[James Price[_5_]]

When viewing general specifications for guitar speakers, the frequency response curve often displays a larger frequency range than what's listed under the "Frequency Range". If the listed frequency range is 70-5000Hz, yet the frequency response curve shows activity below 70 Hz, is the speaker audibly reproducing the extended lower range in the plot? If so, what is the listed "Frequency Range" actually denoting?

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 4/19/2019 3:41 PM, James Price wrote:
When viewing general specifications for guitar speakers, the frequency response curve often displays a larger frequency range than what's listed under the "Frequency Range". If the listed frequency range is 70-5000Hz, yet the frequency response curve shows activity below 70 Hz, is the speaker audibly reproducing the extended lower range in the plot? If so, what is the listed "Frequency Range" actually denoting?

The frequency response plots, as well as the operating characteristics,
come from the marketing department, not the engineering department.
Sure, the speaker will reproduce something below 70 Hz, but as a guitar
player, you probably don't need it. What they want you to believe is
that it will do a good job as a guitar amplifier speaker, which,
hopefully, is why you're buying it.

The raw stated or plotted frequency response of a loudspeaker is more
theoretical than practical, since in the real world, it's a function of
the amplifier, the enclosure, and even the wiring between the amplifier
and speaker voice coil.



--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Trevor]

On 20/04/2019 7:41 am, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 4/19/2019 3:41 PM, James Price wrote:
When viewing general specifications for guitar speakers, the frequency
response curve often displays a larger frequency range than what's
listed under the "Frequency Range". If the listed frequency range is
70-5000Hz, yet the frequency response curve shows activity below 70
Hz, is the speaker audibly reproducing the extended lower range in the
plot? If so, what is the listed "Frequency Range" actually denoting?

The frequency response plots, as well as the operating characteristics,
come from the marketing department, not the engineering department.
Sure, the speaker will reproduce something below 70 Hz, but as a guitar
player, you probably don't need it. What they want you to believe is
that it will do a good job as a guitar amplifier speaker, which,
hopefully, is why you're buying it.

The raw stated or plotted frequency response of a loudspeaker is more
theoretical than practical, since in the real world, it's a function of
the amplifier, the enclosure, and even the wiring between the amplifier
and speaker voice coil.

You forgot the main thing. The response figure quoted is a function of
what you specify as the limits for acoustic output. Most speakers will
reproduce down to 20 Hz in no enclosure at all. Of course the output
will be so low that you cant hear it or feel it! You may be able to
measure it though. Now that marketing dept can select any dB limit they
like for the frequency range, so when they do actually show a plot (not
very often unfortunately) you have far more information to work with.
You still don't know how accurate the plot is of course! :-(
And it will certainly be different in your enclosure and room in any case.

[[email protected]]

Trevor wrote:



The frequency response plots, as well as the operating characteristics,
come from the marketing department, not the engineering department.
Sure, the speaker will reproduce something below 70 Hz, but as a guitar
player, you probably don't need it. What they want you to believe is
that it will do a good job as a guitar amplifier speaker, which,
hopefully, is why you're buying it.

The raw stated or plotted frequency response of a loudspeaker is more
theoretical than practical, since in the real world, it's a function of
the amplifier, the enclosure, and even the wiring between the amplifier
and speaker voice coil.


You forgot the main thing. The response figure quoted is a function of
what you specify as the limits for acoustic output.



** The OP is talking about *guitar* speakers, not speaker systems, specified as drivers. They are a special case, separate from hi-fi speakers.

See typical example, with plot as well as numbers.

https://celestion.com/product/22/seventy_80/

Note how the " -10dB rule " applies when deriving numbers from the response plot. The plot is obtained with the driver mounted on a large baffle or large volume cabinet and driven with constant voltage input.

In typical use, the speaker or multiple speakers are mounted in an open backed cabinet of modest dimensions and driven with a amplifier that has a high output impedance - anywhere between 8 and 100 ohms. This can dramatically change the response from the published curve.

Still, it is useful for making comparisons between various models.



