| Home |
| Search |
| Today's Posts |
|
|
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
I just want accurate-sounding music!
OK, I'm reading posting after posting, web page after web page,
regarding what's the best equipment for music, what's best for home theater, what's best for surround. Everyone has a different opinion or a favorite brand -- most recommend going to a hifi dealer and trying out different speakers and amps. All I want is to hear music as if the musicians were standing in front of me playing their instruments. I want a recording of a symphony orchestra to sound like I'm seated in the theater. I want a recording of a jazz combo to sound like I'm seated in the front row of the nightclub. I want a Norah Jones CD to sound like she's sitting across the room and singing to me. I want a recording of me playing the trombone to sound like me playing the trombone. I want live music to sound like live music. I know that a lot depends on the recording technique, but let's set that aside for now and assume as perfect a recording as possible. So... is this a lot to ask? Isn't it really the *only* thing to ask? Is sound reproduction that subjective that no one can agree on a particular system that will do this? Or maybe, are we talking about a $100,000 system here to be able to be that accurate? All I want to know is, with my measly $500-$750 (or less?), isn't there a specific receiver/speaker combination that will produce what I want to hear? Or am I just searching in vain at this price point? Maybe I'm just too idealistic and the ability to reproduce live music is too expensive to consider. Thanks, Bryan |
|
#2
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
#3
|
|||
|
|||
|
Hi Stephen, thank you. I guess you answered my most pressing question
-- is it possible to reproduce live music accurately for $500-$750 -- and the answer seems to be "no." So, that being said, I suppose I am now asking for a specific recommendation. Or is sound reproduction so subjective that anyone's recommendation outside my own experience is irrelevant? Maybe I need to find someone with similar musical tastes (live jazz, classical, acapella vocals, theater) on a similar budget. I guess a good followup question would be -- can you buy sound reproduction components based on specs alone and expect the result to match the specs? I'm thinking that if that's true, then Consumer Reports recommendations are as good as any, and better than a salesman's. Thank you again! Bryan |
|
#4
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
#5
|
|||
|
|||
|
Thank you, Dave -- I appreciate your help. I think you're right about
buying speakers "on spec," since so much is dependent on the cabinet design and materials, the driver quality, the crossovers, etc. and of course all of this changes from model to model and year to year. Geez, you'd figure that after over 100 years of sound reproduction, someone would have figured out the "perfect" speaker design by now and there would only be one choice in speakers. :-) I just looked at Cambridge Soundworks web site. They have a Cambridge SoundWorks Ensemble 208 Subwoofer/Satellite Speaker Package for $399. It's in my price range and has decent reviews. Bose has the Acoustimass 3 Series IV for a little less. I already have three BIC Venturi V52 bookshelf speakers that I could use for rear and center channels, so I figure I only need the sub and mains. Hopefully the BICs being as accurate as they are will match the rest of the system. Even BIC America has a three-piece set, but I don't know how good they are. I don't know, it seems so confusing for such a simple goal. ;-) I usually listen to acoustic or vocal music at "natural" sound level - meaning at or maybe a little above the dB level of a live performance. The system will be installed in my home office, which is carpeted and is about a rectagular 19'x23'. So I'm thinking I don't need a lot in the way of power - maybe 50W/channel or so. I'll need to buy a surround receiver/amp, DVD player and the three-piece speaker set. I'd spend the most on the speaker set, maybe even postponing the other components until later to spend as much as needed on good speakers. Well, that's my story. Thank you for your opinions! Bryan |
|
#6
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
#7
|
|||
|
|||
|
Hey, thank you for that reference to stereophile.com! I found a
reviewer there that I immediately liked. Robert Reina reviews the PSB Image B25 speakers and he listens to and appreciates the same type of music I do -- woohoo! Now this is what I'm looking for in a speaker: "The entire midrange was dead neutral, liquid, and holographic-but when this was combined with an extraordinary level of detail resolution, perfectly articulate transients, and a broad, continuous, organic presentation of the entire dynamic envelope, the overall sonic picture inspired me to strip-mine my music collection for well-recorded acoustic instruments." Cool -- my kind of guy. :-) This makes me want to go out and buy these speakers sight-unseen. I hope he's not a salesman for PSB. hehe If you read the rest of his review, he tests the speakers on mostly jazz piano, vocals and classical. And even some Sade -- nice; my kind of music. I only hope his reference system isn't a $20K setup and that I can use speakers like these with a modest receiver -- maybe in the $200-$400 range. It even sounds like these speakers don't really need a subwoofer for the kind of music I like. Bryan |
|
#8
|
|||
|
|||
|
