[Ty Ford[_2_]]

Hi,

After years of not caring about subwoofers, I finally got onboard after hearing a modest one on a Polk system that we got for Kathy's living room flat panel TV. This is a combo system with small table mount speaker cluster and a modest bluetooth wireless sub. It's a MagniFi Miini
https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...s/magnifi-mini

Hearing the sub made me wonder what the Onkyo receiver/amp in my living room might sound like with a sub. I've been running it as a 5.0 system for 15 years. I have a friend who used to work for Polk so I asked him. He said he likes the largest one. The HTS 12. 200W RMS, 400W peak. OK, fine! My Onkyo has a Subwoofer output spigot, so easy peasy.

https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...woofers/hts-12

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow. We watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.

So, how do we feel about subs?

[John Williamson]

On 03/02/2021 14:33, Ty Ford wrote:
Hi,

So, how do we feel about subs?

Fun at home, essential when mixing.

A pair of 8 inch, 100 Watts each Wharfedale Active Diamonds and a 600
Watt sub do a very good job on an orchestra and the Grande Orgue I
recorded at Rouen cathedral.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[geoff]

On 4/02/2021 3:33 am, Ty Ford wrote:
Hi,

After years of not caring about subwoofers, I finally got onboard after hearing a modest one on a Polk system that we got for Kathy's living room flat panel TV. This is a combo system with small table mount speaker cluster and a modest bluetooth wireless sub. It's a MagniFi Miini
https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...s/magnifi-mini

Hearing the sub made me wonder what the Onkyo receiver/amp in my living room might sound like with a sub. I've been running it as a 5.0 system for 15 years. I have a friend who used to work for Polk so I asked him. He said he likes the largest one. The HTS 12. 200W RMS, 400W peak. OK, fine! My Onkyo has a Subwoofer output spigot, so easy peasy.

https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...woofers/hts-12

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow. We watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.

So, how do we feel about subs?



Funny how 'subs' has morphed from once being specialised speakers at the
very low end of the spectrum (ie below normal speaker system), solely to
shake your seat and flap your trousers in earthquake movies, to any
speaker that handles the likes of frequencies up to 150 Hz or so.

Three scenarios for today's subs seem to be:
- Completely handling the bass side crossing over around 150Hz (or
whatever). Summing two channels to mono, or two independent subs.
- The above but reinforcing the 'top' speaker that still run full-band
(potentially messy).
- As above again, but tuned to kick in where the top speakers tail off,
with or without crossing over.

In my domestic arrangement my TV has a 'soundbar' that incorporates a
small sub. This arrangement works well for general TV viewing (Panasonic
something-or-other, don't really care !). I purchased this after finding
that the abysmal sound from my new TV was not actually a fault ;- (

For anything that benefits from better sound quality I switch the TV
output to my normal stereo that has speakers that extend reasonably flat
to around 20Hz anyway (KEF R107).

Similarly my studio speakers extend low enough not not need a sub, nut
could possibly benefit as as low -3dB point of 40Hz (Tannoy DMT12)

For hire-out PA systems I generally supply separate subs configured to
either protect or add to the top, depending on the client and nature of gig.

geoff

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 2/3/2021 5:37 PM, geoff wrote:
Funny how 'subs' has morphed from once being specialised speakers at the
very low end of the spectrum (ie below normal speaker system), solely to
shake your seat and flap your trousers in earthquake movies, to any
speaker that handles the likes of frequencies up to 150 Hz or so.

I've noticed that in literature, too, (and litter-ature, that is, less
than competent reviews). A speaker system nowadays is often comprised of
a tweeter and a "subwoofer" with no mention of what the low frequency
driver is "sub" to, other than the tweeter.

Sigh . . .



--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[gregz]

Ty Ford wrote:
Hi,

After years of not caring about subwoofers, I finally got onboard after
hearing a modest one on a Polk system that we got for Kathy's living room
flat panel TV. This is a combo system with small table mount speaker
cluster and a modest bluetooth wireless sub. It's a MagniFi Miini
https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...s/magnifi-mini

Hearing the sub made me wonder what the Onkyo receiver/amp in my living
room might sound like with a sub. I've been running it as a 5.0 system
for 15 years. I have a friend who used to work for Polk so I asked him.
He said he likes the largest one. The HTS 12. 200W RMS, 400W peak. OK,
fine! My Onkyo has a Subwoofer output spigot, so easy peasy.

https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...woofers/hts-12

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow.
We watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.