...... Phil

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 4/20/2019 11:00 PM, Trevor wrote:
You forgot the main thing. The response figure quoted is a function of
what you specify as the limits for acoustic output. Most speakers will
reproduce down to 20 Hz in no enclosure at all. Of course the output
will be so low that you cant hear it or feel it!

I thought everybody knew that "unspecified" frequency response of
anything was nothing but marketing fluff. E-V made a 30" woofer at one
time, and I knew of a bass player who had one built into a cabinet for
his bass. He said that, as far as sounding like a musical instrument
goes, his Ampeg cabinet with six or eight speakers sounded better
overall, but he just _wanted_ to have a bigger speaker than anyone else.
And this was even before Spinal Tap.

--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Scott Dorsey]

In article , Mike Rivers wrote:
I thought everybody knew that "unspecified" frequency response of
anything was nothing but marketing fluff. E-V made a 30" woofer at one
time, and I knew of a bass player who had one built into a cabinet for
his bass. He said that, as far as sounding like a musical instrument
goes, his Ampeg cabinet with six or eight speakers sounded better
overall, but he just _wanted_ to have a bigger speaker than anyone else.
And this was even before Spinal Tap.

The 30W was an interesting beast. Back then, voice coils and suspensions
did not allow a very wide xmax, so if you wanted to move a lot of air you
needed a lot of area. The T-S math hadn't been worked out back then, either,
so cabinet tuning was more or less trial and error and nobody really had a
grip on driver Q. So, by the standards of modern bass drivers it was pretty
crappy.

But, if you wanted a box that could move air at 20 Hz, you could do it with
a 30W in a huge sealed cabinet, like they did for the Sensurround system.
Want to put it in a small cabinet to carry around with your bass guitar, you
are going to find the Vas is not appropriate for the application.

And anyway, the lowest string on the bass guitar is what... 65 Hz or so?
No need for extension much below that.... but a serious need for flat response
in the octave above it.

But it -was- really big, and popular with people who were compensating for
insufficient genital size. It's a wonder that something like that is not
being made today for the car audio industry.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Matt Faunce]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Mike Rivers wrote:
I thought everybody knew that "unspecified" frequency response of
anything was nothing but marketing fluff. E-V made a 30" woofer at one
time, and I knew of a bass player who had one built into a cabinet for
his bass. He said that, as far as sounding like a musical instrument
goes, his Ampeg cabinet with six or eight speakers sounded better
overall, but he just _wanted_ to have a bigger speaker than anyone else.
And this was even before Spinal Tap.

The 30W was an interesting beast. Back then, voice coils and suspensions
did not allow a very wide xmax, so if you wanted to move a lot of air you
needed a lot of area. The T-S math hadn't been worked out back then, either,
so cabinet tuning was more or less trial and error and nobody really had a
grip on driver Q. So, by the standards of modern bass drivers it was pretty
crappy.

But, if you wanted a box that could move air at 20 Hz, you could do it with
a 30W in a huge sealed cabinet, like they did for the Sensurround system.
Want to put it in a small cabinet to carry around with your bass guitar, you
are going to find the Vas is not appropriate for the application.

And anyway, the lowest string on the bass guitar is what... 65 Hz or so?


You're thinking cello. Bass goes down to 41.something. But yeah, it's far
from 20.

--
Matt

[geoff]

On 22/04/2019 12:33 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:


And anyway, the lowest string on the bass guitar is what... 65 Hz or so?
No need for extension much below that.... but a serious need for flat response
in the octave above it.


The (reasonably common) 5-string basses have a low-B fundamental of
approx 31Hz.

I have a 4x10" Acme Low-B4 cabinet that has useful output at that
frequency. (And the stressed-ply cabinet gives and amazingly quiet
'donk' when you rap it with knuckles, unlike many other similarly
purposed cabinets that sound more like a cornflake box. But that's all
bye-the-bye ....)

Lower frequencies are also beneficial for some styles of bass playing
that include percussive slapping effects. Not to mention bass synths ...

But it -was- really big, and popular with people who were compensating for
insufficient genital size. It's a wonder that something like that is not
being made today for the car audio industry.

