Hi all.....I've always said with regards to a lot of the music produced
these days:

Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of
practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an
instrument?!?!?
In 100yrs time or so no one will actually play an instrument anymore
at this rate!


I think what it is; I'm being selfish here! When I'm in my 60's 70's 80's
(if I get that far: & incapable of playing myself for what ever reason: I
want to be able to listen to great players of the day.
The likes of, pheeeew where do I start:
Guitarists: Al Di Meola, Frank Gambalie, Greg Howe, Pat Metheny, Eric
Johnson, Larry Colton, Jan Ackerman, Gary Moore.
Drummers: Dennis Chambers, Vinnie Colaiuta, Virgil Donati, Dave Weckl, Billy
Cobham, Steve Smith.
Bass Players: Victor Wooten, Jaco Pastorius, John Patitucci, Jeff Berlin,
Charles Mingus, Mark King, Alphonso Johnson.
Piano/Keys: Oscar Peterson, Chick Corea, Lyle Mays, George Duke, Thijs Van
Leer..i could go on & on!!!
A few of these greats have already departed from this world. Yep Selfish!!!
As i said: i'll have no one to listen to the way music is going at the
moment!!!

Just a thought.

WaLT.

"DCC" wrote in message
...
Hi all.....I've always said with regards to a lot of the music produced
these days:

Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of
practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an
instrument?!?!?
In 100yrs time or so no one will actually play an instrument anymore
at this rate!


I think what it is; I'm being selfish here! When I'm in my 60's 70's 80's
(if I get that far: & incapable of playing myself for what ever reason:
I
want to be able to listen to great players of the day.
The likes of, pheeeew where do I start:
Guitarists: Al Di Meola, Frank Gambalie, Greg Howe, Pat Metheny, Eric
Johnson, Larry Colton, Jan Ackerman, Gary Moore.
Drummers: Dennis Chambers, Vinnie Colaiuta, Virgil Donati, Dave Weckl,
Billy
Cobham, Steve Smith.
Bass Players: Victor Wooten, Jaco Pastorius, John Patitucci, Jeff Berlin,
Charles Mingus, Mark King, Alphonso Johnson.
Piano/Keys: Oscar Peterson, Chick Corea, Lyle Mays, George Duke, Thijs Van
Leer..i could go on & on!!!
A few of these greats have already departed from this world. Yep
Selfish!!!
As i said: i'll have no one to listen to the way music is going at the
moment!!!

Just a thought.

WaLT.


maybe some Pro will record these greats so you can listen to then in the far
future.

DCC wrote:

Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of
practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an
instrument?!?!?

It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the classical
world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed with
no amplification. As long as this remains the case in any sector of the music
industry, there will be a need for that practice, dedication, and torment,
because there won't be any way around it.

In 100yrs time or so no one will actually play an instrument anymore
at this rate!

Well, at least prices on vintage guitars will start coming down.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article ,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

DCC wrote:

Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of
practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an
instrument?!?!?

It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the classical
world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed with
no amplification. As long as this remains the case in any sector of the music
industry, there will be a need for that practice, dedication, and torment,
because there won't be any way around it.

what does amplification have to do with it?
George

George wrote:
In article ,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

DCC wrote:

Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of
practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an
instrument?!?!?

It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the classical
world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed with
no amplification. As long as this remains the case in any sector of the music
industry, there will be a need for that practice, dedication, and torment,
because there won't be any way around it.

what does amplification have to do with it?

Because a sound reinforcement system that is designed for amplification can
also do all sorts of other things when the audience isn't looking. If you
get rid of it completely, you also get rid of a lot of other crutches that
come along with it.

Also, of course, without a sound reinforcement system, performers are forced
to learn about dynamics and to learn to control them properly, because there
is nobody else to do it for them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article ,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

George wrote:
In article ,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

DCC wrote:

Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of
practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an
instrument?!?!?

It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the
classical
world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed
with
no amplification. As long as this remains the case in any sector of the
music
industry, there will be a need for that practice, dedication, and torment,
because there won't be any way around it.

what does amplification have to do with it?

Because a sound reinforcement system that is designed for amplification can
also do all sorts of other things when the audience isn't looking. If you
get rid of it completely, you also get rid of a lot of other crutches that
come along with it.

Also, of course, without a sound reinforcement system, performers are forced
to learn about dynamics and to learn to control them properly, because there
is nobody else to do it for them.