wrote in message oups.com... Hey, thank you for that reference to stereophile.com! I found a reviewer there that I immediately liked. Robert Reina reviews the PSB I was going to suggest PSB to you and now you mentioned it. That is the way I went. Years ago I bought book-shelf PSB's(Alpha series) and they are beyond description. They also came in at a tidy $200 Canadian! Just last month I bought the older model 5T tower Psb's and the matching centre channel. They have brought out their new models with better drivers etc....and as a result, I got what I think is a good speaker pair for $699CDN. Problem is I have yet to use them. Anyways, you can't go wrong with PSB and if you have any questions just phone them up and they take real time to help you out. Good Luck Tec |
|
#9
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
#10
|
|||
|
|||
|
wrote in message ups.com... Hi Stephen, thank you. I guess you answered my most pressing question -- is it possible to reproduce live music accurately for $500-$750 -- and the answer seems to be "no." So, that being said, I suppose I am now asking for a specific recommendation. Or is sound reproduction so subjective that anyone's recommendation outside my own experience is irrelevant? Maybe I need to find someone with similar musical tastes (live jazz, classical, acapella vocals, theater) on a similar budget. I guess a good followup question would be -- can you buy sound reproduction components based on specs alone and expect the result to match the specs? I'm thinking that if that's true, then Consumer Reports recommendations are as good as any, and better than a salesman's. Quite true. You will not be able to transport yourself aurally to the recording venue for any amount of money. At least not with the recordings that are currently for sale. The closest you can come is a binaural recording played back through headphones. Such recordings exist--but just barely. You can do a lot worse than following Consumer Reports recommendations. Norm Strong |
|
#11
|
|||
|
|||
|
wrote in message ups.com... I guess a good followup question would be -- can you buy sound reproduction components based on specs alone and expect the result to match the specs? No. I'm thinking that if that's true, then Consumer Reports recommendations are as good as any, and better than a salesman's. Oh god no. Consumer Reports is good for some things, but not what you're looking for. Unless you truly can't spend more than $700 for your entire system. Then they might actually be reasonable. |
|
#12
|
|||
|
|||
|
wrote in message
oups.com OK, I'm reading posting after posting, web page after web page, regarding what's the best equipment for music, what's best for home theater, what's best for surround. Everyone has a different opinion or a favorite brand -- most recommend going to a hifi dealer and trying out different speakers and amps. All I want is to hear music as if the musicians were standing in front of me playing their instruments. In general this is mission impossible. There are a number of prerequisites for this experience, and unless you make your own recordings, you don't have them all. I want a recording of a symphony orchestra to sound like I'm seated in the theater. I want a recording of a jazz combo to sound like I'm seated in the front row of the nightclub. I want a Norah Jones CD to sound like she's sitting across the room and singing to me. I want a recording of me playing the trombone to sound like me playing the trombone. I want live music to sound like live music. I know that a lot depends on the recording technique, but let's set that aside for now and assume as perfect a recording as possible. It's not a matter of the perfection of the recording, its a matter of taste and circumstance. So... is this a lot to ask? In specific cases, probably not. In general, its a lot to ask for. Isn't it really the *only* thing to ask? Not everybody thinks that "in-your-face" is where the musicians should be. In many cases, an acoustic perspective of the musicians "in-your-face", spread from left to right and front to back is something that never happened in the real world. IOW, the musicians never all played together in the same room. Even if they did, they may were probably not set out the way you would like them to be. Is sound reproduction that subjective that no one can agree on a particular system that will do this? In many senses, yes. First, we would need some kind of agreement about what should be reproduced. Or maybe, are we talking about a $100,000 system here to be able to be that accurate? I suspect that it might not take that much money to do it well enough, if enough basic parameters could be agreed-upon. All I want to know is, with my measly $500-$750 (or less?), isn't there a specific receiver/speaker combination that will produce what I want to hear? I seriously doubt it. For one thing the original recording would be very important. I don't think there is any extant standard recording format that would in general do what you seem to want. About as close as we might be able to come to what you seem to want, would probably require a new recording format that would include one or more discrete channels for every sound source. For example, there might be 4, 5, or 6 channels for every musician - the sounds the musician makes in the four, five or six ordinal directions. Then there would have to be a device in your stereo that modified the sound in those channels in such a way that each would sound appropriate to your chosen location, given your choices about how the musicians would be arranged in some virtual space. It is possible that there might be as few as one channel per musician or small group of musicians of a kind, and the rest might be synthesized. |