Also larger cones more difficult to avoid cone breakup distortion when
trying to push at higher levels and/or higher frequencies.

geoff

[Trevor]

On 21/04/2019 9:49 pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 4/20/2019 11:00 PM, Trevor wrote:
You forgot the main thing. The response figure quoted is a function of
what you specify as the limits for acoustic output. Most speakers will
reproduce down to 20 Hz in no enclosure at all. Of course the output
will be so low that you cant hear it or feel it!

I thought everybody knew that "unspecified" frequency response of
anything was nothing but marketing fluff.

Yeah you'd think, but apparently not everybody.

[Scott Dorsey]

James Price wrote:
When viewing general specifications for guitar speakers, the frequency resp=
onse curve often displays a larger frequency range than what's listed under=
the "Frequency Range". If the listed frequency range is 70-5000Hz, yet the=
frequency response curve shows activity below 70 Hz, is the speaker audibl=
y reproducing the extended lower range in the plot? If so, what is the list=
ed "Frequency Range" actually denoting?

The listed "frequency range" is most often denoting that the marketing
department pulled a number out of their butt and that the manufacturer
does not take you seriously.

If you see a "frequency response" with tolerances, such as 70-5000Hz +/-3dB,
you know the frequency will stay within those tolerances over that range
at full rated power. Outside of that range you probably get output but you
don't know what it will be.

If a frequency range is given without tolerances it is meaningless except
in that it tells you to avoid a vendor who gives fake numbers.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[James Price[_5_]]

On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 5:07:35 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
The listed "frequency range" is most often denoting that the marketing
department pulled a number out of their butt and that the manufacturer
does not take you seriously.

If you see a "frequency response" with tolerances, such as 70-5000Hz +/-3dB,
you know the frequency will stay within those tolerances over that range
at full rated power. Outside of that range you probably get output but you
don't know what it will be.

If a frequency range is given without tolerances it is meaningless except
in that it tells you to avoid a vendor who gives fake numbers.

In your experience, would a guitar speaker (not bass guitar speaker) be
capable of producing low frequencies around 40 Hz at any output? I
ask because I was privy to a discussion where it was claimed that 1) they
don't have the excursion needed to produce frequencies that low and 2) the
wavelength comes into play; speaker excursion can't deal with waveforms
that long. There was also mention of guitar speaker cabinets being designed
for mid-bass on up to around 5 kHz, the implication being that they likewise
aren't designed or capable of reproducing frequencies that low.

comes into play;

[Trevor]

On 20/04/2019 8:31 am, James Price wrote:
On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 5:07:35 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
The listed "frequency range" is most often denoting that the marketing
department pulled a number out of their butt and that the manufacturer
does not take you seriously.

If you see a "frequency response" with tolerances, such as 70-5000Hz +/-3dB,
you know the frequency will stay within those tolerances over that range
at full rated power. Outside of that range you probably get output but you
don't know what it will be.

If a frequency range is given without tolerances it is meaningless except
in that it tells you to avoid a vendor who gives fake numbers.

In your experience, would a guitar speaker (not bass guitar speaker) be
capable of producing low frequencies around 40 Hz at any output? I
ask because I was privy to a discussion where it was claimed that 1) they
don't have the excursion needed to produce frequencies that low and 2) the
wavelength comes into play; speaker excursion can't deal with waveforms
that long. There was also mention of guitar speaker cabinets being designed
for mid-bass on up to around 5 kHz, the implication being that they likewise
aren't designed or capable of reproducing frequencies that low.

Almost ANY speaker can reproduce 20Hz. Almost none can do it at a level
you can hear or feel. The excursion is NOT simply a matter of frequency,
but frequency AND input power. At *very low* power levels there is no
problem with almost any LF speaker following a 20 Hz waveform, but the
SPL output may be low to unmeasureable! Your discussion friends simply
didn't understand all the variables.

[geoff]

On 21/04/2019 3:13 PM, Trevor wrote:
..

