priced. Since Cal can't
distinguish the markets they adress, perhaps he's suffering from low
resoluation perceptions. Besides, nowhere is it written in stone that low
cost or mid priced products have have sonic problems.

The others you've mentioned may be very fine, they aren't cheap.

Some are no more expensive than the Mackies. Some are quite clearly targeted
at the prosumer market.

I asked what was out there, people mentioned a few things. Where did I go
wrong?

Bad attitude and inability to recognize widely-resepected products like the
HR 824s

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com

Mike McKelvy wrote:
Now that you've trashed perfectly fine sounding pro speakers and been
made aware of several others, what do you have to say for yourself.
OOPS would be a good start.

Mackie and Behringer are pretty rough.

Actually, they are both pretty smooth. However, being near field monitors
they have a certain slightly forward balance that some audiophiles might
confuse with roughness.

Makes me think of the NHT Pro amp that can switch from nearfield to
midfield settings. It kinda takes the edge off if one is more than a
couple of feet away from the speakers.

Stephen

"MINe 109" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com

Mike McKelvy wrote:
Now that you've trashed perfectly fine sounding pro speakers and
been made aware of several others, what do you have to say for
yourself. OOPS would be a good start.

Mackie and Behringer are pretty rough.

Actually, they are both pretty smooth. However, being near field
monitors they have a certain slightly forward balance that some
audiophiles might confuse with roughness.

Makes me think of the NHT Pro amp that can switch from nearfield to
midfield settings. It kinda takes the edge off if one is more than a
couple of feet away from the speakers.

Equalization switches are a common feature in near field monitors, including
NHTPro A10 and A20 as well as both of the models that Cal trashed:

http://www.mackie.com/home/showimage.../HR824Rear.JPG

http://www.behringer-download.com/B2..._ENG_Rev_A.pdf
page labelled 6 in the PDF

This is a strong advantage of tailoring the electronics to match the
speaker, whether as a separate amplifier or an electronics package built
into the speaker. The Berhinger and Mackie speakers that Cal trashed also
have active crossovers.

Actually I have auditioned both the Mackies and the Behringers. The
Behringers are as bad or worse than the Yamaha NS-10s. The Mackies
seemed a little better, and probably represent good value for their
market, but they are a long way from good serious sound in a proper
room. Nearfields in general are appropriate for what they are designed
for, and that is not full field listening. I find nearfield listening
awkward and I think the popularity of bridge mounted nearfield
monitors, nearly universal in home/project studios and disappointingly
so in "real" facilities, to be a fundamental problem in the pursuit of
making good records. That's another story.

Pro products designed for mastering and mixdown purposes specifically,
tube or otherwise, are a different line of product (and a much rarer
one) than pro products designed for sound reinforcement, MI, stage
monitoring, project studio, or contractor install work. Products
designed for the latter uses are not necessarily to be barred from
consideration for serious home use-indeed they may work better than
pure-consumer products-but they always involve different tradeoffs and
so are not that likely to be competitive.

A good example would be a power amp. Maybe you build power amps and
have a pet design with some patents or a McGuffin like Power Guard.
Perhaps you build a 2x300 watt stereo power amp for touring sound use.
Since it goes in a rack and gets hauled around, it's mechanically
toughened, compact, and has a powerful fan to keep it cool even if only
the front of the rack is exposed. That fan makes it too loud for my
living room, I absolutely guarantee. I spent a lot of effort dropping
the noise floor. That same electrical design might work great for me if
you made a variant with huge finned heatsinks facing outward and no
fan. It would weigh more, it wouldn't be as amenable to getting hauled
around and bumped and dropped, Perhaps you designed a quieter fan in
attempt to "cross over', but what you got was an amp that runs hotter
on the road and fails more often.

wrote in message
oups.com

Actually I have auditioned both the Mackies and the Behringers.

Auditions are only as good as the environment and the person doing the
listening.

The Behringers are as bad or worse than the Yamaha NS-10s.

Tacit admission that Cal's either talking out of the back of his neck, or
that his ears are shot above 5 KHz.

The Mackies
seemed a little better, and probably represent good value for their
market, but they are a long way from good serious sound in a proper
room.

It's true that both the Mackies and the Behrs lack the bottles that are part
of Cal's prerequisite for what he thinks is good sound.

Nearfields in general are appropriate for what they are designed
for, and that is not full field listening.

Tacit admission that Cal has never been allowed to use the facilities of
these speakers for tailoring their response to various listening situations.

I find nearfield listening
awkward and I think the popularity of bridge mounted nearfield
monitors, nearly universal in home/project studios and
disappointingly so in "real" facilities, to be a fundamental problem
in the pursuit of making good records. That's another story.

Suggests that Cal doesn't appreciate the difference between tracking, mixing
and mastering.

Pro products designed for mastering and mixdown purposes specifically,
tube or otherwise, are a different line of product

They can be, but they don't have to be. For example using Magnepans for
mastering is thinkable, but far less so for tracking.

(and a much rarer
one) than pro products designed for sound reinforcement, MI, stage
monitoring, project studio, or contractor install work.

Including studio speakers in a list with SR speakers shows how out-to-lunch
Cal is.

Products
designed for the latter uses are not necessarily to be barred from
consideration for serious home use-indeed they may work better than
pure-consumer products-but they always involve different tradeoffs and
so are not that likely to be competitive.

Cal's one of the few people I know who could say something this odd with a
straight face.


A good example would be a power amp. Maybe you build power amps and
have a pet design with some patents or a McGuffin like Power Guard.
Perhaps you build a 2x300 watt stereo power amp for touring sound use.
Since it goes in a rack and gets hauled around, it's mechanically
toughened, compact, and has a powerful fan to keep it cool even if
only the front of the rack is exposed. That fan makes it too loud for
my living room, I absolutely guarantee.

in Cal's world all cooling fans sound the same - loud.

I spent a lot of effort
dropping the noise floor. That same electrical design might work
great for me if you made a variant with huge finned heatsinks facing
outward and no fan. It would weigh more, it wouldn't be as amenable
to getting hauled around and bumped and dropped, Perhaps you designed
a quieter fan in attempt to "cross over', but what you got was an amp
that runs hotter on the road and fails more often.

It takes a real bozo to confuse the design of SR amps with the design of
amps for studio monitoring