|
#13
|
|||
|
|||
|
Hehe... Arny, I like you; you're a literal as I am. :-) You're right,
to get every nuance of say, a solo violinist, you would want several microphones picking up all of the hamonics, the player's breathing, the rustle of his/her clothing, the fingers on the fretboard. Of course in a live performace you'd have to be nose-to-nose with the player to hear all that. OK OK, I give... let's get realistic. :-) I don't want "in-your-face" as much as I want "in the audience." I think what I meant to say by "assume as perfect a recording as possible" is just that. Assume that I have found the best recording available of what I want to listen to. This may be a 5.1 Dolby DVD-Audio recording, or a mono vinyl LP (yes, I still have my Dual 502 turntable!). I don't want the sound system to add or subtract anything from what the recording engineers created. How's that? :-) Are there any web sites that have suggestions/recommendations of setups for people who desire to hear a certain kind of sound, hopefully bracketed by budget levels? Thank you MINe for the stereophile.com suggestion. Bryan |
|
#14
|
|||
|
|||
|
wrote in message
oups.com Hehe... Arny, I like you; you're a literal as I am. :-) You're right, to get every nuance of say, a solo violinist, you would want several microphones picking up all of the hamonics, the player's breathing, the rustle of his/her clothing, the fingers on the fretboard. Actually the several mics would be more likely required to capture the fact that the energy given off by a violin player varies considerably along the ordinal directions. Of course in a live performace you'd have to be nose-to-nose with the player to hear all that. ???? OK OK, I give... let's get realistic. :-) I don't want "in-your-face" as much as I want "in the audience." My point is that what you really want is what you want, when you want it. One time you may want in-your-face and another time you may want in-audience-over-here and then the next time you might want in-the-audience over there. The methodology I outlined might possibly deliver such a thing. It seems to me that little else would. I think what I meant to say by "assume as perfect a recording as possible" is just that. Assume that I have found the best recording available of what I want to listen to. This may be a 5.1 Dolby DVD-Audio recording, or a mono vinyl LP (yes, I still have my Dual 502 turntable!). I don't want the sound system to add or subtract anything from what the recording engineers created. How's that? :-) Without begging the point, what you might want is a system largely composed near-field monitors. Are there any web sites that have suggestions/recommendations of setups for people who desire to hear a certain kind of sound, hopefully bracketed by budget levels? In all of our dreams... Thank you MINe for the stereophile.com suggestion. Stereophile is overtly dedicated to audio's high end, as in the high priced segment of any particular product segment. IOW in the produce segment area of near-field-monitors they have posted reviews of expensive near-field monitors (e.g. Genelec), but not good inexpensive ones (e.g. Behringer). |
|
#15
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com Hehe... Arny, I like you; you're a literal as I am. :-) You're right, to get every nuance of say, a solo violinist, you would want several microphones picking up all of the hamonics, the player's breathing, the rustle of his/her clothing, the fingers on the fretboard. Actually the several mics would be more likely required to capture the fact that the energy given off by a violin player varies considerably along the ordinal directions. Of course in a live performace you'd have to be nose-to-nose with the player to hear all that. ???? OK OK, I give... let's get realistic. :-) I don't want "in-your-face" as much as I want "in the audience." My point is that what you really want is what you want, when you want it. One time you may want in-your-face and another time you may want in-audience-over-here and then the next time you might want in-the-audience over there. The methodology I outlined might possibly deliver such a thing. It seems to me that little else would. I think what I meant to say by "assume as perfect a recording as possible" is just that. Assume that I have found the best recording available of what I want to listen to. This may be a 5.1 Dolby DVD-Audio recording, or a mono vinyl LP (yes, I still have my Dual 502 turntable!). I don't want the sound system to add or subtract anything from what the recording engineers created. How's that? :-) Without begging the point, what you might want is a system largely composed near-field monitors. Are there any web sites that have suggestions/recommendations of setups for people who desire to hear a certain kind of sound, hopefully bracketed by budget levels? In all of our dreams... Thank you MINe for the stereophile.com suggestion. Stereophile is overtly dedicated to audio's high end, as in the high priced segment of any particular product segment. IOW in the produce segment area of near-field-monitors they have posted reviews of expensive near-field monitors (e.g. Genelec), but not good inexpensive ones (e.g. Behringer). Note that High End doesn't necessarily mean best. If it did things like the Orion speaker system from Linkwitz Labs would be getting reviewed. |
|
#16
|
|||
|
|||
|
