Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The
context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget is
minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations.

1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid open or
shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less than $200
would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to
Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.)

2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air return under
the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be using plenum rated
cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is there a similarly
"standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses for fixed installs?

Thanks!
-walter

"Walter Harley" wrote in message


Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The
context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church.
Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations.

1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid
open or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less
than $200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't
subscribe to Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.)

If I was going to have to cover an church service, especially one with
congregational singing, with just one mic, it would be a mic inside the
piano. Which mic and where would depend on the piano. I use a Shure PZM (SM
93 I think) double-sided taped to the underside of the lid, about the
middle. I use quite a bit of Scotch's heavy-duty permanant double-sided
tape. When the piano was recently rebuilt, the mic left with it, and came
back with it.

Reason for the PZM is that I can't get the piano to cut through loud
congregational singing without feedback, using just my other mic which is
outside the piano, pointed at the underside of the far end of the sounding
board. In the end, SR is more about being heard than hi fi sound quality.

2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air
return under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be
using plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is
there a similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses
for fixed installs?

I've been told that plenum cable is really only rated for use in
applications like a dropped ceiling, where the whole ceilng is in essence a
cold air return. Putting it inside actual ducts is reportedly a no-no. I'd
like to see some discussion of this.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in
:

"Walter Harley" wrote in message


Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The
context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church.
Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations.

1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid
open or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less
than $200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't
subscribe to Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.)

If I was going to have to cover an church service, especially one with
congregational singing, with just one mic, it would be a mic inside the
piano. Which mic and where would depend on the piano. I use a Shure PZM
(SM 93 I think) double-sided taped to the underside of the lid, about
the middle. I use quite a bit of Scotch's heavy-duty permanant
double-sided tape. When the piano was recently rebuilt, the mic left
with it, and came back with it.

Reason for the PZM is that I can't get the piano to cut through loud
congregational singing without feedback, using just my other mic which
is outside the piano, pointed at the underside of the far end of the
sounding board. In the end, SR is more about being heard than hi fi
sound quality.

2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air
return under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be
using plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is
there a similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses
for fixed installs?

I've been told that plenum cable is really only rated for use in
applications like a dropped ceiling, where the whole ceilng is in
essence a cold air return. Putting it inside actual ducts is reportedly
a no-no. I'd like to see some discussion of this.



The only difference between plenum rated cable and it non-plenum rated
counterpart is the insulation.

Look up CAT5 cable specs for plenum and non-plenum use.

The local rules for the use of plenum cable may vary from the Natl. Code.
Check with your local building department.

r


--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in
:

"Walter Harley" wrote in message


Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The
context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church.
Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations.

1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid
open or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less
than $200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't
subscribe to Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.)

If I was going to have to cover an church service, especially one with
congregational singing, with just one mic, it would be a mic inside the
piano. Which mic and where would depend on the piano. I use a Shure PZM
(SM 93 I think) double-sided taped to the underside of the lid, about
the middle. I use quite a bit of Scotch's heavy-duty permanant
double-sided tape. When the piano was recently rebuilt, the mic left
with it, and came back with it.

Reason for the PZM is that I can't get the piano to cut through loud
congregational singing without feedback, using just my other mic which
is outside the piano, pointed at the underside of the far end of the
sounding board. In the end, SR is more about being heard than hi fi
sound quality.

2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air
return under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be
using plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is
there a similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses
for fixed installs?

I've been told that plenum cable is really only rated for use in
applications like a dropped ceiling, where the whole ceilng is in
essence a cold air return. Putting it inside actual ducts is reportedly
a no-no. I'd like to see some discussion of this.



The only difference between plenum rated cable and it non-plenum rated
counterpart is the insulation.

Look up CAT5 cable specs for plenum and non-plenum use.

The local rules for the use of plenum cable may vary from the Natl. Code.
Check with your local building department.

r


--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.

On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 07:21:16 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


Putting it inside actual ducts is reportedly a no-no. I'd
like to see some discussion of this. snip

It's also illegal in many localities. Check local codes. I've been
thumbing through the NEC for references, but haven't found it just
yet.

dB

On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 07:21:16 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


Putting it inside actual ducts is reportedly a no-no. I'd
like to see some discussion of this. snip

It's also illegal in many localities. Check local codes. I've been
thumbing through the NEC for references, but haven't found it just
yet.

dB

"Arny Krueger" wrote in
:

"Walter Harley" wrote in message


Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for.
The context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church.
Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations.