Almost ANY speaker can reproduce 20Hz. Almost none can do it at a level
you can hear or feel. The excursion is NOT simply a matter of frequency,
but frequency AND input power. At *very low* power levels there is no
problem with almost any LF speaker following a 20 Hz waveform, but the
SPL output may be low to unmeasureable! Your discussion friends simply
didn't understand all the variables.

I know we are getting pretty far away from 'guitar speakers' here, but
it's fun.

You want to feel (and hear) some great bass if that tickles your fancy,
try Sting 'A Thousand Years', Supertramp "You Win, I Lose', Nora Jones
"Turn Me On', or even Beatles 'Mother Nature's Son' (esp. 2009
remastered version).

Sad that most people never even realise it is there.

geoff

[Scott Dorsey]

James Price wrote:
In your experience, would a guitar speaker (not bass guitar speaker) be
capable of producing low frequencies around 40 Hz at any output? I
ask because I was privy to a discussion where it was claimed that 1) they
don't have the excursion needed to produce frequencies that low and 2) the
wavelength comes into play; speaker excursion can't deal with waveforms
that long. There was also mention of guitar speaker cabinets being designed
for mid-bass on up to around 5 kHz, the implication being that they likewise
aren't designed or capable of reproducing frequencies that low.

If you put a 40 Hz sine into a typical guitar speaker with an open-backed
guitar cabinet, you will get a lot of sound out. A very tiny bit of that
will be at 40 Hz and most of it will be at higher frequencies resulting from
the cone breakup.

The high cabinet tuning and speaker breakup are where a lot of the sound
of the amp come from.

Open E string on a guitar is only 83Hz anyway... why design a cabinet for
use below the lowest frequency you can play?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[geoff]

On 21/04/2019 11:04 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:


Open E string on a guitar is only 83Hz anyway... why design a cabinet for
use below the lowest frequency you can play?
--scott



Intermodulation products / beats (frequency version) perhaps ?

geoff

[James Price[_5_]]

On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 5:07:35 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
The listed "frequency range" is most often denoting that the marketing
department pulled a number out of their butt and that the manufacturer
does not take you seriously.

If you see a "frequency response" with tolerances, such as 70-5000Hz +/-3dB,
you know the frequency will stay within those tolerances over that range
at full rated power. Outside of that range you probably get output but you
don't know what it will be.

If a frequency range is given without tolerances it is meaningless except
in that it tells you to avoid a vendor who gives fake numbers.

In your experience, would a guitar speaker (not bass guitar speaker) be
capable of producing low frequencies around 40 Hz at any output? I
ask because I was privy to a discussion where it was claimed that 1) they
don't have the excursion needed to produce frequencies that low and 2) the
wavelength comes into play; speaker excursion can't deal with waveforms
that long. There was also mention of guitar speaker cabinets being designed
for mid-bass on up to around 5 kHz, the implication being that they likewise
aren't designed or capable of reproducing frequencies that low.

[[email protected]]

James Price wrote:



In your experience, would a guitar speaker (not bass guitar speaker) be
capable of producing low frequencies around 40 Hz at any output?


** Of course, but not at the high sound pressures available at higher frequencies. I often test combo amplifiers by applying a 40Hz sine wave to the input to reveal the existence or otherwise of buzzing and rattling noises from the speakers and cabinetry. Some clean sound at 40 Hz is audible at close range but not very loud.



I
ask because I was privy to a discussion where it was claimed that 1) they
don't have the excursion needed to produce frequencies that low and 2) the
wavelength comes into play; speaker excursion can't deal with waveforms
that long.


** Both claims are false.


There was also mention of guitar speaker cabinets being designed
for mid-bass on up to around 5 kHz, the implication being that they likewise
aren't designed or capable of reproducing frequencies that low.



** Guitar speaker cabinets are mostly open backed, imposing a strict low frequency limit depending on the dimensions. The larger examples reproduce well down to about 60Hz.

Closed backed cabinets may do better or worse, depending on the actual drivers in use and the existence or not of porting.

It is true that guitar speakers have limited cone excursions ( compared to hi-fi woofers), but this is made upfor by having large cones areas and the use of multiple drivers in cabinets.



