What I have:
2 jbl eon speakers.
Alen Heath 16 trx mixer w/ fx.
Alesis 3630 comp/limiter
Sure mics

Questions?
1 - How can I control this beast of a hall. No matter what I do I can
not predict what kind of sound I get from gig to gig.

2 - What is my best bet to control feedback when performers do not
speak directly into the mic and I want to boost levels.

3 - Comp settings and EQ settings and speaker level to look for?

Any help on this subject would be great!

thnx
jon

JS wrote:
What I have:
2 jbl eon speakers.
Alen Heath 16 trx mixer w/ fx.
Alesis 3630 comp/limiter
Sure mics

Questions?
1 - How can I control this beast of a hall. No matter what I do I can
not predict what kind of sound I get from gig to gig.

What kind of hall is it and what sort of problems are you hearing?

2 - What is my best bet to control feedback when performers do not
speak directly into the mic and I want to boost levels.

Get the mikes out of the direct line of the speakers, and either use
a tighter mike so that the mike can be pulled far back, or use a mike
with a wider pattern so that you can hear the speaker to the side. The
RE-16 is a surprisingly good choice for people who can't stay on-mike.

3 - Comp settings and EQ settings and speaker level to look for?

Without having any idea what the hall is like, how could anyone suggest
anything? Walk around the hall, listen to what it sounds like. Clap your
hands. You can usually predict where the big feedback modes are going to
be.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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On 2004-05-10 (ScottDorsey) said:
1 - How can I control this beast of a hall. No matter what I do I
can not predict what kind of sound I get from gig to gig.
What kind of hall is it and what sort of problems are you hearing?
I see the original poster didn't bother to read the faq or he'd have
probably already answered this question.
3 - Comp settings and EQ settings and speaker level
to look for? Without having any idea what the hall is like, how
could anyone suggest anything? Walk around the hall, listen to
what it sounds like. Clap your hands. You can usually predict
where the big feedback modes are going to be.

but of course, he's got an Alesis 3630 and the controls have numbers
so we oughta be able to tell him he thinks.

Cllue number one: It's audio. USe your ears.

CLue numero dos: MOre information if you expect constructive help.
MR. DOrsey did pretty good with what he had to work with, but I doubt
I would have bothered to go that far.

THough the gear has markings on the controls that's for repeatability
the next time. WE can't give you suggested compressor or eq settings
without knowing something about the application etc. Even then for
most things its down to your ears. After all it's a sound system.

Please don't take this as a flame against you personally, but I see in
this group and alt.audio.pro.live-sound about half a dozen bonehead
questions a week where the guy wants the magic setting to make his box
perform the magic they told him about when he bought it from Guitar
center or Musician's friend.
You can't get there from here.



Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--



"Applying computer technology is as simple as
finding the right wrench to pound in the correct screw."

What kind of hall is it and what sort of problems are you hearing?

It's a church hall from the late 1850's. The sound in the hall was
hardwired in the early 90's which is great but when you run the house
board you virtualy have no control over anything and I usually like
the Eons and the Alen mixer to do sound because I get less complaints.
They use the house system when they just want to do a simple pulpit
mic event.

2 - What is my best bet to control feedback when performers do not
speak directly into the mic and I want to boost levels.

Get the mikes out of the direct line of the speakers, and either use
a tighter mike so that the mike can be pulled far back, or use a mike
with a wider pattern so that you can hear the speaker to the side. The
RE-16 is a surprisingly good choice for people who can't stay on-mike.

This helps me thank you...

3 - Comp settings and EQ settings and speaker level to look for?

Without having any idea what the hall is like, how could anyone suggest
anything? Walk around the hall, listen to what it sounds like. Clap your
hands. You can usually predict where the big feedback modes are going to
be.

I know I know bad question!!! But I try to turn down my low end and
that helps a bit. The speakers have a volume knob that I crank. Low
talkers tend to get feedback on me and thought there was a magical eq
to work around these issues. So I guess I have been doing the right
thing.

in article , JS at
wrote on 5/10/04 3:31 PM:


I know I know bad question!!! But I try to turn down my low end and
that helps a bit. The speakers have a volume knob that I crank. Low
talkers tend to get feedback on me and thought there was a magical eq
to work around these issues. So I guess I have been doing the right
thing.

I also can't comment much when I can't see the hall, but here's an idea for
you. I've done sound (with Eons, no less, and a Mackie) for a lot of contra
dances (acoustic fiddle music, lots of early American and irish, etc., and a
caller for the dancers) and I've found that for the vocals it often helps to
turn up the mids a bit for clarity. A lot of people who don't know about
sound issues think that turning up the treble will help the speaker sound
more intelligible, but it just yields more feedback, especially with an
inexperienced mic user. Oh God, they like to go out on the floor and wave
the thing around in front of the mains. Then, of course, everyone looks at
ME as if I was personally generating the howls and squeals.