Michael McKelvy wrote: "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com Hehe... Arny, I like you; you're a literal as I am. :-) You're right, to get every nuance of say, a solo violinist, you would want several microphones picking up all of the hamonics, the player's breathing, the rustle of his/her clothing, the fingers on the fretboard. Actually the several mics would be more likely required to capture the fact that the energy given off by a violin player varies considerably along the ordinal directions. Of course in a live performace you'd have to be nose-to-nose with the player to hear all that. ???? OK OK, I give... let's get realistic. :-) I don't want "in-your-face" as much as I want "in the audience." My point is that what you really want is what you want, when you want it. One time you may want in-your-face and another time you may want in-audience-over-here and then the next time you might want in-the-audience over there. The methodology I outlined might possibly deliver such a thing. It seems to me that little else would. I think what I meant to say by "assume as perfect a recording as possible" is just that. Assume that I have found the best recording available of what I want to listen to. This may be a 5.1 Dolby DVD-Audio recording, or a mono vinyl LP (yes, I still have my Dual 502 turntable!). I don't want the sound system to add or subtract anything from what the recording engineers created. How's that? :-) Without begging the point, what you might want is a system largely composed near-field monitors. Are there any web sites that have suggestions/recommendations of setups for people who desire to hear a certain kind of sound, hopefully bracketed by budget levels? In all of our dreams... Thank you MINe for the stereophile.com suggestion. Stereophile is overtly dedicated to audio's high end, as in the high priced segment of any particular product segment. IOW in the produce segment area of near-field-monitors they have posted reviews of expensive near-field monitors (e.g. Genelec), but not good inexpensive ones (e.g. Behringer). Note that High End doesn't necessarily mean best. It certainly does includes the best but it also includes plenty below it. If it did things like the Orion speaker system from Linkwitz Labs would be getting reviewed. Nonsnense. What is high end and what is reviewed are independent subjects. Scott Wheeler |
|
#17
|
|||
|
|||
|
wrote in message oups.com... Are there any web sites that have suggestions/recommendations of setups for people who desire to hear a certain kind of sound, hopefully bracketed by budget levels? The Absolute Sound. Both magazines have yearly "Recommended Components" issues, for most price ranges. |
|
#18
|
|||
|
|||
|
"jeffc" wrote in message
wrote in message oups.com... Are there any web sites that have suggestions/recommendations of setups for people who desire to hear a certain kind of sound, hopefully bracketed by budget levels? The Absolute Sound. Both magazines have yearly "Recommended Components" issues, for most price ranges. The problem is that both lists are essentially anti-science fiction. |
|
#19
|
|||
|
|||
|
Arny prefers using only genuine science fiction as a guide. If people
like Arny would forget about audio and work on warp drive technology we'd all be ahead. I want to fly to Alpha Centauri and back in my lifetime, I'd give every vacuum tube on earth for that. |
|
#20
|
|||
|
|||
|
Just a quick link to those of you who are wondering the same things I
am. At stereophile.com, there was a vote taken that answers my question about whether live performance can be reproduced faithfully. The question was: "Have you ever heard an audio system that faithfully reproduced the sound of real, live musicians? What was it?" There are some insightful and informative answers he http://cgi.stereophile.com/cgi-bin/showvote.cgi?393 Enjoy! |
|
#21
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:59:23 -0800, bryan_cass wrote:
OK, I'm reading posting after posting, web page after web page, regarding what's the best equipment for music, what's best for home theater, what's best for surround. Everyone has a different opinion or a favorite brand -- most recommend going to a hifi dealer and trying out different speakers and amps. All I want is to hear music as if the musicians were standing in front of me playing their instruments. I want a recording of a symphony orchestra to sound like I'm seated in the theater. I want a recording of a jazz combo to sound like I'm seated in the front row of the nightclub. I want a Norah Jones CD to sound like she's sitting across the room and singing to me. I want a recording of me playing the trombone to sound like me playing the trombone. I want live music to sound like live music. I know that a lot depends on the recording technique, but let's set that aside for now and assume as perfect a recording as possible. snip May I make a suggestion? Before you start to spend a lot of money on equipment go out and listen to as much *live* music as possible. You can't aim for a target that you can't see. My personal recommendation is to listen to a reasonable valve amp into some sensitive speakers. It may not measure well, and may not produce truly "realistic" sound, but for sheer "exuberance" in music some of these setups take a lot of beating. This isn't just bull... Low power amps into sensitive speakers (especially horns) can give almost frighteningly "immediate" results (I nearly wrote "frighteningly realistic" but that would have been inaccurate given the title of this thread!) - even if there isn't a lot of bass and the top end is ragged! -- Mick (no M$ software on here... :-) ) Web: http://www.nascom.info Web: http://projectedsound.tk |
|
#22
|
|||
|
|||
|
Thanks Mick. I think I have enough listening experience already to