MY POV is the musician comes first
I do as much sound for sympohnies and orchestras as anything else
then there is amplification as a essential element to the art and
musicianship people like SRV and Eric Clapton, even Pink Floyd
required amplification to complete thier artistic visions
Amplification is like a throttle on a motorcycle
used properly it delivers a rush unattainable any other way, used
incorrectly and the results are devestating
so I do not see the use of amplication diminishing the need to be a
skilled musician
remeber there are thousands of unskilled non amplifed musician as well,
come to a party at my shop, they will be there :-)

in article ,
George at wrote on 8/29/04 9:59 AM:

In article ,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

George wrote:
In article ,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

DCC wrote:

Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of
practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an
instrument?!?!?

It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the
classical
world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed
with
no amplification. As long as this remains the case in any sector of the
music
industry, there will be a need for that practice, dedication, and torment,
because there won't be any way around it.

what does amplification have to do with it?

Because a sound reinforcement system that is designed for amplification can
also do all sorts of other things when the audience isn't looking. If you
get rid of it completely, you also get rid of a lot of other crutches that
come along with it.

Also, of course, without a sound reinforcement system, performers are forced
to learn about dynamics and to learn to control them properly, because there
is nobody else to do it for them.

MY POV is the musician comes first

GEORGE... note one BIG thing... (and this isn't MENTIONEd for teh purpose of
ciomplementing you, but certainly can and should be TAKEn as one) your work
aesthetic is, at least in teh circles where I travel, NOT the norm, and more
important, NOT what a lot of players INSIST on: they don;t HAVe great tone
and thus EXPECT you to 'invent' that for them. The classic wonderful (and to
me inherent cornerstone) idea of a 'sound person/system' that by design and
expectation is basically a WINDOW isn't what's wanted by the folks who
figure it ain;t THEIR fault they sound like they do.


I do as much sound for sympohnies and orchestras as anything else
then there is amplification as a essential element to the art and
musicianship people like SRV and Eric Clapton, even Pink Floyd
required amplification to complete thier artistic visions
Amplification is like a throttle on a motorcycle
used properly it delivers a rush unattainable any other way, used
incorrectly and the results are devestating
so I do not see the use of amplication diminishing the need to be a
skilled musician
remeber there are thousands of unskilled non amplifed musician as well,
come to a party at my shop, they will be there :-)

Perfecty phrased.
Another way to look at it (and this is part-and-parcel of the RECORDING job
but bleeds into reenforcement) is that it's also sonic portrait photography.
You have to hide the blemishes, make the most of teh good features and set
it all off in an attractive and artistically interesting and appropriate
light. Not that easy on the fly live especially when you ain't got a Sophia
Loren in front of the lens or a KDLang in front of the mic.

George wrote:
Amplification is like a throttle on a motorcycle
used properly it delivers a rush unattainable any other way, used
incorrectly and the results are devestating
so I do not see the use of amplication diminishing the need to be a
skilled musician

Right. But the lack of amplification _forces_ you to learn skills that
can otherwise be avoided.

With amplification, how do you even know the band up on stage is real? They
could just be a tape playback from the FOH. Having no amplification makes
this sort of thing impossible.

remeber there are thousands of unskilled non amplifed musician as well,
come to a party at my shop, they will be there :-)

Absolutely. But put them behind a mike and stick Autotune in there for
that great modern sound, add a taped backing track, and nobody will have
any idea how unskilled they are.

Amplification isn't bad, but it can be used to hide all kinds of things.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Amplification is like a throttle on a motorcycle
used properly it delivers a rush unattainable any other way, used
incorrectly and the results are devestating

I've nothing against amplification, but I would argue that nothing can beat
the rush of a full brass section playing maxed out.


"I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between
what you say and what you think you have said."
-george (paraphrased)

Also, of course, without a sound reinforcement system, performers are forced
to learn about dynamics and to learn to control them properly, because there
is nobody else to do it for them.

Of course, there are also performers who choose to work with amplification as
an artistic decision, & who understand & control their dynamics with incredible
precision.
AND they work closely with the sound system engineer to achieve an intended
dynamic result, although dynamics isn't the only, or even necessarily the
predominant element affected by the decision to use amplification.

Scott Fraser

in article ,
George at wrote on 8/29/04 9:21 AM:

It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the classical
world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed with
no amplification. As long as this remains the case in any sector of the
music
industry, there will be a need for that practice, dedication, and torment,
because there won't be any way around it.

what does amplification have to do with it?
George

CASE: in the jazz realm way many stand-up bassists just can/will not play
without an amp (usually one that makes the instrument reproduce at 80-90dB
at 3m with a note-flat response down to 20Hz) even when working against
real piano and lo-vol jazz guitar in a small room no-reenforcement
situation. They don;t want to have to WORK to make the instrument sound and
thus CAN not get the intensity and tone out of the instrument acoustically.

amp=crutch and in this case one that allows real TONE chops to atrophy.