1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid
open or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape!
Less than $200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't
subscribe to Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.)

If I was going to have to cover an church service, especially one with
congregational singing, with just one mic, it would be a mic inside
the piano. Which mic and where would depend on the piano. I use a
Shure PZM (SM 93 I think) double-sided taped to the underside of the
lid, about the middle. I use quite a bit of Scotch's heavy-duty
permanant double-sided tape. When the piano was recently rebuilt, the
mic left with it, and came back with it.

I've done exactly the same with superb results. However, I would just leave
the lid down at this point. We used an SM-91, which is no longer in
production.

-Bruce

"Walter Harley" wrote in message


Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The
context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church.
Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations.

1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid
open or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less
than $200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't
subscribe to Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.)

If I was going to have to cover an church service, especially one with
congregational singing, with just one mic, it would be a mic inside the
piano. Which mic and where would depend on the piano. I use a Shure PZM (SM
93 I think) double-sided taped to the underside of the lid, about the
middle. I use quite a bit of Scotch's heavy-duty permanant double-sided
tape. When the piano was recently rebuilt, the mic left with it, and came
back with it.

Reason for the PZM is that I can't get the piano to cut through loud
congregational singing without feedback, using just my other mic which is
outside the piano, pointed at the underside of the far end of the sounding
board. In the end, SR is more about being heard than hi fi sound quality.

2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air
return under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be
using plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is
there a similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses
for fixed installs?

I've been told that plenum cable is really only rated for use in
applications like a dropped ceiling, where the whole ceilng is in essence a
cold air return. Putting it inside actual ducts is reportedly a no-no. I'd
like to see some discussion of this.

"Walter Harley" wrote in message
...
Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The
context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget
is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations.

1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid open
or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less than
$200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to
Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.)

2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air return
under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be using
plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is there a
similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses for fixed
installs?

Thanks!
-walter


Walter, this question will probably get more attention over on
alt.audio.pro.live-sound.

"Walter Harley" wrote in message
...
Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The
context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget
is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations.

1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid open
or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less than
$200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to
Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.)

2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air return
under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be using
plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is there a
similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses for fixed
installs?

Thanks!
-walter


Walter, this question will probably get more attention over on
alt.audio.pro.live-sound.

"Walter Harley" wrote in message
Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The
context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget
is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations.

1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid open
or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less than
$200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to
Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.)

Nothing is ever going to sound good with the lid shut.

The PZM seems to be the most common choice for this sort of thing... I
don't much like the way it makes the piano sound (we are talking about
a grand, right?), but it is very low profile.

In a pinch, mounting a couple low-profile omni gooseneck mikes in the piano
might do a little better. Not much, though.

This is the exact application that the Helpenstil piano pickup was designed
for. It sounds even worse, though.

2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air return
under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be using
plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is there a
similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses for fixed
installs?

You cannot do this. You _can_ run them on the outside of the cold air
return, though, which will be almost as easy.

You must use plenum-rated cable in any space used as an air return, but
you cannot use it in ducts. There is a cable you _can_ use in ducts
(and Steve Lampen is the guy to ask about it), but it will cost you a
bloody fortune. As it is, the plenum-rated stuff is much more expensive
than the cheap PVC materials. Surely a member of the congregation is
an electrician and can be drafted into pulling some cables.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Nothing is ever going to sound good with the lid shut.

The PZM seems to be the most common choice for this sort of thing... I
don't much like the way it makes the piano sound (we are talking about
a grand, right?), but it is very low profile.

Thanks. Yes, it's a grand; need the mic mostly for the sake of monitors, so
I'm not real concerned about the audio quality, though of course I don't
want it to suck utterly. Currently considering a Shure Beta 91.


This is the exact application that the Helpenstil piano pickup was
designed
for. It sounds even worse, though.

I remember using one of those on a couple of tours in the mid 80's. Don't
remember it ever sounding good.