know what I like. I have played trombone and tuba in concert bands for about 12 years now. I have played trombone in orchestra pits for musicals over the past 8 years. I played trombone and sang in a big band from 1995 to 2003. I played piano and sang for our church from 1998 to 2003. I have been in marching bands and orchestras since jr. high school and played piano since I was 9. Not to mention just playing instruments at home as well, and of course attending professional concerts. I'm 43, and I want to finally buy a sound system that I can immerse myself in, rather than making price the driving factor as it has since my first Realistic stereo in 1975. I want to enjoy my hearing while I still can! ;-) Bryan |
|
#23
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:12:25 -0800, bryan_cass wrote:
Thanks Mick. I think I have enough listening experience already to know what I like. I have played trombone and tuba in concert bands for about 12 years now. I have played trombone in orchestra pits for musicals over the past 8 years. I played trombone and sang in a big band from 1995 to 2003. I played piano and sang for our church from 1998 to 2003. I have been in marching bands and orchestras since jr. high school and played piano since I was 9. Not to mention just playing instruments at home as well, and of course attending professional concerts. I'm 43, and I want to finally buy a sound system that I can immerse myself in, rather than making price the driving factor as it has since my first Realistic stereo in 1975. I want to enjoy my hearing while I still can! ;-) Lol! Yep - I can go with that... :-) Thanks for the link (next thread) by the way, there were some interesting responses. I have tried recording my own acoustic guitar playing & playing it back as a test but never really satisfactorily. Ok, my gear is very limited but I don't think we can actually obtain *realism*. We can get *apparent realism* though - sometimes. I'm not sure that you can just nip to the shop and buy a system that does what you want though. Specifications don't tell you how it sounds; the shop has different accoustics to your listening room; you had something different for breakfast. I dunno, there are a thousand reasons why sometimes you get that WOW! feeling and other times it just doesn't work. It certainly isn't just based on price, the number of watts or the THD% though. It seems to work better when you are relaxed, in a comfortable chair and holding a glass of something warming though. :-) If you appreciate brass (dunno why I should think that...) then *please* try to listen to a valve amp as I suggested. I think you'll like it! I think the most startled that I have been by audio gear was when someone switched a radio chat show on in a large shop (many years ago now). The loudspeakers were the Quad "electrostatic radiators". The sheer clarity had me looking round for the speaker for a few moments... I also once heard a demo at a hi-fi show in a hotel. The Linn setup there was terrible and did no justice to the gear at all. What stole the show for me was a system using "The Rock" turntable and some very nice (expensive) valve monoblock amps (I've a feeling that they may have been Krell). The demonstrators had stuck to fairly simple material (wisely IMHO) and the effect was stunning. Unfortunately I have no Idea what the rest of the stuff was now! -- Mick (no M$ software on here... :-) ) Web: http://www.nascom.info Web: http://projectedsound.tk |
|
#24
|
|||
|
|||
|
OK, I'll bite. What's a valve amp? Sounds like some kind of
water-cooled equipment. :-) I wasn't considering components, if that's what that is, nor tube equipment. I don't think I really want to sink a lot of time, energy and capital into finding the perfect sound system. So I gather from this thread that we really can't reproduce "realism" consistently, so just find something that you're satisfied with. Maybe in 100 more years or so, technology will have advanced far enough to be able to consistently do what I'm asking for. Just tell your holodeck "I want Diana Krall to sing to me" and it happens. I think I'm living in the wrong century. ;-) Anyhow, since this is an opinion group, I'll give my opinion about music reproduction. I think we are so used to heavily processed, and/or badly recorded or played-back music, that we as a culture have almost forgotten what live music sounds like. Live music was the *only* music until about 100 years ago. But we've become so removed from the performance that we're satisfied with the electronic version. Geez, even live concerts are heavily processed though electronics. That's OK I guess... until holodecks are invented anyway. :-) All of this stems just from my own preference to acoustic instruments and vocals. I understand that people like synthesized music -- and after all, music is music no matter what the medium. I suppose I'm just complaining that those who like synthesized music have an easier time than I finding a satisfying sound system. ;-) Bryan |
|
#25
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 06:20:08 -0800, Bryan wrote:
OK, I'll bite. What's a valve amp? Sounds like some kind of water-cooled equipment. :-) I wasn't considering components, if that's what that is, nor tube equipment. I don't think I really want to sink a lot of time, grin Ahh... you arn't in the UK are you? lol! Sorry, Bryan, its a "tube" amp. They don't *have* to be super-expensive and esoteric you know! Some of them are actually cheaper than many transistorised (or IC'd...) amps. They are not "clean" amps. They introduce distortion. However, they tend to do this in a manner that sometimes makes the music sound "smooth" and as if it has real dynamics. Some say that this isn't "hi-fi", but it certainly makes for comfortable listening. energy and capital into finding the perfect sound system. So I gather from this thread that we really can't reproduce "realism" consistently, so just find something that you're satisfied with. Maybe in 100 more years or so, technology will have advanced far enough to be able to consistently do what I'm asking for. Just tell your holodeck "I want Diana Krall to sing to me" and it happens. I think I'm living in the wrong century. ;-) erm... maybe... :-) With a suitable system it is *easier* to fool your ears - making it easier to convince yourself that you are listening to reality. You don't really need to obtain realism in order to believe that you are hearing it. The brain is quite willing to fill in the missing info and "correct" what it gets from the ears with enough lies to make it believable... At least for some of the time! Anyhow, since this is an opinion group, I'll give my opinion about music reproduction. I think we are so used to heavily processed, and/or badly recorded or played-back music, that we as a culture have almost forgotten what live music sounds like. Live music was the *only* music until about 100 years ago. But we've become so removed from the performance that we're satisfied with the electronic version. Geez, even live concerts are heavily processed though electronics. That's OK I guess... until holodecks are invented anyway. :-) All of this stems just from my own preference to acoustic instruments and vocals. I understand that people like synthesized music -- and after all, music is music no matter what the medium. I suppose I'm just complaining that those who like synthesized music have an easier time than I finding a satisfying sound system. ;-) It isn't easy finding music with *no* electronics added nowadays, is it? There is usually a PA at least. Don't listen to the stereo system - listen to the music. -- Mick (no M$ software on here... :-) ) Web: http://www.nascom.info Web: http://projectedsound.tk |
|
#26
|
|||
|
|||
|
"mick" wrote in message news 
: On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:12:25 -0800, bryan_cass wrote:: : Thanks Mick. I think I have enough listening experience already to know : what I like. I have played trombone and tuba in concert bands for about : 12 years now. I have played trombone in orchestra pits for musicals over : the past 8 years. I played trombone and sang in a big band from 1995 to : 2003. I played piano and sang for our church from 1998 to 2003. I have : been in marching bands and orchestras since jr. high school and played : piano since I was 9. Not to mention just playing instruments at home as : well, and of course attending professional concerts. I'm 43, and I want : to finally buy a sound system that I can immerse myself in, rather than : making price the driving factor as it has since my first Realistic stereo : in 1975. *I want to enjoy my hearing while I still can! ;-) *Hmm, well, indeed. http://orkestengehoor.nl/achtergrond.../r816_3_ra.pdf is a dutch report from 2003 : brass section players are on average exposed to 88 dbA SPL dayly average over a 260 day working year . K. Kähäri (Linholmen Development, Göteborg) reported in 2003 that only 26 % of classical orchestra performers had no hearing impairements ; within the remaining 74 %: 41 % suffered diminished hearing capabilities 43 % suffered tinnitus 39 % suffered hyperacuses Rudy |
|
#27
|
|||
|
|||
|
I can vouch for that. I'm not a professional musician and I only play
maybe once or twice a week. But when I played in a big band in front of the trumpet section, I actually wore earplugs sometimes because it hurt! I do have tinnitus (ringing in the ears), but it doesn't seem to interfere with "normal" hearing ... yet. Ruud Broens wrote: "mick" wrote in message news
: On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:12:25 -0800, bryan_cass wrote:: : Thanks Mick. I think I have enough listening experience already to know : what I like. I have played trombone and tuba in concert bands for about : 12 years now. I have played trombone in orchestra pits for musicals over : the past 8 years. I played trombone and sang in a big band from 1995 to : 2003. I played piano and sang for our church from 1998 to 2003. I have : been in marching bands and orchestras since jr. high school and played : piano since I was 9. Not to mention just playing instruments at home as : well, and of course attending professional concerts. I'm 43, and I want : to finally buy a sound system that I can immerse myself in, rather than : making price the driving factor as it has since my first Realistic stereo : in 1975. *I want to enjoy my hearing while I still can! ;-) *Hmm, well, indeed. http://orkestengehoor.nl/achtergrond.../r816_3_ra.pdf is a dutch report from 2003 : brass section players are on average exposed to 88 dbA SPL dayly average over a 260 day working year . K. K=E4h=E4ri (Linholmen Development, G=F6teborg) reported in 2003 that only 26 % of classical orchestra performers had no hearing impairements ; within the remaining 74 %: 41 % suffered diminished hearing capabilities 43 % suffered tinnitus 39 % suffered hyperacuses =20 Rudy |
|
#28
|
|||
|
|||
|
