Scott wrote:
On Feb 8, 10:12=A0am, Sebastian Kaliszewski
wrote:
Scott wrote:
=A0 On Feb 7, 11:14=3DA0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
=A0 "Scott" wrote in message
=A0 "Scott" wrote in message
[snip]
=A0 Then why should we all be happy with the single set of
=A0 distortion artifacts that vinyl imposes on us?
=A0 A single set? really? All vinyl playback equipment sounds
=A0 the same?
=A0 The audible distortion that is inherent in vinyl comes from the sam=
e
laws=3D
=A0 =A0of
=A0 physics as applied to a very narrow implementation. =3DA0IME vinyl
playback
=A0 equipment has a very narrowly-defined set of colorations and
distortions.
=A0
=A0 Unfortunately your experience is painfully limited and colored with =
an
=A0 obvious bias. I have offered to put these and other such claims to t=
he
=A0 test under blind conditions but you refuse. That says it all.
Nope. The offer must be reasonable to begin with.
The offer is reasonable.
I could come with an offer 
to all the group as well. Lets perform the
whole test somewhere in Siberia -- it would be about equally hard to get
there for all the participants so this should make things even
All the expenses and visas and customs permits for the equpment are up
to participants
I guess you missed the part where I stated we could find a location
near enough to Arny's home that the travel woould not inconvenient
him. So is this a matter of the offer being unreasonable by me or
misunderstood by you?
But then, what is that *exact* location? And who would be the
'moderator'? How'd you trust her/him? Are you willing to travel near
Arny's to check if moderator is not cheating?
Then, this is just a discussion on a newsgroup. It's perfectly
conceivable for me, that for at least some participants arranging some
physical place for a test, attending the test, bringing up equipment,
it's simply too much hassle just for a great glory of winning an usenet
discussion.
[...]
=A0 That is especially true when you remain willfully
=A0 ignorant on the subject as shown in your description of the various
=A0 masterings of Pink Floyd's DSOTM which was something you cut and
=A0 pasted from wickipedia.
=A0
But what has the origin of quote to the discussed matters? And how it
shows someone's ignorance?
If one were not ignorant on the subject I suspect they would not cut
and paste a whoafully inadequate list of masterings. One would know
better if they were well versed on the subject
I see that simply as an case example of existence of many remasterings
of some title. Besides, this would be just an ignorance about details of
Pink Floyd discography, not about general matters of mastering to begin
with.
=A0
=A0 I know I don't have the technical
=A0 chops to mimic the euphonic colorations of my vinyl rig
=A0 Well, that's because those euphonic colorations are primarily a
creation =3D
=A0 of
=A0 your preferences.
=A0
=A0 Prove it. I've challenged you to do so under blind conditions and yo=
u
=A0 continue to be a no show.
You still did not show in Siberia. And I've challenged you! (Well, just
few paragraphs ago, but if you're serious you should be already in a
plane to Irkutsk )
Do you know the difference between a convenient location and Siberia?
It is much like the difference between a reasonable offer such as the
one I made and an unreasonable offer such as the one you are mockingly
making here. Perhaps you should read my offers more carefully before
equating a location that would not cause Arny any inconvenience with
Siberia.
Well, to nitpick, your offer is incomplete as you didn't propose who and
where (near somebody's home is a bit nebulous) would supervise the test.
Especially that I couldn't see any other active participant of this
newsgroup (there are not too many) who lives close to Arny. So "some
place near his home" and "some moderator" are, for now, rather
theoretical, abstract things/beings.
but on the same note you might want to learn more about the
body of masterings out there before asking why Arny's cut and paste
from wikipedia was evidence of his ignorance on the subject.
I still don't see how using convinient quotation from wikipedia as an
example has anything to do to knowledge about mastering. How not knowing
some Japaneese releases of some particular album shows anyting about
mastering knowledge. It might just show that that particular somebody is
not an expert in 70-ties rock discography.
Then, we know that Arny has at least some well documented audio
engneering backround (being for example an author of published papers),
and from his own account he works with audio recording at least from
time to time. From all I've read you have presented here about yourself,
you don't.
And the real fact is that you both are exchaning ad hominems, but that's
up to moderators (and as I see they act accordingly).
Back to being serious, Arny proposed much more realistic way to perform
the test. Yet you declined (and accused him of dishonesty as an excuse).
His proposition was not in any way more realistic. any meaningful test
needs moderation. I would think anyone with the most basic of
knowledge on such tests would understand this. The test was supposed
to be by ear only. Without moderation we would have no way of knowing
this was what happened. Sorry but no, I don't trust Arny to do the
test on his own by ear alone.
But the same test, if done as I sketeched it, would allow to many other
people to listen for themselves. Are you assuming that all the
participants here are dishonest?
Doing the test at a convenient location
for Arny under moderation is not an unreasonable test.
See few paragraphs above.
But his proposal could be quite easily modified, so none of his alleged
by you dishonesty could play a role. Just put audio samples on the net,
and allow all the interested people to listen for themselves.
Sorry but this doe not force people to make a determination by ear
alone. Your ideas simply do not offer reasonable controls under the
circumstances of the debate.
But it allows the participants to check for themselves. It would help
them to make their own mind about the subject. Of course, it wouldn't be
a formal test, good for publishing results in a form of some journal
paper, but come on, this is just an usenet dicussion not scientific debate.
If the
samples are not whole tunes, but just fragments it would certailnly be a
fair use and would not violate copyrights.
Copyright is not my concern. Insuring the test is done by ear alone
is.
And it'd be really interesting to see who is right.
Would you like to do the test?
Yes. But to see for myself I could just click some tunes in
Firefox/Chrome/Internet Expoler.
Certainly there must be a location near
you that is convenient. not going to ask you to travel to Siberia.
Heck, given the opportunity I'd come visit you and we could do it on
your system. Would that be too unreasonable?
I'm no sure if thraveling to "the other side of the pond" (aka Atlantic
Ocean) and then some would be reasonable to you
Well, its porpably a bit better than Siberia, as there are more
connections here and at least stuff like need to obtain an entry visa is
not an issue (but custom controls still could).
=A0 It's easy to talk the talk. let's see you
=A0 walk the walk.
So, will you do the walk (as described above)?
I will happily participate in the test so long as there is a control
that prevents the testee from using any means other than his or her
own listening abilities to make a determination. so now the offer goes
out to you. Are you going to wlak or talk?
So, are you willing to travel 5-7 thousand miles, thake the records and
equipment via customs, and handle all the expenses?
Yet, if you want to actually demonstrate what you claim and not just win
the debate, you could just demonstrate by putting some files on the net
and ask to determine by ear which comes from a vinyl and which from
digital source. I could then listen, judge for myself and make my mind.
Others would too. And there could be additional benefits for some -- If
for example someone owns a turntable and while (s)he could hear the
distortions on her/his setup, while could not on your provied files, one
could get to know, that their setup could see some improvement, that the
audible distotrions are not inherent in the medium, but just an effect
of their setup.
rgds
\SK
--
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" -- L. Lang
--
http://www.tajga.org -- (some photos from my travels)