This amp-jones seems distressingly to cross the lines of bad/good/great
players.

CASE: in the jazz realm way many stand-up bassists just can/will not play
without an amp (usually one that makes the instrument reproduce at 80-90dB
at 3m with a note-flat response down to 20Hz) even when working against
real piano and lo-vol jazz guitar in a small room no-reenforcement
situation. They don;t want to have to WORK to make the instrument sound and
thus CAN not get the intensity and tone out of the instrument acoustically.

As an arranger I would point out that the bass is not a very loud
instrument, and can easily be drowned out by a loud drum kit and piano. Even
all those basses lined up in an orchestra are not as loud as they look like
they should be.


"I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between
what you say and what you think you have said."
-george (paraphrased)

In article ,
lahblah (knud) wrote:

CASE: in the jazz realm way many stand-up bassists just can/will not play
without an amp (usually one that makes the instrument reproduce at 80-90dB
at 3m with a note-flat response down to 20Hz) even when working against
real piano and lo-vol jazz guitar in a small room no-reenforcement
situation. They don;t want to have to WORK to make the instrument sound and
thus CAN not get the intensity and tone out of the instrument acoustically.

As an arranger I would point out that the bass is not a very loud
instrument, and can easily be drowned out by a loud drum kit and piano. Even
all those basses lined up in an orchestra are not as loud as they look like
they should be.

either is the triangle. but youd be surprised how much it can add when
it can be heard!!!
george

in article , knud at
lahblah wrote on 8/29/04 4:51 PM:

CASE: in the jazz realm way many stand-up bassists just can/will not play
without an amp (usually one that makes the instrument reproduce at 80-90dB
at 3m with a note-flat response down to 20Hz) even when working against
real piano and lo-vol jazz guitar in a small room no-reenforcement
situation. They don;t want to have to WORK to make the instrument sound and
thus CAN not get the intensity and tone out of the instrument acoustically.

As an arranger I would point out that the bass is not a very loud
instrument, and can easily be drowned out by a loud drum kit and piano.

played badly/inappropriately SURE, but then that fits for ANY musician
(amped or not) that doesn;t know how to play with other musicians.

The string quartet avec piano is a time-tested balance of sound and older
than any electric system that can 'help' it. It's the basis and core of
every jazz ensemble out there. Players who can Play Together -GET- this and
are a thing of beauty and a joy to behold. Sure, there is the aesthetic that
INCORPORATES reenforcement as integral to a SOUND CONCEPT (Laurie Anderson
etc) but ANY time that approach IGNORES what can be gotten from the
instrument FIRST, it loses much, and THAT is what is becoming a lost art.

We have an artificial audience-expected ('lazy-listener' I call it)
aesthetic here that goes far beyond the topic at hand and plays directly
into the loudness wars Big Broadway Sound and every movie we see. It started
in the 40's with soloists boosted on radio and then live so that the band
did NOT need to be properly arranged to BACK them instead of have them
boosted above the band. Imagine watching the Basie band on tour in the 70's
work with a singer and have the power fail in the middle of the tune and
within a MEASURE that band was brought down BEHIND the singer and ballanced
right. magic. A 10 piece brass section playing ensemble playing pianissimo
behind a soloist results in a COMLETELY different timbre adn emotional
connection than the same section playing mezzo backing a boosted soloist.
Couple that with the VERY real loss of human and emotional contact you get
MERELY by putting even the best sound system between a player and an
audience and you have a very tough hurdle to get over, one that's all but
invisible.



Even
all those basses lined up in an orchestra are not as loud as they look like
they should be.


"I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between
what you say and what you think you have said."
-george (paraphrased)

Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of
practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an
instrument?!?!?

It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the classical
world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed with
no amplification.

Among other reasons, such as composers taking their ideas to the limit
which can sometimes require extreme technical skill to execute.

It's tempting to get bent out of shape, but popular music has become all
haircuts/titties and no music to a startling degree in the last 10 years. The
latest generations of would-be pop musicians seem completely unconcerned about
being able to play or sing whatsoever. The industry rarely rewards talent
(outside of niche genres)

Musical ability is simply not a requirment to be a musician any longer.

This is all very frustrating if you are trying to assemble a good rock
band. There aren't enough players to go around, not even close.


"I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between
what you say and what you think you have said."
-george (paraphrased)

On 29 Aug 2004 20:44:57 GMT, lahblah (knud) wrote:

Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of
practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an
instrument?!?!?

It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the classical
world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed with
no amplification.

Among other reasons, such as composers taking their ideas to the limit
which can sometimes require extreme technical skill to execute.