So, how do we feel about subs?

I don't like too much unnatural annoying bass sounds on movies. I think
with room gain, needs at Least -6 dB subtracted.

Greg

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 09:00:30 -0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

Ty Ford wrote:
Hi,

After years of not caring about subwoofers, I finally got onboard after
hearing a modest one on a Polk system that we got for Kathy's living room
flat panel TV. This is a combo system with small table mount speaker
cluster and a modest bluetooth wireless sub. It's a MagniFi Miini
https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...s/magnifi-mini

Hearing the sub made me wonder what the Onkyo receiver/amp in my living
room might sound like with a sub. I've been running it as a 5.0 system
for 15 years. I have a friend who used to work for Polk so I asked him.
He said he likes the largest one. The HTS 12. 200W RMS, 400W peak. OK,
fine! My Onkyo has a Subwoofer output spigot, so easy peasy.

https://www.polkaudio.com/en-us/prod...woofers/hts-12

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow.
We watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.

So, how do we feel about subs?

I don't like too much unnatural annoying bass sounds on movies. I think
with room gain, needs at Least -6 dB subtracted.

In movies it is called LFE - Low Frequency Effects. So don't expect
anything natural. It's only put there to annoy.

d

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[Scott Dorsey]

Ty Ford wrote:

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow. We =
watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.=20

So, how do we feel about subs?

Subs are necessary for movies these days, because just about all the
soundtracks made since the nineties have used the LFE channel for something.
Maybe not for very much in the case of a typical romantic comedy, but
something.

Subs for music are problematic because integration becomes a problem. Charlie
Hayden does a run down the bass and the tone and position of his instrument
changes somewhere along the line. For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On 11 Feb 2021 12:57:51 -0000, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Ty Ford wrote:

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow. We =
watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.=20

So, how do we feel about subs?

Subs are necessary for movies these days, because just about all the
soundtracks made since the nineties have used the LFE channel for something.
Maybe not for very much in the case of a typical romantic comedy, but
something.

Subs for music are problematic because integration becomes a problem. Charlie
Hayden does a run down the bass and the tone and position of his instrument
changes somewhere along the line. For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.
--scott

Scott, have you tried Sonarworks? It is the only thing that finally
integrated my sub. It looks a bit like tried-and-failed systems for
room equalization but is in fact totally different. It does its best
work in a room that is already good

d

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https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[geoff]

On 12/02/2021 1:57 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ty Ford wrote:

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow. We =
watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.=20

So, how do we feel about subs?

Subs are necessary for movies these days, because just about all the
soundtracks made since the nineties have used the LFE channel for something.
Maybe not for very much in the case of a typical romantic comedy, but
something.

Bed-head thumping against the wall ?

geoff

[polymod]

"geoff" wrote in message
...

On 12/02/2021 1:57 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ty Ford wrote:

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow.
We =
watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.=20

So, how do we feel about subs?

Subs are necessary for movies these days, because just about all the
soundtracks made since the nineties have used the LFE channel for
something.
Maybe not for very much in the case of a typical romantic comedy, but
something.

Bed-head thumping against the wall ?


ROTFLMAO!!!
Good one.

Poly


--
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https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[gray_wolf]

On 11/02/2021 3:43 pm, polymod wrote:


"geoff"Â* wrote in message ...

On 12/02/2021 1:57 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ty FordÂ* wrote:

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or more...Wow. We =
watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.=20

So, how do we feel about subs?

Subs are necessary for movies these days, because just about all the
soundtracks made since the nineties have used the LFE channel for something.
Maybe not for very much in the case of a typical romantic comedy, but
something.

Bed-head thumping against the wall ?


ROTFLMAO!!!
Good one.

Poly


And what kind of FX when the bed breaks and crashes?

[Ron C[_2_]]

On 2/11/2021 8:13 PM, gray_wolf wrote:
On 11/02/2021 3:43 pm, polymod wrote:


"geoff"* wrote in message
...

On 12/02/2021 1:57 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ty Ford* wrote:

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or
more...Wow. We =
watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.=20

So, how do we feel about subs?

Subs are necessary for movies these days, because just about all the
soundtracks made since the nineties have used the LFE channel for
something.
Maybe not for very much in the case of a typical romantic comedy, but
something.

Bed-head thumping against the wall ?


ROTFLMAO!!!
Good one.

Poly


And what kind of FX when the bed breaks and crashes?