wrote in message oups.com... OK, I'm reading posting after posting, web page after web page, regarding what's the best equipment for music, what's best for home theater, what's best for surround. Everyone has a different opinion or a favorite brand -- most recommend going to a hifi dealer and trying out different speakers and amps. All I want is to hear music as if the musicians were standing in front of me playing their instruments. I want a recording of a symphony orchestra to sound like I'm seated in the theater. I want a recording of a jazz combo to sound like I'm seated in the front row of the nightclub. I want a Norah Jones CD to sound like she's sitting across the room and singing to me. I want a recording of me playing the trombone to sound like me playing the trombone. I want live music to sound like live music. I know that a lot depends on the recording technique, but let's set that aside for now and assume as perfect a recording as possible. But that's not the real world. Most recordings are not live ensemble performances. But you want them to sound as if they were. That's fine, that's what I like, too. But it isn't accuracy. **** accuracy. I want to enjoy my listening experience. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
|
#29
|
|||
|
|||
|
I guess by "accuracy" I mean "what the recording engineer intended to
produce." If your sound reproduction system taints what the recording engineer created, then that's not "accurate" in my opinion. Now, we can discuss whether or not it's even *possible* to record a live instrument or voice so that it's exactly reproducible. Geez, is this rec.audio.philosophy? :-) |
|
#30
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Bryan" wrote in message oups.com... I guess by "accuracy" I mean "what the recording engineer intended to produce." If your sound reproduction system taints what the recording engineer created, then that's not "accurate" in my opinion. Now, we can discuss whether or not it's even *possible* to record a live instrument or voice so that it's exactly reproducible. Geez, is this rec.audio.philosophy? :-) Who are we to know what he intended to produce. We are not mind readers. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
|
#31
|
|||
|
|||
|
I would invite the guy over and we'd drink some ale and he'd listen to
my system and say "Hey, you know that's exactly what I intended to reproduce. Nice job on the equipment selection, my man!" And we'd high-five and part company. Really though, my line of reason is that if one can find a sound system that is able to reproduce the original intent of a recording, then it's pretty darn close to "perfect," no? |
|
#32
|
|||
|
|||
|
OK, yes I am replying to my own post. :-) But I wanted to give those
of you on a similar quest a nice web site link I found. http://www.stereo-speaker-buyers-guide.com/index.html Some of the text is elementary and tedious, but there's interesting information there and also recommendations for speakers within various price ranges. Enjoy! |
|
#33
|
|||
|
|||
|
I can give you my opinion for what you are looking for "on the cheap"
as it were. Great price without compromising quality. I had a similar budget and after doing much research, hours and hours of it, on various consumer review sites and dedicated audio web sites, I was lead to audition the Athena AS-B2 bookshelf speakers.... I am telling you, for the price that these little gems are going for, they are worth every penny. I listened to these next to JBL, and Infinity bookshelves of similar size and specs, and these sounded the best, with at least a hundred dollar less price tag to boot. If you can go check these speakers out, it will be well worth it. Takes a few hours to break them in, but they sound wonderful. I bought the AS-B2's for $225.00 Can. and then went for a quality cheap A/V receiver and settled on the Denon 1602 which I purchased for $450.00 on sale as well. This will be your best bang for your buck in my honest opinion. And will cover your budget even with taxes included. (I am assuming you already have a CD player or DVD) I have since then picked up the matching center channel and two rears plus the AS-P300 subwoofer. Just pick up parts at a time and build the system you desire, Just be satisfied with your purchase. You will set yourself crazy trying to acheive perfection. Rearranging your new equipment is a lot cheaper than a new system every two years. You can always do little tweaks here and there. I hope this helps you a little. |
|
#34
|
|||
|
|||
|
Yes George, thank you, that does help a lot. I will audition the
Athenas too when I'm out and about. How is the subwoofer? I'm not interesting in anything below 40Hz (not much in music is below that octave), but I think the sub would deliver some "punch" to otherwise bass-weak bookshelf speakers. Thanks! Bryan |
|
#36
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message k.net... wrote: OK, I'm reading posting after posting, web page after web page, regarding what's the best equipment for music, what's best for home theater, what's best for surround. Everyone has a different opinion or a favorite brand -- most recommend going to a hifi dealer and trying out different speakers and amps. All I want is to hear music as if the musicians were standing in front of me playing their instruments. I want a recording of a symphony orchestra to sound like I'm seated in the theater. I want a recording of a jazz combo to sound like I'm seated in the front row of the nightclub. I want a Norah Jones CD to sound like she's sitting across the room and singing to me. I want a recording of me playing the trombone to sound like me playing the trombone. I want live music to sound like live music. I know that a lot depends on the recording technique, but let's set that aside for now and assume as perfect a recording as possible. IMO, with modern equipment, 90% of all sound "quality" and "accuracy" comes from the speakers. I suggest that the original poster take a look at planar or electrostatic speakers. All I want to know is, with my measly $500-$750 (or less?), isn't there a specific receiver/speaker combination that will produce what I want to hear? Or am I just searching in vain at this price point? Magnepan makes their MMGs, but they lack bass below 50-60hz and need a subwoofer. Their larger models are superb, though. Almost any modern receiver will power a pair in stereo mode. $550 a pair, though, makes it defiantely in your price range. Surround is a whole other ball of wax and requires at least $4000-$5000 to do correctly.