..... Phil

[Trevor]

On 20/04/2019 8:07 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
James Price wrote:
When viewing general specifications for guitar speakers, the frequency resp=
onse curve often displays a larger frequency range than what's listed under=
the "Frequency Range". If the listed frequency range is 70-5000Hz, yet the=
frequency response curve shows activity below 70 Hz, is the speaker audibl=
y reproducing the extended lower range in the plot? If so, what is the list=
ed "Frequency Range" actually denoting?

The listed "frequency range" is most often denoting that the marketing
department pulled a number out of their butt and that the manufacturer
does not take you seriously.

If you see a "frequency response" with tolerances, such as 70-5000Hz +/-3dB,
you know the frequency will stay within those tolerances over that range
at full rated power.

No you don't. You know that is what the manufacturer suggests might be
the case in some circumstances. Or not. But a frequency response is NOT
the same as a full power output response in any case. A really reputable
manufacturer might provide both, but that's pretty rare IME.


Outside of that range you probably get output but you
don't know what it will be.

Yep, you have even less idea what it will be!

[James Price[_5_]]

On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 5:07:35 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
If you see a "frequency response" with tolerances, such as 70-5000Hz +/-3dB,
you know the frequency will stay within those tolerances over that range
at full rated power. Outside of that range you probably get output but you
don't know what it will be.

If a frequency range is given without tolerances it is meaningless except
in that it tells you to avoid a vendor who gives fake numbers.

I own a pair of Mackie HR824's, and the listed frequency range is
39-20000Hz with a tolerance of ±1.5 dB. Is such a narrow tolerance
realistic / accurate below 60 Hz / above 12 KHz?

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 5/27/2019 2:10 PM, James Price wrote:
I own a pair of Mackie HR824's, and the listed frequency range is
39-20000Hz with a tolerance of ±1.5 dB. Is such a narrow tolerance
realistic / accurate below 60 Hz / above 12 KHz?

With a tolerance that small, generally there's some fine print that
stipulates less than the specified range. Mackie used to individually
test each speaker in a relatively small and not completely anechoic
isolation chamber and they included a graph with each speaker. I don't
remember what the frequency range on the graph was, and I don't know if
they still do that with their current line of monitors.

There's (always) some smoothing involved with frequency response plots,
sometimes as broad as a full octave, so while most of the amplitude
response falls within a 3 dB band, there are almost certainly some
frequencies where that range will be exceeded over a small frequency
range. That's why most of us don't use frequency response specifications
for anything but a guide, and make our critical evaluation by listening.


--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[[email protected]]

James Price wrote:


When viewing general specifications for guitar speakers,
the frequency response curve often displays a larger frequency
range than what's listed under the "Frequency Range".
If the listed frequency range is 70-5000Hz, yet the frequency
response curve shows activity below 70 Hz, is the speaker audibly
reproducing the extended lower range in the plot?
If so, what is the listed "Frequency Range" actually denoting?


** The term "frequency range" refers to the USEABLE range of frequencies the speaker will produce when used as a guitar speaker.

The response curve will normally show a wider range than this as it includes frequencies outside the usable range. Although there is no hard and fast rule, a level 10dB below the mid frequency output is no longer considered "useable".



..... Phil

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 12:41:40 -0700 (PDT), James Price
wrote:

When viewing general specifications for guitar speakers, the frequency response curve often displays a larger frequency range than what's listed under the "Frequency Range". If the listed frequency range is 70-5000Hz, yet the frequency response curve shows activity below 70 Hz, is the speaker audibly reproducing the extended lower range in the plot? If so, what is the listed "Frequency Range" actually denoting?

Guitar speakers don't reproduce guitar sounds, they produce them. So
don't even think about curves, you need to listen to the speaker as an
integral part of the guitar - which comprises the guitar itself, plus
cables, pedals, amp and speakers. That is the only meaningful
information you can get about a guitar speaker.

d

[Trevor]

On 20/04/2019 4:42 pm, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 12:41:40 -0700 (PDT), James Price
wrote:

When viewing general specifications for guitar speakers, the frequency response curve often displays a larger frequency range than what's listed under the "Frequency Range". If the listed frequency range is 70-5000Hz, yet the frequency response curve shows activity below 70 Hz, is the speaker audibly reproducing the extended lower range in the plot? If so, what is the listed "Frequency Range" actually denoting?