It's tempting to get bent out of shape, but popular music has become all
haircuts/titties and no music to a startling degree in the last 10 years. The
latest generations of would-be pop musicians seem completely unconcerned about
being able to play or sing whatsoever. The industry rarely rewards talent
(outside of niche genres)

Musical ability is simply not a requirment to be a musician any longer.

This is all very frustrating if you are trying to assemble a good rock
band. There aren't enough players to go around, not even close.


There's plenty of good players around here, but no work.

Al

YOu and me both. HOwever let me tell you a story from the opposite
side of the fence

Interesting story. I myself play all sides of all fences. I compose for
live ensembles but also pieces that are purely electronic, or some combination.
I generally go for the combination playing to the strengths and weaknesses of
real and imagined instruments (such as bizarre electronic textures mixed in
with the live ensemble)
"I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between
what you say and what you think you have said."
-george (paraphrased)

Any thoughts anyone?


Get a full description of your equipment to the potential headliner right away
explaining the situation & asking if they can work with it. Don't let the
promoter wait until too late, then spring a nasty disappointment on the
headlining act when they show up.


Scott Fraser

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On 2004-08-31 (ScotFraser) said:
Any thoughts anyone?
Get a full description of your equipment to the potential headliner
right away explaining the situation & asking if they can work with
it. Don't let the promoter wait until too late, then spring a nasty
disappointment on the headlining act when they show up.
I would be inclined to do that in most cases. HOwever some additional
info will tell you where I'm at with it.

A group of churches are putting this thing on. I'm church council
president but was not when our church government voted to participate.
Our pastor at the time suggested i represent our church on the
planning committee because of my expertise in live sound.

I talked to the equivalent of the traffic manager of the facility, a
person whom I would think would have the straight dope on what the
facility has to offer. HOwever, two PR type drones and a preacher
have basically told me I'm full of what you flush. I'
m at this point waiting for this place's music director to call me and
give me the same information I've already got, if he bothers to get in
touch with me. THe fearless leader (a preacher) said he knows the man
personally and will put us together.

AT this point the only reason I'll even call the promoter or anything
is if I get a check equal to the contribution of our church. I know
for a fact that the headliner cannot deal with the system I can
provide as we do not have enough microphone chahnnels. AS I said racks
and stacks I can provide, a mixer and snake would have to be rented or
borrowed. I can reach the headliner's agent via toll free telephone
but with what I have available and/or what the facility has available
it doesn't meet the specs on his rider. Racks and stacks meet his
specs however. AT this point they have my hands tied.

AS of september 10 if I have not heard from anybody else at the
facility I am going to email the grand poo bah of this great event and
tell him that without a check equal to my church's contribution in my
hand the racks and stacks don't even come out of the truck. IF he
agrees to that then I'll call the agent and see if we can't work out
a solution. Otherwise I'll put no more effort into it. when the
check is in my hands if he says no and they forfeit their deposit then
my church gets its money back.
IF we work out a compromise solution I donate my racks stacks and
labor.
was just telling my wife the other day this is why I never got heavily
into the gospel thing.




Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

why I never got heavily
into the gospel thing.


Yikes! Church politics. Sounds as bad as university politics, but without the
participants having any actual pretense to being educated. No thanks.


Scott Fraser

ScotFraser wrote:

why I never got heavily
into the gospel thing.


Yikes! Church politics. Sounds as bad as university politics, but without the
participants having any actual pretense to being educated. No thanks.

Actually, for ordained ministers, most mainstream churches do
require both a regular undergrad degree and a grad degree like
a Master of Divinity. Not that all the principals involved in
church politics are necessarily ordained minsters, but usually
they wind up being connected somehow to whatever's going on
(even if it is unwillingly).

However, despite the fact that many church staff members actually
are educated in some sense, the politics can get pretty ridiculous.
A lot of the time, there is an unspoken assumption that since any
production is a ministry, that (a) it's not necessary to do a
professional job because it's about spiritual stuff rather than
"putting on a show", and (b) anyone who gets annoyed by half-assed
stuff is just being uncooperative and would work harder and give
more to make the impossible happen if they *really* cared about
doing God's work. (Combine this second part with the fact that,
despite the central place of grace in the message of the Gospel,
many church people are still obsessed with proving themselves
worthy to God, and you get a really problematic combination.)

Somewhere I read an interview with T Bone Burnett where he said
he tried playing gospel music once (i.e. Christian entertainment
at a church type thing), and it worked out OK for about 10 minutes
until he played a Beatles song and this got people freaked out
and basically praying for his soul.

So basically, I personally would have pretty strong reservations
about doing the gospel thing. Not that I personally am seeking
a career as a professional, touring musician...

- Logan