(about $1500 for the receiver, about $1000 for the sub and the rest for 6-7 speakers) Magnepan also makes a surround setup of smaller speakers, but they require two small subs mated with the front speakers as they only go down to 100hz. These sound superb, though, and are only $299 a pair.($2000 total - $900 for a 5.1 setup plus $1100 for two small subs) http://www.magnepan.com/index.php http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ull&1111247138 Of course, used, there are great deals to be had. This is essentially a full range speaker. It would knock your socks off and into the neighbor's kitchen.  So, no, you don't have to spend $100,000 to get good sound - for stereo, $2000 will get you 95-98% of the sound quality. Hmmm, that's a new spec to measure, percent of sound quality. That ought to keep you obs yapping fo a few more years. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
|
#37
|
|||
|
|||
|
wrote in message oups.com... -- most recommend going to a hifi dealer and trying out different speakers and amps. Sounds pretty reasonable to me. All I want is to hear music as if the musicians were standing in front of me playing their instruments. Oh, is THAT all. Why didn't you say so? Ahem. You're asking the impossible, or at least very expensive, depending on how discriminating you are. So... is this a lot to ask? Yes. Isn't it really the *only* thing to ask? No. Is sound reproduction that subjective that no one can agree on a particular system that will do this? It's not really subjective. See the magazine The Absolute Sound. Absolute. Pretty objective. Or maybe, are we talking about a $100,000 system here to be able to be that accurate? Right. All I want to know is, with my measly $500-$750 (or less?), isn't there a specific receiver/speaker combination that will produce what I want to hear? Like I said, it depends on how discriminating you are. But at any price below a couple thousand dollars you're going to have to make some serious compromises. The trick in audio is to figure out what your priorities are, and pay only for those things. For example, is the bottom octave very important to you? (20-40Hz) In some music it doesn't even show up. Is concert level volume (massed strings of a full orchestra playing fff) important to you? Is detail or dynamics more important? etc. Then you can pick something that sounds close enough, depending on your wallet. |
|
#38
|
|||
|
|||
|
I think you're right Jeff, thanks. I have really gained a lot from
this discussion and I hope others will too when they find this in the archives. I think what I will do now with all this information is 1) have a price range in mind of what I'm willing to spend, 2) go to an audiophile dealer with some familiar CDs in hand and plan to spend some time listening to various speakers in my price range - I am gathering some names on the internet of what I'd like to try: PSB Image B25, Polk Audio LSi7, Axiom Millenia M22ti. . 3) Visit a couple other stores and hear what they have. 4) Make a decision on the speaker model I like most. 5) Look online for the best price on that model, or look for lightly used. 6) Go back to dealer and make offer. After the speakers are decided on, the next step is the receiver and DVD player, and maybe a subwoofer. I think I can rely on Consumer Reports reviews for these components. The Onkyo TX-SR701 was rated highest, but is on the expensive side. The Panasonic SA-HE100 was just below that, though, and is almost 1/4 the price. I think it's only 5.1, but for music I really don't need 6.1 or 7.1. DVD players are a commodity now and so finding something good for around $100 is not hard; the Panasonic DVD-S47 was top rated at $100. Thank you all for your input! Bryan |
|
#39
|
|||
|
|||
|
Hey, Rui Salgueiro sent me some information and a link that I wanted to
share. At www.harman.com someone has written some white papers on audio theory and how it applies to sound reproduction in the home. For you academics out there, it's pretty interesting reading! http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default |
|
#40
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:53:40 -0800, Bryan wrote:
Hey, Rui Salgueiro sent me some information and a link that I wanted to share. At www.harman.com someone has written some white papers on audio theory and how it applies to sound reproduction in the home. For you academics out there, it's pretty interesting reading! http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default Yep, cheers Bryan. There is some interesting stuff there... -- Mick (no M$ software on here... :-) ) Web: http://www.nascom.info Web: http://projectedsound.tk |
| Reply |
|
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Forum | |||
| Some Recording Techniques | Pro Audio | |||
| Voluntary Collective Licensing of Music File Sharing | Pro Audio | |||
| Frontline: "The Way The Music Died" PBS | Pro Audio | |||
| Comments regarding: Cables, Hearing, Stuff!! | High End Audio | |||
| Sound, Music, Balance | High End Audio | |||
Hybrid Mode