Guitar speakers don't reproduce guitar sounds, they produce them. So
don't even think about curves, you need to listen to the speaker as an
integral part of the guitar - which comprises the guitar itself, plus
cables, pedals, amp and speakers. That is the only meaningful
information you can get about a guitar speaker.


HaHa, you're suggesting that every time a guitarist changes his guitar
or pedals he should change his speaker! :-) A good music instrument
speaker is still one which has a good response over the range you
require, and *most* importantly has the acoustic output you require! The
sound type you require can be better achieved through the guitar,
amplifier and signal modifiers IMO. (Not a believer in using crappy
leads to change the sound either for that matter)

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Sun, 21 Apr 2019 13:22:29 +1000, Trevor wrote:

On 20/04/2019 4:42 pm, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 12:41:40 -0700 (PDT), James Price
wrote:

When viewing general specifications for guitar speakers, the frequency response curve often displays a larger frequency range than what's listed under the "Frequency Range". If the listed frequency range is 70-5000Hz, yet the frequency response curve shows activity below 70 Hz, is the speaker audibly reproducing the extended lower range in the plot? If so, what is the listed "Frequency Range" actually denoting?

Guitar speakers don't reproduce guitar sounds, they produce them. So
don't even think about curves, you need to listen to the speaker as an
integral part of the guitar - which comprises the guitar itself, plus
cables, pedals, amp and speakers. That is the only meaningful
information you can get about a guitar speaker.


HaHa, you're suggesting that every time a guitarist changes his guitar
or pedals he should change his speaker! :-) A good music instrument
speaker is still one which has a good response over the range you
require, and *most* importantly has the acoustic output you require! The
sound type you require can be better achieved through the guitar,
amplifier and signal modifiers IMO. (Not a believer in using crappy
leads to change the sound either for that matter)



How on earth did you derive that from what I said? I said that a
guitar speaker is an integral part of the electric guitar system and
can't be considered in isolation.

d

[Trevor]

On 21/04/2019 4:03 pm, Don Pearce wrote:
On Sun, 21 Apr 2019 13:22:29 +1000, Trevor wrote:

On 20/04/2019 4:42 pm, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 12:41:40 -0700 (PDT), James Price
wrote:

When viewing general specifications for guitar speakers, the frequency response curve often displays a larger frequency range than what's listed under the "Frequency Range". If the listed frequency range is 70-5000Hz, yet the frequency response curve shows activity below 70 Hz, is the speaker audibly reproducing the extended lower range in the plot? If so, what is the listed "Frequency Range" actually denoting?

Guitar speakers don't reproduce guitar sounds, they produce them. So
don't even think about curves, you need to listen to the speaker as an
integral part of the guitar - which comprises the guitar itself, plus
cables, pedals, amp and speakers. That is the only meaningful
information you can get about a guitar speaker.


HaHa, you're suggesting that every time a guitarist changes his guitar
or pedals he should change his speaker! :-) A good music instrument
speaker is still one which has a good response over the range you
require, and *most* importantly has the acoustic output you require! The
sound type you require can be better achieved through the guitar,
amplifier and signal modifiers IMO. (Not a believer in using crappy
leads to change the sound either for that matter)



How on earth did you derive that from what I said? I said that a
guitar speaker is an integral part of the electric guitar system and
can't be considered in isolation.


Yep, and I said *I* DON'T consider the speaker part of the "guitar
itself" or cables and pedals, that's all.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article , Trevor wrote:

Yep, and I said *I* DON'T consider the speaker part of the "guitar
itself" or cables and pedals, that's all.

Why not? The amplifier is clipping, the speaker is breaking up, the cabinet
is deliberately designed to limit bandwidth. Not only that, the output of
the amp at high levels is looping back into the guitar pickups, causing
the system to ring. The amplifier/speaker is half the system and is likely
more a source of "tone" than the instrument itself.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."