Water bed tsunami blub! :-)

[geoff]

On 12/02/2021 2:13 pm, gray_wolf wrote:
On 11/02/2021 3:43 pm, polymod wrote:


"geoff"Â* wrote in message
...

On 12/02/2021 1:57 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ty FordÂ* wrote:

Not a huge difference on CDs so far, but movies with 5.1 or
more...Wow. We =
watched "Hook" a few nights ago and John Williams' score was HUGE.=20

So, how do we feel about subs?

Subs are necessary for movies these days, because just about all the
soundtracks made since the nineties have used the LFE channel for
something.
Maybe not for very much in the case of a typical romantic comedy, but
something.

Bed-head thumping against the wall ?


ROTFLMAO!!!
Good one.

Poly


And what kind of FX when the bed breaks and crashes?


Crunch.... squelch...pop .

geoff

geoff

[Trevor]

On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.

And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.

[Chris K-Man]

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 5:08:41 AM UTC-5, Trevor wrote:
On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.
And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply dep
your choice of sub/s and X-over.
___________

For consumers, is knowing the lower frequency response number enough to set up a sub - for music and movies?

At work, when setting up stereo equipment demos that include a powered subwoofer, the first thing I do, instinctively, is to look on the a back of the mains speakers for freq. response. If I see "90Hz" at the low end, I set the X-over freq. on the sub(if adjustment is available) to just a hair below the 90 hashmark(or halfway between 75 and 100Hz, of those are the closest).
I then set the subwoofer output control to its midpoint, put on some music to listen to, and fine tune from there.

Is that a reasonable process, in absence of taking measurement?

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:08:52 +1100, Trevor wrote:

On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.

And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.


If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
off and something goes missing.

d

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[John Williamson]

On 12/02/2021 14:44, Don Pearce wrote:

If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
off and something goes missing.

This. As someone on here has in their .sig file. "If you notice the
sound, it's wrong."

The tricky bit is matching the whole system and the room so you don't
notice it.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Roy W. Rising]

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 8:53:03 AM UTC-8, John Williamson wrote:
On 12/02/2021 14:44, Don Pearce wrote:

If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
off and something goes missing.

This. As someone on here has in their .sig file. "If you notice the
sound, it's wrong."

Thanks, John, for the acknowledgement. My simple maxim sometimes speaks to the sales world's "Look at this!" methods. Another place where "until you turn it off" works is for evaluating sound reinforcement in smaller environs.

~ Roy W. Rising "If you notice the *sound* it's wrong."

The tricky bit is matching the whole system and the room so you don't
notice it.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Trevor]

On 13/02/2021 1:44 am, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 21:08:52 +1100, Trevor wrote:

On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.

And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.


If the sub is good (not just a cinema boom box) and properly
integrated, you won't be aware that it is there - until you turn it
off and something goes missing.


Yep, hate the use of "sub" for almost any speaker that is not strictly a
tweeter these days! :-(

[Scott Dorsey]

In article , Trevor wrote:
On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.

And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.

And mains. And the room. The room is the hard part.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Neil[_9_]]

On 2/12/2021 5:41 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.

And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.

And mains. And the room. The room is the hard part.
--scott

And the EQ of the recording. And the LF roll-off characteristics of the
pre-amp and amplifier.

IMO, those interested in subwoofers are looking for a visceral
experience rather than an accurate reproduction, so to that end, none of
the variables really matter.

--
best regards,

Neil

[Trevor]

On 15/02/2021 10:27 pm, Neil wrote
IMO, those interested in subwoofers are looking for a visceral
experience rather than an accurate reproduction, so to that end, none of
the variables really matter.

Yes that would be an opinion only. I always laugh when people try to
play pipe organ music on their LS3A's for example. :-)
Some speakers don't really need a sub, others definitely do.

[Trevor]

On 13/02/2021 9:41 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.

And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.

And mains. And the room. The room is the hard part.


If the room is so bad you have to eliminate the bass entirely, then
perhaps you need to fix the room acoustics.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article , Trevor wrote:
On 13/02/2021 9:41 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 11/02/2021 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
For music, I'd rather have restricted bass
than lumpy out of control bass. Your mileage may differ.

And a real sub for music should, and can provide extended bass that is
NOT lumpy or out of control. Whether it does or not simply depends on
your choice of sub/s and X-over.

And mains. And the room. The room is the hard part.

If the room is so bad you have to eliminate the bass entirely, then
perhaps you need to fix the room acoustics.

Most small rooms are that way, I am sorry to report. Small square ones
being the most frustrating, of course.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."