Turning down the low end does help, and try increasing the mids a little
bit. If you have a sweepable frequency mid control, try and find that sweet
spot in the vocalist's voice that yields clarity.

Carlos

"Carlos Alden" wrote in message
...
in article , JS at
wrote on 5/10/04 3:31 PM:


I know I know bad question!!! But I try to turn down my low end and
that helps a bit. The speakers have a volume knob that I crank. Low
talkers tend to get feedback on me and thought there was a magical eq
to work around these issues. So I guess I have been doing the right
thing.

I also can't comment much when I can't see the hall, but here's an idea
for
you. I've done sound (with Eons, no less, and a Mackie) for a lot of
contra
dances (acoustic fiddle music, lots of early American and irish, etc., and
a
caller for the dancers) and I've found that for the vocals it often helps
to
turn up the mids a bit for clarity. A lot of people who don't know about
sound issues think that turning up the treble will help the speaker sound
more intelligible, but it just yields more feedback, especially with an
inexperienced mic user. Oh God, they like to go out on the floor and wave
the thing around in front of the mains. Then, of course, everyone looks
at
ME as if I was personally generating the howls and squeals.

Turning down the low end does help, and try increasing the mids a little
bit. If you have a sweepable frequency mid control, try and find that
sweet
spot in the vocalist's voice that yields clarity.

usually around 1.6K but careful too much and it sounds like a McDs drive
thru
George


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.676 / Virus Database: 438 - Release Date: 5/3/2004

Carlos Alden wrote in message ...

snip

Then, of course, everyone looks at
ME as if I was personally generating the howls and squeals.

Been there, done that, and I'm sure it will come as no surprise to
you that there wasn't anything left in the budget for the T-shirt :-)

JS wrote:
What kind of hall is it and what sort of problems are you hearing?

It's a church hall from the late 1850's. The sound in the hall was
hardwired in the early 90's which is great but when you run the house
board you virtualy have no control over anything and I usually like
the Eons and the Alen mixer to do sound because I get less complaints.
They use the house system when they just want to do a simple pulpit
mic event.

What if you turn the PA system off altogether? If it's a church from
the 1850s, it was probably designed to make voices up front project
(if it was a Protestant church anyway). With no PA, how does it sound
up front? As you walk down the aisle, what happens to the intelligibility?
Is the ceiling vaulted? Are there spots here and there where you hear
some weird echoes?

If you have specular reflections, speaker placement can be critical, and
a matter of a foot or two can change the sound surprisingly. If you have
flutter echo problems it can be even worse.

2 - What is my best bet to control feedback when performers do not
speak directly into the mic and I want to boost levels.

Get the mikes out of the direct line of the speakers, and either use
a tighter mike so that the mike can be pulled far back, or use a mike
with a wider pattern so that you can hear the speaker to the side. The
RE-16 is a surprisingly good choice for people who can't stay on-mike.

This helps me thank you...

You might want to check the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook for a good
introduction to hall acoustics and to microphone operations.

In ALL cases, proper mike technique on the part of the performers will be
a phenomenal improvement. If the performer knows how to use a mike, and
if they can hear what is coming through the PA, you are working with them
instead of fighting them.

3 - Comp settings and EQ settings and speaker level to look for?

Without having any idea what the hall is like, how could anyone suggest
anything? Walk around the hall, listen to what it sounds like. Clap your
hands. You can usually predict where the big feedback modes are going to
be.

I know I know bad question!!! But I try to turn down my low end and
that helps a bit. The speakers have a volume knob that I crank. Low
talkers tend to get feedback on me and thought there was a magical eq
to work around these issues. So I guess I have been doing the right
thing.

Yes, there might be some EQ to work around these issues, but it depends
on where the feedback mode is. Find the frequency that is feeding back
and notch it out. It will be different depending on where the mike and
speakers are placed, and invariably there will be some places where it
is much better than others. You want to set up in those places. If the
signal can never get from the speakers to the mike, there will never be
feedback.

If taking the low end out helps a lot, what does it sound like without
any PA? Is the room very bass-heavy to begin with, or is pulling the
low end out just helping intelligibility without making things more
natural?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

2 Eon speakers? In a large hall? You don't have a chance in hell at getting
coverage or a decent sound. Try asking that question over at
alt.audio.pro.live-sound, just make sure you're wearing flame retardant
clothing.

Jack

"JS" wrote in message
om...
What I have:
2 jbl eon speakers.
Alen Heath 16 trx mixer w/ fx.
Alesis 3630 comp/limiter
Sure mics

Questions?
1 - How can I control this beast of a hall. No matter what I do I can
not predict what kind of sound I get from gig to gig.

2 - What is my best bet to control feedback when performers do not
speak directly into the mic and I want to boost levels.