You cannot do this. You _can_ run them on the outside of the cold air
return, though, which will be almost as easy.

No, it won't... the church is made entirely from concrete. The duct in
question is basically a concrete-lined trench in the foundations, under the
floor of the sanctuary. Running along the "outside" would involve
excavation :-) The only other alternative is to run them along the ceiling
or walls, which does not sound like a picnic as the ceiling is about 50' up
and everything is made of concrete.

There's already a bunch of cable running in that duct, but of course codes
have changed since it was put in (and probably the last installation job was
done by someone who didn't know about the code anyway).

Walter Harley wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Nothing is ever going to sound good with the lid shut.

The PZM seems to be the most common choice for this sort of thing... I
don't much like the way it makes the piano sound (we are talking about
a grand, right?), but it is very low profile.

Thanks. Yes, it's a grand; need the mic mostly for the sake of monitors, so
I'm not real concerned about the audio quality, though of course I don't
want it to suck utterly. Currently considering a Shure Beta 91.

In that case, go with the C-Ducer. The sound absolutely sucks, but it will
give you amazing gain before feedback, which is what you really want in the
monitor application anyway.

You cannot do this. You _can_ run them on the outside of the cold air
return, though, which will be almost as easy.

No, it won't... the church is made entirely from concrete. The duct in
question is basically a concrete-lined trench in the foundations, under the
floor of the sanctuary. Running along the "outside" would involve
excavation :-) The only other alternative is to run them along the ceiling
or walls, which does not sound like a picnic as the ceiling is about 50' up
and everything is made of concrete.

Running outside the building isn't as bad as it might seem, in part because
this is Class II wiring and does not need to be in conduit if it's outside.

There's already a bunch of cable running in that duct, but of course codes
have changed since it was put in (and probably the last installation job was
done by someone who didn't know about the code anyway).

Personally, this would scare me. Not that I have not seen similarly bad
things, but it would still scare me.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Personally, this would scare me. Not that I have not seen similarly bad
things, but it would still scare me.


It scares me too.

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
In that case, go with the C-Ducer. The sound absolutely sucks, but it
will
give you amazing gain before feedback, which is what you really want in
the
monitor application anyway.


I've heard of those, never used one. Do you know who in the USA carries
them? Their web site just lists an agent that I've never heard of in North
Carolina.

In article ,
Walter Harley wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
In that case, go with the C-Ducer. The sound absolutely sucks, but it
will
give you amazing gain before feedback, which is what you really want in
the
monitor application anyway.

I've heard of those, never used one. Do you know who in the USA carries
them? Their web site just lists an agent that I've never heard of in North
Carolina.

I think that Markertek carries them. Honestly, none of the pickups will
sound anything like a piano, but they will all give you all of the
isolation that you need. For monitors that's just fine.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message...

Nothing is ever going to sound good with the lid shut.


Don't you think that's a little harsh? ;-)

Asked with waaay too much close miked, closed lid experience.

What may be even more harsh... would be asking why a grand piano
that's loud enough not to be in the main PA of a large sanctuary, needs
a mic for insertion into just the monitors. Kinda' ruins the whole concept
of the question for me.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

why a grand piano
that's loud enough not to be in the main PA of a large sanctuary, needs
a mic for insertion into just the monitors.

Reminds me of a story of a famous father and daughter, both singers. I talked
to a guy who ran sound for their show. The daughter's technical rider
specified 4 15" monitors with 3,000 watts of amp power. She kept asking to be
turned up in her monitors... and still didn't track well with the band. The
dad got up, and the sound guy asked how he wanted his monitors. He said "turn
them off, I learned a long time ago how to hear the band. He was right with
the band and had solid pitch.

Seems like a lot of folks these days don't want to take the time to REALLY
learn their craft....

-lee-

"Leoaw3" wrote in message ...
why a grand piano
that's loud enough not to be in the main PA of a large sanctuary, needs
a mic for insertion into just the monitors.

Reminds me of a story of a famous father and daughter, both singers. I talked
to a guy who ran sound for their show. The daughter's technical rider
specified 4 15" monitors with 3,000 watts of amp power. She kept asking to be
turned up in her monitors... and still didn't track well with the band. The
dad got up, and the sound guy asked how he wanted his monitors. He said "turn
them off, I learned a long time ago how to hear the band. He was right with
the band and had solid pitch.