3 - Comp settings and EQ settings and speaker level to look for?

Any help on this subject would be great!

thnx
jon

REALLY THICK flame retardant clothing

"Jack" wrote in message
...
2 Eon speakers? In a large hall? You don't have a chance in hell at
getting
coverage or a decent sound. Try asking that question over at
alt.audio.pro.live-sound, just make sure you're wearing flame retardant
clothing.

Jack

"JS" wrote in message
om...
What I have:
2 jbl eon speakers.
Alen Heath 16 trx mixer w/ fx.
Alesis 3630 comp/limiter
Sure mics

Questions?
1 - How can I control this beast of a hall. No matter what I do I can
not predict what kind of sound I get from gig to gig.

2 - What is my best bet to control feedback when performers do not
speak directly into the mic and I want to boost levels.

3 - Comp settings and EQ settings and speaker level to look for?

Any help on this subject would be great!

thnx
jon

Sounds like a thing I did few months back in a large gym at a consolidated high
school for a benefit show. From singer/songwriters to electronic
drums/keys/vocals.

I had 4 EON G2's/15, Soundcraft MX-16, Sm58/57's and D.I. boxes

In all candor, after having done the room many time with much bigger gear. The
EON's worked like a charm.

Their front loaded design doesnt' squirt high frequency off the back wall,
ceilings and side walls.

Basically the reach out to about 60-75% of a basketball floor and trail off.

We had about 1000 chairs on the floor wiht a stage about 3-4 high at one end.

The trick is to not excite the room too much in the reverberant field.

Proper mic/placement/techniques will go a long way to making it sound as good
as possible .

I would recommend NO effects/proccessor etc. as they only are time modifiers
and the reverberant nature of the room will give enough of that to be nice.

Again, DO NOT let the doomsayers and the "better gear than that" mentality to
sway you in using what you have and getting the most out of it.

RKeithBrown

In article ,
(KINGCIGAR) wrote:

Sounds like a thing I did few months back in a large gym at a consolidated
high
school for a benefit show. From singer/songwriters to electronic
drums/keys/vocals.

I had 4 EON G2's/15, Soundcraft MX-16, Sm58/57's and D.I. boxes

In all candor, after having done the room many time with much bigger gear.
The
EON's worked like a charm.

Their front loaded design doesnt' squirt high frequency off the back wall,
ceilings and side walls.

the HF section is a reflex design??
news to me

Basically the reach out to about 60-75% of a basketball floor and trail off.

they reach 60% or the audience then fail

We had about 1000 chairs on the floor wiht a stage about 3-4 high at one end.

The trick is to not excite the room too much in the reverberant field.

this I agree with but how does a reflex design help accomplish this?


Proper mic/placement/techniques will go a long way to making it sound as good
as possible .

always true, not just in gyms


I would recommend NO effects/proccessor etc. as they only are time modifiers
and the reverberant nature of the room will give enough of that to be nice.

efx are a tool ddo not avoid them if you desire them all the reverb in
the room is not going to flange the guitar lead


Again, DO NOT let the doomsayers and the "better gear than that" mentality to
sway you in using what you have and getting the most out of it.

so if all you have is a pint of paint and a shash brush you should not
rethink painting your house
buy or rent the right gear for the job
if the right gear is two eons on sticks that is fine but if it is
reinforcment to a highly reverberant theater or room experiances says
reflex speakers would be about the last choice and used only if no other
option was available, as tthe results will be predetermined by the means
used
you don't drive a car on a flat tire unless you have no other option
eons in this space are = to that flat tire
if you want to use eons get about 8 of them, dirtibute them throughout
the venue and be sure everone is in a near feild position to a speaker
George
George

RKeithBrown

In article writes:

What I have:
2 jbl eon speakers.
Alen Heath 16 trx mixer w/ fx.
Alesis 3630 comp/limiter
Sure mics

Questions?
1 - How can I control this beast of a hall.

What hall? What performers? What's the problem?

In general, I wouldn't think that two Eons would do well in any large
space. they're OK for something the size of a small club for an
acoustic act or vocals only for a not-too-loud band. Large halls
present problems, and it's rare that one pair of speakers will solve
all of those problems.

2 - What is my best bet to control feedback when performers do not
speak directly into the mic and I want to boost levels.

Training. Tell them that when they hear feedback, to get closer to the
microphone. It's in THEIR hands, not yours. You're not the one doing
something wrong.

3 - Comp settings and EQ settings and speaker level to look for?

Whatever works. Start with 'bypass' and 'flat.'


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1084218720k@trad...
In article writes:

What I have:
2 jbl eon speakers.
Alen Heath 16 trx mixer w/ fx.
Alesis 3630 comp/limiter
Sure mics

Questions?
1 - How can I control this beast of a hall.

What hall? What performers? What's the problem?

In general, I wouldn't think that two Eons would do well in any large
space. they're OK for something the size of a small club for an
acoustic act or vocals only for a not-too-loud band. Large halls
present problems, and it's rare that one pair of speakers will solve
all of those problems.

2 - What is my best bet to control feedback when performers do not
speak directly into the mic and I want to boost levels.

Training. Tell them that when they hear feedback, to get closer to the
microphone. It's in THEIR hands, not yours. You're not the one doing
something wrong.

3 - Comp settings and EQ settings and speaker level to look for?

Whatever works. Start with 'bypass' and 'flat.'

----
It's amazing I will have everything set and a boom is adjusted so they
can direct the end of the stand straight to there mouth so to speak
(no excuses). I even tell the stage managers to make certain that the
mic is directly placed in front of there mouth's for best desired
audio placement and the first thing the lecturer does is tilt it down
below there mouth or to the right. AHHHHH!!!!!
Then everyone is looking at me to turn it up, turn it up! I do and I
start to hear that ringgggg and oh be; but mind you I have not fed
back in many many months just that ring and feedback comming soon.

This is the case 8 of ten times.. Not fun but someone's got to do it.
I will try all of the above solutions that the other users have posted
but I must agree mic placement is 100% key. I will try to get a pix of
the hall and post it for ya all. It's a wonderful venue and the
artists and lectures are grand but getting that crisp clear well heard
sound with confidence is kind of hit or miss and most of the times I
survive successfully but not without some wrinkles.

Cheers!

JS wrote:

----
It's amazing I will have everything set and a boom is adjusted so they
can direct the end of the stand straight to there mouth so to speak
(no excuses). I even tell the stage managers to make certain that the
mic is directly placed in front of there mouth's for best desired
audio placement and the first thing the lecturer does is tilt it down
below there mouth or to the right. AHHHHH!!!!!
Then everyone is looking at me to turn it up, turn it up! I do and I
start to hear that ringgggg and oh be; but mind you I have not fed
back in many many months just that ring and feedback comming soon.

Go up and adjust the mike properly. If they can't point it at their
mouth properly, go up and point it at their mouth for them. It helps
if you have a stage ninja to go up and do it for you.

I once had a Sennheiser 441 on a podium, about two feet away from where
the speaker's mouth should be. At that distance away, the speaker does
not need to think about the mike, and with the 441 you can pull it that
far back and be happy. I had the level adjusted to be just perfect
for a person sitting in front of the podium.

So, an author who shall remain nameless gets up on stage, bends down
to the mike, and says "IS this on?" in a loud voice with his mouth right
up against the mike. Two people in the front row fell out of their chairs.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article writes:

It's amazing I will have everything set and a boom is adjusted so they
can direct the end of the stand straight to there mouth so to speak
(no excuses). I even tell the stage managers to make certain that the
mic is directly placed in front of there mouth's for best desired
audio placement and the first thing the lecturer does is tilt it down
below there mouth or to the right. AHHHHH!!!!!

Well, he doesn't want to have is pretty face blocked by a big old ugly
microphone. There are ways to position a mic so that it's not
obtrusive. And it's the TALENT you have to train, not the stage crew.
They know what to do (or should, anyway).

What I hate is when the singer/guitarist decides to play an
instrumental and puts the vocal mic down on his guitar because he
thinks that having two mics on it will make it louder. Then when he
finishes playing the tune, he starts talking into no microphone.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Mike Rivers wrote:

..snip...

What I hate is when the singer/guitarist decides to play an
instrumental and puts the vocal mic down on his guitar because he
thinks that having two mics on it will make it louder. Then when he
finishes playing the tune, he starts talking into no microphone.


Holy ****, it's not just me! :-}


Ron Capik cynic in training
--

"Ron Capik" wrote in message
...
Mike Rivers wrote:
What I hate is when the singer/guitarist decides to play an
instrumental and puts the vocal mic down on his guitar because he
thinks that having two mics on it will make it louder. Then when he
finishes playing the tune, he starts talking into no microphone.


Holy ****, it's not just me! :-}

As we used to say at Channel Nine, "This is why they call them 'talent'." To
the original poster: I second Scott's suggestion of an Electro-Voice RE-16
as being remarkably feedback-proof. I used to work with a contra-dance
caller who liked to stand about 5' in front of the speakers. The mike was an
RE-16, and the speaker was an E-V Sentry IV, and it didn't feed back. When
there was a problem in one of the sets, he would sometimes lay the
microphone down on the speaker's bass cabinet, in front of the midrange
horn. It didn't feed back there either.

Also, you probably should take the compressor out of the chain completely.
Not only is it a really, really bad compressor, but it's probably adding to
your feedback woes. In a situation like this, you're better off without it.

Peace,
Paul