Seems like a lot of folks these days don't want to take the time to REALLY
learn their craft....

-lee-

And fewer and fewer realize that 'listening' is a part of the art... not just
being innundated by SPL from a monitor wedge.

"Walter Harley" wrote in message
Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The
context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget
is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations.

1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid open
or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less than
$200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to
Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.)

Nothing is ever going to sound good with the lid shut.

The PZM seems to be the most common choice for this sort of thing... I
don't much like the way it makes the piano sound (we are talking about
a grand, right?), but it is very low profile.

In a pinch, mounting a couple low-profile omni gooseneck mikes in the piano
might do a little better. Not much, though.

This is the exact application that the Helpenstil piano pickup was designed
for. It sounds even worse, though.

2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air return
under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be using
plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is there a
similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses for fixed
installs?

You cannot do this. You _can_ run them on the outside of the cold air
return, though, which will be almost as easy.

You must use plenum-rated cable in any space used as an air return, but
you cannot use it in ducts. There is a cable you _can_ use in ducts
(and Steve Lampen is the guy to ask about it), but it will cost you a
bloody fortune. As it is, the plenum-rated stuff is much more expensive
than the cheap PVC materials. Surely a member of the congregation is
an electrician and can be drafted into pulling some cables.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 00:12:43 -0800, "Walter Harley"
wrote:

Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The
context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget is
minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations.

snipped for bandwidth
Questions:

Is there currently *any* sound system?

Who needs to hear the piano mic? The pianist, the band, the
congregation?

What could be done entirely on stage? Monitors can often be
set and forget, sort of. Could everybody live with a monitor
system located on stage? And no live adjustment possible?

If the problem is with the rest of the band hearing the piano
(yeah, I know, never really happens) is there an acoustical
solution practical? Moving people around, reflective wall, etc.

Good fortune. Sounds like you've got your work cut out for ya.
But that's what it's all about.

Chris Hornbeck
"Shi mian mai fu"

"Chris Hornbeck" wrote in message
...
Questions:

See answers in my response to Leoaw3's post.


What could be done entirely on stage? Monitors can often be
set and forget, sort of. Could everybody live with a monitor
system located on stage? And no live adjustment possible?

Definitely not out of the question. Although, I'd like to keep as little
equipment as possible up on the stage - it tends to grow legs. The mix
position is more secure.


Good fortune. Sounds like you've got your work cut out for ya.
But that's what it's all about.

Yep.

It'll be a challenge, but they're fine folks doing some good work in the
world, I think; I don't mind going out of my way to try to ease their way.
And actually I kind of enjoy the "do it on a shoestring, what can we reuse"
projects, as long as the customer has reasonable expectations about the end
result; I feel like there are plenty of contractors out there who can do
great jobs with putting in expensive new turnkey systems, but maybe fewer
who can figure out how to get a couple more miles out of an existing system
and some duct tape and baling wire :-)

-walter

On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 19:29:20 -0800, "Walter Harley"
wrote:

Although, I'd like to keep as little
equipment as possible up on the stage - it tends to grow legs. The mix
position is more secure.

This only sounds silly to folks who haven't experienced it.
Churches are targets for thieves even worse than homes are,
because they trust perhaps overmuch. And don't report.
Could you armor a back"stage" location to suit?

My SR gig in a thrust-stage house has some similar balance
issues. We seat 635 but nobody is very far from the performers.
On stage, the grand piano needs to be mic'ed and monitored
if there is a backline (even just drums and electric bass).

Real singers perform here totally acoustic, but may use SR
for vocal intro's and specials. Church-ish in size.

I never mic drums; don't even own the mic's; or (electric) bass.
They're too frickin' loud already. No negative amplifiers
exist, so I'm stuck, maybe about where you are.

Outbreaks of sanity in the backline seem unlikely. Suicide
is immoral. What to do?

FWIW, I find myself much more interested in issues of monitoring
than in issues of FOH. Like Bob O. says "in front of the microphone".

Good fortune,

Chris Hornbeck
"Shi mian mai fu"